Opposing Views on the State of the National Rifle Association

1. “Gabby Gifford is busy fundraising and using these funds to splinter gun owners away from the NRA.”

   This is paranoid projection, I don’t need to read the rest of the excuses; LaPierre’s been “splintering gun owners away” from the NRA for years. He told half a million bump stock owners to piss off, and has told hundreds of thousands of NFA owners the same.
   There was but a brief period after Newtown when he didn’t. At this point, the only reason the NRA gains members is because it is required by clubs, they are clueless Fudds, or because the NRA has allowed the gun rights situation to become so bad & convinced people so desperate that they are the ONLY chance at salvation.

   • “LaPierre’s been “splintering gun owners away” from the NRA for years.”

     That’s an idiotic/moronic statement in that NRA has grown from approximately a million members to beyond 5 million during WLP’s tenure. The other yapping splinter groups have neither gone, or are going anywhere in comparison.

     People are delusional to believe that some other organization could automatically step in to fill the void should NRA somehow go under. It’d be a CF of the largest proportions- in the mean time, the 2nd Amendment would go away in a spectacular fashion. There might be a couple Koresh/Ruby Ridge-type standoffs but looking at the players now I even doubt that. Just a lot of basement whining and buried Mossbergs and SKSs in some backyards.

     If you want to change the organization you’ll first have to join, then either be a 5-year continuous member or Life so you’ll have some actual skin in the game. That’s more than reasonable.Like changing the US Constitution- it should not be simple to take over the world’s largest civil rights organization and it should take some time. There was a valiant effort by Adam Kraut and some others at the meetings last week (I was actually there) and the members attending cast them aside after some long and heated discussion.

     Some of you peeps have been bitching and moaning about NRA for 30 years and still have nothing but a glimmer of hope coming from New York State (!!!) to show for your efforts. But, of course, you still have all your guns, even after 8 years of Clinton and another 8 from obama, even with a full democrat house and senate for a couple times. No thanks to GOA or the NAGRs for that- they aren’t even mentioned in the “history books”, nor by any legislators from either side of the aisle.

     Ignorance really is not bliss for the rest of us.

     • I explained why the membership still grows despite splintering off many of the most-highly motivated persons in the firearms sports & industry; clueless people don’t realize just how culpable the NRA has been in allowing things to deteriorate, and the NRA has erected a massive propaganda machine to convince people they are the only option to oppose further deterioration, even while they are doing little to stop it.

       The bump stock ban was the biggest federal advancement in gun control in DECADES, that will bite us all on the rear for years to come, yet the NRA was one of its earliest supporters because “bump stock owners are unimportant.” The EXACT same story played out in 1986, where the NRA completely failed to recognize the implications of the Hughes Amendment & stop its passage, because “machine gun owners are unimportant.” That’s being incredibly charitable by not assuming the NRA Fudd leadership weren’t simply hostile to these ‘radical’ gun owners in the first place.

       You can’t just pretend that the NRA doesn’t ignore or outright betray less-popular sections of the shooting community. They always have, they always will, and that means those people have a reason to have nothing to do with the org. That is what is idiotic, imo, not me pointing out that fact.

       I also explained why and how this whole “only the NRA can *insert accomplishment here*” argument is simultaneously flawed, and incredibly self-serving to the NRA. And sure enough, we get an NRA supporter that’s more hostile toward other RKBA groups that achieve more with less than the NRA. Be certain your NRA will take credit if GOA/FPC/SAF/etc are able to get the bump stock ban struck down. I’ll be certain to count on NRA members’ denial they ever supported the policy, as well. Same as with Heller, same as with the case in NYC, today.

       If the NRA would actually support gun rights where they are being infringed, or at least being restricted further by new gun control consistently, I would support them.
       If the NRA would actually made good use of the funds provided them for the reasons they are donated, and not waste them on vanity projects, graft, or just plain vanity, I would support them.
       If the NRA was actually accountable to its membership and capable of adapting, I would support them.
       If the NRA was actually devoted to furthering RKBA and not its own brand’s domination of the gun rights ‘industry,’ I would support them

       • I can splinter just fine without Gabbys help. The nra is nothing more than a grade school bully now and the rest of the gun world has grown up and moved on. Rather the supporting gun owners and the 2A, the nra just looks for new kids to pick on, pointing their middle finger at anyone but themselves.

       • Unfounded, speculative bullshit.

         Let’s find out what is really going on before we condemn the ONLY organization which does actually fight legal battles against the Gun Ban Industry.

         • “…before we condemn the ONLY organization which does actually fight legal battles against the Gun Ban Industry.”

           Please do some research on your claim. The NRA is not and has never been the ONLY organization fighting legal battles against the Gun Ban Industry. They in fact are not and have not actually engaged in any fights not started by other organizations first as far as I have been able to ascertain. They have been so much more influential in getting legislation passed AGAINST the rights of gun owners than any other gun owners organization in history.

       • ““LaPierre’s been “splintering gun owners away” from the NRA for years.””

         You wrote this and nothing in any amount of volume you’ll try to write now can justify it.

         You can whine all you want about not getting what you think is right but WLP has not cost NRA anything in membership numbers. There is no way to figure out how much monye he’s raised for the organization over his presence, either.

         The people representing your view were resoundingly defeated last weekend at the Member’s Meeting in Indy, after having more than an hour of discussion, often trying to shout down the chair and leadership like a bunch of 3rd world thugs. (I was there, right by one of the microphones…) The majority of them couldn’t even follow the debate/voting process they themselves put into motion. Rank amateurs with no claim to lead anything other than a Wed night poker league at one of their houses.

         So, you and a bunch of NRA-haters around here aren’t members, never will be. Big deal! Go ahead and shout your crap all you want. TTAG, Ammoland and other sites are never going to get you what you want. In that sense, you’d be far better off siding up with the Bloomberg, Soros and Cuomo people, if you haven’t already. Watching how you and your ilk complain about everything NRA has done to maintain The Right (especially since the 1977 Cinci reforms) is nearly comical. The fact that you (personally) most-likely still have all of the guns you did before the Clinton era “bans”/NICS, and that the number of privately owned firearms has more than doubled since that era and 40-some states now have both concealed carry on demand and preemption laws just proves how little you are willing to do to also protect that right. Talk’s cheap, pal. GOA, NAGRs and others do little more than yap and provide a living for their own small leadership.

         • “So, you and a bunch of NRA-haters around here aren’t members, never will be.”

           I was a member, but having been inside non-profits before, I knew what I was seeing.

           Would I want to see the NRA destroyed from within, or without? Don’t really care. If NRA can offer any assistance to 2A activist, and I don’t have to spend money on/with NRA it is all good. I will switch brand loyalty without remorse, if the new brand performs better than the prior brand.

           The utility of NRA today is to divert resources from Soros, Bloomy, etc. The anti-gunners spend enormous amounts countering a relatively smaller political actor. That is good for pro-gun interests. And it is to their ever-lovin’ credit that hundreds every year fall victim , uh, er, I mean “become members” to the NRA (otherwise known as the “really big show”).

           BTW – a good saleshuman uses objections as an opportunity to persuade. A really bad saleshuman curses the skeptical non-buyers.

       • “Watching how you and your ilk complain about everything NRA has done to maintain The Right (especially since the 1977 Cinci reforms) is nearly comical.”

