On yesterday’s Kilmead & Friends radio show, Brian ranted on and on and on about how the Midnight Movie Massacre had nothing to do with gun control. Gun control couldn’t have prevented the spree killing. “We have to identify the psychos amongst us,” he railed, blaming Holmes’ mother—and other mothers, fathers, sons, friends, colleagues and acquaintances—for not dropping the dime on a potential psycho killer. Brian also called for laws that require people to buy ammunition in person, rather than via the Internet. In fact, ban internet ammo sales! Just like they do in California. Oh wait . . .
Cast your mind back to January 25, 2011, when msnbc.com reported that “Fresno County Superior Court Judge Jeffrey Hamilton struck down the law [banning Internet ammo sales in California], saying the definition of handgun ammunition used in the legislation was so vague as to be unconstitutional.”
So not quite the reason gun rights advocates would like, but the right result. Unfortunately, it’s clear that spree killer James Holmes’ internet ammunition purchases—six thousand rounds!—have opened a new front in the war on guns. Needless to say, the New York Times is right there in the trenches with Suspect Bought Large Stockpile of Rounds Online . . .
Unhindered by federal background checks or government oversight, the 24-year-old man accused of killing a dozen people inside a Colorado movie theater was able to build what the police called a 6,000-round arsenal legally and easily over the Internet, exploiting what critics call a virtual absence of any laws regulating ammunition sales.
With a few keystrokes, the suspect, James E. Holmes, ordered 3,000 rounds of handgun ammunition, 3,000 rounds for an assault rifle and 350 shells for a 12-gauge shotgun — an amount of firepower that costs roughly $3,000 at the online sites — in the four months before the shooting, according to the police. It was pretty much as easy as ordering a book from Amazon.
Now you and I know that 3000 rounds of ammunition is, at best, a moderate supply. For the non-gunnies out there, I never shoot less than a 100 rounds per range session. Per gun. Three thousand rounds would be thirty range sessions, max. If I’m focusing on one firearm, I’ll shoot a minimum of 500 rounds through the gun per session. Three thousand rounds would last me four sessions. And take less than an hour to shoot.
I purchase my ammo online and in person. Occasionally, I’ll buy some rounds at a Massachusetts gun store, where I have to show my expensive, hard-t0-get Massachusetts License to Carry. Out-of-state residents bereft of this bureaucratic blessing are banned from buying bullets. Apparently, that’s a good thing . . .
A few states like Illinois, Massachusetts and New Jersey, and cities like Los Angeles and Sacramento, have passed restrictions on ammunition sales, requiring permits for buyers or licenses for sellers. Or insisting that dealers track their ammunition sales for law enforcement.
The Firearms Owners Protection Act of 1986 specifically states that
No such rule or regulation prescribed after the date of the enactment of the Firearms Owners Protection Act may require that records [of firearms purchase or ownership] required to be maintained under this chapter or any portion of the contents of such records, be recorded at or transferred to a facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States or any State or any political subdivision thereof, nor that any system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions or disposition be established.
As Wikipedia points out in maddening detail, federal, state and local governments routinely piss all over this provision (e.g., how did the police in New Orleans know where to go to confiscate guns post-Katrina?). So what about bullets? Is it illegal to keep a gun registry in the interest of forestalling government tyranny but fine and dandy to keep an ammunition purchase registry to ID psycho-killers?
A few states like Illinois, Massachusetts and New Jersey, and cities like Los Angeles and Sacramento, have passed restrictions on ammunition sales, requiring permits for buyers or licenses for sellers, or insisting that dealers track their ammunition sales for law enforcement.
But in Colorado, and across much of the United States, the markets for ammunition — online and in storefronts — are largely unregulated, gun-control advocates say.
OMG! Unregulated ammo sales! Anyone, even a mass murderer can, buy thousands of rounds of ammo! Something must be done!
A 1999 bill in Congress aimed at regulating Internet sales of ammunition was never adopted. Democrats in the House and Senate have introduced measures to restrict the sales of large-capacity magazines, but neither measure has gained any traction with the House controlled by Republicans, who tend to be strong supporters of gun rights, and election-year politics shunting politically volatile issues like gun control to the side.
