Question of the Day: Light, Laser, Both or Neither?

1. No gadgets on my self defensive firearms. I have been alive long enough to know that Murphy is very real. All things fail, usually at the worst possible time. Anything battery powered is at the tippy top of Murphy’s list of things to go for. Therefore, I go with whatever is the most reliable, to keep Murphy at the minimum. So, a DA revolver doesn’t remove him entirely, but it does tend to keep him at bay.
   And mine don’t have any gadgetry, no matter how much it might be the current fad, nor how many fanboys say that I should.
   I do have such things on rifles and range toys, however….

   • Why is having a light that may fail worse than not having a light at all?

     • Because one tends to grow dependent upon it. Then, when it fails, recognizing that, and adjusting to it, will take precious time that could mean the difference between life and death.
       Additionally, unless you are a member of a well trained entry team of operators, having a light on your handgun will give away your position in the dark. I don’t think its a great idea to give your opponent a spotlight to shoot at. Much better to have your light in your off hand. That way one can hold it away from one’s body if the situation looks dicey. It also means I don’t have to point my firearm at a potential target that I have yet to identify(rule #2).

       • No kidding. No gadgets on pistols. Point and shoot. Best piece of advice I ever got from my firearms mentor. Very simple. Millions of non-operators can effectively shoot a pistol without gadgets. Why complicate this?

       • The advantage the 99.5% of the time that it is worth more than the <.5% of the time it is not working. My reflex sights have never failed in 3 and 4 years. My light is only a year old but I have heard very little of Streamlights just failing. I replace batteries regularly and and check reflex sights when I holster the guns. The reflex sights improve my scores in many drills.

       • Kenneth for the win!

         I could not have provided any more points nor said it any better myself.

       • to actionphysicalman, I would like to suggest(gently) that you remember that drills and matches are not self defense. They are games. If one likes a certain game, and wishes to be competitive at it, one must use the gear that gives an advantage for that particular game, or another competitor will, and will then have said advantage over you.
         But always remember that games are NOT a fight. Fighting has no rules, games do. The rules for a certain game will dictate the gear that will win. But winning at matches and drills is NOT the same as winning at a real fight, which is what self defense is.

       • Uncommon sense:
         Thanks for the kind words. I have been around here long enough, and read enough of your comments, to respect your opinions. Thus your words mean a lot, esp. the part about not being able to do better yourself. I think that puts me in pretty good company.

       • “Because one tends to grow dependent upon it. Then, when it fails, recognizing that, and adjusting to it, will take precious time that could mean the difference between life and death.”

         The same *exact* reason they recently required celestial navigation to be taught again at Annapolis.

         By hand. With a sextant and an accurate watch.

         There are currently serious questions being asked if GPS ‘spoofing’ had anything to do with the recent two South China Sea collisions with our most advanced ‘Arleigh Burke’-class destroyers.

         If not our destroyer’s navigational data being messed with, or the merchant ship’s being corrupted.

         (I’m inclined to believe a command breakdown was likely a primary or contributing cause in those collisions.)

       • I don’t shoot competitively but I do practice and measure progress or lack there of with drills and scores on those drills. Do you have another way to practice or measure skill? Surely you don’t get in enough real gunfights to use those for practice and benchmarks;-)

       • I am willing to try most anything short of finding a fight to see if I really do better with iron sights than a reflex sight. What do you suggest as a test? I shoot irons with my .357 (which is the gun I love most) and getting even a flash picture is slower than with my Five SeveN with a Deltapoint. I read a lot about and practice two eyes open iron sighting but with my slow and difficult focus in close I can’t get a sight picture worth a damn in less than a second and a half or so. It try point shooting but it is just not as reliable as having that red triangle below my target.

       • There are currently serious questions being asked if GPS ‘spoofing’ had anything to do with the recent two South China Sea collisions with our most advanced ‘Arleigh Burke’-class destroyers.

         That reminds me of them shutting down the Loran-C navigation system. Terrestrial based, very high power and difficult to jam (compared to GPS) should reactivate that system too.

       • “serious questions being asked if GPS ‘spoofing’ had anything to do with the recent two South China Sea collisions ”
         My most serious question about these incidents is; Where were the OOD, the Lookout and the Helmsman? Whatever might or might not have happened to the computer systems, surely no collision could have occurred if even ONE of these three men were doing their jobs, correct? Surely the Helmsman is still required to look outside once in a while yes? As well as it being the primary job of the Lookout? Or has the world changed so much that even binoculars are now no longer present on the Bridge? Or even, apparently, EYES?