         No, the NRA doesn’t support the RIGHT and doesn’t maintain it. Negotiating Rights Away consistently supports privileges. Of course, a Fudd wouldn’t see that.

     • “…in the mean time, the 2nd Amendment would go away in a spectacular fashion. ..”

       Don’t think so.

       If that were true the 2nd would have been purged long ago.

       • ““…in the mean time, the 2nd Amendment would go away in a spectacular fashion. ..””

         Reread my entire statement. But, in a sense, you may be correct. I was referring primarily to the celbrations in the MSM and by the elitists seeking to do away with it. I wonder a lot just how many of the rabid gomers around here would actually take up arms should the 2nd be declared null and void. I’m not convinced it would be many. Ditto the people “in the streets” should the 1st Amendment be overturned. I’m not sure we could even mount a “Tianamen Square moment” if we have to rely on the anti-NRA people around here. Of course, the best bet is to continue to insist that neither ever happen.

       • “if we have to rely on the anti-NRA people around here.”

         I hope that you realize the anti-Negotiating Rights Away people around here are pro-RKBA people. Privileges do not equal rights. Consistently advocating for privileges to the detriment of exercising unalienable individual rights makes the NRA dangerous to liberty.

         • You’ve got a hot hand tonite, John. And a torch in it.

       • “You’ve got a hot hand tonite, John. And a torch in it.”

         Now if I can just find where I set my pitchfork. lol

     • If their membership continues to grow…why are they $30 million in the hole financially? Why have they technically been insolvent since the mid 90’s?

       There is an incestuous relationship between Ackerman McQueen and the NRA. You literally can’t tell where one ends and the other begins. The recent NRA lawsuit against them is a CYA measure on their part.

       The executive suite is rife with corruption and greed and salaries that will follow those people long after they retire…current financial situation of the organization be dammed.

       As long as the current EVP is in office nothing will change.

       LTC North is just the latest to find out…like Neal Knox did in the 90’s when he was backed by another group dissident board members…you can’t take down the King. Try and he’ll take you down.

       It’s sad that the “face” of the NRA will be the “face” of it’s downfall.

       • The NRA sounds like a socialist country. They were able to fool all the people and take their money. Now they grown large and refuse to change who’s in charge. They rule with secrecy and back room deals. If anyone in the party gets out of line they are dealt with. When there is a revolt it’s quickly shut down by the establishment.

         No wonder a lot of neo cons love the NRA.

     • “That’s an idiotic/moronic statement in that NRA has grown from approximately a million members to beyond 5 million during WLP’s tenure.”

       What does this prove other than he’s a good fund raiser. He has to be to take care of his pals…oh and his $1.4m/yr pension!

     • You completely ignore the state level gun control. Things are not better overall. Some states are just horrible and other states are falling.

   • “There was but a brief period after Newtown when he didn’t.”

     There were thirteen sentences in the NRA’s response to Newtown that were dangerous to liberty that told me, and others who cherish individual freedom, to piss off.

     • Well yeah, but I referring to gun rights specifically. In hindsight & without panic/horrorified shock, we can see that the political ground was not fertile for bipartisan gun control, and therefore the NRA’s stance was far less brave or impactful than it seemed at the time. Somehow I doubt this was lost on LaPierre with all his insider knowledge, when he took his hard line.

   • “At this point, the only reason the NRA gains members is because it is required by clubs, they are clueless Fudds, or because the NRA has allowed the gun rights situation to become so bad & convinced people so desperate that they are the ONLY chance at salvation.”

     Truth!

   • Richard Pearson? Lapierre’s boot licker and shoe shiner.

     • Boys, boys, boys. You can go on and on about NRA not doing this or that while doing something entirely different. Makes you feel good, doesn’t it. Fact is, NRA is the only game in town that means anything. The only way you can gain a sentilla of credibility would be to bring it down completely, but then-

       UH OH! WE’VE GOT ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO REPLACE IT WITH.

       You’ve got a mega-million dollar organization already in place with contacts, networks and friends world-wide. If you are do sure you’re right, do as I’ve written ad nauseum around here and get on the board and change its course. Far, far more simple than trying to start over, which NONE of you could do. Easy to sit here and Ammoland and bitch to others just like yourselves, as Kraut, et al found out, it’s a lot harder to sell your goods when you have nothing in your past history to back your claims other than “It’s written right there in the Constitution”. Even smart ol’ Sam has conceded on TTAG that it’s entirely possible for the 2nd Amendment to be overturned via Article 5. ( I think I was the first to post this around here, a long time back ).

       Present your replacement organization. Go out and raise the money. Figure out how you’ll make some contacts in the House, Senate, and Executive branch, especially after constantly insulting and deriding everyone, friend and foe alike. Sorry, kids, I won’t even wish you “good luck”, if I did I’d join the delusional.

       So- the entire world, or at least the TTAG is waiting for your Masterplan. Seems to me the Unabomber had one… Koresh, too. Maybe you can “one-up” there’s. You do realize, however, that I’m not really comparing you guys directly to them, or those like them. Only to the delusion that what you profess would/will ever take place if NRA goes down.

       • Sounds amazingly like deep state, establishment, and never Trumpers. Process over substance. Supporting contempt for “the normals”.

         That kind of thinking is why there is no Whig party in the US.

       • “Sounds amazingly like deep state, establishment, and never Trumpers.”

         If you’re referring to my last post, Sam- Where’s your Masterplan after NRA drops out? You, Barny, Ohio John and others are pretty good about supporting each other here on the private web but offer zip to protect 330 Million Americans.

         Just pick up where they left off- sure.

         How?

         With whom in charge?

         So, once again- if you boys are so sure of yourselves, run for NRA Board. Go inside NRA and take it over. Way more easy! You’d only have to convince about 60K people to be one of the top 25 next year. Ask Adam Kraut and Ollie, perhaps Jeff Knox how to go about doing it. Set the world, or at least the US right again. Steyer, Bloomberg, even Soros will probably help you out. Bet you can even con a meeting with DiFi or Bernie if you let them know you’re out to kill off NRA. The old “The enemy of my enemy is my friend” deal. I think the support’s right there waiting if you boys look for it.

         • “Where’s your Masterplan after NRA drops out?”

           Not my responsibility to save NRA from itself. NRA is responsible to prove its value in return for my donation. What happened fifty, sixty, a hundred years ago is not a compelling argument. All that matters is what are you doing for me today and tomorrow?

           When NRA publishes (and executes) a plan to heavily attack every gun restriction law, to punish squishy legislatures, put 2A above persons (BOD, LoppyEars, and personal power), that would be a supportable value proposition. Proposing to continue to do business the D.C. way is not of any value to me.

           What happens if NRA is dissolved? Too many people believe all the members will run and hide under their beds. My supposition is, like all history, people will adjust and survive. Adjusting by former members joining other gun rights organizations would be one option. Smaller gun rights organizations bundling into a new pro-gun group is another possible adjustment.

           Point is, if NRA is the end all, be all, we are doomed. The NRA can, at best, “influence” politicians. Voters can discipline them. If we cannot win at the ballot box, then we earn our reward. But truth is, gun owners do not see 2A as the only issue of importance. If that were so, 100 million gun owners would swamp the Swamp. We know that all 100 million gun owners do not sacrifice their other interests in favor of absolutism over the Second Amendment. That vast number of gun owners also includes voters who would trade the entire Second Amendment for free healthcare. Or rainbow rights. Or outlawing “hate speech”. Or repealing the Electoral College. And the list goes on. In a political world where everything is top priority, even that list will sort itself out, reflecting what the majority of voters deem most important in their day-to-day lives (and preparing for “the rising” is not the most important thing is most person’s lives).

