In a true example of the old saying, “be careful what you wish for,” an elderly Ohio woman has been accused of fatally shooting a man in the groin, which is hard to type without clenching up and making a face, but I digress. What makes this story uncomfortably strange, yes, aside from the junk shot, is the incident allegedly occurred while she was joking with the victim and he requested she take the shot. I haven’t had nearly enough coffee for this story, but I’ll try to push forward.
The shooting took place at an apartment building in Cincinnati, Ohio, on October 20. Seventy-seven-year-old Kathleen Geiger is accused of shooting Arthur Osborne, 58, once in the groin and has been charged with recklessly causing Osborne’s death according to a Hamilton County Municipal Court affidavit.
At first glance, this seems like a terrible tragedy, and it is, but peeling back the layers on this one, there are some elementary lessons to be learned here and some well-deserved mockery, which I will get to.
According to Geiger, she and the victim “were engaged in harmless banter when he jokingly requested she shoot him…The defendant, believing her firearm was empty, pointed the weapon at Osborne and pulled the trigger,” police wrote in the sworn statement.
Geiger ultimately called 911 and tried to provide aid, which I’m sure you guys with a sense of humor will have some fun with. Unfortunately, the damage was done, and with the most basic of gun-handling directives disregarded, Arthur Osborne was pronounced dead at the scene.
FOX19 NOW legal advisor Mark Krumbein says that Geiger calling 911 and trying to provide aid could be positive for her case.
“I think that’s a positive for her that she stayed there, tried to provide aid, called 911, and cooperated with the police, apparently, because they have her statement…So, I would say that those are all positives for her,” Krumbein explained.
Cincinnati police took Geiger into custody and transported her to the Hamilton County jail where she was held overnight without bond until a brief hearing Monday morning.
At the arraignment, prosecutors stated that her not believing the gun was loaded was “no excuse,” a sentiment I think all responsible gun owners will agree with.
“Everyone who possesses a firearm has a responsibility to do it responsibly. You never point a firearm at anything and pull the trigger unless you intend to destroy it. The defendant pointed a firearm at someone and pulled the trigger, resulting in their death,” one prosecutor said.
The case goes before a grand jury for possible indictment on October 31st. A grand jury could elect to proceed with a more serious charge like murder or a lesser charge like negligent homicide, according to Krumbein.
A judge ordered Geiger to be held on $10,000 bond.
I feel like now would be a great time to play the role of Captain Obvious because, while law-abiding responsible gun owners have these rules engrained in their frontal lobe, it is obvious that there are people out there who can’t understand a few simple rules.
1. Treat every gun as if it is loaded. You’re sure it’s unloaded, you say? It’s still loaded! Treat firearms with respect. My fiance noticed a pattern early on when we visited gun stores. The guy behind the counter would check the chamber of a gun before handing me a gun to look at. Once in my hands, I checked it as well. Before handing it back, I checked again. Upon receiving it back, the employee checked it one last time before putting it back on the display. If this seems like a bit of a redundant ritual, it is, but it is a ritual that ensures accidents like this don’t occur, so live it!
2. Keep your gun pointed in a safe direction. Again, obvious. Come on. You never point a gun at anything you do not intend to destroy. How hard is this? It’s not a game. It certainly isn’t a joke. People who point guns at others are not going to find any compassion from me. Full stop. This is stupid and it really works me up because it is so incredibly easy to avoid tragedy and yet people still don’t take it seriously.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire. Sure, seems simple enough, but when you’ve already obliterated rules 1 and 2, well, you see where this is going.
4. Be certain of your target and what is beyond it.
Morons and guns don’t mix. Joking around with guns is not funny. Sure, asking someone to shoot you in the jewels is completely devoid of reason, but actually doing it makes you the big winner of my idiot with a gun award.
In a first for stories like this, the word ‘Florida’ does not appear. Remarkable.
They don’t say where either was born. Ohio is dacian country. So maybe Ohio man should be a thing, also.
Hey, I, er, resemble that remark?
No offense intended, but you’ve got a lot of sketchy neighbors.
(chuckle)
We once lived about 2 miles outside of town, just past a set of RR tracks, with the county landfill nearby on the other side of the road. My wife delighted in telling new acquaintances that we lived on the wrong side of the tracks, across from the dump.
