Police TASER (courtesy policemag.com)

I’ve learned my lesson. I will not pronounce “good shoot” or “bad shoot” when reporting Officer Involved Shootings (OIS). For one thing, many members of TTAG’s Armed Intelligentsia are a lot more knowledgable of and experienced with these types of incidents than your humble scribe. Second, I’m from Rhode Island. When it comes to tales of criminality, I know that the first story is never the real story. This one from ktar.com sounds decidedly dodgy . . .

A 37-year-old officer was doing off-duty security near Interstate 17 and Cactus Road with another officer at an apartment complex when Duncan and 40-year-old Jonathan Parker showed suspicious behavior

The two officers chased the two suspects and scuffled with Duncan before he grabbed one of the officer’s Tasers and electrocuted the officer.

A suspiciously vague description of suspicious behavior if you ask me. And I’m sure our friends at TASER would prefer a different term for using a “shaped pulse” on a human subject. Electrically incapacitated? Anyway . . .

The officer said Duncan then aimed the Taser at his head and demanded his release.

The officer said he used his firearm on Duncan, who died at a hospital.

“As officers, that is the most vulnerable time that we have. So one can only imagine what could’ve occurred,” Thompson said.

The 37-year-old officer was treated and released and is on administrative leave.

Police arrested Parker, who has an outstanding misdemeanor warrant.

So a [presumed] bad guy Tased a cop, threatened to Tase him again and got a bad case of lead poisoning for his efforts. Again, I’m sure some readers will say that the as-always-unnamed, off-duty cop had just cause to let loose the dogs of war. But it does make you wonder what exactly went down, and why we the people, never get the straight dope on OISs.

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127 COMMENTS

  1. I’m not saying this is right or wrong, but the department I work for told us “if they get your taser, shoot them.” I personally would try to create distance if possible, as it only has a range of 25 feet

        • When do cops wrestle on the ground anymore? 5 cars show up for every traffic stop and anyone who doesn’t instantly “comply” with their “commands” ends up getting tased, shot, beaten, etc.

        • No matter how many cops show up by the end of the call, quite often the first guy on the scene is alone. Sometimes for a few seconds, sometimes for a few minutes. And as we all know with gunfights, uniformed or not, a lot can happen in a few seconds.

      • Your ignorance is on full display here. Situational awareness is no way keeps cops out of danger at all times – just like it doesn’t keep civilians out of danger at all times. It’s nearly a universal PD\SO SOP that if someone gets a hold of your Taser, they’re getting a case of lead poisoning.

        • Your lack of reading comprehension is showing. You didn’t see the mention of learning situational awareness from Paul McCain?

          Also, I hate to break it to you, but cops are civilians, even though they, and their worshippers such as yourself, don’t think so.

          As far as making comparisons about keeping out of danger, everything a productive (ie, non-cop) member of society does in self-defense is under a microscope, and they don’t get to call in hordes of backup.

          I’ll let you get back to playing cops, firefighters, and astronauts now.

        • @ Jacob,

          Firefighters and Astronauts aren’t shooting at you – so he probably has nothing against them.

  2. Makes sense to me. The tazer is simply a stepping stone to taking the sidearm, and we all know what happens then.

    • Agree. In pepper-spray instructor class for cops, we were taught that the next move a perp would make
      after spraying you would be a gun grab. We were instructed to shoot him once he used pepper spray on us. I assume that the same instructions are taught in Tazer classes.

    • As McCloud would say–there ya’ go! I dunno if everything was kosher in this situation or not, but I do know if someone was actively threatening me with a weapon that could completely incapacitate me and let him do whatever he wanted to after that, I would shoot too. I see from a post below that maybe the perp here wasn’t in a position to threaten the cop with the taser again. I’m taking no position vis-à-vis that point.

      • “I dunno if everything was kosher in this situation or not, but I do know if someone was actively threatening me with a weapon that could completely incapacitate me and let him do whatever he wanted to after that, I would shoot too. ”

        Agree 100%. I am sure that you would also agree that police or not, a victim would be justified clearing leather if he or she was receiving blows to the head.

  3. A taser only fires once right?
    So the perp was out of “bullets”
    You can re-jolt if the darts are still in the skin, but you can’t fire another set into the cop.
    Correct me if I have something wrong.

