Home Blog Page 3702

Gun Review: Saiga 12 Semi-Automatic Shotgun [Updated 2018]

128
Saiga 12 Gauge Semi Automatic Shotgun

Firearms fall into three categories. First come work guns, which protect your life or feed your family. Next are fun guns, which are fun to shoot or you can use for competitions. Then there are curiosities, which you own for no other reason than to say that you own one. Guns can fall into more than one category, but it’s rare. The Saiga 12, for me, falls squarely in the curiosity category, mainly because it was so godawful at doing anything else. Let’s take a couple minutes and examine my $500 mistake.

First a quick note: This rifle was reviewed in as close to “factory” condition as possible, making only the modifications necessary to make it run. I’ve gotten some criticism saying that the Saiga needs to be modified to work properly, but to me that’s like reviewing the DeLorian based off Doc Emmit Brown’s modified time-traveling version. We’ll happily review modified Saiga shotguns, but the base needs to stand on its own merit. Now on with the review…

I had just come back from the Tiger Valley Team 3-Gun match in Waco, Texas, where our team had our asses handed to us thanks to our lack of semi-auto shotguns (among other things) — a team running Saiga 12 shotguns wiped the floor with the competition. These guys, actually. Here’s a video of them running the absolute worst stage of the event. Keep in mind it was about 34 degrees, the ground was soaked, and it was extremely windy. Everyone was miserable, but it was the best misery of my life.

After we got back home and dried out we were looking around the local gun show for a nice cheap semi-auto 12 gauge when we spied a dealer with a pair of Saiga 12s sitting on his table with a $499 price tag on them. Brand new, never opened boxes. Paychecks fresh in our pockets we decided to relieve the dealer of his excess metallic gubbins and were the proud owners of new Saiga 12 shotguns.

On paper these things are ideal for 3-gun competitions. The magazine feeding system means that you don’t have to stand there and reload each round by hand into a tube — just slap a new magazine on and you’ve got 12 more tasty treats ready to go. The side accessory rail (for optics) and semi-automatic operation are just the icing on the cake.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJzKUhlyscQ

In theory, the reliability of a Saiga 12 should be somewhere close to the AK-47 it’s modeled after. All the parts are there, and on the outside the gun looks like a standard AK. But on the inside the gun operates more like an M1 Carbine.

On an AK style rifle, the gas piston is directly pushed backwards by the expanding gases bled off from the barrel. There’s not a lot of moving parts involved, which is one of the reasons why it’s so reliable. On the Saiga 12, the expanding gases don’t push directly on the piston but rather on a “puck” near the front of the gas tube. The puck moves back rapidly, knocking the gas piston backwards and letting momentum do the rest. This system minimizes the loss of gas pressure, but it means the gas system isn’t quite as reliable as a standard AK.

We quickly realized that was going to be a problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM03MAIkEeM

The gun needed some TLC to get it running.

I was talking to SinistralRifleman (one of the badass dudes in that first video) a few months ago about the issues he was having with his Saigas, and he said that something along the lines of 3/4 of the Saiga shotguns he bought needed major work to get them to run reliably. Last I heard he was selling off some of his Saigas in favor of tube fed shotguns simply to have something that worked reliably.

Luckily all we needed to do was replace the major components of the gas system and the guns started running just fine. As an added bonus, since the new parts were Made in the USA the gun was now 922r compliant and legal to use with the larger capacity magazines.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwzV5-y8Od8

When they run, the Saiga 12 is an okay shotgun. Like any AK pattern weapon it’s a little rough on the edges, both literally and figuratively. The trigger is square and rough to the touch, the action slides like oiled sandpaper, and the actual trigger pull feels gritty. The gun comes with iron sights (IRON SIGHTS!), but they’re so small that it’s hard to use. Adding insult to injury the sights are a good inch above the top of the bore, meaning that trying to hit anything closer than 25 yards is a bit of a challenge. The entire shooting experience in general is awful.

All of those things I could forgive if it worked as advertised, but in reality the gun was neither useful nor convenient.