     • ActionPhysicalMan:
       I do have one other idea that might work. I don’t do it myself, but I know other’s who claim much success with it. Pick an opponent whose skills you respect, and go at a real fight at different ranges with him, but use paintball guns or airsoft. Judge the results by feel, but this requires both to be honest and truthful, which means there can be nothing riding on the outcome except for knowledge. Even betting a beer on it will bring out the worst in us. If I were to do this, I would use single shot toys, and vary the conditions as many ways as my imagination could come up with. And I would count points only for or against myself, no matter what my opponent scored.

   • User preference, but a holographic dot should be an option.

   • Lantern and a flintlock bitches!!!!!

   • My best suggestion is to just be aware that drills are not real. Keep it always in the front of your mind.
     I do this by shooting range toys with optics and such, shooting for both time and score, but then I always shoot a few runs with whatever simple firearm I choose to carry. This lets me shoot up the carry ammo so that I can then replace it to keep fresh ammo. It also gives the chance to let anything fail if its going to. I effort to keep the arms separate in my mind and I choose a carry gun based upon different considerations than what I would choose for a match.
     As an example, if it gave me a match advantage then I would have a light on a pistol. But weight and bulk are not a consideration for a match gun. However, for a carry gun it is my primary consideration. Even ballistic performance is secondary. But that’s only me, others may choose a different path. Some can carry more without discomfort, and some would think that larger pistols/rounds are well worth the extra weight.
     In fact, that camp included me, but years ago. As I got older, and comfort/convenience became more important, my tastes changed. I hunted deer with a .300 H&H when I was a young man. Now I don’t even want to pull the trigger on a .300 or .338. As always, it’s different strokes for different folks. That’s why we have so many choices. One man’s choice is no BETTER than any other’s, but it might well fit that one better. Like cloths or shoes. My size 14s work good for me, but probably not for most others, or I wouldn’t have such a tough time finding my size.

2. Flashlight only on carry guns, surefire or APL for me.

3. Lasers are great for training and Hollywood movies — I love those scenes where the BG is lit up like the Christmas tree in Rockefeller Center and immediately surrenders — but they’re not really good for much else.

4. Just a white light because bad things tend to happen after dark and knowing what you’re shooting at is kinda important…

5. Lasers are terrible for aiming but they are great as a visual reference on a bad guy’s chest once he is subdued or complied and the threat is now at station keeping. This allows the defender to get the gun in a more comfortable low ready position while calling or waiting for police. Keeps your head up and situational awareness up. Bad guy knows you have a shot, you know you have a shot. Particularly if you were smart enough to be behind cover and/or concealment. The intimidation factor has a pretty good effect too thanks to Hollywood.

   • You have some interesting scenarios cooked up. “Station Keeping”. 🙄

     • Yeah. I kept my station pretty clean at work today. Guess that means I’m up to par.

6. I have a LaserGrip on my carry. Yup, sure do. I also have tritium night sights. Front sight post is where I look first. The laser just keeps my options open.

7. Naa guardian 380 acp Novak tritium night sights and ctg laser grip.

   With that 2.5″ barrel and short sight radius I couldn’t land rounds at 50 yards. After using the laser grips I can now align my irons properly.

   So they are good for practice. Practical self defense shooting? I don’t know. Never used them and hope I never do. I assume that they would really shine at night.

   They do make the pistol wider and in the pocket it becomes more noticeable. Kind of like a revolver cylinder.

8. The laser sight allows for one point of aim while keeping your focus on your target. No sight alignment while trying to focus on your front sight. The benefits to quick reaction defense situations should be obvious.

   • Not obvious. That should be obvious.

   • There’s a reason they aren’t widely used by PD/MIL.

     Sure it’s good to focus on the target with one point of aim at a range. But during a stressful event when everything becomes a blur and your adrenaline is going it’s not going to be as easy to pick up that dot as you think. Trust me I’ve been there. Plus with the possibility of a battery or electrical failure the laser is not as “obvious” as you claim.

     If you train with stock sights you all you need is to put that front sight post center mass and your muscle memory will take care of the rest.

9. I can see the utility of a laser in a full/medium framed home defense pistol considering that night training classes have shown me that night vision is gone after the first shot so those night sights are pretty much worthless but a better laser is still visible. I do keep a TLR weapons light and a handheld tactical light in the drawer next to the HD sidearm and I have had classes using both. I’ve considered a laser also and very well may already have one if I lived in an area of higher threat matrix. As it is, we’re in the middle of a quiet subdivision in an area of high gun ownership and very low crime and I like to think that reality, not complacency, is driving my assessment of need.

