The gun control industry has been calling on legislators to “close the gun show loophole” for years. They’re aggravated not to say appalled by the idea that private citizens can buy and sell firearms at [some] gun shows without government supervision (i.e. without an FBI criminal background check). The fact that gun shows account for a statistically insignificant number of firearms used in violent crime, that there’s no scientific evidence proving that the FBI check prevents violent crime, is neither here nor there. Something must be done! In New York, what the gun grabbers can’t do through the legislature they’ve done through sheer intimidation. Check this from the AP [via wsj.com]:
Two major gun show operators have agreed to a set of rules that go beyond state law to thwart illegal sales, Attorney General Eric Schneiderman announced Thursday.
Niagara Frontier Collectors Inc. of Chautauqua County and NEACA Inc. in Saratoga County have agreed to tag guns brought to shows by private sellers to make it possible to monitor their sales and ensure that required criminal background checks are performed.
Notice the term “required criminal background checks.” Again, there is no New York state law requiring private sellers to perform an FBI background check (a.k.a., a NICS check) when selling a firearm to another individual. [NB: Eleven states require background checks for at least some gun show purchases. Click here for the list.]
By the same token, Uncle Sam does not require a NICS check for private sales. [See: second-to-last question at ATF link.] Despite numerous attempts in Congress to “close the gun show loophole,” the federal law mandating a NICS check only applies to Federal Firearms Licensees (a.k.a., licensed gun dealers).
Facts schmacts. AG Schneiderman’s mob have seized control of the media narrative. Can you say over-reach? The media can’t. TTAG contributor and New York firearms lawyer Peter Tilem can:
What the Attorney General is requiring is purely based upon his whim. Rather than seeking to amend the law he intimidates a small business into imposing the restrictions that he and he alone feels are appropriate. And what small business, when faced with the choice of angering the Attorney General of the State where you do business and potentially being sued by the State wouldn’t enter into an agreement that allows you to continue to conduct your business in peace? It’s a case of too much power is vested in one branch of government.
Speaking of small business capitulation, NEACA seems happy enough to spread the AG’s disinformation via their website:
New York State law requires that a National Instant Criminal Background check must be completed prior to all firearms sales or transfers, including sales or transfers of rifles or shotguns. The sale or transfer of a firearm, rifle or shotgun at a Gun Show without first conducting a Background Check is a crime.
The Associated Press singularly fails to mention the reason why millions of Americans don’t want the State or the feds monitoring private firearms sales: fears of government registration leading to confiscation.
The show operators will post signs making clear that instant background checks are required for all sales and will make dealers available to perform them. They also will limit access doors to shows and monitor parking lots to deter sales to people trying to skirt background checks.
“Gun violence is an epidemic and my office is working with gun show operators to create simple guidelines to ensure that these deadly weapons don’t make it into the hands of felons, terrorists, the dangerously mentally ill and others that could not pass a background check,” Schneiderman said.
He said his office will work with other gun show operators individually to create more oversight of the gun-purchasing process but would like to see New York become the first state in the nation with uniform, statewide procedures.
Gun rights advocates have been worrying about the possibility of “under-the-radar” gun control since The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence claimed President Obama promised them this approach. (A statement the Campaign later retracted.) The real threat is “back door” gun control, via bureaucratic arm twisting.
A member of TTAG’s Armed Intelligentsia who emailed me a link to the AP story called for a boycott of the New York gun shows to protest to their acquiescence to the NY AG’s demands. “Schneiderman nailed some illegal sales and used that as leverage,” he wrote. “Regardless of what some bad apples do, our rights are non-negotiable.”
We shall see.
Gun shows are “victim disarmament zones”, since they prohibit CCW.
Unless you’re an armed thug employed by the government….
Being armed and working for the government doesn’t necessarily make one a thug.
Let’s see….Blindly doing as told by their boss, check. Rampant corruption, check. Harassing and intimidating people into doing what you what, check. Threat of violence for disobeying them, check. Demands you pay them money for “protection” from them, check. Get’s violent at the notion of people standing up for themselves and saying “No” to them, check.
Sounds just like a gang / mob thug to me. It’s absurd that people think that just because a group of octogenarian sociopaths says it’s OK for them to act this way that it’s OK, but if others without the approval of those ancient psychopaths does the same exact thing it’s a “horrible crime”.