           In the end, NRA is internally focused; preserving itself and perks for insiders (not the first, or only non-profit to do so). Either they adjust, or like all dinosaurs, die off.

       • “Not my responsibility to save NRA from itself.”

         You most-likely won’t accept any responsibility for working to keep the 2nd Amendment, either. Obviously, that’s what I’m concerned with.

         If there was some better and viable organization I’d gladly go along but there is none. Just a bunch of yappers and small splinter groups vying for traction. I’m not willing to let the 2nd Amendment die, many here would do just that, all the while trying to look intelligent at their keyboards.

         • “You most-likely won’t accept any responsibility for working to keep the 2nd Amendment, either. ”

           Well, finally we have a coherent arguement for making donations to a supplier who fails to render advertised services; scream and yell at everyone who doesn’t want to save a sinking ship. Yeah, that’s the way to do it. Hammer at the market for being stupid. Guarnateed to humiliate people into donating money. Wonder why more organizations don’t bully their customer base?

           (the above, friends, is snark/sarcasm vs. ridicule)

           As to your assertion, no, I do not put my name on lists unless there is no way to obtain a benefit otherwise, and those are few. If an organization I like does not offer cash option, they don’t get the money.

       • NRA does not promise/advertise anything other than to fight those opposed to the 2nd Amendment. No other group can come close to claiming they’ve been more effective. You kids can fold your arms and say “no compromise” all you want and then what? Given your attitudes, semiautomatic, magazine fed firearms would be done today after the Clinton-era attacks. Most handguns would be done as well and we’d have never seen the wave of shall-issue carry we have today. No compromise would’ve been the end of the line in 1994 and there’s really no intelligent way to prove otherwise- we have the present. Someone is always going to attack our gun liberties so long as there is debate. I choose my plan to stay in the fight, you obviously have none, at least nothing you can put forward.

2. Relocate to Oaklahoma or Texas and elect new leadership. Do not try to stab others in the back like they did to USCCA.

   • That would be nearly impossible for NRA to do.

     • I’m a little fuzzy on the legalities of that stuff. Can you share any details?

       • At this point, the NY AG can (and would) prevent the move, since it would be seen (rightly) as them trying to flee oversight & prosecution. Basically it’d be obstruction of justice for them to move now. Now if they’d done this back when Giuliani was stop-and-frisking with full NRA approval for years, that’d be another story.

     • It might be useful to remember that in 1871, NY State was the center of commerce for the US, and would have been far from “anti-gun”. Just as Boston (!) was the certer of the American Revolution in 1770… Things change over time. Or, perhaps I should say, people do.

3. I have a feeling that having been incorporated in one of the nation’s most anti-2nd Amendment states all these years, that if there were any skeletons in the NRA’s closet they would have been found years ago.

   • If not they’ll almost certainly be found now that NYS is gunning for them. Better to dig that stuff out before our next Democratic President.

     Then again, I really wonder if they would put a stake in the heart of the NRA. While they do want to do a bunch of stuff with gun control, I think a lot of that is like say abortion or gun rights on the right; It’s an issue to run elections on less so to actually do anything about.

     • At this point you couldn’t convince me that the O’Bama administration didn’t do a thorough investigation into the NRA looking for anything they could to bring them down.

       As far as the politicians, you have to separate the true believers from the ass wipers. In the case of abortion, there’s been several states pass ‘heartbeat’ laws restricting abortion to the first 6 weeks, which of course will be battled out in the courts for the next decade or so. But that’s not the act of someone who is only using an issue for political gain. I believe that if the NRA went down and Democrats got into power they’d pass sweeping gun control and be wiped out in the next election. The bad news in that scenario is we’re still stuck with Obamacare, so I wouldn’t get too exited about the post gun control purge of Democrats if that happened.

       • The Lerner IRS is a valid point. After this is done the NRA needs to sue NYS for abusing their power.

       • The other point I’d bring up is legit or not why wouldn’t you wait till an election cycle is underway to harass them? I mean the timing makes sense this thing will be full swing about the time the election really heats up.

         They were heavy Trump advocates last time around and it’s dubious that’d be different this time. It may be that advocacy drew attention to them the same way it did to his businesses.

       • As to your 2 posts above:
         1. They are.

         2. Fundraising for the dems.

     • “they’ll almost certainly be found now that NYS is gunning for them.”

       Tragically, I think NYS will save the NRA from its board of directors.

       I take NO particular stand with respect to any position NRA has taken; from the NFA’34 to the bump-stock ban. 1934 was too long ago to matter and the bump-stock issue was a matter of judgement.

       What bothers me is the wave of charges if malfeasance in the finances of the NRA. And, the board of directors appears to be indifferent. If board members had taken their responsibilities seriously this situation would not have come to a head. They let it; and, now they are sticking their heads in the sand.

       I want the NRA. I want it to be strong so that it can fight for the 2A. I want it to reform itself. But it will not. So, I await NYS and IRS to do the job. The consequence may be that they drive a stake through the heart of an American institution older than any other civil rights organization. If that is the only way to reprimand the board of directors then so let it be.

       Would that the membership had voted aggressively for reformer candidates for board seats. But they did not. Would that board members had heard the appeals of members who love the NRA. But they did not. Would that board members had sought private council on their duties as directors. But they did not.

       NYS, IRS, now do what the law calls for you to do. Directors, think about what you failed to do while you are being deposed.

       • Run for NRA Board, then, and figure out how to sell your ideas to the membership…

   • I wouldn’t be so sure, simply because money is thicker than blood or water. NRA may have been paying kickbacks to anti-gun NYC pols all this time for all we know, and apart from the stupidity of remaining in that situation all this time, they’d have been fully justified imo.

     Same as how Vegas will *never* drive away SHOT show, NY enjoys the benefits of keeping the NRA around…and who knows, maybe there really is a controlled-opposition aspect to the relationship as well (though I doubt it highly). The NRA may be non-profit/tax-exempt, but the Ackerman McQueen who burns all their operating cash sure isn’t. Those guys are also directly hooked up with all sorts of politicians, so if the NRA was essentially operating as a giant slush fund for anyone who dropped by, I can see why politicians would leave it alone until it became politically inconvenient.

     • @barnbwt: For those of us who do not know about Ackerman McQueen (including yours truly up until a few minutes ago), I think the following Wikipedia article (a short read) will be of considerable interest.
       https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ackerman_McQueen

     • “maybe there really is a controlled-opposition aspect to the relationship as well (though I doubt it highly).”

       For many years, I didn’t want to believe it but when you look at the NRA’s consistent history of choosing privileges over exercise of the actual right and how much infringement “POTG” are willing to accept (or even insist we must have) under the banner of their Lord-and-savior NRA; it becomes clear that gun control, over the long term, would have not been more likely to be accepted without the NRA acting as controlled opposition. Converting the exercise of rights into privilege has been stock in trade for Negotiating Rights Away since at least 1934. If government would’ve tried all of the infringement without a safety valve like the NRA, the People would’ve ignored it and rebelled. IMHO, the NRA is, and has been, a government asset to further acceptance of gun control under the guise of advocacy. I and others have been pointing this out even when it was very unpopular to do so.