    • What you have wrong is that we all have to worship at the altar of the all-important “officer safety”; if an “officer” feels threatened, he is not beholden to the same laws/rules as the proletariat.

      Easy mistake.

      • I’m willing to bet if this was a civilian, you would have no problem with him taking the shot. Your hate for LEO’s goes beyond a dislike for authority. Did you take a beatdown at some time in your life??

        • For one, he is a civilian, two, your laughable liberal tactics of projection aren’t going to work. I – and many others – are tired of seeing thugs in uniform get away (literally) with murder.

          Cops that do their jobs and act like human beings aren’t included in what I’m saying; if you were a sentient adult that wouldn’t need explaining.

          Also, because you’re a submissive who likes subjugation, doesn’t mean that everyone else is. No one (supposedly) has “authority” over law-abiding people just because they wear a badge and a costume.

        • I would have no problem if it was a CITIZEN. Cops are civilians. People who work for a living are CITIZENS.

      • Even though all law enforcement officers remain, technically, civilians, when on the job they are expected to take a much more pro-active role in the discovery and apprehension of other civilians who are suspected of criminal behavior. This is, after all, why we hire them, train them, and pay for all that equipment.

        Because we expect, even demand, that they get up close and personal with potentially very bad people, and because they in most cases are carrying an exposed pistol, whenever there is a chance that the LEO might be overwhelmed or incapacitated, however briefly, there is a high probability that his sidearm will be taken and used against him or someone else.

        That said, I am NOT a LEO. But if I were on the street and someone aggressively assaulted me with either pepper spray or a Taser, considering the fact that I am almost always armed, I would shoot the bastard rather than risk losing my EDC to him and whatever mayhem he might perpetrate with it.

      • Jughead, you bring up some very excellent points. Unfortunately, this list seems to have it’s share of bored LEOs trolling online for excitement while they masturbate over the possibilities. They are, of course, followed by their equally Constitutionally out-to-lunch gaggle of “holster sniffers” who are more concerned with the appearance of being good little Brown Shirts than expecting any professional conduct from those who had sworn to protect their rights.

        As you stated, there is a core group of solid professionals, and they are not the problem, yet it’s the “others” who continually violate their oath and then defend their actions; they are the problem. Let’s see how many heads pop up over that. Even if five squad cars pull up to address one suspected perp, somewhere in the crowd there must be at least ONE uniformed person who remembers the oath he took and who can manage a modicum of civility. If there aren’t, shame on them all; and shame on each of them who stands by and does nothing while elderly people are getting tased in their wheelchairs …….. or handcuffed people sitting on the curb are getting kicked in the head and ribs by some slopehead doughnut chomper with an attitude problem.

      • Tasers fire once, twice or more depending on the model. They can be discharged over and over until the batteries die. Consecutive 5 second discharges. So the guy could have continued Tasing the officer.
        I wasn’t there so I don’t know the facts. Did the suspect actually try to grab the officers sidearm? If he was trying to escape, was he a threat?

    • Depends on the Taser, the X26C (Pictured) and the X26P (pretty much same thing, just newer generation) can only only 1 shot. The X2 and X3 fire 2 and 3 shots respectively.

    • i think a lot of those things can be used to “drive stun” a person, where you hold the thing physically against a body and trigger it, and it will function, but without firing the projectiles.

    • I live in Phoenix where this happened and I believe Phoenix PD was looking into getting new tasers that could fire up to 3 times. I think it was the Taser X3 if I’m not mistaken. I don’t know if that ever happened or if Taser actually ever released that type of Taser, though. But if that is the case, then that is most likely why the officer shot the subject. Good point, though, whoever mentioned Tasers only fire once. On the flip side, he still could have touched the officer with it and shocked him again as they are capable of doing that as well as deploying the prongs initially.

      In the end, I have to say this was a good shoot if this is entirely how it went down and nothing was made up or fabricated. If the subject is willing to grab the officer’s Taser, what’s to stop him from attempting to grab his firearm? This guy had it coming as far as I’m concerned. At the end of the day, I’d like to hope all officers make it hope to their families.

      Yes, there are some bad officers out there, actually there are a lot, but let’s not condemn them all.

      Just my $0.02.