Like the AK-47 the bolt doesn’t lock to the rear when the magazine is empty, meaning that the fastest way to reload is on a closed bolt, which is somewhat difficult. The tension on the spring in a loaded magazine pushes the shotgun rounds up forcefully enough to keep the magazine from seating properly. With the use of near excessive force the task can be accomplished, but in the middle of a competition and under the clock it gets very tricky.

The other option is to manually open the bolt and use the “bolt hold open” catch at the back of the receiver. This little silver protrusion works the same way the bolt hold open on an M1 Carbine works, except horrible. Normally a small spring in the receiver will move the bolt hold open catch out of the way once the forward pressure is released, thus allowing the bolt to move forward. I have fond memories of the time that that very spring slipped out in the middle of a stage, stranding me with an inoperable gun and targets still on the field. Even better was the fact that, since the bolt was stuck to the rear, there was no way to disassemble the gun and fix the spring. Three hours and some dental floss later I fixed it, but the shine was off the apple.

It was shortly before that, when racking the action, that my Saiga 12 took a nice chunk of flesh out of my hand.

Ignoring the mechanical issues, the gun wasn’t even good for the original purpose I purchased it. I wanted a nice, slick semi-auto for 3-gun shooting, but what I got was something that dumped me in the same division as all the other people who spent way too much money on their guns. “Outlaw Open” they called it, where every kind of speedloader and gimmick you can think of is allowed. I’m pretty sure even machine guns are cool. For someone who was just starting out it wasn’t the right place — the learning curve was way too steep. I needed to step back into Tac Optics and I’ve been happily in that division ever since.

I tried it in one “real” competition before giving up. Here’s a little gem from that day. Note how I’m having trouble with the elevation thanks to the raised iron sights (and ignore the bit where my half blind teammate runs smack into a table and DQs himself).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OHagmpWRYs

Here’s another video from that match showing the elevation issues a little more clearly. Note how I keep shooting above that last plate on the right — I was holding my irons center of mass instead of compensating for the high sight radius and short distance. I knew better, but the second that buzzer goes off sometimes your training goes right out the window. The important bits start at 1:42.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqPPq7VNo4M?t=1m42s

That reminds me of another complaint I had about this gun. Magazine retention was a bit of an issue, as the magazines were approximately six miles long. They didn’t fit in any of my magazine pouches and dropped out if I tried to use a pants pocket. I tried using some plastic belt clips a couple times, but even then moving around with those things was very uncomfortable. Very. Uncomfortable.

There was precisely one day where I was happy I bought this gun, and that was the day I sold it. I paid $500 for it brand new, and sold it for $1,000 at the height of the Saiga 12 scare (when the ATF was allegedly about to make them illegal). Other than that, in my experience Saiga 12 shotguns are about as useful as a solar powered flashlight; good in theory, but sucky in practice. It’s a design with promise, but in its factory configuration it wasn’t the gun for me.

Saiga 12 Gauge Semi-Automatic Shotgun Review

Man, I really did lose a lot of weight since last year… I’m sorry, what were we talking about?

SPECIFICATIONS: Saiga 12 Gauge Semi-Automatic Shotgun

Specifications
Caliber: 12 Gauge
Barrel: 23″ threaded for a choke
Size: 45.1″ overall length
Weight: 7 lbs. 5 oz.
Operation: Semi-automatic short stroke recoil
Finish: Manganese Phosphate
Capacity: Ships with 1×4 round magazine
Price: $700 MSRP

Ratings (Out of Five Stars):

Ratings are relative to other similar firearms. Final score does not reflect the “average” of the categories but instead the overall feelings of the reviewer.

Accuracy: * * * *
The sights take some getting used to, but once you’re dialed in it’s not that bad in terms of accuracy. Then again, it is a shotgun.

Ergonomics: *
The magazine release is awkward, the trigger position is a bit awkward as well, the safety is actively looking for ways to cut you, the stock feels flimsy, and loading in general takes some major adjustment to the normal manual of arms. Terrible. Just terrible.

Ergonomics Firing: * * *
The trigger sucks, the stock is uncomfortable, and the checkering is too aggressive to fire this for extended periods without some sort of gloves.