       • As I understand it the NRA wasn’t engaged in political lobbying until after the 1968 GCA. Before that they were strictly a marksmanship organization.

       • “As I understand it the NRA wasn’t engaged in political lobbying until after the 1968 GCA. Before that they were strictly a marksmanship organization.”

         http://jpfo.org/articles-assd02/nra-supported-nfa34.htm
         http://www.keepandbeararms.com/NRA/NFA.htm
         http://time.com/4431356/nra-gun-control-history/
         http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2017/10/05/the-forgotten-nra-leader-who-despised-the-promiscuous-toting-of-guns/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.874d5dfc9622

       • For those who don’t want to read a bunch of stuff, here is just one quote that stands out.

         ‘Gun sellers and owners were required to register with the federal government and felons were banned from owning weapons. Not only was the legislation unanimously upheld by the Supreme Court in 1939, but Karl T. Frederick, the president of the NRA, testified before Congress stating, “I have never believed in the general practice of carrying weapons. I do not believe in the general promiscuous toting of guns. I think it should be sharply restricted and only under licenses.”’
         http://time.com/4431356/nra-gun-control-history/

       • Gov. William J Le Petomane, my first comment with all of the links proving that the NRA did, indeed, work for gun control in 1934 is awaiting moderation. Please check it out when/if it posts.

       • Here’s another quote for those who don’t like to read a lot of links. (JPFO & Keep and Bear Arms)

         “The NRA supported The National Firearms Act of 1934 which taxes and requires registration of such firearms as machine guns, sawed-off rifles and sawed-off shotguns. … NRA support of Federal gun legislation did not stop with the earlier Dodd bills. It currently backs several Senate and House bills which, through amendment, would put new teeth into the National and Federal Firearms Acts.” —American Rifleman, March 1968, P. 22

       • ‘A shift in the NRA’s platform occurred when in 1971…’

         In other news, the Catholic Church no longer participates in the selling of indulgences.

         Yes it would have been nice if the NRA had been a pro-2nd Amendment lobbying organization in 1934, but they weren’t. That organization didn’t exist at the time. You can debate the merits of postulating themselves as the more reasonable, mainstream gun rights organization, but failing to oppose the registration of fully automatic machine guns in 1934 isn’t the least bit relevant today because besides being ancient history, it was basically just a shooting club at the time.

       • “‘A shift in the NRA’s platform occurred when in 1971…’”

         You have been on TTAG for a good while and have undoubtedly read multiple articles telling the truth about the NRA. Time and time again people have posted links that prove Negotiating Rights Away has been pushing for gun control under the guise of privileges in place of exercising the unalienable individual right to keep and bear arms. As recently as this past year they supported a bump stock ban and Red Flag laws. How again is this NRA a friend of “shall not be infringed” again? How is it even a friend of the exercise of an unalienable individual right? It most certainly has not been and continues to not befriend liberty. The proof is everywhere for those who have eyes and want to know the truth.

       • “Yes it would have been nice if the NRA had been a pro-2nd Amendment lobbying organization in 1934, but they weren’t.”

         It STILL isn’t a pro-2nd Amendment lobbying organization. I NEVER has been and NEVER will be. This is as obvious as the nose on your face. The proof is all around you.

       • “but failing to oppose the registration of fully automatic machine guns in 1934”

         They didn’t fail to oppose it. They supported it and there were articles by the NRA where they bragged about writing it (either 1934, 1968, or both)!

         Hopefully those links I posted first will come out of moderation and be posted. There is a shit-ton of facts about the NRA, past and present, out there.

       • Like I said, you can debate the merits of portraying themselves as the reasonable gun rights organization. Personally if acquiescence on something like bump stocks gives them the leverage to push for national reciprocity or the removal of suppressors from the NFA list, then I would call that a great success. Of course, that all depends on the results. But either way the NRA is not going to die on that hill, and I’m fine with that. Zero compromise rarely accomplishes anything in politics.

       • “Zero compromise rarely accomplishes anything in politics.”

         It’s not about compromise. The organization literally does not support the RIGHT to keep and bear arms. They have been saying this clearly since 1934 unto the present day.

       • ”
         May 3, 2019 at 15:53
         “Zero compromise rarely accomplishes anything in politics.”

         It’s not about compromise. The organization literally does not support the RIGHT to keep and bear arms. They have been saying this clearly since 1934 unto the present day.”

         Well, I’ve said it before, John- if you’re such a staunch believer in never making compromises to keep things so you can fight another day- get your guns out and lead the cbarge against the Capital. See how many you can get to follow you. Take the first round for the cause. What you espouse and how you actually get there are 2 seperate things. Lead on! Perhaps I’ll send flowers…

   • Gov, why doesn’t the NRA dissolve the NY state incorporation and set up shop somewhere friendly?

     • I wouldn’t be surprised if they do pack up tent and move soon.

   • I guess you don’t understand how fascist and communist strategies work.

     Let’s skip the long explanation. Once you are no longer needed they “dispatch” you. You’re made redundant.

4. Neither of the two views mentions the NRA’s top officers enriching themselves and their friends with funds that should have been going into the good fight. This has been going on for decades and needs to be dealt with. Time for the NRA to clean up its act and bring in some new blood.

   • A high-colonic of the Ackerman-McQueen fiscal ‘arrangement’ is what’s needed.

     A *detailed* accounting autopsy…

5. Better lawyer up fast boys. Folks are going to go to jail.

   • “Better lawyer up fast boys. Folks are going to go to jail.”

     Yeah, right, the same way Trump was gonna be in handcuffs when Mueller was through him?

     *snicker* 😉

     • Trump is a Democrat in sheep’s clothing. All a dog and pony show.

       The NRA is a boogie-man for the left. They need it like they need Trump. That doesn’t mean they won’t eventually get rid of it. It’s all about timing. The NRA doesn’t care if the organization is destroyed as long as they do not go to prison.

       Investors like to buy up a business and milk it until its death. Then they take the money and buy a new investment. They money is all that matters to them.

       • “Trump is a Democrat in sheep’s clothing. All a dog and pony show.

         The NRA is a boogie-man for the left. They need it like they need Trump. That doesn’t mean they won’t eventually get rid of it. It’s all about timing.”

         Exaclty… Placebo, safety valve, and bogeyman. Judas goats.

       • I don’t know what you use, user1, but you either need more of it or get off of it .

       • @daveinwyo

         Tariffs, debt, gun control, police state… Very Democrat of him. Then he puts two countries above the U.S. Call him a Democrat (like he used to call himself) or call him a neo con [phony conservative].

         https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUlUZ9MywWI

       • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oh6VSCsxUSQ&

6. Although I’ve been a Life member for 40 years. I paid a lump sum for my membership years ago. I stopped monetary support at the national level about 20 years ago. Due to the actions of the national leadership. I use my money to support at the state level and local activities. There a lot of good people working hard at the state level to preserve and Reestablish OUR 2A Rights. While We still have work to do In Iowa. We are getting to a mush better place as far as 2A Rights go. I suggest everyone use your money/time in support of those people working at Your state level. Don’t forget to do Your part by contacting Your national/state and local politicians and expressing your views on Your 2A Rights. Everyone must do as much as they can in this fight. Those who won’t fight don’t Deserve to Be Free. Keep Your Powder Dry.