Notice how the Times links a DOA thirteen-year-old bill on internet ammo sales to more recent efforts to ban high capacity magazines on the federal level. [NB: many states, like Mitt Romney’s Massachusetts, already ban magazines that hold more than ten cartridges.] It’s all much of a muchness for the media: guns, bullets, tactical vests. It’s all gun nut stuff.
Which is why they let Dudley Brown have the last word.
Dudley Brown, executive director of Rocky Mountain Gun Owners, said there was no need to track sales of ammunition or require ammunition dealers to follow the same strictures as gun dealerships. He said law-abiding sportsmen and target shooters often bought ammunition in bulk to save money, and may keep rounds on their shelves for years. He said they can easily blow through 400 or 500 rounds in one vigorous day at a shooting range.
“I call 6,000 rounds of ammunition running low,” he said.
What the Times and their left-leaning friends in the mainstream media fail to realize is that Brown’s right. And any move to restrict ammo sales is not a slippery slope towards gun control. It IS gun control.
trying to ban ammo sales online is completely ridiculous, this is where is get EXACTLY the type of ammo that i want in the amount that i want, and not having to “settle” on what is in the store. Ammo is alot like holsters, it is hard for small gun shops to carry it because most people have specific preferences, so it is difficult and not exactly cost effective to cater to the needs of all shooters. my favorite website is ammunitiontogo.com, great selection there, but there are SO many options to choose from out there these days.
i routinely buy off the internet for ammunition. i save money and the stuff gets delivered right to my door. where i live in the s.f. bay area if i find ammo for my mak at the local shops it goes for 22-25 bucks a box. online it’s about half that. and that 1986 law needs to be brought to sacramentos attention. i have to register my pistols with state doj and starting in 2014 we have a long gun registry. wife retires in 5 years. i’d like to take my income and move to another state when that happens.
If you like the left coast and don’t mind a little bit chillier than the Bay, I recommend Washington: Mostly gun-friendly, Shall-Issue CCW (that gives you instant purchase clearance–no waiting), prices about 25-30% cheaper than CA and no mag capacity or “assault weapon” restrictions. I’m much happier since I made the move north. (Oregon besides Portland ain’t bad either.) Add less-crazy, no state income tax and that I just paid 1/3 of CA rates for my car tags.
If you want warm and won’t miss the ocean, I’d say AZ (just because I spent 35 years there). Actually, pretty much any state on this side of the country EXCEPT CA…
NH,,”Live free our Die!”
I am not retired, and have six kids be we are thinking of making the move.
my wife loves the salt lake up to idaho area. my first post above reminded me and i hit ammo to go for another load of pistol ammo. can never have too much.
i second wa, we are mostly more friendly here, arizona is far more friendly, but we are working on it
If the same rational was used after the Oklahoma City bombing then all fertilizer and gasoline sales should have been controlled too since that was a major disaster caused by a crazy.
Actually high nitrate fertilizer sales are strictly regulated now. You can’t make HME (home made explosives) out of Scotts Turfbuilder. You now need a license to purchase the stuff McVey used. Which sucks, because if you want a good lawn it means you have to either put down a ton of Scotts Turfbuilder ($$) or use a lawn service that has the license ($$$). Only the US Government can create a black market for fertilizer.
Why, in the past week, have I not read, seen or heard a single story about guns in the MSM where the writer or speaker was not completely ignorant on the subject. By ACCIDENT, somebody should get through.
Because educated people are not allowed in journalism. Journalism should be renamed to “propagandism” to more accurately reflect the duties of the position.
Not so much reply to this astute observation by Fargo but another headline:
Citizen Calls for Outlawing Killing Pick Up Trucks
13 Dead, 12 Injured In South Texas Pickup Crash! I haven’t decided to blame either the Ford Pickup Truck or the Tree that caused the sudden stop……….Either way it could not have been the 23 people stuffed into an open bed F-250 or the driver going to fast and by the way, they were all in the US illegally…… http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local_news/article/13-dead-in-Goliad-County-crash-3726682.php#ixzz21SV99mgd
So how come we are not hearing about this sad event?
Pick & Choose………
If we just ban trees then vehicles that are out of control will not hit a tree.
I realize the antis are half retarded anyway, but do they not realize you can buy bulk ammo at stores as well? Hell Cabelas gives you a free ammo can if you buy bulk ammo.
Geez, 6000 rounds is a “cache”? Sounds like a bare minimum to me. Unfortunately, I lost most of my ammo in a tragic boating accident. As always, I escaped in good health.
