In the aftermath of the Newton Connecticut massacre—where “first responders” first responded some twenty-minutes after eye-witnesses told them a spree killer was murdering teachers, administrators and children at the Sandy Hook Elementary School—I’m not sure it could be any more obvious that teachers should be packing heat. How anyone could miss that point is beyond me. In fact, it’s such an easy intellectual “leap” that I’ve been thinking about open carry. Shouldn’t educators openly display a firearm? Open carry would deter madmen, reassure children and normalize guns; teaching our off-spring a valuable lesson about self-defense and, thus, self-reliance. I contacted a national open carry org that shall remain nameless as asked them about OC for teachers. They wouldn’t go on record on the subject. “Not now,” they demurred. But when is it a good time to have that conversation?

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126 COMMENTS

    • +1 It’s all about choice. You have the right to choose. I don’t think we should require teachers to carry, just simply remove the gun free zone label. Teachers who are legally able to carry will naturally do so, and many who are not will take steps to be able to.

      If you put openly carrying officers in schools, sure it will deter people from attacking schools, but they will just go somewhere else where there are plenty of defenseless victims for them to make their point.

      I think the main concern is that there are more children so they are scared that if an accident does happen they perceive an increased likelihood a child may be hurt. I say compromise and make them keep it locked in a desk drawer or something when in the classroom. Eventually it would normalize and that would go away. Pro gun folk always say if we give them an inch they’ll take a mile, lets take an inch and eventually we’ll get our mile. In past school shootings people hid in the closet and corners of rooms waiting and praying the shooter doesn’t pick them, that’s not a plan.

      • Yes the bad guy will go elsewhere if there are cops in schools. I can stomach a theater getting shot up a lot better than a grade school, Randy

      • I don’t agree on keeping them locked up, it just creates another useless, dangerous step in handling a firearm. Teacher puts on holster in the morning, checks that firearm is loaded, holsters their firearm, and unless something bad happens, doesn’t touch their firearm until they get home!

        I was having this discussion today with a very liberal friend about allowing adults to be armed in schools. He made the usual statement about arming teacher with AKs or ARs, slung over their shoulders walking around school. I then explained that the teachers would be carrying concealed and that the children would never know, unless something bad happened. He was starting to get the picture and that’s when I confessed to him that I was carrying concealed at that very moment and that he had no idea, and neither would the students, parents, or especially the bad guys! It then started to sink in and he actually understood what we (as in the gun community) have been talking about.

        I found it ironic, that today I had that same conversation with two different people, and both from as far from each other ideologically speaking and they both came up with that “assault rifles slung over the teachers shoulders scenario”, as what we were talking about when suggesting that teachers and administrators be armed in school.

        Plus they both mentioned, that pro gun groups always bring up the “We need weapons to take on our government stick” and it just makes us look looney! For the great debate that Larry Pratt had with PM on CNN, that’s all either of them could remember about the whole discussion!

    • No need to force them, but if this is a freedom we share, and they wont to then by all means, there should be no law or laws stopping them.

  2. If we’re concerned with the terminology being used by gun prohibitionists, then can we substitute the term “spree killer” with “mass murderer”?

  3. You mean as deterrence? It wouldn’t have stopped Lanza. What is important is that competent people carry firearms. You can’t ask as much from liberal educators. Though I do believe in allowing teachers to voluntarily carry. As a compromising measure to placate the left, they could be required to pass mandated training courses. Anyone who cares enough about the safety of their students would do this so long as the cost is not prohibitive.

      • And I personally guarantee that school staff that decline to actually carry a gun would be glad to unlock a cabinet containing a IIIA vest and a loaded shotgun when the gunfire starts.

    • You speak with such authority Daniel,” You mean as a deterrence? It wouldn’t have stopped Lanza”, did you tell the police that you had personally spoken to the murderer before his rampage?

      There is a reason every mass shooting except one was in a gun free zone, there’s no good person to shoot back at the bad guy, they are evil, not stupid.

      If there had been an armed adult at the school and the evil one knew it, the odds would been he would have gone somewhere else.

  4. No. CC only. No temptation for students, no tip off to the potential perps. O/C puts a target on the carrier.

    • I rarely see a teacher that appears to be first willing and second able to carry a concealed weapon, much less open carry. And I see hundreds. Please.

      • As an educator and CCW holder, I would feel more comfortable conceal carrying with my 3rd graders. There’s no reason for my kids to know I am carrying or not. Only my administrators.

    • I was thinking the same thing. Better to keep them guess which teachers are carrying. I think they would be less likely to hit a school where they don’t know which teachers are carrying.

  5. I am not a fan of open carry. Conceal it and keep the scumbags guessing. I support arming teachers but would require completion of a defensive or combat shooting class.

  7. Anyone besides me notice that the only people you DON’T hear clamoring for teachers to be allowed to carry are the teachers themselves? There might be one or two here and there, but I don’t think teachers are dying to be armed. I think that teachers by and large aren’t attracted to the education field by the possibility of armed combat.

    • As a teacher, I would like to be able to bring my concealed carry weapon to school. If I ever have to take a bullet for these kids, I would like to have real chance of defending them.

      • Would you say that most of the teachers you work with also want to be armed, or would you say that you’re in the minority?