   But on my carry gun? Neither typically. Most SD situations are close and quick, often point shooting. I don’t expect to be chasing a bad guy and needing the weapons light to find him nor have the time for a laser to intimidate him ala the movies. I am thinking of getting one for my PDW carbine I often carry in my vehicle of late – use my no-laser-sidearm to fight to my laser equipped rifle….

10. I tend to be a minimalist regarding my firearms. My SD/HD pistol has some after market night sights on it and that is it. I know my home and land like the back of my hand, cliche as that expression is. That rather works in my favor should Intruders come lurking in the dark. I do keep a small handheld lght ready to go too though

11. They have a time and place.

    For carry I don’t use them at all. Just irons for me in that situation.

    For home defense I use a TRL-2 because if I’m woken up in the middle of the night then the ability to basically have everything in a single package, rather than trying to grab multiple items, appeals to me. In that situation I feel that less (stuff to pick up and maybe drop or forget) is more.

    • I am looking for the same solution. My edc is plain, I bought a hardy, slim pistol for a reason no need to complicate it. In the house is another story, I am not too happy with my current set up and am looking to integrate the pistol and light, not to be super tactical but rather for ease of access and use.

      • To me the light is the key. I went with the light/laser because it was on sale.

        Personally I never use the laser and don’t see that much utility in it. That’s just MHO on it though.

12. Trijicon RMR with tall suppressor sights as back-up should the RMR fail. I’ve run red dots on ARs long enough to think they’re worthwhile and have reasonable confidence in them.

13. Light on the nightstand gun, that’s about it. Don’t feel that lights are necessary on carry guns, and don’t really feel the need for a laser.

14. Hanging a light on my shotgun and fiber optics /night sites on pistols. I may someday get lasers…I don’t overthink anything. What’s important is being competent with my shooting…

15. Nice work on that laser grip, Crimson Trace. If there’s one complaint I have about Glocks, it’s that the factory grip isn’t chunky and awkward enough…

16. WMLs absolutely have their place for self defense. They allow for an optimal grip on your weapon, allow for standoff distance during contact shots, and can help provide positive ID when it’s necessary. That being said, they don’t need to go on every gun. Full sized carry guns, they can actually help with concealment by rolling the gun in. The problem is with compact and subcompact guns such as the m&p, FNS, or my own Beretta px4 storm compact. Their isn’t really any option on the market that is a, durable enough and b) puts out enough light to make it worth your time. I carried a tlr3 for a year before deciding the juice wasn’t worth the squeeze, and sticking with a handheld, (which should be part of your daily carry kit anyway). I switched to aiwb after that, got a sleek JMCK wing claw holster and couldn’t be happier.

    • As for night sights, I have a set of trijicon HE, but when you factor in that white light washes them out, and you need PID before you can ethically shoot, I find them mostly extraneous

      *the exception to this rule being if you’re in the dark, and your threat is silhouetted by light behind them, but that’s a bit of a niche application.

17. Almost all of my railed pistols have a Streamlight TLR-1 HL mounted with the exception of my EDC P229R. Unfortunately, I am partial to leather pancake holsters with a strap so if I want to mount a light (I’ve been considering the Inforce APL-C) I will need to have a holster custom made.

    In the meantime my Sig has night sights and I carry an 800 lumen Nitecore P10 everyday. However, the Nitecore will probably be replaced soon because I haven’t been impressed with the reliability of the tail switch.

18. I have a green Crimson Trace rail mounted laser on my M&P 40C that is my
    home defence gun. Pulsating setting on the perp is good for me in the dead of night. No running away from the green dot!!!

19. I’ve gone with the TRUGLO tritium / fiberoptic sights. They work for me, allowing a faster acquisition. I have an SR9C that I put the Crimson Trace laser on as it was on sale. I like it but i use the sights more often than not.

20. Neither!

    ALL of my firearms are plain-Jane with no laser, no lights, and no reflex (red-dot) sights. And my “battle” firearms have iron sights (no scopes).

    I chose this route for simplicity and ultimate reliability.

21. According to Tom Givens, all of the gunfights involving his students have occurred where there was enough light for them to see their sights. (The bad guys need to see, too.) Therefore, at most, one might benefit from fiber optic sights in place of simple iron ones. My situation is a little different. As an amateur astronomer, I like to spend my nights where it’s too dark to see my hand in front of my face. There, a light would be helpful to identify my target and to illuminate my fiber optic sights.