You sure have a lot of tragic boating accident–but congrats on your open water survival skills!
It’s called a “cache” by the same people who call a break-open shotgun, 30-30 lever rifle and a .22 revolver an “arsenal”.
Half?
Really, free ammo can? hhmm and I can get it even if I am from another state? I would drive form CA to Reno for that one.. Especially if I am going to save some green. Plus it is beautiful in Reno/ Tahoe area anyways.
I just ordered 500 rounds online for my mak and it’s a little late getting here. Maybe I ‘ve been fingered as a threat and the ammo for my plinker intercepted and ceremoniously destroyed.
When they say they want to regulate ammunition, what they want is what what we have here in MA, where possession of ammunition or their components gets you a 2.5 year term without the permit RF mentioned. Yes, in MA you can get 2.5 years for possession of a primer, a bullet, or even a brass casing. Mace and pepper spray are also included as ammunition, and the same penalties apply. When we bring non-permitted friends to the range, we check their shoes for casings before they leave. So to those living in free states, do not even let them start this “regulate ammunition” argument
The state of NH was going to put up signs warning folks that they where about to enter MA and many of your rights will not be observed. MA out of state LTC-A. $100/yr. + you have to interview in Chelsea in person.
I’ve never bought ammo online only because I shoot mostly .22 and you have to buy a lot of .22 to save coin. I also only go shooting when I visit my rifle (and my mom) back in Georgia. Being in a different country for a year makes these trips a little difficult.
Its funny how bug eyed my non-shooting friends get when I tell them a typical trip to the range involves 300-500 rounds.
To put the cost of 3-500 rounds per session for a “hobby” or “sport” in perspective, I’ve known folks (including my step-dad) that blow $1000 and more for a round of golf at a nice Country Club (this not including membership dues and the cost of good clubs). For the same money I can buy a decent gun and feed it (or feed one for a good while). Given the cash flow, guess how I’d rather spend an afternoon?
Take the “friend” that freaks out about you having a few thousand rounds out shooting and I’ll bet they’ll get sad when the ammo runs out.
Why isn’t the knee-jerk “we have to DO something!!” reaction one about identifying and treating the mentally disturbed before they pull this kind of shit?
Don’t answer, I already know; doing that would be difficult and scapegoating gun owners is easy.
Precisely.
Good comment, Swarf.
Perhaps a stronger mental health system wouldn’t have saved any of the Aurora victims, but it certainly would have the potential to reduce the number of suicides and murders.
What about identifying and treating the mentally disturbed who are inclined to have the “we have to DO something” knee-jerk reaction?
So… everybody?
…
I shoot 5000+ rounds of 22lr alone every year. I guess I must be a dangerous guy.
Antis are pathetic, flailing out at anything they can to soothe their damaged minds and grasp at some form of “control.” Like the old saying goes gun control is not about guns, it’s about control.
One must wonder if the founding fathers, while putting together a democratic republic, ever wondered if the country would be so overrun with morons that the democratic system would in fact turn into the very thing that destroys the country.
The Founders were certainly aware of this problem, which is why sufferage was highly limited in the early days of the Republic.
Universal sufferage is a modern idea. I think that the Founders would be puzzled by it, but not necessarily opposed.
The irony here is this shooting actually prompted me to buy ammo online for the first time this morning (and PMAGs) because the store shelf is cleaned out.
The store in my town bought some 50 AR lowers. They are now down to 1. Pieces and parts are going out as soon as they come in. People who have no idea about AR rifles are getting them. there were a couple of guys in the shop the other day. Had no idea how to strip one down. They both dropped the green and filled the forms. I was lucky I got the last of the spikes lowers. I get to pick it up today!
I will keep the extra non CA legal bits and pieces and also get a few dismantled mags of normal capacity, just in case the SHTF. At that point the cops will have more to worry about than just me.
Funny though the CA legal lowers don’t have the rear block milled out so you can’t convert to a class III. Goofy I know but oh well. I am also thinking of getting a 308 upper with a scope, it would work well for deer. A lot of places in CA your shots aren’t over 150 yards anyways, unlike the mid west where you can have shots out to or beyond 500.
+1 Cabelas had a sale on 9mm for online only so I bought 800 rds yesterday and had them delivered to the nearest store for pickup.