  4. “Electrocute” means to kill by electric shock.
    So apparently the officer defending himself was already dead at the time.

    This was an AP story, which means it went past more than one editor who didn’t see a problem with the wording. You would think that the mainstream media, in its struggle to hold on to its disintegrating relevance, would try harder.

    • Yeah, I found that to be an exceedingly odd word choice, especially since I have never seen it used when a cop is the one holding the taser, and it’s a “perp” who has the darts in him.

    • Everyone likes to beat on AP, but dictionaries list the definition variously as “kill by electric shock” and “kill or injure by electric shock.”

      • There are dictionaries which claim that irregardless means the same thing as regardless, an obvious impossibility.

        Electrocute refers to using electricity to execute a living being. A compound word form.

  5. If the dude got his Taser, there’s a solid chance he could have got the cop’s sidearm as well. And despite their “non-lethal” status, a Taser CAN kill. I say good shoot.

    • I agree. Who’s to say that if he was able to Taze the cop into submission he wouldn’t have bludgeoned and / or shot him to death?

      Taking a cop’s weapon is a no brainer. Don’t do it. It’s one thing to argue with the cop. It’s another thing to take his weapon. I say good shoot.

    • In all actuality the “suspect” was within a few feet of the officer he shot, why did he not take the cop’s side arm when he was riding the lightning for five seconds. On top of that, why did the “suspect” allow the cop enough time to unholster his sidearm to shoot him? He could have just sent the cop on another five second ride… Something isn’t adding up.

      • I don’t know if the guy in this story was stupid or not. Never met him. I will say that in my five years on the job so far I have met all sorts of people, and many of them did amazingly stupid things both before and after I met them. It doesn’t have to make sense to be real.

      • He probably tried and couldn’t figure out how to unholster it. Most scumbags just pull up as hard as they can. I’m guessing the cop shot the guy with his BUG while on the ground and the guy was occupied with his main gun. This is just speculation of course.

  6. I’m unsure if why they chased them, more information is required. So I’ll hold off on declaring it a good or bad shoot.

    If he had been on duty and he and his partner had chased the two for a legitamate reason, then this happened it would have been a good shoot.

    • Another detail is the nature of their offduty security job. Were the cops in uniform? If they were plain clothes why would anyone do any differently than the “perp”?

    • I was gonna mention that, but I didn’t want to appear that pedantic.

      Thanks for taking that one for the team.

  9. This could be a case of bad chase but good shoot. A cop simply cannot risk losing his gun. We know that. OTOH, we haven’t been told what kind of “suspicious behavior” alerted the cops in the first place.

    Suspicious behavior can be anything, from passing a little parcel and cash hand-to-hand in a known drug supermarket area, to walking while black.

    • That’s about it. No idea from the story whether they had reason to detain. But a cop letting themselves get tasered is like letting themselves get knocked out. It’s incapacitation and the next step is the bad guy gets their gun and probably shoots them.

    • Actually no, walking while black is not suspicious behavior.

      I actually see that all the time, and I don’t wish to stop and talk to such individuals in 99% of the cases.

      Officers have to articulate in the report why they attempted to detain an individual for such ‘suspicious acts.’

      Walking while black doesn’t really fly with any judges I know.

      • Walking while lack and driving while black are common “reasons” for police stops. Here’s a pretty good analysis of DWB from the Minnesota Law Review: http://academic.udayton.edu/race/03justice/dwb01.htm

        As far as walking while black is concerned, use your own google-fu. You won’t be disappointed.

        I have no idea why the cops stopped the two guys in this case, but only because the cops aren’t saying and they are the only ones who know.

  10. Interesting side note. A bullet proof vest magnifies and distributes a taser jolt over more surface area.
    It’s a fun ride!

    • I’m not sure how that works but I’ve wondered if a shorting device (such as a small chain mail vest) could circumvent the effects of a taser….

    • dumbass. A good vest wouldn’t be conductive at all and would dissipate the shock and prevent its effect completely. even if it hit the plate inside there are layers between preventing contact with skin. And the really good plates arnt even metal anymore. I don’t know what your wearing, but ive been hit in the vest before and just laughed and shot back.

      Sincerely, a marine whos not a retarded cop who indiscriminately shoots civies.