        • I can’t speak for the OP, but I am a definite minority in the carry/ no carry camp. I’d carry, but most wouldn’t. Most teachers I work with are liberal, but even one of my colleagues (a card-carrying lefty if there ever was one) says she would carry her gun in school, excepting that whole 3-year mandatory minimum sentence thing here in Ohio…

      • Being from TN, probably not in the minority. Not speaking out against women or anything, but most of my coworkers are women, so I would be the minority in that.

        I hear we’re trying to pass a bill about this now, fingers crossed. We’ll see how that goes down…

    • Where could we hear from a representative number of teachers?

      Apart from who you actually talk to, it’s limited to media channels that will select who fits their narrative, or blogs.

      I think precious few teachers end up actually getting their opinions out, if we’re really asking. That’s what we’re doing, right: asking them if they want to carry, not telling them to?

      • I guess that there might be many more than you’d expect given much of academia and unions are leftists. Some might have been quiet in past for fear of adverse reactions by peers but less concerned with that now.

    • It shouldn’t even be limited to teachers, most offices and businesses are considered “gun free”. The very concept of gun free should be eliminated. Why are we painting bulls eyes?

  8. In the Fort Hood shooting, there were plenty of experienced people carrying guns, yet 13 people died before the military cops got there and took him down. In Sandy Hook, the teachers would not have been trained, would not have been experienced, and would not have shot back for fear of hitting a student.

    They should have the right to carry, but let’s not fool ourselves into thinking that they would have changed the outcome.

    Also, we are overlooking the obvious. His mother was armed and trained, and she failed to stop the shooter. We may as well sit around wondering: “what if his mother had been armed?”

    Is this what we are willing to do as a society? Are we willing to force teachers to carry guns just to make it more convenient for everyone else?

    If so, then what happens the first time a teacher drops her purse and her Raven 25 shoots a kid in the front row?

    What happens the first time a kid takes a gun from the teacher’s locker and accidentally shoots his best friend?

    More funerals? Just so you can call yourself a “defender of the Second Amendment.”? It isn’t worth it.

    • There were no armed people at the Fort Hood base except the shooter himself. Contrary to popular belief, military personel do not walk around armed. The firearms are locked in a large room with keys held by the commander or another few individuals. The only time which I saw a lot of armed men wandering around the base was after 9/11 (the first one) where they were at threatcon orange or something and I was challenged several times by armed personel to my reason for being there ( i was there on official biz) (name on list and all that). The claim that mom was armed is unfair, the kid shot her and probably caught her by surprise. The school had no armed teachers, nor principles which would have helped stop Lanza if there had been armed people. Even a locked gun in the office of a few might of helped. Lanza had to shoot out the door to get in first. I believe in CC for teachers because the badguy doesn’t know where the rabbit is going to jump up and get him. Would Lanza have chosen the school if he had known that they would have been shooting back? Maybe it would be better to have a biometric safe in the room with a teacher if they so chose to go that route, then everyone is happy and safe.

      • If it is fine for Ft. Hood to be a gun free zone, then why it not good enough for an elementary school? Even if not armed, military professionals should be better in a crisis than First-grade teachers.

        I understand that gun rights, I am just worried by the idea that we might give teachers a couple of weekend classes, and then let them gun up more than Ft. Hood.

        The idea that we don’t trust soldiers with guns, but we would trust school nurses seems like an idea that hasn’t been thought through very well.

        • I would absolutely trust a teacher with minimal training to carry a firearm on campus. I hope it is understood by everyone that people who go into education really are doing it to help kids develop, and when you invest your self into the development of people, you get a bit protective of them (laws of nature sort of thing).

          19 year old people who just finished training how to be pointed at and engage the enemy are not expected to be protectors (necessarily) by nature.

        • Bases are not gun free zones, quite the contrary. The gun carrying guys are at the gate and patrolling the perimeter and some are in cruising around in intervals to check buildings. In the Fort Hood case a Soldier knew where the security was and chose to shoot up the Hospital sector of the base where he felt there would be less security. Also he was “infiltrated” the bases because he was the inside man. Lanza had to shoot his way through the school door and knew there were no security to stop him. In both cases there were spree killers. but one was committed from inside and one broke into the facility without resistance.

    • In order:

      1. Soldiers can’t carry guns on base in the States or non combat areas. It took a lot of soldiers dying to be allowed to carry loaded magazines in their guns, without one in the chamber, in active combat zones.

      2. According to what I’ve read and heard, the mother was asleep. You can’t really defend yourself while your asleep people install alarms on their doors or have overly friendly yappy dogs to wake them up if someone tries to get in.

      3. I’m personally against forcing anyone to be armed. It’s wrong. No one should have to buy something they have no desire to own, or to take training for anything they do not wish to know about.

      4. Most guns are drop safe, and I doubt anyone here is saying for teachers to carry in their purses, and all guns they do carry should be concealed.

      5. I don’t understand why a gun would be outside of a teachers direct control, and why teachers have lockers in schools that kids have access to…

      I’m personally for ALLOWING teachers to be armed, assuming they take a training course that’s designed for teachers in a public school (I believe it should be required if any teacher wants to carry in schools, but that’s just my opinion), but I would also like to see a constant police officer presence in every public school in America. At least one single police officer, in either plain clothes (probably stuff normal teachers his/her age would wear) or in uniform.