   • If you’re talking Aaron Dorr’s group, all you’re doing is paying for his house and car. Last I knew he wasn’t even a registered lobbyist and has no legislators friendly to his IGO bunch. He’s not been able to move any of his issues but sure talks tough if you’ve had enough booze in you when you read his emails.

     If you’re referring to IFC- they get the vast majority of their money and lobby support from NRA. Who’s left here? I go to the IA Statehouse on a regular basis, I think you’re being sold the same bill of BS a lot of others are..

     • I think some independent outfit needs to ‘results audit’ the state level NRA branches; there are undoubtedly a lot of really good ones doing really good local work (and contributing to good national work). Pretty much all the criticism comes from the upper leadership that overarches the state outfits, and even the criticism of the state outfits often stems from national getting involved in some bill or lawsuit. The NRA has such broad & effective roots, that it’s both unnecessary *and* strategically dumb to have a top-down system in the first place. National should at most be controlling branding, establishing a consistent platform/message, tallying & rating elected officials, and maintaining a call list for the state level groups to contact each other. That’s like ten million dollars and a hundred or so people, that can be based *anywhere.* The glory-hogging and useless lobbying by the nationals aren’t even necessary, and are usually more counter-productive than anything, but man do they make a lot of money & influence for the actual people involved.

     • I don’t belong to these organizations. I do use their resources occasionally and follow their websites. I would like to meet you some time. So we could talk shop on the 2A issues in Iowa. Use this thread and let me know when you plan on being at the state house. I’ll try to me up with you. If you’re not interested that’s fine. Just keep up the fight.

       • Sessions been over in Iowa now for a couple weeks. But you can usually catch me at any of the Des Moines and Cedar Rapids TSP gun shows. See if you can figure out where I’ll be…(It will not be at the IFC table)

     • “. . . and has no legislators friendly to his IGO bunch. He’s not been able to move any of his issues but sure talks tough . . .”

       You have just quite neatly defined TTAG along with every other internet based “gun-rights” site. Click-bait articles just aren’t the same as being on a first name basis with both elected republicans and elected democrats and actually having enough influence (a result of 5+ million members) with retail politicians to influence their votes on critical gun-control issues. No other gun-rights organization, traditional, internet based, social media based, can come close to doing that. None.

       • Are you saying other than NRA? I’ve gotten to see the Governor several times this past session, Majority Leader in both House and Senate more than several times and other key players as well. Might be different now but without the NRA connection to begin it likely wouldn’t have happended years back. Now Aaron Dorr- no way he’s going to get into their offices.

7. “New York has ordered NRA to not shred any documents!”

   That danger decreased significantly once Ollie left the building. lol

8. “My advice to all those keyboard commandos is to stop attacking the NRA and attack the real enemy.”

   The Negotiating Rights Away and “the real enemy” are one in the same. Both want exercise of the unalienable individual right to keep and bear arms to be replaced with government controlled privileges and both have steadfastly worked the entire time towards that goal. Maybe government figures the sheep are socialist enough that they no longer need their NRA asset to sabotage the RKBA, or somebody is screwing up and the NRA will somehow miraculously survive to continue being tyranny’s best-est little buddy.

9. The NRA people who call everyone that disagrees with how they sell out firearm owners by supporting gun control, trolls, leftists, bots, are no better than all the crazed leftists on TV blaming Trump and Russia for everything.

   The NRA has a legitimate problem, instead of trying to change they just blame it on everyone else and try and sell you wine subscriptions.

10. I believe that the two-tier membership setup of the NRA is basically flawed. Only life members who put up a sizeable chunk of front money (the privileged class) are allowed to vote in the NRA. The rest of us just have no say in NRA affairs
    From my lowly position down here in the grass roots section of the NRA, it looks like this setup encourages the establishment of a very comfortable old boy network at the top. To me, nothing better illustrates that than the appointment of name-recognition “presidents” (e.g. Oliver North) and the compensation that they must be getting.
    One possible solution to this problem might be to give ordinary members the vote, once they have been around for four or five years. Then, the NRA management might be held more to account for its actions.

    • If you have been in your “lowly position down there in the grass roots section of the NRA” for 5 years or more, congratulations! You are now officially one of us good old boys and as such you can vote for board of directors. No extra money up front necessary.

      • Someone: Okay. Thanks. Next year.

11. One of the positions appears to be, “So long as there is anti-gun opposition to NRA, members (and other POTG) should not make negative public comments, regardless of the performance of NRA andits leadership”.

    Really? The anti-gun/NRA people lack reasons to attack NRA, and it is inappropriate for POTG to provide more reasons?

    Really?

12. Meh…the NRA brought up bumpstock’s. Trump wouldn’t have signed a ban without them. “Better than nothing” isn’t good enough!

13. Gabby Giffords may want to splinter members away from the NRA, but she didn’t give Wayne LaPierre a bloated salary or approve the $200,000 wardrobe budget. I don’t believe Col. North is in her pocket.

    If the NRA gets it’s own house in order, no one will be peeling away any members.

14. I grow weary hearing crap about bump stocks. When I first heard of them and saw the ATF ruling on them my first thought was WTF!!! There was absolutely no way some kind of ban was not going into effect. Supreme effort must be made to ensure nothing else like this takes place. The left HAS to see a united fight rather than internal dissension. Remember the words prior to Kentucky joining the union in 1792,’By dividing we fall, by uniting we stand!” Jon Dickinson also published it during the American Revolution in 75 or 76. All the organizations should be coordinating efforts rather than shouting that this organization or that organization is not doing enough. Winning a small battle means SQUAT if YOU END UP LOSING THE FRIGGING WAR!!!!!

    • The supreme court refused to stop the enforcement of the illegal bump fire stock ban, which would have prevented owners from becoming felons. Now America has hundreds of thousands of felons with illegal machine guns.

      Trump’s government said they will make more of an effort to prosecute and seek the maximum sentence for gun crimes.

      Division is of the NRA’s making. They cater to the older white Republican male. It appears they did a survey/focus group of their membership and concluded they must divorce themselves of the other.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRyY0yiw-oU&t=53m41s

15. Wayne’s clothes: ~$200,000. Wayne’s travel expenses: ~$240,000. Wayne’s base salary: ~$1,400,000. Wayne’s retirement payment: ~$3,700,000. Wayne’s partner’s payment: ~$42,600,000.

    Clearly the money you give the NRA goes to fighting for the 2nd Amendment and destroying libtards.

    https://www.foxnews.com/us/nra-chief-wayne-lapierre-questioned-on-travel-expenses

    I wonder if the government is going to consider NRA’s practices as embezzlement.

16. My perception of the NRA and its claim to be “The Premier Gun rights Organization in the U.S. ) is all smoke and mirrors. (feel free to show me some facts as proof that I am wrong) Although it claims to “support” suits brought on by other second amendment organizations often that support (after a win is likely) is only moral support and not backed up with legal or financial help. Even when the actually do participate with others in litigation it is only after the heavy lifting has been done to prove the suit has merit. I can not find myself any case initiated by the NRA on its own that was not due to an attack directly on the NRA its self. The NRA does not seem to initiate any suits on its own but sits back to see if they think it is a winnable proposition or has feel-good optics for its own public image before joining in with litigation. And the fact they may well have lobbying power is wasted on the fact that they give positive ratings to legislators that fail to protect our rights and support/push infringements like the bump stock ban and ERPO laws. The NRA may be a large organization, but we members are being sold a bill of goods. The NRA may have a lot of power, but they are not using it effectively.