      • Sir, not sure who you are calling a dumbass, but whatever.
        I volunteered twice to take the taser ride. First time was in a t-shirt. Second time was in uniform with vest on. Standard kevlar does spread the shock. Quite nicely.
        They are not nearly as thick as military issue vests. And I have worn both.

        Sincerely,
        A retired cop who has never shot anyone.
        (And knows how to spell)

  12. A few years, I volunteered to get jolted with a taser. All I can tell you is that when those five seconds were up, I definitely felt like shooting somebody. Terrible sensation, that. But then again, I’m not a cop whose supposed to be trained in its handling and use, so… yeah.

    • I’ve been tased (tazed?) as well. They offered to give me a free T-shirt if I was willing to do it, so I said sure why not. I mean, free T-shirt, who’s gonna say no to that?

      About two seconds before they hit me I distinctly remember thinking “Why the HELL did I agree to this?!”

      For those who have never been tased, it’s similar to the feeling you get when you’re simultaneously kicked in the balls, then whacked in the head with a blunt object, then setting caffienated squirrels loose on you at the same time. In short, it is rather unpleasant. Thankfully they had something soft for me to land on. It was a solid 10-15 seconds after it was over before I was able to move with any kind of ability. But hey, free T-shirt. So not all bad.

    • Saw Destinee ( from the Fate of Destinee channel) get herself Tazered on youtube. Can’t imagine doing that to myself.

    • A pain like no other. When I did my test tasing, I actually let them shoot me with the thing. Which sucks worse, if you can believe it.

      • Truly is. I didn’t get shot. They hooked one lead up to my collar and the other up to my shoe. Supposed to provide “a full ride,” whatever the hell that means. Nasty feeling. The electricity owns you.

      • No idea. Their idea not mine. I was fine with just the Foghorn Leghorn shirt for protection. Rooster, that is!

    • Phuck that! I see a taser in his hand, I’m cutting the hand off and then shooting him in the head.

    • Just a tax fattened thug using tax payer provided equipment and uniforms to make his own pockets even fatter. Government employees should be forbidden from working second jobs of any kind and should also be forbidden from earning any overtime.

  16. Yeah… Never a brilliant idea to steal a cop’s taser, tase him with it, then point it at his head and make threats. If you do, and you happen to get shot in the process – and you’re terribly surprised about that – well, then, you’re a fucking moron …and a proud winner of a Darwin award.

    Of course, who knows what really happened, or what ‘suspicious’ activity is exactly, but regardless…. you can’t do that shit. If the story happened as told (who knows about that, the ‘off-duty part is a bit troubling honestly), it seems likely to be a justified killing – just as if you as a citizen ended up in a similar situation. I’m not waiting to be shot in the head with a taser so the attacker can take my weapon. Are you?

    Our local police are just people too… and good ones mostly. Just as an segment of any population, there’s always one asshat in any crowd. We support them as a community, and they support us. After all, they are us. They live with us and go to the same Churches and our kids go to the same schools, and play on the same baseball teams, and on and on. Never separate the Police from the community they are protecting – like seems to happen in cities (and apparently in Rhode Island too).

    VF77

    • Note: I’ll probably take all that happy shit back if I get a speeding ticket tomorrow. lol

  17. Good God some of you are just the gift of law enforcement! lol…The point here is that bad guy took good guys taser and used it once and was about to use it again when good guy shot bad guy! Damn good shoot! If bad guy will grab and use your taser, after you are down he probably will grab your gun. Good luck on fighting someone and trying to “create distance” after he grabs and points your taser at you…OMG

  18. I’m sure the report and incident is public record.

    What more do you want?

    Yeah, I’m sure guys that ran from the police and took the taser from the officer and used it against him weren’t acting suspiciously at all.

    That’s awesome how you are always skeptical of the officer and always assume the suspect/ ‘victim’ wasn’t really doing anything wrong.
    I think you can judge someone with some accuracy based on their actions.
    The majority of people don’t run from police. And most that run don’t fight. And most that fight only do so to get away… usually don’t grab an officer’s weapon and use it against him.

    But yeah, I’m sure he was a good dude and wasn’t suspicious at all.

  19. so my question is why the double standard? this would fall squarely in the realm of justified DGU if it was plain ol’ john q, no questions asked… officers have the clear “go ahead” to shoot if they’re being overpowered by a perp. no difference here. a taser has the OBVIOUS power to incapacitate. i say “good shoot.” move on and quit demonizing the boys in blue.

