Our friends at Law Enforcement Targets have introduced a new line of Workplace Violence targets. Some of these images present scenarios where I’d be loathe to let loose the ballistic dogs of war (i.e. I wouldn’t take the shot). That’s not to say I don’t practice hostage shots. I do and recommend that precision head shots be part of any armed self-defenders regular training. All of the Workplace Violence targets assume . . .
that you’re armed at work. For a lot of people – including workers at Trump properties – that’s not true.
Many members of our Armed Intelligentsia report they’re prohibited from carrying at work. Cubicle dwellers, doctors, civil servants, Uber drivers, TTAG writers in their day jobs, etc. More than a few of these “gun-free zone” inhabitants indicate that they carry surreptitiously. If you carry at work, are you ready [as you’ll ever be] for this? If you’re not, if you can’t carry at work, what’s your plan for workplace violence?
Since my retirement, I work almost exclusively at home, where I am allowed to carry by the grace of the Second Amendment and the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, and the only hostages would be one or both of my cats. I could manage to shoot around them.
The movie Speed has taught us that you should shoot the hostage. P.S. I hate cats..
Correct; immediately shoot the hostage thus eliminating the hostage taker’s leverage.
but what about the cats
Don’t assume that the cats aren’t in on it.
A deputy here shot a hostage in the leg just like in the movie. She was a pregnant waitress, I figure there’s a greater than 50% chance he saved her life when the hostage taker had to drop her. Deputy was aiming at the murder suspect they were chasing, who had already killed two women and was using the waitress to shield his escape.
Shooting that young woman really messed him up in the head. Eventually he flipped out and shot up himself and his squad car.
P.S. I hate cats..
“People that hate cats will come back as mice in their next life.”
— Faith Resnick
I see that you couldn’t wait.
Yeah, but these mice will be three feet long!
Yes, you’d probably come back as a ROUS (rodent of unusual size). While you might say it’s inconceivable, I’ll just smirk and say that while you keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.
So in the new line of Workplace Violence images, do they have any scenarios to let loose the ballistic dogs of war on dogs?
Only cops are allowed to do that.
Like Ralph I am fully retired so I allow myself to privilege of carry at the office.
If you take my cat hostage, I’ll be using the James Bond tactic. “That cat means nothing to me.”
Duck and Cover of course. Between that and wearing a gun free zone t-shirt, I’ll be invincible!
My place of work is a gun and knife free zone guarded by minimum wage unarmed mall cops. I feel safer already!
Duck and Cover of course.
Just so you know, ducks make terrible cover.
Well, yeah… goose feathers are better for covers.
It depends how many ducks there are.
I DO CARRY AT WORK , everyday , from 9:00 to 7:00 , I am armed and believe it or not , I have instructed all of my employees what could happen in different situations . You may not be able to predict what will occur or what someone else may do but you can damn sure let everyone know what you will do . I have told everyone in the office to listen for one word and if they here me holler it out , they need to do it without thinking , immediately . The word is duck . I see an average , three inmates a month from this tri-state area regional jail , sometimes three at a time with only two guards , most are your common birds but every now and again we get a fellow that looks capable of causing real problems and I am always alert , watching our security monitors for any sign of trouble . I also practice regularly on shooting bad guys out from behind good guys . I think this is one of the most underutilized target practice of all and is maybe one of the most common situations one may face .
One of the first episodes of Miami Vice had an encounter with Sonny Crockett and a bad guy holding a young girl in front of him as a shield . The bad guy told Crockett to drop his weapon or he would shoot her . I think Sonny said something like , I think my bullet will hit you before you know what happened and the bad guy said , this is a hair trigger and it will go even if I flinch and Sonny said and I quote ” I don’t think you’ll even flinch “.
Bad guy down , show over , roll credits .
I grew up watching Gunsmoke , Mannix , Cannon , Baretta , Kojack etc. and that never happened , the bad guy always got away and there was 10 more minutes of show left . Not Miami Vice , Bang , bad guy down , little girl ok and show is over , I was hooked after that .
ducks make terrible cover.