I’ve often thought why not go for the “junk” shot, instead of center mass. This is a serious major artery area that will dump the blood supply quickly, as was evidenced by this story.
Been SOP for anyone apparently wearing body armor for over a decade with MP’s anywhere I was assigned. No idea how long with the Marines but I know they taught circa 2015.
I first encountered it in training courses around 2012.
The term “pelvic girdle” will forever be on my mind.
I’ve had instructors taught center mass and move down if you hear steel and others that taught to go right for the “pelvic girdle” first because your shots will just work their way up to center mass anyhow.
Nitpicking over which may be better seems pointless but I will say it was quite a shock the first time I ran a course full of 3D targets wearing shirts and one of them went “PING!!” and I had to change my approach. Mixed in plates has been favorite set up ever since.
Ok that is way cooler than the heavy jackets and cheap tac vests and plate carriers we used to put on the targets for the adjust to a new variable situations.
I saw a video long ago of Massad Ayoob advising that if you are holding someone with your pistol at “low ready” you should have the muzzle targeting their groin area.
His reasoning, paraphrased: Tough guys believe they can survive being shot, but no tough guy wants to get his dick shot off.
I’ve heard some bodybuilder types reckon their muscles could stop a .38. None want to put their claim to the test.
Good way to lose their gains (or more) and the shooter to lose their freedom.
Since no one said it…Play Stupid Games Win Stupid Prizes. The ND makes as much sense as the morons hoping the shop till you drop menendez brothers skate their life sentences.
On the other hand a former NASCAR/INDY Driver drives for TRUMP/VANCE 2024…connect the h…
h ttps://youtube.com/watch?v=pzM_gD_gO_I&feature=shared
RE: “1. Treat every gun as if it is loaded. You’re sure it’s unloaded, you say? It’s still loaded! Treat firearms with respect. My fiance noticed a pattern early on when we visited gun stores. The guy behind the counter would check the chamber of a gun before handing me a gun to look at. Once in my hands, I checked it as well. Before handing it back, I checked again. Upon receiving it back, the employee checked it one last time before putting it back on the display. If this seems like a bit of a redundant ritual, it is, but it is a ritual that ensures accidents like this don’t occur, so live it!”
Failure to perform the ritual indicates someone is an accident waiting to happen. A firearm ignorant fukhead is anyone who barks at performing the ritual.
Stupid is as stupid does.
I have to wonder if maybe the lady petitioned the man for some action, he rebuffed her, and then she punished him for rebuffing her.
I was thinking the opposite/dude though the old gal sure to be desperate to get some – and he ignored/forgot the women be crazy (and don’t chase 77yr old women that look like they are 95).
She could’ve used some Quick-Clot.
“…but peeling back the layers…”
I first read that as “…peeing…” …
Yamhill County Judges Ladd Wiles and Cynthia Easterday would make an exemption for 12 gauge shotguns that are only loaded with “harmless buckshot.”. Unfortunately; there are many TactiCoolFools who post on TTAG who would agree with these hopliphobic imbeciles. They even allowed a marijuana bootlegger who was misrepresented as a “gun expert” to testify that buckshot are “just rolling along” after a few yards. This criminal also testified that you can’t fire slugs out of a shotgun that is equipped with a choke. “The barrel will explode, just like happens to Elmer Fudd when Bugs Bunny sticks a carrot in the muzzle of his shotgun.”. Anyone who’s actually read the label on a box of Remington Sluggers will notice that they are “safe to shoot through any choke.”
As a result of this blatantly perjured testimony, my marijuana bootlegging tenant was given a free pass for shooting two rounds from a 12 gauge shotgun that was loaded with slugs. He misses by only ten feet from a range of only 100 to 175 yards. (There was uncertainty about where he was standing when he fired the shotgun.).
I expect that many of the TactiCoolFools who post on this website will argue that these slugs had lost so much velocity that they were no longer dangerous. If you do comment, please post your calculations of aerodynamic drag integrated over distance.
“aerodynamic drag integrated over distance.”
You mean…
“aerodynamic drag over distance”
Aerodynamic drag is integrated over the aerodynamic surface (i.e. the surface of the slug, bullet, object, etc…), not integrated over distance.
No one will be able to post “calculations of aerodynamic drag integrated over distance”.