    • Could you point out the “demonizing” part, because I missed it.

      Asking questions isn’t demonizing, but kissing police ass is just stupid.

    • first off if the pigs in blue didn’t have superiority complex’s and claim everything they see as suspicious behavior and go after anyone they want, they wouldn’t put themselves in a situation where they have to shot a civilians who normally wouldnt feel threatened enough to take their teasers in the first place.

  20. Ah nice to know, if this is found to be a clean kill that means I can kill a cop who aims a taser at me and claim self defense.

    Since they dreamednit reasonable to use lethal force against one.

  21. I’ve don’t have enough time to set the record straight regarding Tasers, but I’ll take a short route.

    Electrocution has been replaced by Taserspeak “total neuromuscular incapacitation.” It’s a pain greater than pepper spray, knife cuts, tear gas, USMC boot camp, etc. When experiencing TMI, you will not have control of your skeletal muscles, which will all simultaneously be triggered to maximum contraction. Secondary effects include falling, muscle strains, and death by drowning or suffocation. One of my former trainees inadvertently killed a drug user experiencing excited delirium because the man kept fighting and subsequently had a heart attack. The TASER / TMI experience was too much to handle for the body and heart to take.

    The TASER X2 holds 2 shots without reloading, and the rare X3 holds 3. Both the X2 and X3 can work as a contact stun gun without firing. The X26, M26, and C2 can work as a contact stun gun after firing. All systems can deliver multiple TMI “experiences” once the probes are in relatively close contact – 2″ or less – to the body.

    Anyone who tries to Tase me will be treated with lethal force.

    Regardless, each and every shooting must be judged based upon the totality of the circumstances.

  22. I know many of the regulars here understand this, but just in case someone isn’t familiar with the terms, ‘off duty’ does not always mean walking around on your day off in your regular clothes and running errands.

    An off duty _assignment_ is generally when a private entity pays the department so an officer will be assigned to them, in uniform and with full powers and duties, to perform a specific task. Guard an area with half a million dollars of construction materials and tools left overnight. Run traffic control for road construction crews. Keep people from fighting at a concert, etc.

    You can ask why anyone should have to pay for this, since police are supposed to respond when a 911 call comes in. The answer is that if there are three or four cops assigned to the area where you would like constant coverage, you may be waiting a while if those guys are already on higher priority calls with a dozen calls holding. If you want a uniform stationed at your business for a whole shift, this is how it’s done.

    • While true, what we don’t know is whether the extra security
      work was sanctioned by the department or if the LEO was
      solely on his own.

      • I suppose we won’t know for certain unless someone looks up the department manual of standards. Where I work, all secondary employment (jobs not done under the authority of law enforcement, like if I wanted to work the sales counter at a gun store) must be pre-approved by the chain of command. All off duty or extra duty (in uniform and with law enforcement authority) must be contracted through the city and is open for all officers who want to sign up.

        Other agencies may do it differently.

        • It’s not policy so much I question but his ties to the dept and
          more importantly whether we here at TTAG or anyone else
          should refer to him as a LEO. If the job was through the dept
          fine. If not, in my view, referring to him an a LEO lends him
          unwarranted cover for his actions.

  24. As far as I know, a taser shock to the brain is a pretty dangerous thing, I would suspect holding any type of electric stun gun to someone’s head is a threat of lethal force.

  25. How would a regular CCW license holder fare under similar circumstances? There seems to be a lot more grey area in what is acceptable as a perceived threat. If you were held at “taser point”, would the shooting be justified for most non police officers?

    • If I had a gun on me that could be taken and used on me while I was incapacitated, I’d say “yes”. In fact, if the guy had a pair of feet that he could use to stomp my head in while I was incapacitated, I would say “yes”.

  26. I’d wait to learn why the cops were chasing the citizens before I recommend anyone make any judgment on which was the good guy. Cops no longer deserve presumption that they are the good guys, though they can be at times.

  27. Wait wait wait

    Two cops working security start chasing two guys that they ADMIT they didn’t have probable cause to chase (you know what “suspicious behavior” is without a specific crime to be suspicious of? It’s nothing), TACKLE THE GUYS and start roughing them up, and then get so bent out of shape when the victim retaliates using the cops allegedly non-lethal weapon against him, that he plugs him full of holes?