    • “They should have the right to carry, but let’s not fool ourselves into thinking that they would have changed the outcome.”

      Wow, Dave, I had no idea you were actually THERE when it happened! That must’ve been a harrowing experience. Tell us all about it!

    • So cowering in a corner using their bodies to protect the students is morally better than having the students hide while the teacher covers the door with his/her gun? Huh. I dont see it that way Dave.

      Also, I dont think anyone here is calling for teachers being forced to carry, rather just giving them the option to do so if they want to.

      • Conway: So you are saying that having a bunch of guns in your house doesn’t always protect you? Odd, because to listen to the NRA “press conference”, more guns are the solution to every problem.

      • Wrong on Ft Hood. Even though it is a military base soldiers are not allowed to carry weapons around on main post unless you are an MP. Even in civilian clothing and with a cc license you cannot carry on post because it is a Federal Installation.

          • Most every base does not allow open or concealed carry by soldiers in or out of uniform by non MP personnel.
            It doesn’t make sense but there it is!!

  9. I believe they should conceal carry, and it should be widely reported that teachers are now carrying concealed.

    That way the bad people know it, and even those teachers not carrying will be feared by potential killers, as they will not know who is carrying, where the fight will come from.

    Surprise, my friends… Always have the element of surprise.

    I will never open carry, cause you are likely to be the first target.

  10. Teachers with guns? Ya mean that cops can’t protect us? Ya mean that the G isn’t the Wise and Powerful OZ? Sorry, but the whole purpose of government run schools is to brainwash the children. OC will never be allowed in schools because it would normalize guns among the impressionable kids, which is counter to the programming.

    Where do you think hoplophobes are taught to be hoplophobes?

  12. I don’t know…

    Open carry in the general public is one thing. If you see a person carrying a pistol at a local carry out store, you can just turn around and leave if you do not like guns. But in schools, people are FORCED to be around it. Its one thing to see a gun in public, and not leave, and seeing a gun in public, and being unable to leave.

    I don’t think I’m saying it right…

    Basically, in public everyone has the option to leave, or take it up with their employer to put up a no guns allowed sign if it really bothers them. But in schools, the kids cannot leave. They cannot pick a different teacher. They cannot just switch schools. I don’t think its right to FORCE people to be around guns if they do not want to be around them…

    I don’t know…

    And I can’t seem to explain it right. But I think concealed carry should be allowed in schools.

    Its like not liking Justin Beiber, and hearing him sing on the radio as a car passes by, versus having a person lock you in a building with Justin Beiber playing non stop and if you try to leave you’ll get in trouble, and if you don’t go every day cops could be called…

    • There is some merit to this argument, I think.

      I honestly think concealed might be better, but the question was “should they,” and my answer remains “if they want to.”

      • Should they be allowed to carry a gun concealed?
        If they want to.

        But open carry is different when you are forcing people to be around it…

        If the faculty and parents got together and agreed on allowing open carry in that one school for one year by majority vote, then yeah open carry should be allowed. But they would have to do it every year because new parents send their kids to that school and parents with older kids leave the school… Even then, I remember high school and there were kids there I wouldn’t trust with a bunsen burner and a sharp pencil, let alone a fully loaded, easily seen glock.

        I just think the parents should be allowed to have some say on whether or not teachers as a whole, or only certain individual teachers should be allowed to openly carry. I mean, I disagree with anti-gunners, but they have a right to teach their kids to be anti-gunners too. Just like we have a right to teach our kids about guns.

        My thoughts aren’t becoming words easily today, hope you can understand the above…

  15. I think open carry would force the normalization of firearms issue, which is something the anti-gun crowd doesn’t want. Remember, guns are evil, and you have to consider those teachers who are merely that. Teachers. Some can be sheepdogs but not all. Some are closet hoplophobes. This is why the arming teachers concept won’t work. The level of proficiency and level of ‘normal’ needed cannot be reasonably achieved with some people because people are different. Which is why there will always be sheep, sheepdogs, and wolves. I support concealed carry, but I feel the school board and more importantly, local law enforcement need to provide some form of certification and quarterly/bi-annual training for guns in schools. Carrying a gun has inherent responsibilities, and we cannot ignore the fact that people are different and perform to different levels.

  16. Good point I think private security guards would help too. teachers are to liberal hence there hesitation for arming people in schools. But look at Israel and Switzerland who both have bigger armed presences in public places hence alot less mass murders. This should be our counter point to the lefts solution to attack gun rights we need more protection.

    • I believe every adult male over the age of around 18 is issued an assult rifle in Switzerland. hitler wanted nothing to do with Switzerland. I don’t think the Swiss would agonize long on how to deal with this, Randy

      • You guys always love that part of the law, but you aren’t willing to do the part that works.

        In October 2007, the Swiss Federal Council decided that the distribution of ammunition to soldiers shall stop and that all previously issued ammo shall be returned. By March 2011, more than 99% of the ammo has been received. Only special rapid deployment units and the military police still have ammunition stored at home today.

        So yeah, if we can get the government to confiscate 99% of all the ammunition in the country, then I would be fine with letting every Gomer in the country have a rifle.