    • The NRA files lawsuits when someone messes with their ability to make profit or the ability of gun manufactures to make profit. Some of these lawsuits may help with human rights but that is a side benefit and not the main motivator for the filing. They pretend/lie that they are filing a lawsuit to protect NRA members rights to keep and bear arms to hype up the fools.

17. NRA has a problem with excessive costs partially due to Ackerman McQueen, and the rest is LaPierre and his whole cabal. The only reason NRA has 5 + million members is Obama, he was the greatest gun salesman and the most effective recruiter for NRA in the history of the United States. With Trump in office there is no urgent feeling on the part of lots of gun owners that we need to deal with the gun issue, so until the Democrats put more people in office, NRA will be stuck with declining membership and declining revenues.

18. personally I am done with the NRA, the bumpstock ban got me pissed but the NRA’s support of Rubio’s red flag law did it in for me. Simply put there are no large organizations that are fully devoted to the true meaning of the second amendment. Sure there are smaller groups but they lack the power to do anything. We gun owners are the only ones left and the point is coming (rapidly i might add) that we will need to “put up or shut up”. Accept the fact that they are coming for your guns and decide if you are going to turn them in or resist. It needs to be stated over and over again that if only 5% of the 100 million gun owners decide not to turn them in then there is no reasonable way to enforce a gun ban as there is currently no way to house 5,000,000 additional prisoners in our system and it would look really nasty to have 5,000,000 new felons overnight on the books. Not to mention the economic impact of 5,000,000 people no longer working or paying taxes. This simple fact only grows the more people decide to resist a tyrannical law to turn in your guns.

19. The NRA’s power comes from gun owners; both members and non-members, because of our persistence in voting for pro-gun candidates. If the NRA goes away, gun owners still retain their power as voters.

    Let them believe that the NRA is powerful and hamstring it. Then we’ll show them in the next election that the NRA is only the public representative of gun owners, not the repository of our power.

20. The Members group were members have NO SAY….the insider scam with Pepé Le Pew in charge.

    ALL 76 board members voted unanimous to keep Pepé Le Pew..what a scam.

    I wish they could be reformed but, they would rather drain it dry ..then bail..via golden chute it seems.

    • The unanimous vote is all I needed to know about the NRA’s BOD. Any group of people over 10 members will have great difficulty to decide where to go for lunch, so when 76 board members vote unanimously it can only mean one of two things.

      1. The alternative to what is being voted on is so obviously bad, it’s inconceivable to dissent.
      Or
      2. The organization is so strong handedly led, the dissent would have grave consequences.

      I have seen such structures, where everybody voted and everybody so wholeheartedly agreed with the leadership, the vote became just another opportunity to show unity and single mindedness of the whole people under great leadership of ….The Party.

      “Welcome to the elections, comrade, the voting booth is right here. Hey, wait! You actually want to go vote behind the curtain, comrade? What do you have to hide? We need to take a closer look at such elements which want to undermine our unity!” Not a good memory.

21. The ISRA defending the only gun organization that more of a “gun rights organization in name only” than they are.

22. I have no doubt that some NRA leadership are benefitting from their positions. They have allowed some legislation to slip through their fingers that may set bad precedence.
    However, how do other organizations replace NRA’s political leverage ? NRA still influences folks in the halls of Congress. Is there another organization that has the same affect with our representatives ?

    • GOA GUN OWNERS oF AMERICA. Unlike the NRA they are actively supporting the 2nd Amendment. From what I have seen for years the NRA is only trying to scare the citizens and sell memberships. Steal money and live the good life!

    • “NRA still influences folks in the halls of Congress.”

      Negotiating Rights Away consistently influences people to accept privileged in the place of exercise of rights. They’ve made no big secret about it either.

23. I am not going to argue the issues. I am going to let my membership lapse if Wayne is still here one year from now! Not a threat, A fact!

24. My prediction is that the hysterically hyperbolic “They’re going to erase the Second Amendment and take your guns!’ meme is going to be shoveled at us in ever greater amounts in hopes that the membership will “Rally ’round the flag, boys!”, a common tactic when you have problems you don’t want to admit and seek to divert people’s attention to something/someone else. Serious questions concerning the leadership of the NRA have been raised and the membership deserves that they be answered to our satisfaction. Perhaps an independent audit is in order, untainted by internal politics. I, for one, do not intend to donate another dime or renew my membership to the NRA until I am certain that I am not throwing my money down a rat-hole.

25. You gotta admit all this is really rich; microcosm of the pro/anti gun debate…it’s facts vs. emotion.

26. This Life Member says get rid of Lapiere. He is weak.

27. NRA needs to rebuild TRUST by: 1.) focus on 2A Rights – keep the main thing the main thing; remember the purpose and mission 2.) be open about NRA finances – don’t hide behind loopholes and slick talk 3) be a good steward – use funds to support the true mission and the purpose of the membership of the NRA 4.) be servant leaders by representing the members of the NRA, not just the NRA Organization. Think of all the members of the NRA, not the NRA “machine.” 5) be pro-active – show true leadership in 2A Rights issues. Act on current 2A Rights matters and show a clear path to the future 7) be willing to welcome another people/groups who are law-abiding citizens/groups who support the 2A cause. Example: the NRA’s “rejection” of the USCCA. Choose your battles carefully – we all need to remember the true cause and who are the real enemy. Competition is good and healthy. Forces us to be better and to self-examine goals and actions. I’m hopeful for America. Thankfully, many states are pushing back against those who are attacking our Constitutional Rights. I thank the Lord that my home state of Kentucky has moved forward in acknowledging and allowing us to exercise our 2A Rights. Yet, we also need to be very aware that there are many serious attacks to our God-given rights. My goal is to appreciate my rights and use those rights by being a responsible and law-abiding gun owner. That requires me to be educated and involved to protect my rights. I can’t just sit back and have a “wait and see” attitude. Trusting that the members of the NRA (and its critics) are NOT content to just yell and complain about the faults and failures of the NRA. United, may the membership make their voice be heard and be active in improving the NRA. I hope and pray that the NRA leadership is wise and honest enough to take a good look at themselves and the organization. For the present and the future of the NRA being a positive and meaningful champion of the 2A, they need to be open, humble, and bold to make adjustments and changes. May God continue to bless the United States of America.

    • Well said. I hope some members of the NRA Board of Directors are listening, but since they operate in secret, I have to assume the worst.

    • Hey Revray, another Kentuckian here, I live in Jefferson County, and I agree with a lot of what you said but I am tired of Waiting for the NRA to do the right thing. They sat on their assess in the 90s during the assault weapon ban and they have been promising for DECADES to rescind a lot of the oppressive NFA laws and yet ZILCH. So I gave up on them a few years ago, my money is no longer going to fund the limousines, executive jets and dinners while they look down on the people paying their bills as hillbillies and rednecks. Until the NRA is shown that they are NOT abiding by their members wishes they will continue to do as they have been doing for the last 40 years.

28. I was pulling for Uncle Ted to be Prez. We need someone who is not afraid to get in the Cuomo’s and Bloomberg’s et.al.’s grills when necessary. The time is now to get some fire eating Bill of Rights purists in there to make a stand against the Anti-Constitutionalists in this country.