    Unless it comes out that the victims were actually doing something that was suspicious of an actual crime, it sounds to me like the cops wanted to rough up someone who looked suspicious to them (black, poor, etc.).

    It’s an important lesson, though. If a cop decides to rough you up because you look funny, if you’re going to defend yourself you’re going to have to kill him.

  28. An off-duty cop working security is not a cop; he’s private security, enjoying no official immunity. Unofficial immunity, however…

    That said, why were the rented cops chasing the “perps?” In the absence of just cause, it’s at worst a badge-heavy thug getting his jollies and at best it’s still bad.

    Under such circumstances, the victim is justified in employing any and all means of self defense – up to and including using the non-cop’s own weaponry against him.

    Not that it’s smart, but it’s justifiable.

    As someone who’s been hassled more than once over a “furtive movement” – in my case having the temerity to glance about and guage traffic before opening my driver-side door – I take “justified” with a grain or two of salt.

    Not that I don’t respect intuition or LEOs in general, but bad apples do exist and someone is dead.

    I’ll be watching to see what “furtive movement” or some such will be used to justify the initial chase.

    • See my post above regarding off duty assignments. I understand if you don’t think that’s appropriate, but in many places it’s completely legal for fully uniformed officers to be working off duty assignments with full authority, with the knowledge and blessing of the chain of command. The companies hiring the off duty guys where I work are generally very happy to have it as an option, since it seems to work better for them than truly private security.

      If the law is different where you are, never mind. If you don’t like the law, work to get it changed.

  29. So…..Police carry Tasers because they are a “NON-LETHAL” device.

    Supposedly, a lethal shooting would only be justified if the officer were in fear of his life.

    But how can you be in fear of your life if the bad guy has a NON-LETHAL weapon???

    Seems like trying to have it both ways.

    Call me cynical, but I lived too long in Las Vegas where EVERY police shooting is always “justified”, whether the “perp” is dribbling a volleyball, sitting in a car, legally carrying a concealed weapon, or whatever “suspicious activity” might have sealed their fate.

    • Police don’t, or shouldn’t, call them non lethal. A rubber bullet, a spray with OC, and a Taser, all have the potential to kill people under the right circumstances. They are far less likely, when used properly, to kill- but to assume they will never kill, and label them as such, is dangerous.

      As for why it might be justified, look up the lists of police killed and see how many who died by gunfire were killed with their own guns. This is the reason for retention holsters, by the way, which most CCW folks don’t consider necessary.

      The logic is that because most suspects are trying to escape rather than fight the police, any suspect who is willing to fight and especially to incapacitate the officer is likely to be one of those who will take his gun and kill him. I don’t want to roll the dice on that any more than I would want a robbery victim to roll the dice on whether the suspect decided to leave the house with an airsoft gun that morning.

    • I believe that falls under the “escalation of force” description.

      1) Cop approaches you to discuss your “suspicious behavior”
      2) You attempt to flee (First escalation)
      3) Cop chases you
      4) Cop catches you and takes you to the ground (Second escalation)
      5) You struggle with the cop rather than submit (Third escalation)
      6) In the struggle you get ahold of the cop’s Taser and jolt him (Fourth escalation)
      7) You hold the Taser to the cop’s head and threaten to shock him again (Fifth escalation)
      8) Cop believes you and shoots your ass so you cannot take his sidearm (Final escalation)

      At the point anyone, cop or not, believes that they will be made helpless and disarmed, possibly to be shot with their own weapon, imminent threat of death or great bodily harm is imminent and deadly force is justified, regardless, generally, of how they reached that point.

      Looks to me like whatever precipitated the original confrontation, the perp foolishly continued to escalate the situation and got dead for his efforts. I nominate for the Darwin award, posthumously.

