I’m not much of a believer. My father lost his faith in the Holocaust labor camps, my mother hers when she was orphaned at an early age. So I don’t quote scripture when I debate the morality of armed self-defense. As far as I’m concerned, the right to keep and bear arms is the right not to be killed (void when posing an imminent, credible threat of grievous bodily harm or death to innocent life). But our man at God Family Guns below makes an excellent case for a biblical basis for ballistic readiness. How do you deal with people who think religious folks support gun control?
There’s also Gandhi on self-defense too:
http://www.mkgandhi.org/nonviolence/phil8.htm
O2
Gandhi is a bad example for pretty much anything. In his later days he spoke against self defense. He told women that they should not defend themselves from getting raped, even if the rapist kills them, only then, he believed, would the cycle of violence be broken.
The man almost destroyed India, and, after the independence, caused so much harm to the country and her people, they’re still reeling from it.
We need our guns like the churchman needed his. To Kill crazy men with guns.
Mr. Byrne-but YOU are one of the crazy people with guns.
That could be a discussion.
God doesn’t interfere with the freewill of man. Sometimes men choose to use their freewill for harm; that’s where the gun comes in.
This
Not This. If you call yourself a Jew or Christian then you must ascend that God does tread on the will of men from time to time. Pharaoh did not want walls of water heaped on his troops but . . . should I go on? Scripture is full of examples of God going against the will of men. God frequently does not intervene but he does sometimes.
Isaiah 43:13
“Even from eternity I am He,
And there is none who can deliver out of My hand;
I act and who can reverse it?
Because God isn’t real. It’s absurd that people use the logic of “everything good is because of the God and everything bad is because of free will”. You can’t have it both ways. Either God is in control or you have free will, you can’t blame humans for bad things and then not give them credit for the good things.
Why u got to take it there man. Faith is faith. If my mom has cancer and i believe it will get better, I got faith. It probably wouldn’t, assuming it was caught late, but I can still have faith.
and people like you can walk up to me and say, “Your mom’s gonna die, have a nice day stupid.”
I dont particularly believe in god either, but you hard core atheists are just plain mean.
I don’t think that’s necessarily true. I hear a lot of arguments from atheism to try and prove God doesn’t exist through logic like yours, (the whole of God is all powerful then he’s evil, or if he’s not evil then he’s not all powerful) and while the arguments are certainly logical, I don’t think they can applied to, what I think is a more correct term, the Creator. There’s a reason the founding fathers used the term “Creator” in lieu of “God.” I don’t think our human concept of logic can comprehend that of a God or Creator. We can sit here a philosophically debate good and evil and logic all night, but we’re very small humans in an exceeding enourmorus and very old universe… while the Creator of this universe literally knows everything, and has made this existence. Our concepts of logic simply don’t apply in the same way an ants logic doesn’t apply to a humans. There’s also the fact that a creator may not be good, or evil… and is simply indifferent.
I find it curious that atheists are unmovable in their faith that God does not exist. Only an omnipotent being could know for certain that God does not exist. It seems atheists are declaring themselves omnipotent, but cannot take advantage of the status.
It’s not that we “believe” that God doesn’t exist. It’s that we haven’t seen any proof of his existence. Anyone who makes a claim has the burden of proof. You claim that not only does a god exists, but that it is specifically a Christian God with a capital G.
Atheism isn’t a belief. It’s the exact opposite. It’s a lack of belief in a god or gods. We don’t have to prove anything. Believers have to prove first that a god exists and if they are so moved, must also prove that their God is the best/only God.
Denton:
Atheist believe that God doesn’t exist [-a- no -teos- God] – ergo a belief in the nonexistence of God. Since you have a belief that there is -a- (no) -teos- (God) -ism- (belief system, principles, doctorine), you share an equal burden in the proof department.
Free will exists so that man can choose for himself what he wants to be. The existence of God cannot negate that. Lets say there is a God and he forces you to do what he wants, ‘good’, by forcing you he has done something evil. The only path to true goodness is one that is chosen by the person for himself. Forcing is simply not in the cards. Lets also split bad and evil into two different things. Bad is something that you don’t like or that causes harm without intent. Evil is intent. A hurricane is bad, price gouging repairs to the ACs of old ladies is evil. See the difference. Bad things happen so that people can choose to do good. Think of them as God giving you opportunities to grow your good/selfless side. People choose to do evil things all the time and rationalize them away. None of these things invalidates the existence of God. God can step in at any time but generally wants you to do it instead because you need to be better, not him. God wants us to become like him, benevolent, loving, caring beings and provides opportunities for us to develop those characteristics. Whether or not you choose to is up to you. PS the more you step in and help, the more likely you are to see God working in your life and the live of others.
As for carrying a gun, self-defense, belief in God: I will not shoot someone over my TV, I probably will not shoot someone who is robbing me. I probably will not shoot someone trying to steal me car. Turn to one of my kids and I will end the life of that person right then and there. It is because I don’t believe in God or that He can heal all hurts? No, it is to prevent the suffering of others that need not suffer at the hands of evil.
“God can’t be perfect. Everything he makes dies.”
George Carlin
God is absolutely sovereign over everything, and everyone in the Universe. Nevertheless, man is responsible for his actions. Remember that God uses means as a part of His Providential rule. We (and our tools) are instruments in His hands.
The whole Bible confirms the right and duty to defend innocent human life.
We bear arms be cause we love our neighbors. We bear arms because a man is required to provide for the members of his household. We bear arms because there is real evil in this world. Man has fallen into sin.
We bear arms because we do not live in the New Jerusalem yet. Christ has not returned, but some day He will. When He returns, I won’t need a gun any longer.
Whether we prevail in our armed self defense is up to God. Whether I live or die, my life is in His hands. Still, my Bible, and my firearms are in my hands.
It is s just like anything else. For example, I trust God to provide for my daily needs.
Yet, I still get up and go to work.
Work is the means of provision.
Firearms are a means of protection.
God helps those who help themselves. jesus commanded his disciples to sell their cloaks and buy a sword-modern version of a sword…made by Glock. Sometimes I wonder if our life is a “destruction test” to see what will break us.