I’m sorry, but I have to agree with the “no concealed carry inside the gun show” rules. Not necessarily by law, but at the least by common consensus. Some people recommend that when you’re practicing your draw, cleaning your gun, etc. that you not just unload the gun, but place the ammo in a completely different room. I kinda see this rule as an extension of that.
I cannot think of a more perfect storm for an AD with injury or loss of life than a gun show. Gun shows (at least near me) are usually incredibly densely packed, dance-floor packed, with people, so the potential for collateral damage is astronomically high. Combine that with people’s desire to show their gun, whether to a dealer or to potential buyer, or just to another show-goer, and then add in the fact that while you or I wouldn’t be stupid enough to draw our concealed weapon to show it off, there’s always going to be those that think they’re “good enough” or “safe enough” to do it. It only takes one of them to be wrong.
There are higher population or population density events than gun shows (sporting events, nightclubs, airports), though not many. There are likewise locations with a greater likelihood of someone removing their weapon from its location (y’know, like at the range or a competition). But I can’t think of anywhere where those two occasions (potentially) intersect more than at a gun show.
For myself, I am happy in the knowledge that everyone in the building is disarmed (*in theory) during the duration of their stay inside. How many times have we seen people complaining about getting lasered at the gun show? I’m content in the knowledge that the yahoo pointing the Glock Fo-tay at me from across the room is at least doing so with an unloaded weapon.
*In theory: At my local gun shows, there are no metal detectors. There is an FHP trooper standing at the door asking if you have any guns or ammunition on you. So theoretically, someone could carry a well-concealed gun into the show. The reason I’m not concerned about that guy is that the guy who is going to carry something in deeply concealed is also the least likely to pull it out in the show for any but the most dire of reasons. For instance, if I was to carry concealed into a show (I haven’t) and for some reason wanted to have my gun out (to test fit a holster, say), I would remove myself to the parking lot (or at least the restroom) to remove and unload the gun before going back inside.
+1 Matt.
I have carried into them anyway and I’ll continue to do, rules or not. I’m not worried about needing it inside the gun show, I’m worried about needing it outside the gun show on the way to the parking lot since our Orlando gun show is held in a less-than-ideal part of town. Because those FHP officers are not going to be escorting me to my car I need to look out for myself.
Now the risk of something happening on the way to the car is admittedly pretty low but it’s a risk that I try to be prepared for. Everything is low risk until it happens to you and there are documented cases of armed robbers taking recently purchased guns from people on their way out of shows and shops.
While it may sound good that you think a person should not carry a concealed weapon at a gun show, it serves no practical purpose. First, people that legally carry concealed are the “cream of the crop” of law abiding citizens. These people present no threat to the public, rather they lessen the posssibility of violence inside the venue. These people have gone through background checks and possibly fingerprinting to ensure they are not criminals. To comply with this rule makes as much sense as having gun free zones. This only encourages the lawless to try something.
Second, The threat inside is not a bad as the threat when a person leaves place where the show is being held. As you said about the large numbers of people inside the show, there would have to be parking for the people inside. It may be a large parking lot at an old shoppong center, an armory, a flea market, or a civic center. For those people that don’t want to legally buy firearms or go by any other laws, what better way to pick one up. Find a person either by himself or with his wife or girfriend or family walking to or from the gunshow with a firearm and no way to protect himself from a robbery. These shows do not have security protection for people to and from their vehicles. It is not practicle. But people going to gun shows will be carrying firearms and or large amounts money to purchase or trade their goods. What better way to embarrass the gun people than to have “open season” declared on them by not being able to defend themselves against an attack. What you propose as being a good thing only punishes the law abiding.
Just one reason why I don’t go to gun shows anywhere they don’t allow me to carry inside the show. The last one I went to had an unlighted parking lot and no security guards. I left when they told me I had to leave my firearm in the car!!
Randy: Your entire first paragraph is completely irrelevant to my point. I made no comments whatsoever about the possibility of gun crime inside the show. My point was about gun stupidity, i.e. accidental discharges. Please go back and read my second and third paragraphs again. Your comments about “cream of the crop” and “no threat” are better directed at anti’s who want to keep concealed carry out of a movie theatre, or a shopping mall.