OT yet related to the unarmed victim shooting in Colorado:
‘Dark Knight Rises’ shooting: Three (male) heroes died in Aurora taking bullets for their girlfriends
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/aurora-shooting-died-bullets-sweeties-article-1.1119395?localLinksEnabled=false
Interesting though not surprising that MSNBC didn’t appear to mention this story about men paying the ultimate price to protect their women yet MSNBC highlighted a story about the power of female-female friendship with a gal-pal staying with a wounded friend in the theater.
Aharon, when man bites dog, that’s news.
Last night, I bit into pork only it was already a polish sausage. The day before I bit into chicken that was BBQ’d. Today for lunch, I’m going to bite into a steer that was later turned into a smoked brisket.
So what if James Holmes purchased 6000 rounds off the Internet. Shouldn’t the real question be how many rounds did he actually fire?
With 12 people killed and 58 wounded, and assuming all of the wounded were wounded due to gunfire, that’s a minimum of 70 rounds shot or about 1% of the total cache. He’s probably that he wasn’t that good of a shot, so even assuming he connected only 10% of the shots, that would mean 700 rounds, or about 12% of his purchase of 6000 rounds. It’s likely he was a better shot than that. And considering his AR-15 supposedly jammed, and he resorted to using his shotgun then handguns, I’d speculate that he probably shot under 200 total rounds or less–maybe even a LOT less.
Limiting the number of rounds one can purchase over the Internet would, in this case, have simply not mattered.
Anyone else agree or disagree with this very uneducated speculation?
yeah its not like he unleashed 6000 rounds at the crowd.
You know, I generally like Fox & Friends, and Fox generally, but they are definitely “NY conservatives”. They had some idiot retired NYPD Detective named Bo Deedle on who was ranting about “fully automatic assault rifles” in the hands of criminals and loonies, etc. Dude, you were, nominally at least, a cop – you don’t know the difference between semi and full auto? Really?
I’d never have high expectations from someone named Bo Deedle.
I don’t think the LA and Sacramento ammo requirements aare so much a “permit” requirement as much as a requirement that the seller log the identifying information of the purchaser, the caliber, and the number of rounds sold. This basically becomes a “face to face” transaction requirement. Most online sellers will not bother with the hassle. The law is routinely circumvented by sending ammo to surrounding communities for pick up. I think San Fran has outlawed the sale (but not the possession) of “nonsporting” rounds, which is interpreted to mean no sales of hollow points. Doesn’t stop anyone from going to Oakland to buy them, though. (As it is, there is only one gun shop in SF.)
I believe San Fran voluntarily gave up the anti-hollowpoint ordinance after being challenged by CalGuns and having a liberal judge rule that he was inclined to overturn their ordinance. I think Gura was involved with that too
Judges decision on internet sale of ammo in CA is being challenged the AG
July 24, 2012, 7:15 am
KMJ News
A battle is looming in California courts over whether gun owners should be required to appear in person and be fingerprinted before being allowed to buy ammunition.
A law that was scheduled to take effect last year would have required buyers of handgun ammo to be thumb-printed and ID’d, and records of big ammunition purchases would be sent to the authorities.
But the law was put on hold by a judge in Fresno.
In January 2011, Judge Jeffrey Hamilton agreed with retailers and the California Rifle and Pistol Association that the law was unconstitutionally vague and barred the state from enforcing the new requirements.
State Attorney General Kamala Harris has appealed the ruling, saying the evidence shows that gun dealers know which types of ammunition are used more often in handguns.
A hearing is expected by early next year.
On top of all that, the enactors of this legislation have never been able to explain how it is that handgun ammo registration will fulfill its avowed purpose of helping to solve crimes. If microstamping were to happen, well ya maybe, but otherwise? I mean, does anybody track where and when they use up their ammo? And what is to prevent people from going over to Reno to buy? How can you tell one bullet casing from another? (NY has determined that you can’t–not without microstamping.) The whole law is pointless and its only effect will be to “register” every person who buys ammo.
What I don’t understand is how limiting or completely abolishing online ammo transactions would have any effect on the situation. The shooter shot approx 100-200 rounds (my estimate) and hit 70 people. It wouldn’t make a difference if bought 201 rounds from his local store or 4.5 million rounds from a federal contractor, the results remain the same. All these articles mention 6000 rounds (!!!) as if it made a difference how many shots he didn’t take. Can you imagine if the shooter was carting around 180+ lbs of ammo on him? I understand the desire to stop these sorts of atrocities but can we at least try something that has a chance of working?