When Moses led the Israelites through the wilderness, the men were armed with cycle swords and bows and arrows and spears, etc. Because you have faith in God does not mean that you have to be stupid. God knows that there is no cure for stupid.
Luke 22:36
🤠
What’s more: any man who tries to unlawfully impose his will upon me and mine is not doing so with the blessing of our Lord – and the man who thinks he is, is a danger to all free men.
I will fight him and I will do what I can to prepare for that fight; this will be between him, his friends, and me and mine – and I’m otherwise leaving God out of our disagreement. 🤠
Ezekiel 25:17 (well, as least as interpretated by Jules Winnfield):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2WK_eWihdU
This write-up on the subject has given me clarity on the subject.
http://www.biblicalselfdefense.com/
That was a good read. Thanks for that.
Noted, bookmarked and saved. I know some missionary fellows that told be they didn’t carry weapons even where it was recommended because they would go to heaven if killed. My argument at the time, was that the next people who the attacker killed might not be in the same situation that they think they are and they owed it to others to stop evil when possible.
I’m saving that too… very enlightening…
It does correlate with our modern debate regarding the Right to Keep and Bear Arms but also illustrates the fallacy of those some who oppose that right:
I’ve observed that many (but not all) opponents of the Civil right of self defense make no differentiation between a lawful citizen carrying a gun for their own defense and a criminal who carries one to impose his will on others.
“Are you a good person?” I ask them.
“Yes.” They predictably reply.
“Then you could carry a gun anywhere and never be a danger to anyone, couldn’t you?”
“But… but I don’t want to carry a gun…”
“That’s your prerogative. I, on the other hand, do wish to have the means to defend myself and my family. That you choose to waive that right should gave no bearing on whether I should be allowed to.” 🤠
“When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe.” – Jesus
Also why would our creator endow us with an unalienable right to keep and bear arms if we weren’t supposed to use them?
Yeah, but:
“When the strong man, fully armed, guards his own dwelling, his goods are safe. But when someone stronger attacks him and overcomes him, he takes from him his whole armour in which he trusted, and divides his spoils.”
Jesus was saying he necessarily needed to be opposed to Satan to exercise him. The parable has nothing to do with self-defense. Jesus is the attacker in this case and Satan the strong man. Not that it matters either way. You really shouldn’t look into an ancient book to get advise about modern self-defense.
That “Ancient Book” is the most relevant source for definitive answers to all of our moral questions that can be found today. The internet, however…
Not really, but you’re entitled to your opinion. Just FYI, the Muslims, Jews, and others claim the same about their holy books. Religion can be a wonderful thing for some people as a personal experience, but it’s not the be all and end all of everything, much less to filthy infidels like myself.
Sig in your pic for this article. I’m going to use the opportunity to let you know that the turnaround time for the P320 recall was 6 days. YMMV.
Simple answer? God helps those that help themselves.
Long answer? Free will allows evil men to do evil things. Thus, if you have faith in God, you also must accept that the same God created evil men and due to giving them free will will not intervene to stop them. This is the down side of being human and unless you subscribe to predeterminism, which makes all human choice irrelevant and more or less crushes the idea of free will or random chance.
Sorry. That popular quote is not in the Bible. God helps that are unable to help themselves. I.e. salvation.
Plenty of other support for defending you and yours.
It’s not a quote from scripture but it is a popular saying among believers. Most religions seem to have some variant of it, see “Trust in Allah, but tie your camel.”
Plus, it’s a theme woven throughout all scripture. God might provide inspiration or even intervene miraculously, but in the end it’s up to his followers to DO the thing.
God didn’t magic up an ark; Noah built it. God parted the Red Sea, but Moses got the Jews there in the first place. Being divine, Jesus presumably could have played the God card and fixed everything instantly, but instead he joined his apostles in trudging around Israel doing God’s work with human hands. There’s the parable of the talents, too.
On and on it goes…thus “God helps those who help themselves.” No reason why that shouldn’t apply to self-defense, too. Jesus did tell his apostles to buy themselves swords, after all.
This joke best illustrates the concept without delving into works-righteousness. You’ve probably heard it:
A man hiking on a mountain trail slips and falls. Unable to get up, he prays to God to save him. Soon, a nurse happens along the trail. “You look terrible!” she exclaims. “Let me set your leg.” “No!” the man says. “I prayed to God and have faith He will save me!” After the nurse leaves, an Army medic happens along. He too offers his help, but the man again refuses. Finally, a rescue helicopter comes upon him, lowering a litter and paramedics. The man insists they leave him, as God has promised to save him, and He is ever faithful.
That night, the man dies from exposure. Finding himself before God in Heaven, the man breaks down. “Why did you let me, die, Lord? I prayed to you to save me, and you always answer prayers!” God responds: “I sent you a nurse, a medic, and a rescue helicopter! What more do you want?!’
“Simple answer? God helps those that help themselves.”
Dang. I would have bet money you were at the least agnostic, Serge.
And that view would have been reinforced by the rather extensive education in world history that you have. (Compared to most folks who wrongly think they are ‘enlightened’…)
I can separate religion from things people do in the name of religion. The non-papist branches of Christianity have come a long way towards making their belief system and dogma a genuine good in human society. To me, belief in a higher power is a key function of the human species. Groups that have denied such a power, in any form, have inevitably resulted in a collapsed society. Even taking matters of faith completely out of the equation, there is something to be said for a polite daily reminder that you too are mortal.
I saw a bumper sticker once that read, “Please Lord, protect me from your followers.”
“Even taking matters of faith completely out of the equation, there is something to be said for a polite daily reminder that you too are mortal.”
This. Most faiths teach this and the “do unto others” themes. Makes for a better society, even if you don’t have faith.
“God helps those that help themselves”
…sounds a lot like god doing nothing
Sounds like a father raising self reliant children to me.
Why not both?
The only people i know who think Christians should support gun control are atheists or agnostics. And wayyyy, left leaning.
So biblical arguments about self-defense are wasted on them.
Never try to teach a pig to whistle. It’s tough on you and irritates the pig.
What? You need to broaden the people you know, or be more honest to yourself, and others about what what types of people want gun control. Lots (and lots, and lots) of christians support gun control, it’s not just atheists. To make the implication that only atheists want gun control is more than just foolish. I’ll grant you the leftist generalization though.