The formula is:
D=Cd*ρ*V²*A/2
Where:
“Cd” = the drag coefficient
“A” = the reference area (i.e. the surface area of the shotgun slug)
“V” = (1/2) the velocity (of the slug)
i.e. … to clarify…. Drag (D) is equal to the drag coefficient (Cd) times the density rho (ρ) times half of the velocity (V) squared times the reference area A.
Basically, you will need to calculate from firing to when the slug stops, at any point along the distance traveled (its going to be different for each point calculated) to determine true drag on the slug.
Basically: Drag depends on the density of the air, the square of the velocity, the air’s viscosity and compressibility, the size and shape of the slug, and the slug inclination (i.e. its angle meeting the air flow) to the air flow across it.
So ya get all that together and you can accurately calculate drag.
There is also a solution from the energy aspect but its a lot more variables and too much for the comments section to go into.
Actually, calculating residual kinetic energy at distance and then velocity is much easier if one evaluates the equation for residual kinetic energy over distance then calculates velocity at any particular distance from the residual energy at that distance. The trick is that while
KE=1/2M x V^2,
KE=Force x Distance.
Since the force from aerodynamic drag is proportional to velocity squared, the drag force is also directly proportional to the residual kinetic energy at any particular distance. As a result, it is a simple exponential decay function.
Few bullet manufacturers publish data on the drag coefficient of their products for various velocities. In most cases, their published data on drag coefficient or ballistic coefficient are for the anticipated muzzle velocity. I am aware of no manufacturers of slugs who publish detailed data for various velocities. Most modern on line ballistics calculators now employ “Form Factors” that enable an approximation of drag coefficient verses velocity.
For our discussion of shotguns, I’d refer people to this online ballistics calculator for round ball projectiles from the Connecticut Muzzle Loader Society.
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/rbballistics/web_apps/rb_ballistics.html
While a spherical projectile doesn’t have the same drag coefficient as a shotgun slugs, the ballistic coefficient is comparable.
Try running the program for a .69 caliber round ball which is the same caliber as most slugs for 12 gauge shotguns. You will discover that residual energy decreases by about half for every hundred yards traveled and that the residual velocity decreased by about half for every two hundred yards traveled.
Of course few people seem to understand that even low velocity projectiles can be lethal. A lot of people die each year from randomly fired bullets that fall out of the sky. Such bullets are likely to impact the skull and penetrate to the brain. Such incidents are most common in Islamic countries where men often demonstrate how macho or angry they are by expending the entire magazine of an AK-47 or SKS by firing into the air. Depending on the exact angle of elevation not to mention geographic elevation, the terminal velocity of the bullets returning to Earth is about 200 to 300 feet per second. Amazingly to many TactiCoolFools who are proud graduates of the Alec Baldwin school of gun safety, these low velocity bullets can and often do penetrate human skulls and kill people deader than a door nail.
Why not measure velocity at whatever distance? That ain’t that hard to do these days.
Shield the chronograph. Keep shooting til you get a reading(s).
Or if you are really at long range, take several readings at distances (1, 2, 3 …), load the results into a good spreadsheet and get an empirical exponential equation from that?
Not likely round ball and slug of given caliber have equal mass anyway.
Excellent point.
Difficult to do with shotgun projectiles.
Fortunately; with today’s sophisticated ballistics programs, it isn’t necessary.
“Difficult to do with shotgun projectiles.”
Lol, disagree. Just keep shooting, you will get lucky.
“Fortunately; with today’s sophisticated ballistics programs, it isn’t necessary.”
Trust, but verify. Factory claims of muzzle velocity are not always accurate, for example.
On buckshot: a 50gr pellet dropped from a helicopter will reach terminal velocity. I doubt that would be lethal. A 1 oz slug probably would be. That said, 34⁰ (iirc, maybe 38⁰?) muzzle elevation is claimed to give max range for rifle bullets at sea level – I would guess the end velocity for 00 buck would be higher than true terminal velocity with that barrel elevation, and that 00 buck might easily be lethal at max range.
“Actually, calculating residual kinetic energy at distance and then velocity is much easier if one evaluates the equation for residual kinetic energy over distance then calculates velocity at any particular distance from the residual energy at that distance. The trick is that while
KE=1/2M x V^2,
KE=Force x Distance.