        • Interesting. I was unaware of that fact about the Swiss, so thanks for the info. I never really liked that example anyway. People love to trot it out, but “everyone having a gov’t issued gun” is only one of about a billion ways that the U.S. and American society differs from the Swiss. Just like when they use an example like, “If you want to see what happens to a disarmed populace, look at Rwanda.” Stupid shit like that is, to me, the pro-gun version of the “wild west, blood in the streets” stuff the anti’s do.

          Careful with the “you guys,” you sound like mikey. 🙂

        • The Swiss government confiscated government issued ammo. None of my ammo or weapons are government issue.

          I am a free man living under the rules of a free nation.

          • In Switzerland, the government ammo is the only ammo. When the government confiscated the “government-issued” ammunition, that reduced the availability of all ammunition by about 99%.

            You can’t point to the availability of guns in Switzerland as proof that guns don’t kill people. Because every time you do, someone will bring up an actual fact or two that make your argument useless.

            Similarly, you can’t say that you want to be like Switzerland when it comes to guns, but like America when it comes to ammo. It doesn’t work that way.

      • Switzerland held a lot of German geld. An invasion would be like robbing the bank you have a million dollar account at. Much like the “rifle behind every blade of grass” quote this is a lame way to defend the 2nd Amendment. A Japanese invasion of America (excluding the Aluetians) just wasn’t feasible. Neither was a German invasion of small mountain country that aided it. As Nietzsche said, the best way to harm a cause is to defend it with poor arguments.

  17. Teachers and administrative staff should be allowed to carry concealed if they wish. Firearm safety and responsible use should also be part of the curricula.

  18. Do away with gun free zones to start with, all gun free zones.
    If teachers or a particular school system doesn’t want teachers to carry or there are teachers who won’t carry then let former/ retired police and veterans handle the job.
    Get them through a course on shooting under stress and basic firearms and marksmanship. Be damn sure to go over all the laws and legal aspects of carrying a firearm.
    Even if every teacher/faculty member isn’t armed hopefully there will be enough to do the job.
    I will volunteer as soon as they allow concealed carry in the school buildings!!

  19. As an elementary school teacher, gunowner, and father of young children, I don’t think I would if given the choice – I think it takes away the advantage of having the protection a firearm grants in an active shooter situation (though I admit, I’m no expert). If my school did allow concealed carry, I would be willing to, though. I would also like more training in using a firearm in an active shooter situation.

    I’d type more thoughts, but my lunch break is almost over… 25 minutes to eat, and back to algebra equations and story problems!

  20. Another no. Always carry, never tell.

    Another thought is why not have some weapons locked up, say in the principals office, in a safe so that the office folk or any teachers that could make it there could arm themselves if need be? Shotguns and rifles would be way more effective anyway. In addition to CCW by teachers of course.

  21. Can’t allow those nasty guns to be “normalized” where would all those clowns at the Brady Bunch and all the other anti-gun groups find jobs? Actually they’d do just fine, there is always a place for the marginally competent, “hangers-on” of society.

  23. I am not sure open carrier is the best answer. For one thing the number of teachers who would open care is very small and might actually make these nut cases thinks the school is more vulnerable then they really are. Conceal Care on the other had keeps them guessing. Even a handful of armed teachers would be enough for most schools. I would support additional training of teachers but I don’t think anything outside the standard CCW training should really be required but for the children I would support a bill that required Training for any teacher that wanted to carry.

    Thanks
    Robert

  24. If teachers carry openly, they better have good retention holsters. Plenty of high school boys would try to snatch the firearm as a prank, not understanding how foolish that is.

  25. There are plenty of qualified people in every community that could serve as armed volunteers at all of our schools. The teachers should have the option to carry concealed if they choose. But the armed volunteers could be in the open to serve as a deterrent and this would allow the teachers to concentrate on teaching.

    As for locking guns in a safe in the office. Bad idea. Who has the key or combo? Who is designated to respond to be armed? What if that person or persons is using sick leave or vacation time? The list of what ifs is endless. You might just as well hide under your desk and wait for the first responder.

    I don’t think it would be all that hard to keep a 3-5 person volunteer patrol at each campus during school hours. As I’ve said, I would gladly do it at the schools in my community.

  26. Although It’s not getting much press (some, but not much), the folks in Harrold, Tx seem to have gotten it right. Some of the faculty and staff have concealed handguns and some don’t (it’s up to the teacher first and finally to the administration). Sure, it’s a small community and therefore has more like minded members, but they haven’t had any problems with their policy.

  27. No point. If teacher were to carry guns to protect the kids they watch over it should be done covertly. Especially in a high school. Younger school children would more likely not contemplate gaining access to the gun than teens but they will be detracted by the gun purely out of curiosity. Plus if a student was planning to kill people at the school you wouldn’t want them to know who has the guns and where they are.

    Every school should have at least one person armed covertly (handgun) but let it be known that there is armed persons on campus. If you cannot trust a teacher then an office worker, if you cannot trust an office worker then the principal, if you cannot trust a principal then a security guard, if you cannot trust a security guard then a peace officer.

    There is no excusing someone for saying police are the only persons that should be armed in this society, while those people frown upon police when they [police] are considered to protect people in defenseless zones.

  28. I think OC and/or CC depends on the school, the school official who would carry a gun, and the student population. For decades I’ve heard that many teachers will only use the stairs and not go into a school elevator with other students out of fear of being assaulted in a confined place. For example, OC in a Chicago ghetto public school could easily get a teacher targeted to be ambushed with the intent to steal the gun. In some schools the enrolled students are more of a threat than a dangerous outsider.