In fact, I’ll help broaden your scope right now:
Hi, I’m Mike. I am an atheist, and I think gun control is a really bad thing that postures a population to centralized authoritatiran rule. I am a social centrist, who values family, and knowing my neighbors. I do not believe any gods, afterlives, messiahs, and all other manner of supernatural crap. I also think religion is just another man made contstruct to segregate people… as if we don’t have enough of those already. I know that this life is the one and only life we get. One of the best ways to protect, and preserve that life is to be armed and effective with my weapon of choice. Finally, in terms of handguns 10 mm is best mm.
Now you know of at least one atheist who is not a leftist, and who is anti-gun control. You’re welcome.
My biggest argument, as a Christian who carries daily, to the Christian folks who fall back on the “trust in God” excuse is to use examples straight out of the Bible.
Did Noah trust in God? Sure, and he built an ark. He didn’t say “oh safety will be provided”.
Did Joseph trust God? Sure, and he also wasn’t an idiot and when he knew famine was coming he stocked up on supplies. He didn’t say “oh food will be provided”.
Should Christians trust God? Yes, but God helps those who help themselves.
You’re on the right track.
Does ‘Trust in God mean if I believe deeply enough, can I quit my job and stop going to the grocery store? God provides and all that? I don’t think so.
God provided me with a set of skills and a path to a job, which enables me to have my important needs met.
Luke 4:12 – do not put God to the test.
If it’s wrong to secure your own safety by carrying a g un, then it also must be wrong to fasten your seat belt, own a fire extinguisher, save for retirement, etc. If God will provide there’s no reason to prepare for anything. Try it and God will reward you according to your deeds.
Gov. help me understand Luke 4:12. Skeptically, it sounds like a good way to never have to provide discernible proof of influence on earth outside of the Bible’s own pages or even his own existence.
Is Faith the only option and Scientific Proof will never be offered?
I’m aware those are both loaded words and I think we can discuss the passage without getting into the weeds of the words themselves.
First, I’m kind of a non-practicing Christian these days, at least so far as participating in organized religion. But I had a good Christian upbringing and I have a faith, I just don’t put it to work like I should.
In context this was a response from Jesus to the Devil who was tempting him. But on a broader application, God is like a father. A father may give his son an allowance, but he may assign chores to the child. If the child doesn’t do the chores he doesn’t get an allowance. If we expect God to feed, clothe and house us, but we are too lazy to work, he MAY keep us alive, but we’re not going to be living a life of luxury. If we expect God to keep us safe, yet we do nothing to ensure that safety ourselves, why should we expect God to care? And if a (human) father doesn’t provide for his family (to the best of his ability) he is committing a sin. I should think this would include providing protection and not just food, clothing and shelter.
As far as ‘proof’ of God, I happen to believe that there will be a point in time where indisputable proof will be provided, but at that point it will be too late.
For me personally, it all boils down to this:
I’d rather live my life believing there is a God, to find out when I die that there isn’t; than to live my life believing there isn’t a God, to find out when I die that there is. Yikes!!
Also known as Pascal’s Wager.
Gov. That’s a good argument for why God helps those who help themselves. We prove ourselves worthy of his dotage by our good deeds. I worry that this gets too close to the “Being rich means God approves of me more” line of televangelism or that being poor is somehow a moral failing.
Yes, in context Jesus was responding to the Devil who was tempting Jesus to jump and see if God would catch Jesus before he fell to his death. Jesus was quoting an earlier passage where the Jews were punished for testing God and he was refusing to make the same mistake. But I missed the connection between “helping ourselves” and 4:12’s “don’t test God”. Why should we not test God?
Proof that God is real but coming too late is not valuable proof at all. If the Christian God is real, this is one twisted game of luck where being born into a Christian family in a Majority Christian country is the best way to not go to hell for all eternity. Because if you lack either of those it is statistically unlikely that you will convert and your choice to not convert is not because you are a bad person.
Denton,
‘I worry that this gets too close to the “Being rich means God approves of me more” line of televangelism or that being poor is somehow a moral failing. ‘
Bear in mind that ‘riches’ means a totally different thing to God than it does to man, just as who has the most candy after trick-or-treating has little impression on adults. Jesus said it would be easier for a camel to pass through a needle’s eye than a rich man to get into his kingdom (yet not impossible). There’s no sin in having wealth, but wealth in itself is not a sign of God’s favor. And the poor are often happier than the rich.
As to your second point, my God is a god of love. He does not wish suffering upon the innocent. Also, don’t confuse ‘proof’ with ‘evidence’. IMHO there is already plenty of evidence of God, just some choose to ignore it. But before ‘proof’ comes, there will be an abundance of ‘evidence’. Anyway, I’m probably an outlier here, but I go so far as to reject the whole concept of hellfire as a pagan concept and completely non-Biblical. Jesus said there would be a resurrection of the good and the bad. Why would the bad be resurrected if not for the opportunity to learn the truth and turn around? If you believe that there is a God, and that God is good, the rest kind of falls into place IMHO.
Gov,
I agree with you on all of that. That riches do not equal favor. I was pointing more to the strain of evangalism that asks for donations and in return you shall receive riches. Also, you’re not as alone as you might think as it never seemed that a fair, just, and loving god would sentence people to an eternity of hellfire for even the worst crimes. My wife holds to this line of faith that all eventually get to heaven.
If I die, I can’t keep believing in my God, now, can I?
I need weapons to protect my faith from others.
Now. Who do I have to talk to around here about this change in format?
Not cool.
My God never said that bad things would never happen to me. He just said that he could take something that was bad and turn it into something good and that when I pass on that there is a good and holy place for me if I believe, trust and follow Him. Because I love Him and he loves me infinitly more.
This is pretty personal stuff, but for me, all life comes from God. I was put here to be a husband and father and to do good things, in general. That includes protecting my life so that I can continue to do good things, like be a husband and father. Of course, I was also put here to protect others, like my family, from whatever may befall them. Loss of a husband and father would be bad for them (although let’s face it, my wife would probably re-marrry someone richer and better looking.)