Since the force from aerodynamic drag is proportional to velocity squared, the drag force is also directly proportional to the residual kinetic energy at any particular distance. As a result, it is a simple exponential decay function.”
no.
but you didn’t ask for that, you asked for aerodynamic drag. using energy aspect aerodynamic drag can be calculated but not as you describe. you are (almost) describing decay of velocity energy due to aerodynamic drag, not aerodynamic drag – they are not the same thing.
Nope!
Actually I was addressing the issue of velocity and impact energy verses range. The entire issue is weather or not a shotgun projectile retains enough velocity and kinetic energy to be lethal at ranges from 100 to 200 yards. All of your flatulence about “pressure” doesn’t address that issue. You have not even attempted to calculate projectile velocity or energy verses range. All you’ve done is obfuscate and flatulate in an ad hominem attack.
In order to calculate remaining energy at various ranges, you must INTEGRATE (a term from CALCULUS. You did take at least first semester calculus?) the drag FORCE applied to the projectile over distance. You can then calculate remaining velocity:
(KEx2)^1/2.
The calculation is actually complicated by the fact that the drag coefficient varies with velocity. A simple EXPONENTIAL DECAY function simply yields a reasonably close approximation. Any truly accurate calculation requires evaluating a second order DIFFERENTIAL EQUATION that can not be solved analytically. Numerical INTEGRATION is thus required. This is what our modern, online ballistic calculators do for us.
Unfortunately; no one has such a calculator for shotgun slugs. Fortunately; the Connecticut Muzzle Loaders do have such an online calculator that works great for buckshot and offers a reasonable approximation for slugs.
The bottom line is that 12 gauge shotgun slugs (Breneke or Foster) can be lethal out to a mile away. Even “harmless buckshot” can be lethal out to about a quarter mile.
“Actually I was addressing the issue of velocity and impact energy verses range. ”
Then why did you ask for aerodynamic drag and keep referencing it as aerodynamic drag?
Make up your mind. Are you looking for aerodynamic drag or “velocity and impact energy verses range”?
In your original post to which I started replying you said:
““calculations of aerodynamic drag integrated over distance””
But that wasn’t correct because, as I outlined for you, aerodynamic drag is integrated over the aerodynamic surface (i.e. the surface of the slug, bullet, object, etc…), not integrated over distance. And ‘aerodynamic drag’ (as you posted it) is what I’ve been replying for, but now suddenly its “velocity and impact energy verses range” you were looking for.
You are confusing drag force with the pressure on the projectile that results from aerodynamic drag. Calculating the pressure on each point of the surface of the projectile, including the base of the projectile that is subjected to negative pressure (near vacuum) then integrating over the surface area of the projectile is far beyond the scope of this discussion. Such analysis is usually estimated then refined by data from wind tunnel testing. All that is necessary for this discussion is to know the effective frontal area of the projectile and the drag coefficient. The caveat is that the drag coefficient varies with velocity.
nothing has been confused.
pressure on the projectile moving through air IS aerodynamic drag, its not two separate things.
The formula is:
D=Cd*ρ*V²*A/2
Pressure is force per unit area. That is why pressure is given in units of pounds per square inch, or Newtons per square meter.
“Pressure is force per unit area. ”
yes. but the collective pressure force acting on the projectile IS aerodynamic drag. its not two separate things as you posit.
“Pressure is force per unit area. That is why pressure is given in units of pounds per square inch, or Newtons per square meter.”
no, this is not “why pressure is given in units of pounds per square inch, or Newtons per square meter.”
we use Newtons as a unit of measure for ‘something’, not because ‘something’ exists.
did you want ‘pressure’ or aerodynamic drag? you asked for aerodynamic drag. the formula is as I previously stated. if you want to do it in terms of energy only I’ll post the formulas you need, there are 20’ish.