    Now that we’re discussing this issue, I now recall a scene while growing up in my lily-white safe Chicago suburb. It was the weekend in the late 1970s and a woman teacher from my suburb, who taught in a Chicago high school, admitted to me she carried a gun to her job (illegal as hexx) and would not hesitate to shoot any student(s) who attacked her.

    A solution for one school is not a solution for all schools.

  29. As a society we are unfortunately not ready for, or receptive to the idea of visibly armed individuals “without a badge” around our children or their schools. However my proposal to prevent & deter school violence and shootings is below.

    I would like to see a gun vault/lockbox placed next to the chalkboard in every K-12 Public classroom in this country. Then privately without any public notice or posting allow those staff & faculty who would like to, go through a course of firearms training with yearly review & brush up. Then ensure that there is a semi auto pistol w/ LAD/WML & 2 reloads in the lockboxes of those teachers & staffs classrooms & offices. This way everyone knows there are guns and trained users in every school but very few know the details of the who or where.
    The technologies exist to keep these boxes tamperproof and secure from both mischievous students & criminals, and allow rapid access and deployment. Locking mechanisms could be both biometric and centrally controlled to allow someone to hit a button ‘in the main office or entrance of the school’ which activates a small red light on the boxes and a brief audible buzz. This would signal that the boxes have A) been unlocked, and B) we got problems. The training, protocols and expectations I will leave to better minds than mine but I believe this will send a very strong message to anyone considering invading one of our schools with the intention to do harm.
    Lastly Gun Free school zones need to be treated as RED zones are in the sandbox of the middle east any non uniformed non badge carrying individual seen with a firearm or other deadly weapon, without hesitation or remorse is fired upon until neutralized. No warnings, no questions at that point you are an armed insurgent & therefore at best a critically wounded one.

    Come to think of it we probably need to put a vest of some sort in those lock boxes as well.

    TTAG, now appears to have 2 Jay’s that comment yet both think somewhat alike.

    • unrealistic. Our schools are underfunded as is. Who will pay for all that technology (not to mention the firearms etc.)?

      • Look at the amount of funding the attacks of 9/11 pushed into our airports & the TSA.
        The funding is not the issue its the willingness of parents to allow guns ‘especially unsecured ones’ around there children.
        As far as the firearms go I am sure Glock, S&W, Springfield or H&K would jump on the opportunity to provide the 10,000’s of firearms at a substantially reduced cost.

  30. I know I shouldn’t say this….I just know it…oh well, I’m a contrarian 🙂

    A little background…as an OFWG I was in High School back in the 1960’s. Not the early 60’s the late 60’s (important). That was a time of insane violence in the NYC High School I attended. 5000 students crammed the building built for probably 3000 at most. Vietnam was raging. Racial tensions off the chart. Drug usage everywhere.

    I had 21 year old students next to me who were avoiding the draft. Drug gangs were literally cutting up keys of pot on the cafeteria lunch tables. Guys snorting coke in class. Shooting heroin in the bathrooms. Teachers were assaulted. One gym teacher – ex marine – had his arm nearly cut in two while chasing invaders out of the school. NYC PD TPF (the precursor to SWAT) knew our school well. They made (and I ain’t lying folks) raids into the school with shotguns and pistols drawn to arrest drug pushers. Guys were shot a number of times on the steps of the school. Several died. Stabbings were routine. Black Panthers attacked whites. There was retaliation by ethnic gangs. Friends of mine carried pistols. I carried a knife, sometimes a length of pipe for protection. I finished my last year with 40 days absent because it was so dangerous.

    So that is all for orientation. Later on I got my masters and became a teacher in the NYC school system. 10 years passing had made things slightly better but not much.

    Ok here it goes….If you arm teachers not all the DGU’s are going to be against mad rabid dogs from the outside like the Newtown killer. Inevitably there is going to be some petite young female teacher who is going to have to defend herself against a 15 year old 6 foot 200lb miscreant who JUST HAPPENS TO BE A STUDENT.

    Now I honestly could give a crap less if she shoots him to defend herself. But please be aware that IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN. At that point please think Trayvon Martin. All hell is going to break loose. Noodle on that one for a bit….

    • Tommy Knocker, I also went to high school in NYC, but in the early ’60s. The school was and still is exceptionally well run, and I enjoyed it.

      It sounds to me like you went to Boys High, Tilden, Lane, Erasmus or some sh!thole like that. Erasmus was actually “decommissioned” in 1994 because it s^cked so bad.

      • Ralph, I wasn’t knocking every NYC HS. Look Bronx Sci or Stuyvesant are great. But you hit the nail on the head. The majority of the system is crap. (p.s. I was in Evander Childs in the Bronx)

        I also dug around for a current report on NYC crime. Found this article. “An average of four students are arrested and seven summoned each day over the course of the 216 high school and 209 middle school days. ”

        http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/15/nyc-school-arrests-96-percent-black-latino-students_n_1781960.html

        So just to sum up, I am just pointing out what I see as a possibility that is going to come up. We need to be prepared for it.

    • That sounds pretty crazy… HS sometimes is a completely different world than middle school/junior high and elementary school.