The new testament teaches us to turn the other cheek, and I believe in that. But that is not inconsistent with protecting innocent life, my own or others, from evil.
The beauty of religion is that it can be used to justify anything and everything…
Even the religion of atheism.
Yes, any religion. Including the religion of Atheism. The Progressivism and Environmentalism are now religions as well. When a group’s entire justification for their existence is based on dogma and the dissenters summarily destroyed, that defines a religion. And they all use the same techniques in justifying their actions and existence.
The more I learn about the climate, the more I’m convinced that Al Gore is a false prophet.
I trust God but also wear a seatbelt, own a fire extinguisher and take antibiotics to fight infections. Trust in God does not somehow imply immunity from any and all life threatening situations.
Indeed. I trust in the Lord but my house is on high ground. I attend church religiously but I always look both ways before i go through an intersection. God helps those who help themselves. Amen.
It’s pretty simple, whether you believe in God or not, when the SHTF you will pray for someone with a gun to protect you or your family. It just makes sense that the faster and more reliable solution is to BE that person with a gun. God does do miracles, but he also expects you to be an active participant, not a helpless parasite.
I spent most of my life as a devoted Christian, but the more I learned about organized religion, the less of it I believed. I am now an agnostic, at best. I am convinced that the universe was created – though I am too small and insignificant to ever understand how or why. But that creator made us human beings, and gave us our lives to shape as we will. The creator gave us the responsibility of feeding ourselves and our children, providing shelter, etc. and teaching them what they need to know to live themselves. If we are responsible for everything else in our life, it would seem very strange and foolish not to accept the fact that we are also responsible for our safety and defense.
Do you expect food to magically appear on the table? Does god pay the rent? Do you fling yourself off a cliff because you believe god will save you?
I’m very far from any kind of theologianm but declining to participatw in any organized denomination does preclude you from being a Christian. or make you into an “agnostic”.
I’m also pretty sure that at no point did Christ advocate suicide. (Contrast that with mohammedanism).
“…declining to participatw in any organized denomination does preclude you from being a Christian. or make you into an “agnostic”.”
What I choose to call myself has nothing to do with the topic, actually… I choose to be agnostic. Just means I don’t know – no available hard evidence for any organized religion or their assorted gods.
I also choose to defend myself and not “trust god” to do it for me. I don’t need any religion to make a moral choice not to be aggressive, not to harm innocent people either.
Mama, he can contradict me, but reading that makes me think he left out a word, meant to say “does *not*”, rather than “does”. I think it was a finger fart.
OOOOH, a “finger fart!” I love it! I am so stealing that. I do that plenty… thank heavens for spell check! LOL (But I loath the grammar check… go figure. )
And yes, looking at it again, it makes no sense without the “not.” But I think my answer still stands. I can see/feel/hear the creation all around me, and inside of me. I live in the presence of the creator 24/7, considering the moral principles such as non-aggression in everything I do or say. And if I fail in that, I apologize (or make restitution) to the person(s) affected…
That seems like plenty of “religion” to me. 🙂
If You Trust God Why Do You Need a Gun?
I am certain that God calls some people at some times to ignore any concerns for their personal security. (Reference Jesus sending his disciples into the world with quite literally nothing.) What God most certainly does not do, however, is call all people at all times to ignore any concerns for their personal security. (Reference Jesus sending his disciples out into the world with a money bag, cloak, and a sword.) Someone who believes that God is calling them to ignore any concerns about personal security must not assume that God is calling everyone in like fashion, against the clear teaching of Scripture.
Second, both creation and the Bible as a whole show us that God expects us to work in partnership with Him on most, if not all, matters. For example the Bible tells us that God will provide food for us. That does not mean that God makes food appear in our mouths. Rather, He provides the necessary components (soil, sunshine, water, seeds) and we work those components to produce fruit. Fruit is thus the result of a collaboration between God and man. Similarly, God provides the necessary components for self-defense (hand-eye coordination, dexterity, strength, resources for self-defense tools/weapons) and we work those components to defend ourselves from violent attacks. Self-defense is thus the result of collaboration between God and man.
That is why I trust God AND why I keep and bear arms for self-defense.
I like that: self-defense as a form of collaboration with God.
I’m going to take a different approach, and say that the question is based on an unsubstantiated premise. Why do you think that mere belief in God leads to a conclusion that a believer should *not* bear arms in self-defense?
I think it’s a common misconception based on Jesus saying “Turn the other cheek”. Most people don’t get the idea he was just talking about a slap… I truly believe that Jesus would have and maybe did fully endorse protection of self and family from evil.
And a slap was an insult not an injury.
Ah, yes: “turn the other cheek.”
That passage has absolutely nothing to do with defending oneself against physical harm. “If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other cheek also.” Given that the default person is right-handed, a slap on the right cheek would come from the back of the hand. It is an act of insult, not physical harm.
The saying means that a believer is not to return insult for insult – in no small part because a mere insult is not a physical threat.
I’m a fairly religious guy. And I was raised on the saying “The good Lord helps those who help themselves”. I think that applies to guns as much as it does anything else.
God gave me a brain. I use it.
He also provided me with the means to arm myself, I take advantage of that.
I’m agnostic and rather relying on a gun than a cop that’s at best a 20 minutes away.
It’s somewhat on a silly argument. The Jews believed in their god. How did that work out for them in the 30s and 40s?
Yeah.
If your choice of self defense is believing in a creature nobody has ever seen, you’re not going to live very long.
Btw, that’s the same god that, when humans didn’t do what it wanted them to do, killed all of them, except a guy and his family, Noah. the same god creature took its anger out on all of Egypt, even the guy who shoveled camel dung in the streets, who had absolutely no political power. I wouldn’t trust a psychopath like that with anything, especially not my life.
I believe in air and radio waves, so far that’s working out pretty well for me….. No matter what you believe in, there is energy in the universe, and it never is reduced, only changed. The universe decides, it’s not all random, obviously.
No offense, El Bearsidente, buy your caricature of God’s actions in the old testament is only a testament to your lack of knowledge on the subject.
I suggest that you go and read up on Ancient Near Eastern cultures and learn to take the text in the context in which it is intended to be in. It is not wise to take passages out of context and then somehow transform them into 21st century culture and thought patterns and then proclaim that God is a psychopath.