And also, if you want to do it in terms of aerodynamic drag force, the formula is…
Fad = 0.5 · Cd · A · pair · (v – vwind)²
where:
Fad [N] = aerodynamic drag force
Cd [-] = aerodynamic drag coefficient (for the shotgun slug this is 0.47, forgot to mention that previously – sorry bout that)
A [m2] = maximum cross-section area of the slug
ρair [kg/m3] = air density (equal to 1.202
kg/ m3 for dry air at 20 °C and 101.325 kPa – note: this is rho ‘air’ representing air density, the word press comments section doesn’t let it be presented in its proper form so it appears as the word ‘pair’)
v [m/s] = slug velocity
vwind [m/s] = wind velocity
If its assumed there is no wind, the formula becomes …
Fad = 0.5 · Cd · A · ρair · v²
but if you just want the aerodynamic drag effect like you asked for originally by just stating ‘aerodynamic drag’ and not the force the formula is (as stated before)
D=Cd*ρ*V²*A/2
clarification for :
“no, this is not “why pressure is given in units of pounds per square inch, or Newtons per square meter.”
we use Newtons as a unit of measure for ‘something’, not because ‘something’ exists.”
you stated:
“Pressure is force per unit area. That is why pressure is given in units of pounds per square inch, or Newtons per square meter.”
Pressure is the force per unit perpendicular area over which the force is applied, not per unit area but rather unit perpendicular area.
Or in other words …pressure is the force per unit area perpendicular to the force, over which the force acts. Not “Pressure is force per unit area”
Or, another way of saying it is … Pressure is the force applied perpendicular to the surface of an object per unit area over which that force is distributed.
also…
Your statement posits that “Pressure is force per unit area” is the reason why “pressure is given in units of pounds per square inch, or Newtons per square meter.””
That’s not the reason at all. qualifying or measurement units define the ‘something’ effect we can ‘measure’. They are not the reason the ‘something’ exists.
also…. you also (apparently unknowing) reference pressure in terms of something known as ‘gauge pressure’ (no, not like an air pressure gauge) which is the pressure relative to the ambient pressure. Its got nothing to do with aerodynamic drag like you asked for. You mix this up with pressure applied to a ‘surface’ in some ‘unit’ (on the slug) and this is not relative to the ambient pressure but rather pressure existing in its self exerting upon and relative to the surface of ‘something’ (i.e. the slug).
Basically; You are intermixing different concepts that have different meanings and relativity and then saying ‘this is the answer’ for a different concept – ya can’t do that. Its like saying 1 + banana = 4
clarification for: “yes. but the collective pressure force acting on the projectile IS aerodynamic drag. its not two separate things as you posit.”
OK, I was trying to keep my answer short. but it looks like that’s not going to be possible as you keep intermixing concepts and switching back and forth as if they are all relative. So I gave my answers in different posts where I thought they were more relational to what you were posting at the time. But my reply (for clarification) answer ‘yes’ was based upon a cherry pick “Pressure is force per unit area.” because you almost got it.
The collective pressure force (not force per unit area – but “force per unit area ” is wrong anyway and I told why in another post reply) acting on the projectile IS aerodynamic drag (like you originally asked for). its not two separate things (for aerodynamic drag as you originally asked for) as you posit.
Which “aerodynamic drag” do you want? aerodynamic drag effect (like you originally asked for by just stating ‘aerodynamic drag’ or ‘aerodynamic drag force’? If you want the force I gave the equation for it in another post reply. If you want ‘aerodynamic drag effect’ I also gave this equation with D=Cd*ρ*V²*A/2
Wrong!!!!!
Wrong!
Obviously, I am getting frustrated.
What we have here is a failure to communicate.
I’ll refer you to someone else who might be able to explain it to you.
https://byjus.com/physics/difference-between-force-and-pressure/#:~:text=Force%20is%20a%20vector%20quantity,does%20not%20have%20a%20direction.
oh gee whiz…another Google U ‘physicist’.
your link is not describing aerodynamic drag in terms of energy or not in terms of energy.
your link is describing the difference between force and pressure, not aerodynamic drag.
Cougars have a right to Bear arms.
That kitty is getting to an age when her kitty is probably bald.
The biggest difference here between here and Alec Baldwin? She’s not denying pulling the trigger.
Good parallel. But Baldwin skates. As another degenerate criminal loved by the left said, “Guilty as sin, free as a bird.”
$5,000-$10,000 a month for a assisted living senior facility or free jail with a bonus of free taxpayer funded health care. I think she made her choice.
Jailers do not differentiate between someone 18 or 81.
Incarcerated is no place to be for an old person.
I guess “I didn’t know it was loaded” is only an excuse for wealthy, famous movie actors…
she should have said he handed her the gun and stated it’s not loaded.
It’s all Arthur Osborne’s fault, he should’ve just rubbed a little aloe on it and it would be fine.