29. Hey Dr. Brown and Aleric. Amen and oh me. Thanks for your responses. It’s SO very frustrating to see the NRA’s Leadership (or lack thereof) in this time of turning tides of misguided views on firearms. The media’s constant use of false information is making inroads in public opinion. Any subject can now be “googled” or “youtubed.” Truth is still truth. Sadly, the attitude has become “don’t confuse me with facts.” Any basic research on firearm issues will make VOID the “common sense” gun control politicians demand. Perceptions and emotions rule the hearts and minds of many Americans. Politicians use people’s emotions to make anything firearm related toxic. As with any organization, the NRA has a history of good and bad times. It’s contribution to firearm safety, training instructors, competitive shooting events, and educational programs are not to be over looked. Nor can it flaws and failures. Again, as with any organization, money will turn heads (and hearts) and reveal true agendas of people. Hopefully, NRA members and all the State Associations can get the full attention of the NRA’s Leadership. In my humble opinion, with the authority of our God-given rights and our Constitution under assault, I MUST remain alert, positive, and active. There’s too much at risk to give up. Yes, I must be realistic, but I also must remain hopeful. The future of our Nation demands that we be ready for our civic duty, appreciate our liberties and live in orderly freedom. So many have sacrificed much for our rights. Shame on me if I don’t do my part. I want my two precious Grandchildren to grow up and live in the land of the free and the home of the brave. With Almighty God’s help, may it be so.

30. FOX news reports …

    National Rifle Association CEO Wayne LaPierre charged the organization’s ad agency more than $240,000 for expenses related to trips he took to Italy, Hungary, the Bahamas and other locales without providing adequate documentation, according to a letter from the ad agency given to the group’s board last week and described by people familiar with the matter.

31. The average American Gun Owner is too Frugal to spend the paltry sum of membership in the NRA to save a gun collection worth thousands. The average American is unaware of the reality of “Realpolitik”. Yes there is graft and corruption in all big organizations its a fact of life. Get over it because failure to see the real danger of complete gun confiscation is a failure to see the forest for the trees, a common affliction with Conservatives.

    If the NRA manages to hold on to its organization for just another 12 months when things get serious with the Dems they will unveil their future plans for complete annihilation of the Second Amendment, then the back woods people will come screaming to the NRA to save their frugal asses once again. Lets hope this time its not too late and not at the late hour of the doomsday scenario that is soon to unfold with a vengeance that far out weighs the likes of any anti-gun assault and barrage that came before and this time will make the battle of Verdun look like a weak and anemic fireworks display. In other words in the vernacular of the back woodsman “You ain’t seen nothin yet from the Liberals”. For now the Dems diplomacy is merely subterfuge masquerading as politeness and moderation. Soon Dem Vader will drop his black cloak of deception and clench his fist causing gun owners choke on their own frugality. In a galaxy far, far , away there was once a planet where ordinary citizens once were allowed to own firearms. Dah, dah dah dah di dah dah dit dah.

    Realpolitik (from German: real; “realistic”, “practical”, or “actual”; and Politik; “politics”, German pronunciation: [ʁeˈaːlpoliˌtiːk]) is politics or diplomacy based primarily on considerations of given circumstances and factors, rather than explicit ideological notions or moral and ethical premises. In this respect, it shares aspects of its philosophical approach with those of realism and pragmatism. It is often simply referred to as “pragmatism” in politics, e.g. “pursuing pragmatic policies”. The term Realpolitik is sometimes used pejoratively to imply politics that are perceived as coercive, amoral, or Machiavellian.[1]

    • “The average American Gun Owner is too Frugal to spend the paltry sum of membership in the NRA to save a gun collection worth thousands. The average American is unaware of the reality of “Realpolitik”.”

      The average gun owner should be too smart to send money to an organization that just might meet the RICO statutes.

      All the “defense” of the NRA amounts to, “They’re better than nothing.”, an assumption not provable at the moment. Underlying the “better than nothing” mantra is a belief that if NRA disappears, gun owners will be defenseless against the politics of the gun-grabbers. This assumption is further founded on the idea that without NRA, members would not be able, likely, or smart enough to seek out useful alternatives. Suddenly, the former NRA members would just fold up and cry. This idea completely ignores the proven ability of humans (including former members of NRA) to adapt and flourish.

      If NRA evaporates, why would the natural course not be for former members to join GOA, GSL, SAF,? Are 5 million former NRA members going to disperse their money so far and wide supporting pro-gun organizations, that the influence of the 5 million will so weak as to not matter at all? Based on what evidence/proof?

      No one in battle is indispensable, even the NRA. And if that is the case POTG are doomed. The indispensable person in battle is the weakest point in the force, and the result of poor preparation, poor understanding of how battles are managed, poor leadership, poor execution.

      The NRA does serve as an effective and useful piece of flak bait; credit for that. Let the lefties spend their money and energy crashing against that section of rip rap. The real weapon against anti-gunners is the legislature, local, state and federal. If we cannot win the legislative battle to reverse the slide of constitutional protections, no amount of money in a single hand will do it for us.

      • “The real weapon against anti-gunners is the legislature, local, state and federal. If we cannot win the legislative battle to reverse the slide of constitutional protections, no amount of money in a single hand will do it for us.”

        You answered your own question so to speak. Without NRA influence, terror against politicians re-elections and payola into the greedy politicians pockets gun owners are doomed. Its just that simple. Once again “Realpolitik” and once again without the NRA we gun owners do not have a snowballs chance in hell of defeating Dem Vader.

        • “…without the NRA we gun owners do not have a snowballs chance in hell of defeating Dem Vader.”

          Comes to mind…
          If for salvation of our constitution, we only have hope in the NRA, “….then we are of all people most miserable and to be pitied.'”

        • “Comes to mind…
          If for salvation of our constitution, we only have hope in the NRA, “….then we are of all people most miserable and to be pitied.’”

          Sam, History has shown over and over we cannot rely on the power mad Supreme Court that has consistently voted according to Public Opinion on many subjects and their desire to exercise complete control over the population. The U.S. Government runs on corruption and fear of retribution and once again I say to everyone, “The NRA are masters of using these tools against the greed monger politicians who have no morals, no compassion and no allegiance to the Constitution or any other laws. They are interested in accumulating as much wealth as they can and he who pays are the people they serve as they are all professional prostitutes , devoid of any morals, humanity, decency or compassion for their fellow man, they are the lowest form of scum on the planet and are the first to betray you when you stop paying the tribute they demand of unlimited loot to fill their greed monger pockets and without the threat of losing their life time golden goose jobs during election time. This is the reality of a representative government which is a complete mockery of a true Democracy, a chance forever lost when the Founding Father Gangster Criminal Businessmen started the American Revolution that only benefited them not the common man. We are the most corrupt Industrialized Nation on the planet that actually makes it legal to bribe politicians at the expense of the well being of the common working man who’s Constitutional rights have been shown to be a cruel joke written on an aging piece of decaying paper under glass and defecated on by the courts and ignored by the corrupt criminal politicians.