  30. Why did the second officer not Tazer the perp?
    In Arizona in a DGU situation a civilian may use his weapon to shoot someone in defense of his own life or others. The officer is going to have to justify his life was in imminent danger and the life of the officer laying in a pool of urine, stool, and saliva.
    It comes down to training. I live in the Phoenix area and I am friends with Three Phoenix Police officers and a Scottsdale Detective. I work in an ICU.
    You grab a cops weapon whether it is a lethal or non lethal weapon and threaten him with it your life is forfeit. Does it make it right in this Politically Correct society we live in? Could the cop have used non lethal force? Maybe but probably not. Seconds count and if those seconds are the difference between your life or the life of a fellow officer verses the life of someone willing to kill you then it is an easy choice.
    Details will come out soon enough I will get them from my friends and comment again.

    KTAR is not a reliable source of news. They lean very moderate and very liberal with regards to guns.
    KFYI in phoenix is the local FOX affiliate and owned by clearchannel. several hosts are second amendment advocates. Mike Broomhead and Barry Young. Barry Youngs cohost is a liberal on the second amendment but wears short skirts.

    Do NOT take KTAR reports as accurate reporting.

  31. I’m with RF. THIS story STINKS. Not enough information here. In uniform? Suspicious behavior? Electrocuted!?! Wow I don’t have a CLUE what really happened. To me it looks like a man was murdered by an off duty cop. But I don’t really have a clue.

  32. The cop wasn’t a “cop” at the time. He was working as private security. As such he should have been using privately paid for equipment, privately paid for uniforms and not had any more “authority” than anyone else on the street.

    • See my post above regarding off duty assignments. If the law is different where you are, never mind. If you don’t like the law, work to get it changed.

  33. I love this blog but y’all are some police hating SOBs. Led, by the Po-Po hater in chief, the “humble scribe” Farrago. It is beyond ridiculous at this point, the level of 5-o hate that is.

  34. Very hard to say what happened from the story; too many pronouns. 2 officers, but they never identify which was disarmed and which shot. Was it the same officer? It even sounds like one of the officers might not have been present at all for the scuffle.

    I would be very interested in how the tazed officer was able to shoot the bad guy after being tazed. Was he shot with the tazer? At what range? The Bad Guy didn’t just run? How long did it take the officer to recover from being tazed and then be able to use his/her weapon? Everyone here makes it sound like you are fairly incapacitated for at least a while after being tazed…

    There just isn’t enough information, and what there is has been filtered by the journalist’s “reporting”.

      • That is more complete….

        According to the story it seems the bad guy struggled after he was at least in the process of being cuffed. He tazed the officer (presumably at contact range) and then recovers(?). The bad guy was at least partially handcuffed at the time he pointed the tazer at the officer and was shot.

        Does that seem right?

        • Yes sir… that is what I assumed when it mentioned he demanded that the officer “release” him. Perhaps the officer as in the process of cuffing him when he decided he wasn’t going to jail. No need to worry about that anymore, though, sadly.

  35. Getting tasered doesn’t mean our incapacitated for hours, just temporarily. I’ve seen incidents where the perp has been tasered multiple times before going down, simply because they were high on a substance. Different body types will recover faster after being tased and others will take less time.

  38. I would consider use of a taser as an aggressive action, not used in defense, as a threat to life, due to the temporary incapacitation leaving you defenseless during that period of time to any and all attacks.

    • The problem with tasering is that someone with a pre-existing acidic constitution (and it is common), fatigue, oxygen depletion or even an electrolyte imbalance (which can actually be expected during times of exertion), can exacerbate more severe spasms, lactate overload can easily lead to fatality.

      “Thus, it is negligently irresponsible to continue allowing human beings to be subjected to Taser strikes, until AFTER those allowed to use Tasers are adequately educated how NOT to cause restraint asphyxia.”

      http://www.charlydmiller.com/LIB07/2006AugTruthAboutTasers.pdf
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactic_acid

      Since the average LEO is in that vocation because they’ve already proven themselves to be aptitude challenged, putting tasers in their response arsenal and expecting them to be able to diagnose their intended victims before lashing out in response to themselves getting raped in their childhood is just an invitation to killing someone. Makes one wonder how the police ever managed to function during the last thousand years without tasers.

  39. You’re not going to pronounce whether it’s a “good shoot” or “bad shoot” when reporting OIS, but then you say the story “sounds decidedly dodgy.” Sounds like you are still calling it a bad shoot to me.

  40. No one here can say for sure unless they were there. There general “Fuck da police!” attitude some of the posters have here is pretty damn funny, especially since it’s the same method of thinking that those who try to restrict guns follow. I mean, if one gun owner is bad, they all are, right?