As to your second point, I’m basically in agreement with you, viz.: my entire final paragraph. If you want to carry, well-concealed, that’s your choice, and one I support. I hope that your forethought and depth of concealment would also be such that you would not decide it was OK to pull your gun out inside the show.
I guess the point I’m getting to is that if someone is going to take the thought to purposely ignore the rules, I’d think they would also have the intelligence not to haul it out in public. However, there are an awful lot of people (some I’m personally acquainted with) who, without that mental hurdle of carrying “against the rules” would do so, because they could, and some of those nimrods (again, I’m personally acquainted with people like this) would not exhibit the intelligence to not haul it out in a room absolutely packed with people, because they think they’re “safe enough.” I wouldn’t want to be in the same zip code of that guy when his elbow got jostled as he was drawing (or for that matter, reholstering) his weapon.
I am perfectly comfortable with using “no cc in the gun show” rules as a way to weed out the riffraff. If that’s elitist or wrong, so be it. I draw a corollary to the sign on the doors of some local gun shops around here, that read “Absolutely no loaded guns or magazines allowed inside.” When I was new to guns, I heeded that sign, and dutifully unloaded my carry weapon (and its magazine) in the car before going inside. As I spent time there and learned more about guns and gun culture, I came to realize that the sign didn’t apply to me. They had no issues whatsoever with me carrying concealed into their store, as long as it stayed concealed. But the sign helps to protect them from the ignorant and naive, a group of which I had been a member not so many months before.
Does anybody have any statistics of any shootings or killings ever occurring at a gun show. If not then your analogy Matt in Florida is way off base. Unless there has been an incident of somebody drawing their weapons or discharging their weapon at a gun show I see no problem with having your ammo in the same room with your weapon you are either selling to potential customers or showing to a wide variety of people. Would you sell a deadly weapon such as a car or a truck without any gas or diesel fuel in the fuel tank. I think not.
Mike88: To find statistics that speak to what you ask, you’d have to go back to when loaded/concealed weapons were still permitted at gun shows. I don’t know when that was. I’ve only been a real “person of the gun” for the last couple years. Can someone who’s been around for (a whole lot) longer clue me in? When was the last time you remember going to a gun show where they didn’t prohibit concealed (or for that matter, open) carry of loaded weapons? Were guns as mainstream popular back then? Were the gun shows shoulder-to-shoulder crowded like they are now? I’d bet not, though I’m willing to be mistaken.
I can’t tell whether you thought I was advocating that ammo shouldn’t be sold in the same room as guns at a gun show. If you did, let me assure you that was not where I was going. I was drawing an analogy to safe training practices. If you did not, well, then nevermind. 🙂
As far as flawed analogies go, the “car without gas in the tank” doesn’t really fly. You can test drive a car, for which you need gas, but most gun shows (every one I’ve ever been to) neither have the facilities nor afford you the opportunity to “test drive” the gun before you buy it. Taking your analogy to its extreme, cars on the lot have gas in the tank, if only a little. Are you advocating that guns at the gun show should all have a couple rounds in them so you can try them out? Don’t get mad at me, this entire paragraph was half-joking.
I am genuinely interested in the info in para. 1, though.
Matt, I’ve been going to gun shows since the very early 70’s. To the best of my memory there was always somebody at the doors checking to make sure that the guns coming in weren’t loaded.
In those days very few states allowed shall issue style permits and most of us commoners had no legal way to carry concealed.
Girly-man Matt ( from your picture ), at gun shows in Arizona, a man at the door puts a loop through the working part so the gun cannot be fired. This is done after checking to see that the weapon is unloaded.
You seem to have an awful fear of gun shows, and horrific violence there. There are armed guards there, plus, a few people with guns that can lock and load in a hurry.
A guy trying to start something at one would have to be a bigger nut than Adolph Hitler.
Get real.
Hey look, someone else who didn’t actually read what I wrote. I made no mention of horrific gun violence, nor of someone “trying to start something.” My post was about stupidity and ignorance, not malice. But then, clearly, so was yours.
“Gun violence is an epidemic…? Mostly in places where non-criminals are prohibited from being lawfully armed but still doesn’t compare with the statistics for motor vehicle violence.