          Again in the U.S. corruption and blind greed make the rules and the NRA knows how to play the game and win. I remind you on how many times has the NRA has defeated anti-gun politicians and installed pro-gun people. The NRA has done so numerous times but how soon we all forget the good that they have done. Relying on the financially half starved yapping dogs of minor pro-gun organizations is akin to showing up at the Indianapolis 500 with a 4 cylinder Ford Escort and trying to beat a modern high horsepower race car. Its laughable and only a group of fools would think of competing with such a vehicle i.e. the yapping small dogs of minor pro-gun organizations. It is only the extreme power of a political Lion, the NRA that makes corrupt criminal politicians sit up and take notice that they will suffer from NRA wrath if they betray us. Fear and Payola rule the world and always have and criminal politicians fear the fangs and claws of the NRA because they know they can and will be devoured if they betray us. NRA History has already proven it.

          • You describe a truly hopeless situation. I agree, but for different reasons.

            That said, why do you use your time here?

        • “That said, why do you use your time here?”

          to Sam.

          I used my time here to educate and to try and save Second Amendment Rights. I am sure you have heard of “divide and conquer” but so many here are unaware of this reality and how at present the anti-gun forces are now in 7th Heaven. For the first time in the long history of the NRA they know they may have a real chance to destroying it which they know is the major and final step towards their victory over the rights of the Second Amendment. What is tragic and almost unfathomable is that so many gun owners are completely oblivious to reality and the impending all out fight over the Second Amendment in just a few short months. This time waiting too long to suddenly panic and join the NRA may result in the total bankruptcy of the organization. Yes they have made mistakes and yes there was corruption but do you throw out the baby with the bath water and welcome the confiscation of all your firearms? In my long lifetime and my long years of membership dating back decades this is truly the most serious crisis the NRA has ever faced and yes much of it was there own fault but to abandon them now is to forever seal our own doom.

          Perhaps I am being to critical of the NRA haters because they obviously have no knowledge of the past and how close we came several times even with a strong NRA to losing the Second Amendment. If the haters were aware of the past they would not be damning the NRA but standing by them even if they have to grit their teeth over the current exposed corruption and mismanagement. Too make the claim we do not need them or even more ridiculous that we can get along without them or that minor pro-gun organizations will have the same clout, the same amount of funds and the same strong political contacts the NRA has built up over the decades is to live in a fantasy world devoid of all reason and knowledge of history.

          Again if we lose the NRA we lose everything and you will be surprised how fast the final end will come. If you think the piles of confiscated weapons in Australia was huge, wait until you see the railroad trains full of confiscated guns in the next few months after the next election, it will dwarf every Dictator worldwide in the past that confiscated firearms.

          The tragedy is that with almost 64 per cent of Americans today who do not own firearms and who do not understand why anyone would even want one, the public support for a confiscation would be far higher than most gun owners could ever even dare imagine. The government would not have to coerce or threaten gun owners to turn in their guns, their own non gun owning neighbors and even relatives and co- workers would be turning them in if they did not comply with confiscation laws.

          Remember too that in suburban and city areas where the bulk of the population lives each and every person now is photographed as many as 300 times a day. Fat chance you would be able to join a resistance group even if you had nothing financially to lose.

          There would be no use burying or hording weapons when the government was informed by the public at large that you had them. And remember too that in the age of computers there is absolutely nothing that the government does not already know about you. They know you hang out on gun forums, they know the gun magazine subscriptions you receive, they know of the pro-gun organizations you belong to, they know if you are a hunter with a hunting license, they know if you have ever bought a box of ammo on a credit card at Walmart. As you can see if the NRA is destroyed you are doomed, its just that simple.

          And remember Cops and the Jack booted Military Storm troopers do what they are told to do and they will tell you that you will obey the new rules “or else” and just as in WWII when the Nazi’s said “turn in your guns or else” everyone knew what “or else meant”. This cold hard fact was related to me personally by my father who was in WWII and saw first hand what “or else” really meant. The bluster and bravo of resistance rhetoric bullshit fantasies alluding to a silly new revolution evaporates when neighbors see heavily armed storm troopers and helicopter gunships burning down houses , Branch Dravidian style and corpses hanging from poles. It would all be over and complete in just a matter of weeks with steel smelters working day and night to just attempt to keep up with the railway trains full of confiscated firearms. Outside of the smelters a sign would read : “Work makes you free”. Think about this next time you hear someone say “Screw the NRA”.

          • The civil war between tyranny and liberty will go on, no matter what happens to the NRA. As noted, if all we have is NRA between gun owners and gun confiscation, we are doomed. No reason to panic. If the entire republic is dependent on NRA doing the right thing, being successful even, we are in bitter poor shape; irrdeemable. If the entirety of freedom rests on NRA, we are just arguing over seats to watch the bon fire.

            The bottom line is the NRA is a mirror of the Republicrat party…watching over the slow death of the nation, while enjoying the perks of status. We have earned our reward.

      • ““The average American Gun Owner is too Frugal to spend the paltry sum of membership in the NRA to save a gun collection worth thousands. The average American is unaware of the reality of “Realpolitik”.”

        The average gun owner should be too smart to send money to an organization that just might meet the RICO statutes.”

        Vlad’s exactly correct. If you’d been out there for 30 some years dealing directly with thousands of people at gun shows, political events and crowds like I have been you’d come to realize this. I will place this experience and knowledge against anything that can be brought to bear from mere gun pundits who’ve never spent a second trying to organize or promote the 2nd Amendment in a large public arena. Normal weekends I deal with about 6000 diverse, often “cheap” folk. The charges the majority of the NRA haters around here bring don’t even enter the thought process of the average American gun owner. WTH? Guns have always been legal, right? Unless there’s a run on .22 LR or cheap 9mm- then I’d better buy way more than I can ever shoot and hide it under my bed.

        • “Unless there’s a run on .22 LR or cheap 9mm- then I’d better buy way more than I can ever shoot and hide it under my bed.”

          Can’t fault that reasoning.

32. I can tell you here in PA the NRA is no where to be found. Unless we get something done and then the NRA rep shows up for the photo op with the governor while the guys who really got it done get shoved out the door.

    NRA has supported every anti gun law to get passed in the US and some anti free speech laws as well, as long as NRA itself was exempted. I gave up on them decades ago but they have become a religion for some gun owners.

    As for stopping bad legislation, that was done by millions of gun owners emailing, calling, faxing, and writing to their reps and senators after GOA, JPFO, SAF, and others put the word out.

    I have stood outside gun shows handing out voters guides for state and local elections and had guys tell me “The NRA didn’t send me anything about it. Must not be important.” and walk away. That’s how we got a leftist state supreme court in PA in 2017. NRA Fudds wouldn’t Fuc**** listen and didn’t bother to go vote.

    One other thing. The NRA selling out NFA, and bump stock owners looks exactly like what happened in England. Gun owners in England were divided up by type of firearm and none of them supported each other. When they took the semi auto rifles the handgun and shotgun and non semi rifle users didn’t support them. The hunters didn’t support the milsurp collectors. The rifles and shot gunners didn’t support the hand gunners. Next thing you know everything was gone.

    It was a repeat of Martin Niemöller’s poem”

    First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

    Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

    Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

    Our version would be:

    First they came for the NFA owners , and I did not speak out—because I was not an NFA owner.

    Then they came for the bump stocks, and I did not speak out— because I was did not own a bump stock.

    Then they came for the semi auto rifles, and I did not speak out—because I did not have a semi auto rifle.

    Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

    If NRA is going to survive it had better get it’s shit together. If it wants to recruit those of us actually fighting the fight in state capitals across the country then it had better start supporting all gun owners and get it’s favorite legislators to push some pro gun legislation expanding our rights for a change.

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