What about small rocks?
Yeah, didn’t work for Boris in Goldeneye. When it came time for action, he was frozen in place.
Yes I manage a sports bar so I feel very obligated to carry at work. A big time cash industry that is open until two am. Lots of beautiful bartenders and waitresses work at the bar leaving with cash late as well so I feel obligated with my g43 appendix to help them get to their cars safe.
My wife worked in the same complex and luckily she was armed one night with her shield, a guy followed her to her car and she just flashed the firearm at him and asked him wtf he wants. He walked away and never returned. That is a gun stat that won’t show up on bloombergs cnn gun reports unfortunately. Who knows what would have happened to the most important person in my life without that single stack polymer pistol. Thank god we live in Georgia because if we were living In some progressive gun free area, well she might not be living…
Funny story…probably stopped a mugging attempt basically the same way in a similar situation also in GA.
The problem I have with work carry is most places allow you to have one in your car, but not on you at work.
If it hits the fan and I head to the gate and get to my car, I’m probably not coming back with a pistol.
I’ll watch it on the news when I get home.
Cant carry at work, then no going to the parking lot and coming back to shoot it out with who knows and risk getting shot when the cops arrive or loose your gun to evidence.
Allowed to Carry at work is different. It’s already on me, and I won’t have any premetatated questions to answer later.
Yeah, and depending on where you work or what state you live in, going back in armed (and either stopping or not stopping the threat) can get you sh!t-canned or convicted (you’re probably going to be arrested regardless, just the nature of being on scene with a gun during a shooting).
In VA, no employer can prohibit an employee keeping guns in his car. I keep an SU16 in mine and a CCW on my person despite a “no weapons” policy. Yes, I am prepared to lose my job… And protect my life.
I use to work for a very very large computer company with controlled access on all doors in and out and eight inch steel pipes filled with concrete hidden in the bushes to keep someone from driving through the glass doors or windows, and security guards (unarmed). I would have been happier with real security if they had been, or allowed me to carry or had a crash proof gate like the Glock facility just down the road. I did of course have my gun in the car, but that would have been darn little help if some hacked off nutcase had decided to take it out on us when he lost his data.
I was fortunate to attend two of Chuck Taylor’s pistol classes and every class had numerous hostage targets. So yes I would take those head shots presented. I practice them at every range session.
Well my workplace like many others is a gun-free zone. So if an active shooter or a hostage situation envelops I don’t have much choice but to run for cover.
…prepared? As much as having a couple cans of wasp spray can afford. Other than that, duck/cover and get-the-hell-outa-there!
My company does not allow firearms on the *premises*, and that includes the parking lot.
Depending on where you live, state law may override so that you can keep your gun in your car. It does here in Georgia.
If you have to sue your employer to keep your job, you can bet they will soon find another way to get you out the door.
Wait? What? Suppose for the sake of argument I’m armed at work(Reside and work in Alameda co. CA, so no real hope there). Do I become a swat team or seal team 6 member and rescue hostages?
It’s one thing to engage an active shooter that’s attempting to mow you and your fellow workers down. But to actively engage in hostage rescue is beyond what I would attempt on my own.
If it was a family member during a home invasion. Would have to try. But not at a work place.
Good call JWM. Soooo much could go wrong if a civilian tried to make a head shot in a hostage situation. There is only a slim chance that the stars align and you make the shot, kill the bad guy, and do NOT harm the hostage. Even then you will likely be faulted because “you could have killed the hostage.” Unless I was VERY sure that the hostage was going to die without my intervention, I would not shoot. Or if the hostage is a family member (as someone else said) I would have to try.