“Gun violence is an epidemic…” I’d like Mr. Schneiderman to look at the declining numbers on the BJS charts Farago referred to, then tell us how FEW people can be killed with firearms before it’s no longer an”epidemic”?
You’re exactly right. Every state that has a concealed carry law has enjoyed a decrease of violent crime, not only gun crimes, since implemented. The reduction was evident even where there had been a loss of police officers. Only this year has there been an increase of violent crime. It spiked 18% this year! Why you might ask? Look to cities that have drug problems and or flash mobs. Most of them have strict gun control laws and are probably controlled by Dems.
Storm didn’t do enough to that sh@#hole.
Exactly…..
If they are that worried about then they need to….move to another country!!!!
As far as the gun shows going along with the obviously illegal crap they need to have their doors slammed shut by a big ass Pro 2A boycot!!
You can add Nebraska to the list of states that require a background check for private sales of handguns. The buyer must show the seller a certificate, obtained from the county sheriff, that shows the buyer has passed a background check. A local police chief is in trouble for loaning a handgun to his girl friend without her having a certificate.
Word usage nitpick: “enervate” means to drain of energy, not “irritate” and certainly not “energize.” A little wishful thinking there, huh?
(“Enervate” on the word blog Lexicide — http://lexicide.com/?p=190)
Text amended. Thanks.
I don’t see the big deal. Having had to live under these rules in CT, it has not stopped anyone from doing any transactions. All of our gun shows are run that way including making sure firearms are cleared before entering the show. As long as its free and remains free it is 15min of paper work or less considering in CT you need to get a sales authorization number. At a local public range usually on the weekends, two guys show up, one guy wants to make sure its a shooter before he buys, he gives it a go, they do the paper work make the phone call and everyone moves on.
Rights aside, registation aside, there are bigger and better battles to fight. This “loop hole” is an excuse removal. We all know it does and means nothing so let them have it and use the energy on other issues. They can live in their fantasy that it means something. I rather have the community police itself than for this AG to get a law passed. Remember, this is being asked at gun shows, nothing stops private sales outside of the gun show — so it is all make believe — let them have it.
We want a fight, lets fight the fact that our permits are not good in every state. Lets fight the stupidity of having people go to jail for bringing a gun to an airport. People make mistakes, fine them $500 and escort them off the airport so they loose their flight — that is enough to stop them from doing that again.
Umm, no.
I get your point about bigger issues but the gov’t has no business in what I do with my personal property. The bigger issues cannot be dealt with until the fundamentals are fixed first.
You like the law in CT? Fine. But don’t push for it to be adopted everywhere else. I like it the way it is here and I’ll fight to keep it that way.
And by the way, if you “give” them something we get nothing in return. They want to ban “gunshow loopholes”? I might do a deal if they undo the ’86 machine gun ban and deregulate silencers in exchange.
Since that’ll never happen: no deal.
Boycott the gun shows that are willing to toss freedom down the toilet of the liberal elite. If these ridiculous laws are passed and people are arrested the jury can use jury nullification to throw out the case. Give an inch they will take a mile, stand up for the constitution always!
Regarding whether NY state law requires a background check for private-party transfers at gun shows…
I imagine they’re thinking of this (N.Y. GBS. LAW § 897 (1)):
A national instant criminal background check shall be conducted and no person shall sell or transfer a firearm, rifle or shotgun at a gun show, except in accordance with the provisions of 18 U.S.C. 922(t).
Of course, 18 USC 922(t) only refers to transfers from FFLs to persons who are not FFLs. If the transferror is not an FFL, 922(t) doesn’t apply to the transfer.
I guess the question is…
a) if 922(t) doesn’t apply to the transfer, can the transfer possibly be made “in accordance with” 922(t)?
or…
b) if 922(t) doesn’t apply to the transfer, is the transfer automatically “in accordance with” 922(t)?
IANAL, and I don’t know if “in accordance with” is synonymous with “not violating”.
Not surprised. living in a Police state like NY gun owners get tired of the harassment.
So there is not law on the books, yet because the AG wants it he gets it?? WTH???
Thank god for Schneiderman. He’s saved us all. He should be rewarded with a nice hooker, just like his AG predecessor Eliot Spitzer.