      I can’t really see a DGU happening versus a student in elementary school, but hey… you never know…

  31. just curious, new to TTAG and trying to understand the philosophies espoused here:

    many of the posts in this thread say we should allow teachers to carry, but they should undergo training. My impression from other threads was that requiring training for the general public was a no-go for 2A supporters. Why the double standard for teachers?

    In response to the original post, teachers should not be asked to carry unless they want to. Most teachers are already overworked and underpaid; unless we change that, I don’t support asking this one more thing of them. Let security be handled by a security person on site.

    • Some basic level of training is required in most states to obtain a CCW/CHL/CHP/CWP etc.. Also set training for the environment & possible situations as well as to establish ‘rules of engagement’ will be necessary to keep school board’s, parents, politicians & insurance companies calm about something of this nature being instituted on either a national or local level.

  32. Many liberals would rather see children die than have the next generation become habituated to firearms.

    • Phyd: Gun nut keep saying that, and to me, that pretty much demonstrates that the gun nuts are not interested in real solutions. If I were to say: “Gun nuts would rather save their Bushmasters than their children,” how would you respond?

  33. An interesting narrative, Tommy.

    I am unsure which is more troubling: a school in such a condition, or that a person’s right to self defense would be overruled by a fear of a politically correct outrage should they exercise that right.

    Were many teachers or students injured each year? Is that even representative of many schools?

  34. No. The key to success in a stopping a random act of violence is surprise. Not everyone is going to want to carry, but if there’s a chance someone might be carrying that could be all the deterrent needed.

    I was talking with my wife about it, and she would not be armed in her school even if she was able to. She suggested just the principal be armed (which is silly, step 1. of rampage, shoot principle, step 2. carry on)

    Unfortunately this is likely going to result in teachers being unfairly fired. I don’t have a doubt that some teachers have a firearm hidden away somewhere, like the principal who had one in his car. I can only hope nothing like this ever happens at their school, but if it does they’ll face the full measure of an unfair law.

  35. If we want to arm teachers so that they can defend against an active shooter, why are we talking about handguns? Give them a secure gun cabinet and an AR-15.

  36. I agree with concealed carry, if the person wanted, and with some training. If it was known that teachers might be armed it would offer some deterrent even if no one at that school was armed. And it would just take a few in each school. Remember several rushed the shooter this week without any weapons at all.

  37. The answer is a resounding “Yes!” Because then on top of “teacher killed while fumbling for weapon” headlines during the next school shooting, we’ll also see instant classics like:
    – “teacher mistakenly shoots ‘suspicious’ deliveryman”
    – “teacher’s gun misfires and kills student”
    – “student accidentally kills playmate after teacher leaves gun unattended”
    – “teacher threatens unruly student with deadly weapon”
    – “teacher’s gun grabbed in hallway fight”

    Also, I’m not sure whether you were insinuating this, but if so: the day civilians are required by law to carry weapons is the day I’m taking advantage of my dual citizenship and getting the hell out of this country. I don’t want to live in a militarized state, a failed state, or a state of quasi-anarchists who don’t actually understand or believe in the purpose of the state in the first place.

  38. Well said. One point however – madmen are not deterred, as are criminals . At best the insane are deflected to a path of lesser resistance. It important to come to terms, as quickly as possible that crazy is CRAZY, with distinctly different and often unfathomable motivations from criminals.

  39. Hell. No.

    I’m on the fence about concealed for teachers in actual classrooms. They are surronded all day by dozens of grabby, curious little hands, and their main job is supposed to be teaching, not practing weapons retention.

    Makes more sense to arm adminstrators, counselors, maintenance guys, etc. People in the school, but not surronded by kids all day.

  40. Open carry with high retension level holsters. Give each teacher with a gun a badge. Walla, they are now professional first responders & have the bradys blessing(hopefully). Stick a fork in it, its done, Randy

  41. CC definitely. Take the gun off the table as an object of discussion, curiosity, or political aggravation.

  42. No. I’ve spent some time working in the education field and I would not let most teachers handle a firearm, let alone carry one daily. As other commenters have stated, the grabbing hands of students would also be a serious issue.

    That being said, if they have a concealed carry permit than they should absolutely be able to carry concealed.

  43. Consider this:
    *I am a former teacher
    *I tend to be more liberal and vote that way
    *I have guns (OMG a liberal who owns guns)
    *I oppose an assault weapons ban
    *I think teachers should be allowed to open carry
    *I think there should be tighter gun laws (yes I realize gun laws worked in the Sandy Hook shooting)

    The uproar on both sides pro-gun and anti-gun is getting ridiculous. American’s should be allowed to own what firearms they want, but stricter laws and tougher screening process need to be put into place. I am sorry if you have to wait a little longer or you have to undergo a longer evaluation. I have met many a people that are “gun” people and just being around them and listening to their ignorance about guns should be enough to keep guns away from them. We need to come together on this and not fight about it. There is a middle ground let’s stop making it about right and left. As for teachers they need to go through strict training classes, the last thing anyone needs is a teacher with a gun that carries it to be badass (trust me I have met people that think this way, and I am sure you have too.)

    • If there is a “middle ground”, it was found in 1934 and 1968.