Reliability: * 
Heh. Hah! HAHA! That’s a good one. Yeah, no. If the failures were predictable (high round counts, crappy ammo, etc.) I would understand, but it seems to jam for no reason whatsoever and often at the most inopportune moments. That’s not just me saying it either, there’s a good number of people who have experienced the exact same issues. Plus that whole thing with the bolt hold open catch was annoying.

Customization: * *
There’s plenty of places that will turn your “sporting” Saiga 12 into whatever tactical monstrosity you can imagine (Red Jacket and Tromix immediately come to mind), but there’s not a lot you can do without some metal working tools. A Mossberg 930, for comparison, will let the shooter swap out just about everything on the gun with a punch and a screwdriver. Two star rating for any significant alteration needing a machine shop.

Overall Rating: * *
Avoid this like the plague. Even with the cash I got out of it as an investment I still wish someone had told me that before I bought mine. In terms of being a useful firearm it’s awful. But if you like it because it’s an interesting curiosity then more power to ya.

But if there’s one anecdote that sums up this gun perfectly it’s this: My buddy and I bought ours at the exact same time. We ran them for a while, then didn’t talk for a few months. The next time we saw each other we had sold our Saigas and bought “normal” semi-auto shotguns. We both came to the exact same conclusion about the same time with no input from each other. In my business that’s pretty close to something we call “independent verification.”

Question of the Day: How Much Is Too Much?

21

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgaNDa-GJEU

Far be it from me to tell anyone how much they should charge for their product. Neither is it my business the level of quality they choose to engineer into it. I’ll let the free market determine those weighty issues every time. Take RF’s current carry piece, the Bill Wilson Carry Pistol, as an example. It appears to be an elegant 1911 made to extremely close tolerances. Something you probably have to shoot for yourself to fully appreciate. And if you appreciate it enough – and have the coin – you can lay out the three grand needed to bring one home. It’s your money, right? Then again…

Breitbart to Coalition to Stop Gun Violence: “Bring it on!”

45

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHslkhZWzUQ

I love this guy. No namby-pamby, wishy-washy, “let’s all sing Kumbayah” and share our feelings with the group crap. Andrew Breitbart calls ’em as he sees ’em. And what he sees is an assault on gun rights, specifically because many of those in groups espousing gun “control” share an agenda that includes disarming the opposition. Wow. I sense a disturbance in the force. I can hear all those on the Left that read TTAG readying their tar and feathers. But wait a tick. I think there’s some middle ground here, and before we get into yet again another flame war, I think Breitbart’s position bears some examination . . .

Chiappa: Hidden RFID Chip IDs Gun Owner “Forever”. Or Not.

42

Would you want any of your guns to contain a ‘permanent record’ of your updated personal information on a tiny RFID chip concealed in the frame and designed to resist tampering or removal? I didn’t think so. Chiappa Firearms, the maker of the Klingon-esque Rhino revolver and other guns, angered many American shooters earlier this summer when it announced that its firearms would be equipped with an RFID chip.  Chiappa America president Ron Norton donned his best asbestos suit to (try to) put out the ensuing flame-fest. By now, he was probably hoping the whole affair had blown over. Not so fast, Mr. Bond . . .

Site Update: Complete List of Gun Reviews

6

Here at TTAG, we’re always looking to make it easier for you to find the stuff you want. That’s why we categorize our posts and (usually) write good headlines. Even with the massively useful search feature (top right of your page), sometimes you just can’t find what you want. Which is why I spent a good chunk of my life that I will never get back tracking down every last gun review TTAG has ever done and listing them on one page, separated by firearm type, in reverse chronological order. Either click here to go to the big-ass list or just click the “Gun Reviews” link at the top of the page. Don’t worry, the link will always be there from now on and we’ll make sure to keep it updated.

Kimber Solo Carry Fail

80

My FFL took possession of his new Kimber Solo Carry today, one of only three examples that rocked-up to the dealer in the last four months. The $725 msrp striker-fired handgun has something of a rep for, uh, not working. The company’s website warns buyers that the pocket nine was “designed to function optimally using premium hollow-point self-defense factory ammunition with bullet weights of 124 or 147 grains.” Kimber specifically recommends Federal Hydra-Shok JHPs and tells owners to run the gun with 24 rounds before they shove it their pocket (or words to that effect). So Steve fed it 24 rounds of 147-grain Federal Hydra-Shok JHPs and shoved it back in the box, after numerous failure-to-fire and failure-to-eject moments . . .