This may seem like a good logical choice but with proper practice and the correct firearm you should be able to place a bullet in a 4 inch circle at 20 feet and If you are confronted with this scenario you will probably have a shot in this range , your training is the only thing that will give you the confidence to take it . I would and I would not hesitate . I would not take the shot however with any gun I had not practiced with extensively . I have no doubt that the Single Six 22 magnum revolver I keep at my desk or the PMR that I have in my Waist or even the Ruger P85 9mm that is sometimes holstered to my belt would deliver a brain malfunctioning blow when I applied the skills I have practiced literally hundreds of times .
Yes! 4006 TSW with 3 extra mags of Winchester Ranger RA40T, IIIA vest (still stiff as hell), Rem 870 P with 00 buck, Sig M400 with 4 – 20 round mags, SOG Flash II, OC Spray, 26″ ASP, Streamlight SL-20 L, Glock 27 with spare mag, and my “mitts.”
But that’s only because you are some elite class of super-citizen, better than us peons who pay your salary. Many of the rest of us are unarmed at work, especially in California (the state where you oppress taxpayers.)
Please don’t shoot my dog. Kthxbye.
Trying to alienate the cops that don’t buy into the “us vs them” indoctrination isn’t the most sound of strategies.
Even if you don’t recognize it, it’s us vs. them.
Has a given cop ever arrested anyone on a weapons charge? Us vs. them.
Has a given cop ever arrested anyone on a phony War on Some Drugs charge? Us vs. them.
Has a given cop EVER used their “authority” to infringe upon ANYONE’S rights? Ever? Us vs. them.
So every cop is guilty by association? Interesting viewpoint. Where have I heard that viewpoint about lawful gun owners before?
@Refugee, A81 is one of us. He’s not part of the problem. And if every cop was like A81, there wouldn’t be a problem.
For what it’s worth, my wife is a full-time CA public school teacher (yet still refreshingly right-wing!) and an adjunct college professor. She’s forbidden to carry at work also. The security at her school consists of a bunch of overweight secretaries and a handful of unarmed male teachers. The mall jewelry store has more security than her school.
Her plan in the event of an active shooter is to either lock the doors or run like her a$$ is on fire.
I have never met a BAD COP , I know they’re probably some out there but not many . Most police officers are just like you . Regular people who have chosen a job where they are underpaid , constantly harassed by regular ill tempered , spoiled , ass for brains Americans . I know many law enforcement people and I am happy to say , I like them . Some of them are a little to liberal in my opinion but they are who they are and as long as I don’t break the law they don’t care how conservative I am .
We seem to be a little to quick to lump people into categories these days and lumping all police into the adversary category isn’t a good idea We really want them to have our backs WSHTF.
People are ALL the same , unique , diverse , complex and having a will to live freely . Cops included .
Bad? Not sure. Corrupt? several. Before the Mirage scandal broke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirage_Tavern Chicago’s gay bars were ‘outfit’ aka mafia run. Payoffs were a fact of life and not uncommon to see uniformed cops getting their mordida.
Slipping $10 (remember this was the 70’s) under the drivers license when handing it over often worked. I beat two trumped-up moving violations because it was clear a shakedown was the intended purpose of the stop.
But with those exceptions, I agree: the overwhelming majority of LEOs I’ve met are honest and caring.
You really do not know how much I would love to see your damn LEO carve outs go bye bye. I bet the tune would change dramatically.
I get it, Tom, but A81 is more “one of us” than he is “one of them.”
Meanwhile I support the NRA, SAF, and CalGuns. I’ve never once voted for a Democrat (but I’ve supported Sheriff Clarke, who is a pretty hard core pro gun guy). I support local ranges, and help cops and friends buy ARs. I bounce off ideas from Dr. Vino. I use *discretion* during enforcement contacts. I’ve helped friends get CCWs and have written reference letters to police chiefs (which didn’t work because it was in LA). I’ve trained dozens of rookies to disobey unconstitutional orders.
TTAG has a prickly relationship with almost all cops – even the pro-gun ones. If I get replaced by a different cop, the chances that he’ll be as pro-gun as I am are pretty flippin’ slim.