      I’ve argued with a lot of people over this past week, and by far the worst ones are the ones that start out with “I’m a gun owner, but…” or “I’m a conservative, but…”

      “But” is usually followed by a long tirade telling me what I need and don’t need. These gun owner have they need, therefore no one needs any more. These gun owners have no qualms throwing other gun owners under the bus, because they don’t “need” that. What these gun owners fail to realize is that the slippery slope, in this case, is no fallacy. The people leading the charge on the heels of every tragedy hate guns. They are afraid of guns. They are afraid of an armed populace. It’s not about magazine size, or military looking guns–it’s about how do politicians systematically disarm a population to make them easier to control…um…I mean, protect.

      Meanwhile, Boxer, Feinstien, Schumer, et al have no qualms about using their influence to carry concealed firearms in states where it’s nearly impossible for the commoner to get a carry permit.

      ~signed, a liberal atheist who also happens to be a responsible gun owner

      • I have always thought that was the silliest part of the “slippery slope” argument: “The government just wants to make us easier to control.”

        Why? What on earth could the government possibly want you to do that you can get out of by owning a gun? Pay your taxes? Stop polluting? Send your kids to school? (“Stop killing innocent children?” comes to mind.)

        In each case, once the government decides they are going to force you to do something, it doesn’t matter how many guns you own, nor how many of your friends you get to hide out in the compound with you. The government can, and will, force you to comply with the law. If you shoot at them, all it will do is shorten your life span.

        More to the point. Just pay your taxes. And while you are at it, stop polluting. There is nothing patriotic about tax evasion and pollution.

    • I agree to an extent. If me having to wait two extra days to pick up my weapon is part of getting rid of gun free zones and getting armed good guys in schools to protect our children and grandchildren then I am all for it.
      The “Assault Weapons Ban” will not cure any problems. It will only generate more problems, and grow the Black market for banned weapons exponentially.
      I know gun owners and concealed carry people who shouldn’t be allowed to own a weapon until they receive more advance training.
      Hopefully there will be a common sense solution to all of these problems but am waiting till the NRA says it’s piece in the morning and them will discuss and debate from there.

      • The argument that there would be a black market for weapons is 100% true. That does not make the effort to eliminate the manufacture of guns designed for mass murder a bad thing. There is a black market for RPG, heroin and nuclear materials. That does not mean they should be legalized.

  44. The reason I said open carry is they need to emulate cops. We are not dealing with critical thinkers with the grabbers. If a teacher has a gun, a shiny gold badge that says “school police” & maybe something on the arm, that should be all it will take for most. I don’t hear of a sea of people against cops in schools, Randy

  45. After a 20-year hiatus from teaching 6 years in 7 states, I spent a year in a rural high school school in 2005/6. The degredation in self-control,poor discipline by parents and school,and collective lowering of students’ IQ’s keeps me from endorsing open carry in schools. But concealed carry with training for teachers to act as a team; a BIG thumbs up!

  46. I’ve thought about this over the past week as my daughter is an elementary school teacher, and one that would be willing to train and carry at school if legalized. I really think CC is the way to go. The students shouldn’t even know it is there. Or anybody else, in my opinion. I know SERPA style holsters protect against gun grabs, but at the school she works at, she is fairly frequently in physical contact with the students, breaking up fights. Having a weapon on display might up the respect level a hair, but the kids at this school have a long way to go toward learning respect for anybody.

  47. Yes absolutely. If there had been a teacher that had been trained in the proper use of a firearm I can tell you that more children would be alive. But because of the liberal media, and liberals that are so afraid of firearms they and I’m saying are to be blamed.

  48. It’s the faculty and staff’s choice if they want to Open Carry within campus, as long as its legally allowed by their respective school/county/state.

    Personally I don’t think its a good idea to OC and expose young children to firearms in that manner. Concealed carry would be my suggestion instead; allow teachers to CC if they choose and offer free training and firearm discounts. It would make our schools and our children a lot safer…

  49. Sell all public schools to private institutions. Repeal all taxes that fund schools. Let parents home school or send children to private schools. If you choose to send your children to a private school, you can pick one that arms the teachers or has parents/relatives that provide security. In high schools you can teach the older/mature students to do the same. Obviously, if you home school then you will have guns available and can teach your children how to use them. This will not only resolve the problem of free fire zones we currently have but will give us better education of our children and teachers and schools will have to earn their money by producing well taught students. No government solution to a govt. created problem and it will cost less. A lot less. And it will show the children that you love them. And as a side benefit, you will be able to watch liberals heads explode!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9PEqmpGK9k

    • David, America’s public school system has a lot more to do with the country’s greatness than the easy availability of guns.

      If you think guns are your best defense against tyrants, you haven’t looked at the weaponry of tyrants lately.

      • Oh jeez, here comes this canard. We can completely ignore warfare for the last 200 years and make this true, or we can dispense with the silliness.

        Put an M4 in the hands of a gun owning American vs. someone from a country who doesn’t allow for an armed population, which person would you rather fight with?