And that’s not just good advice for reading the Bible…that’s just good advice in general.
But God still did those things. Are you saying that in context with other gods of the time he was a teddy bear?
He purposefully hardened the Pharaoh’s heart so that he could punish the Egyptians more. If he hadn’t hardened his heart, the Pharaoh was more likely to give in sooner before the plagues could be finished. Noah’s flood was the “etch and sketch” method of correcting bad behavior. Turning an entire city to salt, as well as the hapless wife who turned to look….
In context or outside, that’s not a life lesson or a leader we want. If it’s just the leader we have then we need proof. If it’s the leader you want then let’s talk about that.
Because just as good exists all around us, so does evil, and to the same extent.
Luke 6:31
I don’t actually believe in any god. But I do believe that the greatest treasure any human has is life itself — and the freedom to do what we will with it.
If you believe life is a divine gift, then anyone who unjustly takes human life is doubly damned. And if you refuse to defend your life and the lives that depend on yours, you fail your god by throwing away the ultimate gift.
Besides, this “leave it all to God” thing is arrant nonsense. If it’s really all up to God, then why do we bother to find food and shelter for ourselves? Why work or do anything at all? Go ahead and try to leave the essentials of life up to God. If you get any direction from deity at all, it’ll be of the “get off your ass and DO something” variety. Clearly, whatever god put us here intended that we would feed and clothe and defend ourselves (and each other).
Amen brother. You sound like a Christian, perhaps even a pastor! Keep up the good work 😁👍
Thanks. Definitely not a pastor, nor even a believer — I’d call myself an open-minded agnostic. But I had a religious upbringing, and I am a four-year seminary diplomate, so I guess you could say I do have a Christian point of view. 🙂
The problem always comes down to foundations…
If you are correct and there is no God then everything you hold dear, life itself, freedom, etc. is all merely a fabrication of your will or imagination.
So, that being said, all law is then derived from that self same fabrication. If murder isn’t wrong because it’s the taking of a life of an Image Bearer of God the Creator then it is only deemed “wrong” because somebody somewhere thought so…
So that means that if any one man or group of men collectively decide that “murder” or some form of it, isn’t wrong or illegal or immoral or whatever one chooses to call it then, honestly, it isn’t for them.
Now, you may want to fight against them, and you may fancy it your right and duty to fight against them and you may cite freedom and love and beauty and whatever else you want, but aside from the foundation of absolute morality from the creator then all we are left with is differences of opinions.
Those opinions then boil down to who has the most guns and the most will to power…
It basically boils down to Nihilism.
I am a Christian, Baptist, Calvinist Doctrine, who is proud to call myself a “son of Abraham’! I happen to believe in a Super Determinism version of predestination (see my blog-post on Nonlocality), but that is a whole nother subject.
I also carry. I also think that every law abiding citizen should arm themselves. God does not hate the honorable military personnel, LEO’s, hunters, and armed citizens of his two inspired and beloved nations – The United States of America and Israel. That’s my opinion, and part of my sytsematic theology.
I am a Christian and have had this debate with other Christians who are dear to me and with some Christians whose knowledge of the Bible is greater than mine. It is not a question simply answered. And I would encourage any Christian struggling with the righteousness of self-defense to spend much time in prayer and in reading the Bible – – test your thoughts with the Word of the God and with the guidance of trusted men of God.
As for me, I reached a conclusion on this matter long ago. God is a warrior. Jesus will return as a destroyer, wading in the blood of men. If you doubt this, look to the Bible. Read the Old Testament. Read the Book of Revelations. Therein, God is also described as a hen, covering her chicks with her wings. Jesus is call the Lamb of God. All of these attributes are true and right. And they are not mutually exclusive. To His chosen, God is a protector, a father. To this world, Jesus first came as a lamb, and to His people, He is the embodiment of the Good Shepherd. To those outside the love of Christ, God is a just god, delivering justice with wrath – – to those under His wings, He is a just god, delivering His wrath upon His own son as a substitute for those whom He loves.
I reached my conclusion when I became a father, largely because I did not understand the nature of God, as outlined above, until I became a father. For my wife and my children and for my brothers and my sisters, I have the love of a shepherd, a duty to protect and a duty of care. For those outside that circle, I have a duty to inform, a duty to speak about the God whom I know. For those outside that circle who would harm those whom I love, I have nothing but wrath. For that reason, I carry a gun and know how to use it – – I own guns – – everyone in my household has a gun and knows how to use it, including my sons. For that reason, there are at least three or four armed men in my church every Sunday.
I pray that I never have to kill another human being. I have held the dead body of my own son, and I know what Death is. I also know that life is precious. So precious that the God who gave me life was willing to salvage my life with the life on His own Son. When you take up a gun, you had best understand these things. You will be held accountable.
I think you’ve found some truth here. The shepherd has to be willing to stand in front of his flock and kill the wolf.
Anyone who would even ask that question is of an entitlement mindset. Someone else should take care of me and my family. I don’t want the responsibility of having to take care of myself and others. This mindset is the opposite of Christianity. Christ taught the concept of self defense and the defense of others. It’s the lazy man, the sluggard, who doesn’t put forth the effort or preparation to defend or provide for themselves or their family. The gun is just a modern version of weaponry as was the sword when Jesus walked the earth in physical form. Jesus told his deciples to sell their clothes to buy a sword if they didn’t have one. He knew they may have to defend themselves or others. He also knew that people would someday ask that rediculous entitlement question and his people could refer back to his statement in Luke 22:36.
After losing a majority of my family in the Holocaust, I’ll make sure that my family and I are protected in the most efficient manner possible. Faith will NOT protect against a faithless or faithful person intent on doing harm
I do wish people would stop using “Turn the other cheek” as an argument for pacifism. It’s as stupid as when people pull the “Give us your poor, your tired” card to excuse unchecked immigration.
Turning the other cheek is a response to being insulted; a slap on the face does hurt, but it’s only lethal to your pride. Jesus asked his followers to bear insults with grace and patience, not to bend over and smile if someone wants to maim or kill them. If a maniac stabbed your kidney, you aren’t scoring points for Team God by pivoting around to let him stab the other one; no, that would just make you an idiot.