The link says that Connecticut requires a background check (actually a call to the Dept of Public Safety, not NICS) for all private party gun sales. If they check the state statutes I believe they will find that using the state form and calling for approval does not apply to private sales of shotguns and rifles.
NYS is a joke……People will just go to PA for Gun Shows and forget NY. They tax and make a law for everything from cradle to grave. They think that having laws invented by a liberal politician will somehow make things better. NY politicians are always trying to attach a solution to a problem that has nothing to do with the problem and passing it off as good social science, WHY??…..They suffer from Liberalism. Liberalism is a disease because the liberal agenda’s principles violate the rules of ordered liberty, their most determined efforts to realize its visionary fantasies inevitably fall short. Yet, despite all the evidence against it, the modern liberal mind believes his agenda is good social science. It is, in fact, bad science fiction. In spite of all the data that shows their visionary fantasies are all failures, they persist in this agenda, despite its madness, and therefore fall under the old saying insanity is doing the same things over and over again expecting different results. Moreover the liberal always has scapegoats, far flung theories, distortions and above all LYING, to prop up and keep their mindless fantasies moving, and when the modern liberal mind whines about imaginary victims, rages against imaginary villains, speaks of conspiracies and credulous statements seeks above all else to run the lives of persons competent to run their own lives, the neurosis of the liberal mind becomes painfully obvious. Liberalism IS a disease, common sense is the cure. But as Ron White the comedian says……there ain’t no fixin STUPID in this case the same applies……………… There ain’t no fixin liberalism
As a great science fiction writer once wrote: “The most dangerous person in the world is a liberal vigilante!!!”
Seems to me the last ones in the world to bow down to this AG should be gun show companies. What a way to turn on all the people that enjoy the shows for the profit of the show owner. There are times when I’m very happy to live in VT, best gun laws in the country.
“Gun violence is an epidemic…”
Not in my neighborhood. Gun violence here is incredibly rare. And the very few in over 20-years have been suicides or sexual indiscretion disputes. And that says it all. It’s the neighborhood stupid!
J.
i can’t speak to every state, but the link to “states [that] require background checks for at least some gun show purchases” is a little inaccurate for Maryland: gun shows aren’t required to do background checks for only handgun purchases, but rather, for any “regulated firearm.”
Gun violence is an epidemic where drug trafficking, hookers, pimps, homeless, drug houses and other assorted shit heads hang out. Sorry, but mostly NIMBY.
I kinda knew this would happen, the gloves came off when POTUS got reelected. Now, Bloomers and other every left wing anti-gun nut is going to sign bills and sue in court to restrict the 2nd amd.
When I emailed them with my displeasure they said it was part of some business law from 2000. I think they caved to politics A DECADE ago.
I think out A G Holder is a hypocrital crazy man. Maybe he could arm the drug cartels and pay them to “fix things” in the Middle East.
We could fund one way trips and refresh their weaponry!
The movie theater in Aurora, Colorado had a no guns allowed sign. Why didn’t the orange-haired bozo read the signs?
Maryland also likes to arm-twist laws that don’t exist. Our AG and State Police have been pressuring FFL’s to make ammo registries to catch people buying firearms in regulated calibers based on the regulated firearms list as a defacto registration scheme. Many stores including some in my county do this. The MSP loves to fish and god forbid you buy a regulated caliber and don’t own said firearm on their registration list. Already happened where someone did this and they sent a SWAT team to a guy’s house at 1 in the morning because he bought ammo at a gun store participating in this program.
I think that it would be instructive to Mr. Schneiderman to contact the treason department in Washington, run by Eric Holder, and see how one goes about getting guns to terrorists, as in Mexico, where the people are certainly terrorized every day.
The two companies that have caved in to the terrorist in Albany have only hurt their businesses, and will probably be boycotted by customers who do not want the government breathing down their necks.
Years ago, when the government wanted the gun manufacturers to start stamping the guns with the teeny-weeny I.D. numbers, an impossible job, Smith and Wesson went along with them, so, I decided to never buy an S and W gun again.
Later, S and W decided that they were wrong, but, that did not mollify me, as I saw that there were people in place there who were willing to give in, with another step to destroying the Second Amendment.
There many other quality gun makers out there.
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