  50. As a middle school teacher in a low-income community, the threat of gang violence on campus is more of a clear and present threat than a spree killer. We have one armed security officer to patrol five buildings and protect 900 students and 50 staff. Even before the CT incident, a few of us that are CPL holders were talking about how we wished there was something more we could do to protect our kids, such as getting defensive training and being able to carry on campus. Even one of my liberal female co-workers (a former Peace Corps volunteer) said that she would gladly carry her S&W if it could help save lives in a crisis. Teaching our kids to respect firearms, rather than fearing or fetishizing them, is another imperative. Unfortunately, the liberal legislature on the other side of our state (WA) will never let any of this happen. All we can do now is focus on the madness rather than the method, and believe me, it is taking everything we’ve got.

  51. I’ve taught in high school from time to time. In some schools, the students are of greater concern than someone who’ll come in from outside. I’d want a holster that requires a trick to get the gun out.

  52. As a teacher, and a CPL holder who carries everywhere and anytime it is legal I support this 100%. I teach in Michigan and our Republican governor just vetoed a bill eliminating the No CC zones. Currently it is legal for a CPL holder to openly carry a firearm in a school, CC however is prohibited. Have I OCd at a school? Yes, but this was not where I am employed due to the right of employers to dismiss for violating policy. While openly carrying my pistol, no one ran away terrified nor did they feel the need to even ask me about it.
    Btw, in answer to how many teachers or staff have CPLs, the answer is 4 out of the 12 of us. Also, many of the others have expressed their wish that those of us who do carry everywhere else could also carry at school. So to me, the suggestion that educators in general are opposed to this is not supported by my personal experience. But, think that some who would carry would prefer to conceal…me, I just want the district to allow me to carry at work, method is beside the choice.

    See: MSP Legal Update #86 for OC in a school and other zones.

  53. As a both a teacher and a CPL holder who carries everywhere and anytime it is legal, I support this 100%. I teach in Michigan and our Republican governor just vetoed a bill eliminating the No CC zones. Currently, it is legal for a CPL holder to openly carry a firearm in a school, CC however is prohibited.

    Have I OCd at a school? Yes, but this was not where I am employed. I chose not to due to the right of employers to dismiss for violating policy. While openly carrying my pistol, no one ran away terrified nor did they feel the need to even ask me about it.
    Btw, in answer to how many teachers or staff have CPLs, the answer is 4 out of the 12 of us. Also, many of the others have expressed their wish that those of us who do carry everywhere else could also carry at school. So to me, the suggestion that educators in general are opposed to this is not supported by my personal experience.

    However, I do think that some who would carry would prefer to conceal…me, I just want the district to allow me to carry at work, method is beside the point.

    See: MSP Legal Update #86 for OC in a school and other zones.
    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._86_2_336854_7.pdf

  54. Open carry is fairly provocative to the non-gun types…I would suggest concealed carry for those that choose to do so. I would also think it’s time to put armed security on all public schools NOW and have that be common knowledge as a deterrent to the next wannabe massacre perpetrator. With the media whipping up this frenzy non-stop for the last week, the copy cat risk is high…anyone remember the parade of airline hijackings in the 70’s? Nothing to generate waves of mass murder like our 24/7 news cycle and the vultures that inhabit the media.

  56. Should Teachers Open carry?

    No.

    Instead let’s start with a FNH P90 (if its good enough for the Secret Service..)and a Kevlar vest kept in a locked cabinet accessible to a select few school employees and a can of industrial strength mace in each teacher’s classroom.

    If we get that done, we can talk about other things.

  57. Why on earth would open carry “deter” a madman who is choosing murder & suicide? There is no deterence for madmen. The smart ones will better prepare and the weapon might, reduce the damage of the prepared madman, but what about the madman that went crazy today but did not have a weapon until he took it off the armed teacher. This is the stupidist idea yet.

    BTW how many incidents of assault occur between coaches and parents – Now you want that automatically escalated to gun play – arround CHILDREN.

    Come on, if you are talking about well trained and vetted individuals that understand when to use a gun, the consequences and the appropriate use – fine. Unfortunately, the averabe individual who thinks before they use a gun again an individual who does not consider the consequence (ie a madman) is usually shot dead.

    If you excuse the pun, please feel free to shoot holes in my argument. The argument is that anyone can use a gun and is responsible for their own training and actions, I agree. But when that decision is wrong, the individual must bear the consequences for their actions. Mistakes that kill innocent people need to be prevented not enabled. Sending our kids to school in most of this country is a requirement. The argument that the mass murder are outliers is legitimate but the accidently death and mistaken deaths caused by gun and those not properly trained to use them is a worse risk than preventing mass murders.

    Weapons bans are less important that tracking of guns and training those that use them. I need a learners permit and a driving test to get a drivers license. How come I can buy a semi-automatic with with a clip of 100 without one stitch of training? Seems pretty stupid to me. How come the NRA crowd is so afraid of tracking guns from Manufacturers to the criminal at home and abroad so we can identify the gun dealer that give all other gun dealers a bad name? How come?

  58. I personally don’t think it’s a good idea for teachers to open carry just for the image it presents to young children and the sense that there might be something to be afraid of, not to mention that open carry means you have control over the gun and some may not. But on the flip side I definitely support teachers for Concealed Carry and prefer they not be identified by the school but remain anonymous thereby denying the perp from knowing who is or is not carrying. This would be a great deterrent yet not present an open target like say an officer would (take out the guy with the gun then we’re back to defenseless. I think there should be 6-10 minimum concealed unidentified packing teachers in any school trained for an event should it happen, and like was mentioned, odds are it will never happen at any given school.

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