And really, even if that was what He expected us to do, I wouldn’t submit myself or mine to murder on the command of anyone who has the luxury of resurrecting in 72 hours.
I choose to own a gun. Do I need a gun? Not at the moment, but, maybe one day I will need it to defend my family or my property or my country. I enjoy shooting sports. They are fun. I don’t imagine that I’m killing people or animals. I like to shoot. Did God send Israel out to defeat their foes with no weapons? No. I trust God. But how is that exclusive of having a gun? If I need to use a gun to defend my family, property (which God allows me to live on) or country, how can you say God would not help me then in those situations to use the gun effectively to defend those I love? What about a Law Enforcement Officer or Soldier who trusts God? Should they lay down their arms? I think any Christian would say no. Owning a firearm or firearms does not reflect your faith or trust in God at all.
Talk about a question right up my alley! I’m Pastor Vince from Clergy in Support of the 2nd Amendment. I have addressed this question more than once:
In this post I prove that Jesus Christ did command His disciples to be armed for the purpose of self defense: http://2ndamendmentclergy.blogspot.com/2017/01/did-jesus-order-his-disciples-to-be.html
This post contains quotes from a wide variety of religious leaders (not only Christians) on the issue of self defense, including armed self-defense: http://2ndamendmentclergy.blogspot.com/2017/11/religious-leaders-on-firearms-and-self.html
Finally, this is our Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/2ndAmendmentClergy/
Mr. Warde, I hadn’t heard of your group. Are you aware of my book, “A Time To Kill: The Myth of Christian Pacifism” ? I wrote it in 2013, and am working on a 2d edition now. Dean Weingarten reviewed it on TTAG in Nov. 2016. I’m a recovering lawyer who has taught the Bible for 40 years. ATTK surveys the entire Bible on self defense, military service, and the death penalty. Having practiced criminal law for many years, I now train CCP holders and armed church security teams in self-defense law.
You can reach me at at Greg Hopkins or Greg Hopkins, Author, on Facebook. Please get in touch with me.
As we have seen in comment section its not about guns its about the issue of self defense. it is false Theology that has caused a question like this to even be asked. I Trust in the Lord Jesus Christ as My Saviour and of course i carry a gun. What most pacifist to often forget is That Jesus Said “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink” Mat 6:25, and if they were to apply there position of self defense to this they would never go to work, pick up a fork to eat, etc. Yes we Should Trust God, but we still have the Human Responsibility to act of what the Lord has given us in his Inspired Word.
It’s easily explained on half a million tattoo and hotrod shop walls all across this nation. In God we trust all others pay cash.
I trust in God but everybody else is S.O.L unless they prove they can be trusted.
The right to keep and bear arms is the right not to be killed is an inherent, natural right – don’t need no made up boogeyman in the sky to verify that which is mine by virtue of nature.
The only thing I will add to this is the story from the Book of Nehemiah. The Jews were rebuilding the walls around Jerusalem but were under constant attack by their enemies. So they tooled up. The masons carried a knife in one hand while applying mortar with the other. Others were armed and on guard duty.
The armed Jews were able to fend off their enemies and complete the rebuilding project, much to the dismay of those who desperately wanted to see them fail.
Being armed for your own defense is a thing. A Biblical thing.
The best part of Nehemiah’s precautions for the builders was that they never had to use their arms because their swords were an effective deterrent!
Open carry wins again!
“Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!”
— Lt Howell M. Forgy, Chaplain, USS New Orleans (Dec. 7, 1941)
Loath as I am to wade into religious discussions in most cases I would point out the following:
There are a number of repetitive themes in The Bible. One of them is that of what I call the “hesitantly faithful”. Essentially God, or his ambassador, goes to a person and gives them something to do. The person protests that they cannot but eventually tackle the challenge. During the challenge they repeatedly hit roadblocks and proclaim their inadequacy to complete the task.
During those times God acts as a coach essentially saying “I have given you the tools but it is you who must use them”. Eventually the person completes the task.
So to say that God will simply act as a protective figure isn’t supported by The Bible. God has given you the tools, you must use them and, if you’re a believer, it is your faith that gives you the fortitude to continue using those tools even when things seem bleak. This is a message that replays constantly throughout The Bible. It even happens to Jesus.
The question is faulty. It’s not a balance sheeet reconciliation issue. Don’t try to put those two things together (for me) in this life.
Safer to deal with it / imagine it as an “In case of Emergency, BREAK GLASS”, issue.
I have my faith in GOD, and my relationship with him. I have no idea if I can impress upon you my belief in the importance of that belief. I don’t believe for one second any of the rest of you give a flying F about it. If you make me abandon my concentration / reliance on / belief in, it for a second, I’ll waste whatever time I need to (and whatever means) to make you rethink your choice on that, and work stringently to prevent you or yours from doing it again.
“”I come in peace. I didn’t bring artillery. But I’m pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you fuck with me, I’ll kill you all” -Mattis”
Sorry but I am already JUSTIFIED by the death,burial and resurrection of GOD the SON-JESUS CHRIST. Do we have standing armies and police? Yeah and they dish out death and destruction in my name-and everyone reading this. Don’t like it? Go live on a desert isle. JESUS is the same yesterday, today and forever. The SAME GOD who reigned in old testament Israel. Lion,Lamb,protector and agent of wrath. If I don’t provide for my own I am worse than an infidel-that includes armed protection. We won’t need guns in the Millennium. Until then I am an agent of The Good Shepard…
“How do you deal with people who think religious folks support gun control?” Call them out as idiot civilians / fake news / ignorant-on-purpose ahole-neighbors who needed a job.
Gun-control people are for strengthening laws that bolster 2nd Amendment Rights and threaten the life of all those opposed. Gun-control people are for the maximum possible (super-saturation) of ownership of guns by every real citizen of the United States. See. I can do it too. Make them fight back against that, instead of tripping over ourselves to answer to every bit of stupid sh1t that falls out of the hole under their nose.
Gun Owners are a dry popcorn fart away from doing Armageddon just so everyone can see JESUS early. Everyone else better STFU and disperse quietly. F all of your questions.