22. I was a police officer for 32 years. For a lot of it we carried revolvers and huge, rather inefficient flashlights. As time went on we got semi-autos, better flashlights, tritium night sights, etc. Here’s the thing, if there’s not enough light to see the sights how can you see the bad guy? If there is enough light, or if you use a flashlight or weapon-mounted light to illuminate the bad guy, your sights will be backlit and visible in profile without needing night sights.

    • Exactly so.
      “if there’s not enough light to see the sights how can you see the bad guy? If there is enough light… your sights will be backlit and visible in profile without needing night sights.”
      I find no utility in night sights whatsoever. Except for that they might make some FEEL better, while remaining functionally useless.

23. I love crimson trace grips but the Glock isn’t really the best platform for them.

    A light is more important than a laser, but just barely. Anyone who has ever had to do anything at night (even when just training) knows you need a light. A laser can been an amazing tool, especially indoors. In night training people with lasers are consistently able to get hits on target faster. You need every advantage possible.

24. If you cannot get the job done, in a defensive handgun use situation, without a laser sighting devise you should immediately unload the weapon and place it securely in the safe.

25. Why is it that no one has stated the most obvious problem with lasers and lights in particular?
    The second that you turn it on, you give away your position and escalate the situation. If its a home defense firearm night sights I agree with, but you know your house better than any intruder. You also know where the lightswitch is when you need it.

26. Gadgets are just that gadgets. I guess I.m lucky. I have excellent night vision and have never seen the need for lights or lasers. If you don’t know the lay out of your own home in the dark you need to get familiar with it. Turning on any light from total darkness can effect your vision for the split second you may need to use your weapon. Don’t believe me try it and see. Especially if you need to do it from a sound sleep. I know Murphy well. Never rely on anything beyond KISS.

27. I can see the value of a weapon mounted light on a duty gun, or on a nightstand gun. I’m less convinced it’s going to be useful on a carry pistol.

    Cops and soldiers are going to have to clear rooms and buildings in darkness fairly regularly. If I have to use my concealed carry pistol, the target is going to be fairly close by and in clear view of me.

    I do think lasers have value on carry pistols. I have CT Laserguards on three of my carry guns, the smallest ones I carry. It’s been a valuable addition by my Kahr CW380, in particular. I carry that one in a pocket holster,and the laser makes it easy to make accurate shots from retention. I think a pocket draw to retention presentation is about as fast as I can make a draw, and the laser makes for easy aimed fire. Getting it out of the pocket and looking for the dot is easy and instinctive.

    Lasers are also helpful in making distance shots with small pistols. The bullseyes of the targets I shoot appear just as wide as my front sight at 15+ yards. The laser dot is much easier to center than the iron sight. And the laser shows you just how much you’re moving. Concentrating on making the dot still is good practice.

28. The answer is both are good & useful upgrades. The tech advances of the last 30 years have made both practical & smaller. The addition of TAC rails has made mounting easier and holsters are now made to fit guns with add ons. The laser is clearly better than the night sight in terms of speed & brain processing for a non NVG user. Hard to see any sight without my glasses on. The white light ability to ID and blind a target is great to have & keeps the other hand free. Hand held lights may have more power, but that other hand is better supporting the weapon or dialing 911.

    • At least, in YOUR (not so) humble opinion…

29. Carry gun? Nothing except possibly tritium sights. Laser, flashlight, whatever just makes the gun bulkier and heavier. I’ve went to great lengths and expense trying to find a gun I can conceal comfortably enough to actually carry it. No point in ruining that.

    Home defense gun is a different story. I keep a stream light tlr-s on my nightstand pistol, and a fenix pd-35 on the pump action. I also have an Inforce WML on one of my ARs.

    I love lights on guns I don’t have to carry for extended periods basically. Never saw the point in a laser, but to each their own.

30. As a retired LEO, at the beginning of my career in 1981, I would have loved to have a reliable front night sight on my revolver. There was only one company doing them at that time.

    On my carry guns, front (only) night sight, no other things added. Not calling them gadgets or otherwise, just wanting to keep things simple. At least one Surefire flashlight in a pocket, as it is useful for more than just shooting. A number of LE trainers have noted that officers when equipped with lights on their guns, use it rather than a non-mounted light, when they need one, thus pointing their gun at anything they want to illuminate. Not good.

    For my nightstand gun (currently a Glock, either a 19 or a 30SF), and white light only. Again, simplicity.

31. A lot of luddites in the gun community…….

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