    • Typical “anti” thought is that only the authorities need guns, they will take care of you, and are trained professionals. Stop laughing, they mean it.

  41. We really need more details to judge – the story says that two officers had chased and scuffled with Duncan. If both were on scene and had him cornered, then my feeling is that it wasn’t justified, as the 2nd officer was there to support the officer who lost his taser.

    The problem, though, is that the exact circumstance is ambiguous. Did they scuffle first, then split up when the suspect fled? Was the 2nd officer close enough to assist? Could they radio for more support? What, exactly, constitutes “scuffling” and “suspicious behavior”? What precipitated the confrontation?

    With just that scant information, I can think of any number of scenarios between justifiable self-defense and cold-blooded murder. While I’m instinctively skeptical of police spin, I think it’s way too early to judge.

  42. I just think that cops should be held to the same rules as us. After all, that is the definition of “Justice.” If A guy tases me and ten threatens to do it again and I shoot and kill him – is it justifiable?

    • Here’s my take: anything that puts you at such a disadvantage and can potentially take you out of the fight and incapacitate you like a TASER can is a losing proposition and can mean the difference between life and death, especially as a law enforcement officer. Incapacitation by TASER=serious risk of grave bodily harm in my book.

      • WPH,
        Please refer to my post of April 13, 2014 at 18:43.

        As far as the police, the “Fun Gun” reminds me of this sick twisted bastard I used to mow lawns with when I was a teenager. While the crew was having lunch, he’d be out chasing down a toad or some other unfortunate critter, lash it onto some hastily made crucifix, douse it with gasoline, and then fry the poor thing to a cinder.

        The mind of a criminal hasn’t changed just because we happened to have discovered electricity, nor have the minds of those who seek to vindicate themselves of the desire to torture people simply because they’ve managed to stay on the legal side of the law, as LEOs have. We can continue to tell ourselves that not all cops are bad, but when the rubber meets the road, how many of them are actually capable of doing the right thing and following their oath instead of ‘taking care of their own’ in a questionable situation? In addition to the guilty, we now have the complicit. Now, the number of the trustworthy start to plummet.

        I had occasion, back in the ’70s, to be visiting an apartment where another visitor had too much to drink and was getting a little noisy. The elderly couple next door would complain if the tenants smoke alarm went off in the kitchen. Nevertheless, we get a knock on the door by the local gendarmes. One of them is your perfect LEO; polite, understanding the situation and looking for a meaningful resolution; the other was like a rabid pit bull looking to tear someone to shreds. I couldn’t believe these two were partners. Anyway, I spent the better part of their visit having to convince the first officer to put his freakin’ dog on a leash before someone got needlessly hurt. His partner was clearly not fit for service that day.

        But back to tasers, there are clearly too many medical complications that can arise from the use of tasers simply because an officer lacks the necessary communications skills or has a hair across his ass. That isn’t what they are being paid for. If they wish to be treated like professionals, they need to act the part. Those who know what I’m talking about will understand; the rest of them will be on the defensive, along with their apologist holster-sniffing entourage.

        • BR549,

          I was just responding to the post by Anonymous regarding whether or not the threat of a TASER being used against you is a justifiable reason for the use of deadly force.

          I simply believe that if I am facing muscular incapacitation, I lose. I may lose my weapon in the process and would have no way to defend myself, potentially resulting in my death or grave bodily harm. Not an outcome I am willing to accept.

  43. Anyone who know’s anything about a taser knows if you get hit with one especially several times more then likely they are going to be able to get your gun and hurt/kill you and others. To comment on this post

    Chris Mallory

    April 13, 2014

    Just a tax fattened thug using tax payer provided equipment and uniforms to make his own pockets even fatter. Government employees should be forbidden from working second jobs of any kind and should also be forbidden from earning any overtime.

    I cannot speak for anyone but myself but id say you owe me some money. Here in ohio I paid for the academy and all my training myself I paid for all of my equipment myself and I have been working as a deputy sheriff for free. So every once in a while I work a well paying side job. I don’t get paid for the normal hours I put in with the sheriff’s office and I’ve paid for everything myself sooo you might want to do some research before you speak, it may save you from looking like a fool.

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