If you trust God, why do you get your broken arm fixed? Why do you avoid polio, flu, tetanus, measles, mumps etc by getting immunized? Why wear seat belts? Don’t you believe in God?
It’s an illogical question because it can be applied to an infinite number of things we do as good judgement.
Agreed 100%.
Trust God…Hell I don’t believe that fairy tale any more than I believe in the Easter bunny. I trust my wife and son. Mostly I trust being prepared and let the chips fall where they may.
Interesting anecdote from the LDS/Mormon religion. You may or may not know that their prophet Joseph Smith was attacked and murdered while in a jail cell, along with his brother and a few others.
What I didn’t know, and what you may not know is what Joseph and his brother did when the mob attacked. They pulled guns and fired at them. Someone had snuck little revolvers or derringers or somesuch to them in the jail cell, and when the mob attacked, they fired to defend themselves, and the others in the cell who weren’t armed.
From what I remember learning (and this is from many years ago, so grain of salt and all that) was that Joseph Smith’s followers were breaking him out of jail and that’s when the shooting started. Of course, there’s always 2 sides to every story.
Then there’s the South Park side of the story (of the LDS church especially). Lol.
Using this logic, why would you got to a job and not trust God to provide sustenance for your family?
While not in the bible, “God helps those who help themselves” is a common belief/refrain. And since God gave us free will, we must suffer men freely choosing to do evil because God values free will over our own safety.
We humbly choose to arm ourselves because God is not going to perform a miracle to rescue little unimportant us or our families. He gave us the wherewithal to try to defend ourselves and that’s it.
I understand all this. Yet I don’t understand the Christians who pray often for a specific outcome. “Please deliver us to our destination safely” or “Please let us win this football game or at least free from injury”.
Please help me understand this kind of prayer. I understand prayer as a way to focus one’s thoughts on a matter (meditation actually) and to hear an inner voice (yours or god’s YMMV). I don’t understand the specific outcome request. As if God is going to prevent the car accident only because you called his attention. Does he do that?
If he doesn’t interfere with the world, would you act in your life any differently if he existed or not?
Accepting His will is foundational to pray. But still, he listens, and he cares. So I don’t feel remiss in expressing my own preferences and desires. Some things are predicated on the asking.
What is the difference between His Will and Predestination?
Also, what things are predicated on the asking?
A child can ask for candy before dinner, but a caring parent will say no. I tend to think that prayers out of selfishness are universally ignored. If you just happen to get your way, God had nothing to do with it.
I believe in a God-given mandate to defend me and mine, as long as I didn’t start anything.
I do respect those who would prefer to live nonviolently. It’s just not where I am at. And I think that should be respected as well. They are both valid and valuable choices.
I do think God is my first line of defense. Followed by the intelligence and sense he endowed me with. Following that are any tools I have at my disposal.
i prefer to live nonviolently, too.
but as the philosopher Mick Jagger wisely said, “you can’t always get what you want, but if you try, sometimes you get what you need.”
sometimes what you need is to kill a bad guy.
If God didn’t mean for us to have guns, why did he send his SECOND son, John M. Browning, to earth to invent them?
You forgot to add “ PBUH” after John Moses Browning (PBUH).
Einstein and Feynman WISHED they were John Moses Browning (PBUH)
if the Virgin Mary had two children out of wedlock she sounds like a whore
No Nigel, a virgin, something you can relate to being yourself. While you fantasize about the whores who ignore you.
Your writing sounds a lot like the table pounding atheist in Texas we are sadly reading about.
The one stopped by an armed citizen.
Psalm 1:44, Blessed be God my rock who trains my hands for war my fingers for battle.
Well something like that. For I am a soldier and he is my shield. Now we have that cleared up, I carry and I hope I never need it, for it is my staff too. Anybody puts there hands on me and my God will not save him….
;
All others pay cash
God gave man a brain. I’m sure God expects us to use them..
God already had plants and sponges if his endgame was passive life forms with no consciousness and no free will. so in my opinion you are exactly correct.
Too true. If God requires effort to avoid starvation, thirst, exposure and disease, why would he excuse us from the work of avoiding murder, rape and robbery?
You got 99 Comments, and my [originally first one listed] ain’t one.
https://youtu.be/ZtYU87QNjPw
Now, it’s back.
If you do not have a sword. Sell your coat and purchase one.
As I’m an atheist brought up in a country comprised of mostly atheists, I might not be the right person to answer this question. Nonetheless, I hope that any sane individual, regardless of whichever faith they profess themselves to aswell as to which extent they believe, take reasonable measures in their everyday life in order for them to keep on living. Having to cite scripture in order to justify such things as eating, sleeping, taking care of loved ones or defending ones own life seems a bit too complicated.
No matter how strong your faith is in anything; be it an electronic device, yourself or a deity, you normally take rational precautions anyways. Faith will always be faith, a gamble with odds based upon what you yourself believe. Therein lies the reason as to why we backup our data, start a timer when we cook pasta and why we carry a gun; even when we are certain that the risk is negligible. The common source of error is us as human individuals. No matter the quantity or quality of data upon which we base our decision, we can never be certain that we made the right call until after the fact. The only safeguard is assume the worst, no matter what Apple, our own intuition or the bible says. Unless we want to lose our nudie pics, eat overcooked pasta or get shot in the face because of faith.
in my opinion, faithful people put their fate in God’s hands in situations in which they have no control. faith is not an excuse to be lazy in situations in which a person could fix their own problems.
Is faith a result of people not wanting to believe in a chaotic, uncontrolled world? That someone or something must be in charge or nothing makes sense?
There are two questions here.
As to the first, even the most devout Christians don’t believe that God will protect them against all worldly harm. They may believe some very odd things, but not that.
Jews know perfectly well that God will kick them in the teeth sooner or later. Owning a gun is no defense against the creator of the universe.
As far as religious people being in favor of gun control (the second question), there are many such. It has more to do with their political rather than religious beliefs. The two are separate.
It’s a question of doctrine on free will. If it exists, and your diety-of-choice has granted it to you, then your defense is up to you.
If it doesn’t, or your deity has not granted it to you, then it’s not worth discussing as any action you take is predetermined.