Irresponsible Gun Owner of the Day: Delonte West [Not Shown]

12

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcy1LfiC5VI

slamonline.com has the 411 on Delonte West’s gun bust—straight from the shooting guard’s mouth. Well, as told to writer Tzvi Twersky, who has his own unique perspective on the bi-polar b-baller’s ballistic brouhaha. “Delonte West is an avid outdoorsman, likes to hunt and fish in the backwoods of Virginia, but that’s not really why he owned the guns. Like many nouveau riche athletes, he had hammers because he could afford them. The same way money buys cars and clothes and comfort, it also buys guns. It’s the American way.” Hammers. Guns. Apple Pie. Gotcha. “After the ’09 season ended with his Cavaliers getting knocked out by the Orlando Magic in the Conference Finals, West returned home to Maryland and set about finding a good place to store the weapons, which he saw more as collector’s items. He chose the recording studio . . .

How Do You Say ‘Douchebag’ In Arabic?

19

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGt0RnZcO88

It’s hard to adequately express the idiocy on display here in this little documentary homage to stupidity and mad driving skillz. Flying down a busy highway firing AKs out the window is only the least moronic stunt on display. Drifting and doing 360s alongside school buses and fuel tankers on the Saudi equivalent of an interstate is just a little icing on the mono-chromosonal cake. Do they not have Smokies in the Kingdom? Given the spectators already on hand, cameras at the ready, this was obviously planned in advance. Maybe this is SOP in the land of 90-cent gas. Don’t bother watching past about the 1:00 mark unless you’re a fan of repetitive tire abuse.

[h/t saysuncle.com]

Question of the Day: More Guns, Less Crime?

28

Yesterday, I spotted a story about 36 people wiped out in a Barundi bar by gunmen. I found the story in my local newspaper after the want ads, tucked comfortably into the very back pages of the paper. [Click here for telegraph.co.uk‘s account] The rigid news story mantra—“if it bleeds it leads”—does not apply when it comes to small African countries, even though there has been a lot of bleeding in Burundi. We’re talking (or not) about 250,000 dead peoples’ worth of bleeding in this small execution zone. Of course, “civil unrest” in Burundi has been a brutal fact of life since 1993 . . .

Gear Review: Glock Sport Combat Holster

12

I am always on the look out for stuff that performs well at a great price point. I don’t necessarily believe that one always get what one pays for when buying expensive things.  After a certain price point there is usually a slight performance increase associated with a massive increase in price. I like to buy my gear right at the edge of that curve where performance is quite good, but the price has not yet taken off logarithmically . . .

Defending the Self-Defense Case Pt. 5

7

[The following article was written by attorney Lisa J. Steele for nacdl.org. It’s republished here with the author’s permission. Click here for part 1.]

Third-Party Defense

Things become more complex when a defender attacks an aggressor to protect a third-party. In some states, the defender stands in the shoes of the defendee. If the defendee is, for example, an initial aggressor or involved in mutual combat, then the defender acts at his or her peril. In at least one state, the defender may reasonably defend someone who he reasonably believes to be in danger regardless of the defendee’s rights. Counsel will need to look carefully at the relationships between the parties and state law. If the law is unclear, counsel may argue that a rule allowing a defender to act reasonably, rather than discouraging a defender by fear of criminal prosecution for his or her good deed, is the best policy for society . . .

Just in Time for Christmas – Turn Your SIG Into a Christmas Tree

16

Look what the e-mailman dragged in the other day. For the low, low package price of only $259.95, you can now turn a well-balanced, top quality production pistol into a five pound muzzle-heavy un-carryable block of customized multi-tasking glory. It’ll make your SIG SAUER Classic ™ gun even more Classic-er. Even if you’re not a competitive shooter or tactical operator, can’t you just hear the admiring comments from your buds down at the range? OK, so you won’t be able to buy a holster for it. Don’t worry. It’s only a matter of time before I get another email from the fine folks at SIG letting me know they have a sling available for this thing. And I’m sure there’s a spot to put a star on top of that red dot. Somewhere.