Also, concealed means concealed. CVC Section 21461 (A) is an infraction cite for failure to obey a regulatory sign. CA Penal Code 602 deals with trespassing. Drivers and bums don’t those signs. In a similar vein, I don’t recommend being disarmed by a sign or a company policy.
I do want to believe that you are part of the solution, and not part of the problem.
Still, I don’t see why super-citizens like you are entitled to more rights than the rest of us lowly Californians.
Equality under the law means just that.
Go on patrol with 10 round magazines and a maglocked AR and then we can have a discussion.
@Refugee, I understand. I also agree. But A81 didn’t make the policy, nor does he abuse it. So you should be blaming somebody else.
Thanks, Ralph. It is what it is, and I appreciate your support. People have a right to be pissed off, a right to win in court, and a right to carry. I try not to take TTAG personally, although it’s definitely happened a few times after a few scotch-es.
How’s that M400? Been debating that vs a Colt M4 for personal range time. Reservists only qualify 1-2 times a year with the real stuff.
The M400 wouldn’t be my first choice. The Colt is decent. Neither are awesome. For a first build I’d get a Palmetto State Armory lower with a stainless steel Palmetto State Armory Upper. You get more durability and accuracy than chrome-lined 4140 chromoly steel. With a decent trigger a Palmetto State Armory build will shoot 1.5 MOA or better with good ammo.
The Sig M400 and Colt are decent guns, but it’s easy to do better for the same amount of cash or a touch more.
Caption Contest entires:
“For the last time Alice, submit your expense report!”
“Break room food thief apprehended”
Being military I can’t carry at work. In the case of an active shooter were suppose 1. try to get out 2. Hide 3. if 1 and 2 fail than attempt to fight. My shop chief who does not really like the policy brought in a bunch of aluminum baseball bats so we would have at least a decent improvised weapon if such a situation actually arose.
I CC at work as do a few others, against policy. Head shots are always part of training regimen
The sad part is I work at an ammunition factory and am one of 2 people with access to the vault that includes post-86 machineguns.
I work in construction. Some contractors forbid firearms, some don’t. Regardless, I carry, if legal. Three years ago, I worked on a new DEA office in Seattle. Every tenant in this building was a Federal agency. They allowed us to park in the garage. I left my pistol at home.
And if the crazy-guy-with-a-gun shows up, you just say “oh, you must be looking for the fibbies, they’re on 2nd floor”.
I like Law Enforcement Targets for there cheep target prices. A few years ago I bought 300 terrorist and hostage targets from them because the even the standard silhouette targets cost twice as much per target locally. Sadly I still have like 150 of them because I moved a few months later and the closest outdoor range is now over an hour away and always very crowded, so I don’t get to the range as often, and when I do I can’t swap targets as often.
Like Ralph, since my (semi)retirement, I work almost exclusively at home, where I allow myself to carry. My wife is usually found in the farthest place from any entrance, and the three dogs have so far deterred anyone from trying to break in.
I’d honestly say that my “plan for workplace violence?” is about as well thought through as my plan for dealing with being hit by lightning strike…….
If pressed, whether at work or in another similar situation, I’d hold off on both shots. 1 because the assumed perp’s gun is properly aimed at a high value target. 2 Because the perp is too well covered by the victim. In a real “situation”, things move fast enough so that both hangups would likely clear within a second, at which point I’m pretty confident I could make the shot with any one of at least 6 guns in my possession. I’m assuming I get to stand in a proper shooting stand. If I’m running around looking for cover, I’d rather not try any kind of precision shooting.
I work in a GFZ, so my plan is to get the heck out ASAP. I do carry mace in the event that I cannot evade a confrontation.
If I was younger, made less money, and had a job that I could replace easily (waiter, call center rep, cashier, etc.) I would carry anyway. At this stage of my career the risk of lost income if I was caught is not worth the benefit of having a firearm to defend against a low likelihood assault. Others may view the tradeoff differently, it is an individual choice.