That may not solve it. If it is predestined that I should buy a gun and defend myself, then pass the ammunition please. Whether god wills it or it’s just little ole me who wants to live, I’m grateful for the gun.
There is no such thing as god, the devil, jesus, mohammed, angels, or any of that other mess that isn’t real. 10 mm is real, though, and I’ll put my faith in that.
kind of a limited thing to put your faith in, isn’t it?
But it will always be there. You can test it which is something frowned upon in God’s establishment.
As opposed to putting faith in something that has never shown itself to me, or given me a reason to believe at all? I’ll pass.
No person with any credible knowledge of history refutes the existence of the person of Jesus of Nazareth, son of Joseph. I would assume the historical evidence for the existence of the person of Mohammed, though I admit that I haven’t researched it as thoroughly.
If it’s no big deal, then provide evidence, or even better, prove your jesus is real.
I know 10 mm is real, because I was shooting it last night.
You’re welcome to live in your ignorance. I have no interest in disabusing of your ignorance; I’m merely pointing it out. The existence of the person of Jesus of Nazareth, son of Joseph, is established, historical fact.
Chip ,
You and I both know , trying to adjudicate the existence of ‘ a God ‘ or even get an unbeliever to examine the historical evidence for the existence of a man who claimed to be ‘ The prophesied Messiah ‘ of Judaism , is pretty much futile here on TTAG , but answering this question would solve many persons conundrum with regard to their relationship with a creator . How could a loving creator accept the suffering of innocents ?
Answer this and begin the walk .
It is answerable and the answer will set human free .
I would think that persons who strive for , fight for and are willing to lay down their lives for , FREEDOM OF CHOICE , would find this subject of the upmost interest and well worth their greatest research efforts and if one chooses to journey down this path , no matter how they approach it , ‘ the Christ ‘ stands awaiting the end . It is the perfect message of the cross that truly releases the chains , nothing else .
No preaching , just a call to reason .
AMEN!
God made man with opposable thumbs and large brains to build tools.
If we were supposed to passively go through life without acting on our own behalf, he would have made us into plants or sponges.
Instead God made us in his image, only lesser versions: we have free will, the ability to foresee some of the consequences of our actions, and (somewhat) control our environment.
“let he who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one”
Social Justice Christians who try to justify pacifism or gun control using scripture are putting politics before God’s word. We deal with these issues almost every week on my podcast, Armed Lutheran Radio.
I highly recommend “The Armed Lutheran” for giving Biblical and logical reasons for practicing self-defense.
Trust in Allah — but tether your camel.
— Old Bedouin saying
Christianity + Firearms = Hilariously hypocritical
Please: do elaborate.
I don’t trust god.
I don’t even know if he, she or it (or they) exists.
I’m an agnostic.
I do trust John Moses Browning and my M1911.
If you believe in God, why do you have home insurance or car insurance (besides being required by law)? Because you hope to God never to need them, but it’s good to know that they’re there when you need them. God expects us to do our ‘hishtadlut’, a Hebrew term for making a personal effort, for doing the legwork.
Born into a family of “Christians.” Daddy’s side came from “Deliverance” country. And… I DO mean as in the movie! Just shy of playing with ‘rattlers and all that. Mom a devout Catholic, with family right off the boat from Italy. The “Blessed Virgin”, “Stations of The Cross”, and the “Confession Box.” I grew-up, putting Marinara sauce on my venison steak.
Throw in the Jewish Talmud, and the Islamic Quran and you have the true “axis of evil.” Ignorance and fear fueled by all three, has resulted in more violence and bloodshed, than it ever has “good.” Still does to this day, and will continue to do so. If a Christian, Jew, or Muslim, wishes to live their faith literally according to the “word of God”, we would have more prisons today, than churches.
Hopefully, one day science will replace “religion.” I’ve never seen a Christian, Jew, or Muslim scientist, slaughter in the name of The Hubble Telescope. To me, the closest we have come to the “face of God.” The greatest gift the White man, has ever given the world. Including the 1911 (will all due respect to Col. Cooper).
Till then however, I will keep my Glock’s, Mini-14’s, 870’s, around. Must be that “Viking” in me…
Man says, “God says”.
When Jesus Christ went into the wilderness and fasted , He was confronted by mans nemesis with the same issue we see before us here and now , the same question was placed before Him . Read it . If you wish to be enlightened even greater as to establishing your footing on this very important issue , read an excerpt from Dostoyevsky’s ‘ The Brothers Karamazov ‘ , easily found on a search engine , titled ” The Grand Inquisitor ”
I don’t like to preach in my comments , but this issue is one of the absolute biggest obstacles for people to believe in ‘ A God ‘ .
Why would ( could ) a loving creator allow suffering on innocents ?
Yes Virginia , there is a GOD .
4 clicks to arrive at this article from the last one.
Please restore the next/previous article buttons.
Respectfully, another RF
Because…Free Will
This is simple. God helps those who help themselves. He won’t do everything for you, and neither will anyone else unless they plan to enslave you.
Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world”. I trust god the most valuable possession I have; my soul. Otherwise this world is the kingdom of Satan and one must prepare to protect the weak from the evils of this world. That is why I was a policeman, and now retired, I still carry a gun.
The Father and Creator YAHWEH Jehoovah Commanded that this Galaxy is to be a FREE WILL ZONE as a Divine Experiment! The will be Judgement and a Graduation Day coming-up very soon! We are in the Last Days, where this beautiful Earth Plane will go through Tribulation, and will go through the 4th Dimension and into the 5th Dimension. Are you prepared? If not then, you must go to Jesus the Christ and ask for Forgiveness as we are all Sinners by Virtue of Adam and Eve who violated the Father’s Commands. Jesus is the only one who was sent by the Father as your Savior and Messiah! God Bless You for understanding this message!
Those who ask for the the banning of firearms thereby ask for social structure anarchy. They ask for rule by the younger, by the stronger, and by the gang or mob – and that is the exact opposite of a civilized society.
God has a lot on His plate, operating an entire universe, and I think it unfair and ungracious and ungrateful of me to ask that He do it all while I do less than that of which I am capable. As His will is the suppression of evil – I carry a gun so that I am always prepared to help God succeed to the best of my ability.
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