Simply put; its called a False Association. thats the term you need to use with any intellectual libtard buddies you may have.
As has been stated above, the amount of ammo sitting at the guy’s apartment is completely irrelevant to the shooting. But idiots will associate the two and the Lords of Lies know this. Why O Why are people so fickle?
**Furthermore, don’t people know he used the exact same weaponry found in any modern squad car? Wheres the bitching about that? We trust cops but not ourselves? Ookay
Very nice. Good comment.
I bought 800 rds online from Cabelas yesterday. When should I expect SWAT?
Black Hills Ammo would often sell factory seconds (reman/reloaded ammo that looked bad – usually cruddy brass – but shot great) out of their shop by the case for dirt cheap (about what buying components would cost). Living in Rapid City, I could buy 10,000 rounds in a day and stock up for the whole year.
I live in a rural area and some odd calibers for C&R guns I own are essentially impossible to buy in person without traveling around for hours. It would effectively end my ability to fully enjoy a number of my guns.
And he didn’t shoot thousands of rounds of ammo. And if someone would sell him rifles, pistols, and shotgun in person, they’d certainly sell him ammo as well.
But facts matter little to the legislate-first idiots.
There can be no doubt where these people want to lead us and what they want to do.
As for Kilmead, he is emotional and un-thinking, or perhaps he has additional goals in mind that he knows better than to share with his audience.
SHOCKING! And for anyone shocked by THAT, they’ll be KNOCKED OUTTA THEIR CHAIR when they learn DHS – yes, thats the Dept of Homeland Security via the Airport’s TSA- ordered about the same time, with NO EXPLANATION ALSO, more than 750MILLION(!) Rounds of civilian-killing Ammo! {not a misprint:MILLION}
The FBI & CONGRESS ITSELF ‘SHOULD’ be investigating THAT FIRST!!!!!!!!!!
** GOVT, not civilians, r OUT OF CONTROL. FEAR UR GOVT!!
Ammunition qualifies as “Arms” and is protected under the Second Amendment. The term “Arms” refers to all “Ordinary Military Equipment”. This is per the 1939 Supreme Court case United States v. Miller.
Well thanks to the panic some folks feel over the re-election of the president, can’t find my caliber of ammo in sticks & bricks stores right now. Have to get .32 on line for the time being.
How foolish is it to stock pile weapons & ammo due to who is in the White House?
If guns and ammo are going to be banned, don’t ya think the government would be seizing all those guns the chicken littles just purchased, before banning new purchases?
We have plenty of weaponry & ammo already. I’ll get enough .32 caliber to tide me over until the stores can re-stock. We have the best home security you can get, in the form of a moderate sized male Golden Retriever, with a really bad attitude toward strangers. Postal workers sail packages up to the front door since we adopted “Becker” good dog!!!
And that beautiful dog can be easily killed or drugged and your Complete defense system is now Kaput!!!
As for stocking up, I made a Killing on the Previous ban, I purchased 2 H&K G93’s, they were banned and I sold them a year later for about 3 times what I paid (Plus enjoyed a few ‘outings’ with them) Same thing is going on now, I had seen a $1000 DPMS (Bad Quality Control…) going for 2-3 times what it is worth. Sadly you have opertunists everywhere.
“And that beautiful dog can be easily killed or drugged and your Complete defense system is now Kaput!!!”
Not really, when we are home, he and our other Goldens are in the same room. with us. When in backyard, we are with them. I have a small Ruger .38 in a pocket holster with pretty much all the time, and easy, quick access to .357 3″ 6 round Ruger. Becker is the early warning system, I’m the complete defense system
Thow is ridiculous; mexico has one of the hardes laws in gun end ammo control but you all can see the violence there,always will be illigal vendors and black markets.
Funny how they neglect to mention that the US Government bought 2 BILLION rounds of ammuntion.
Their explanation – it saved money buying in bulk!
Yea this is relevant because you need 3000 rounds for a killing spree. And being able to find out where the shooter bought their ammunition after the crime has occurred is very important, and will save lives. It’s too bad no one could find out where this guy bought his ammunition and exactly how much. Oh wait I missed that part of the quote, they do know already, and this law would have changed what exactly?
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