One other thing: If I did carry at work, it would likely have to be a pocket .380 due to our dress code. There is no way in the world that I am taking a hostage rescue shot at greater than 15 feet with anything smaller than a Shield. I’m not that proficient.
About 15 years ago, my wife worked at a box store, I think it was K-Mart.
The employees were paid, late at night, and in CASH, would you believe. Can you imagine most of these girls walking out to there car in the parking lot (far side) late at night with several hundred dollars?
I was outraged! I called the State office that handles those matters, and they said “yes, that was illegal”
My wife didn’t drive, so I picked her up every night.
They finally stopped paying in cash..
About half my office used to carry until this Year. Everyone in the office had even talk about what our roles were should the situation occur.
In the company got a new HR director who implemented and no weapons policy for all offices. So now we an not carry anymore without violating policy. I asked the HR person why the policy was implemented and was told it was implemented just in case an issue arose like someone getting angry after they’ve been fired. They didn’t have a good answer when I asked what do we do in that fired person comes back with a gun and now none of us have a gun to respond to them.
HR manager? Yeah, shoot through the hostage.
What I can carry with real discretion, no hostage-dodging shots. To borrow from Blazing Saddles: son, you’re on your own.
Wait — I thought that “workplace violence” only happens at Fort Bliss.
Workplace, schmerkplace. I carry. Period. Doesn’t matter where. If the job says no (not that I’d be working at a job), I ignore it and carry anyway.
In the pictures above, I’d take the shot with my 1911. Hell, I could pick which eyeball it went through at 25yds…
But since I can’t conceal a 1911, and can’t avoid printing with anything more than my PT738; I wouldn’t be able to take the shot with the gun I actually carry…
Open Carry would allow me to carry my 1911, be able to take the shot with confidence, but most importantly, prevent any need to take a shot in the first place.
About a third of our small swing shift carries, so we’re pretty set. The bosses give us a heads up if they fire someone with a temper.
uhhh…no comment….;)
Can’t carry at work and since the signs carry force of law don’t because dress code makes it difficult to conceal it. I do keep my plate carrier and armor in my gym bag in my desk draw. So hopefully I can get out, put my gun back on and leave until the cops finish cleaning up the mess.
does anyone carry everywhere?
Company policy for me is no weapons of any kind in the building or in cars. Whether or not that is supported by law, it is also a right-to-work state with the law stating I can quit or be fired for any reason or no reason whatsoever. Physical security is provided by glass doors, cameras, a 60-year old female receptionist and keycard entry. Company security drives around multiple buildings with Ford Escapes and we see them about once every two weeks.
I’ve had numerous people freak out over pocket knife, leatherman tool. While technically banned by policy, none of these things has gotten me fired but I am certain the smallest hint of a firearm and it would be bootsville. One time someone seriously backed up and freaked out a bit because they saw the hint of my gerber multitool which I carried on my belt and thought it was a gun.
So no, I don’t carry at work.
I don’t understand why most of these posts say “I can’t carry at work?” Unless you are x rayed or must pass through a metal detector, of course you can carry at work (at least in an office setting). I do every single day. The only time I am not armed is when I have to fly commercial. How in the world would anyone know? I’ve carried for 15 years at work and no one has ever even thought I was armed. A Keltec or other petite .380 is far from optimal, but at least I’m armed with something. And it’s still a 9mm.
I work in a state mandated gun free zone (hospital). I can’t even carry illegally, there is just no real/easy way to concealed carry in scrubs. I do carry a small knife. My gun stays in the car that is 5 minutes away if I walk fast. My active shooter plan is to run to the nearest secondary exit and get out.
The company I work for has a very explicit anti-weapons policy that bans not only firearms on the premises but also swords, maces, and other medieval weaponry. I don’t know if that policy is because we do a lot of contract work for the government (machine shop that makes armor components for military vehicles), or if it is because the “powers that be” are simply a bunch of wussies that cringe at the thought of armed employees. After all, armed employees might forcibly demand higher pay and better benefits… 😛
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