“‘Everybody has one of these in their drawer or on their person. I would not want to come into one of my facilities,’ (Lance) Toland said. ‘It’s a 5 shot .410, just like a shotgun and you call it hand cannon.’” Toland, owner of Lance Toland Associates, an aviation insurance agency, requires that all his employees pack while on the job and gives each of them a Taurus Judge once they qualify for their Georgia concealed carry permit. He says he adopted the everyone-carries-at-work policy due to a bump in crime in the Atlanta area. As the Judge will load .45 Colts and .410 shot shells, it’s certainly versatile. Still . . .

I’m not sure that would be my designated company handgun if I were issuing pistols to my employees. I go with a GLOCK 43 as it’s thinner, lighter and much more concealable. If I were open carrying around an office all day (like the women in the news report above), I’d probably pick a full size duty gun like an M&P9 or maybe a SIG P229 Legend. But that’s me. How ’bout you? If you were Toland and mandated carry in your offices, which gun would you hand out to your employees?

RELATED ARTICLESMORE FROM AUTHOR

114 COMMENTS

  1. I think you mixed up the Judge, which accepts .410 and .45 LC, with the S&W Governor, which takes those two as well as .45 ACP.

    Unless there’s been a significant update to the Judge about which I am not aware.

  2. Literally anything but a judge. Possibly the worst handgun I could think of to arm people in an office environment.

    First choice of people that have no idea what they’re doing.

    • Yup. Big, heavy, not very effective. Pretty much the opposite of what you want to give untrained people.

      The policy does have the advantage of rooting out anyone with a criminal or psychiatric background that can’t get a permit.

    • I hear this exact statement all over the Internet, what is your personal experience that leads you to this conclusion?

      • Second that. Let’s hear it.

        Especially given the handgun-specific loads being made in 410 now, they seem like a fine choice, so is there actually a problem (besides the Taurus Stigma), or do ITG’s just not like them for the sake of not liking them?

        • I have a Raging Judge Magnum, the difference being min shoots .454 Casull in addition to .45 Colt and .410. With both .454 and .45 Colt its one of the most accurate handguns I own, but the .410 shells are touchy. I missed a cottontail rabbit 3 times with no. 4 shot at about 10 feet, the pattern was too thin and the pellets basically just made a ring around the rabbit. I was able to quickly reload a .45 colt FTX round and managed to bag it though.

      • Owned a Judge for a period of months, and I can say from personal experience it would not be a go-to for me in an emergency.

        Never a malfunction and.45 Colt shot with semi-reasonable accuracy. That said, make sure you have a wooden dowel with you at all times to back out any shot shells. And in some cases, the 45 brass as well. And it doesn’t need to be hot at all to lock shells in the cylinder.

        Sticky cylinder, combined with mediocre (being generous) trigger and just outright horrible balance for a handgun… it was sold fairly quickly.

    • My opinion: He understands that his employees have different skill levels and expects they will load the .410s with shot, minimizing both over penetration of interior walls and the amount of unintended collateral damage with missed shots. Any Bad Guy looking down that .45 barrel, on the other hand, does not know this. Also, everybody is armed so even if a .410 with shot is not as effective as a solid round, the BG is faced with many of these pointed in his direction.

      My other opinion, the above notwithstanding, provide a voucher for a pistol of their choice from a list of possibilities so that they can pick the one that works best for them. It’s a good bet most of the women will off-body carry a monster like the Judge, which is not optimum.

  3. Beat me to it-NO 45acp for the Brazilian bazooka. Personally not what I would give employees. A real shotgun or a high capacity semi-auto in 9mm. Why a hidey gun like a low capacity 43? No need to hide…

    • If I worked at an office that gave me a $500 clothing advance or something I would run to discount suit place or walmart and drop $100 on clothes and then spend $400 on a gun. Imagine that was reversed for a non-gunner, run out and buy a Sccy or hi-point for half or less and pocket the rest.

      • As many of you know…I own two Hi Points and will get a third one soon.
        Personal choice for me. A good gun for me and my wife likes hers. Price not withstanding they are reliable and accurate but what the individual said I think is exactly correct. A weapon is a VERY PERSONAL CHOICE.

        • Indeed. I have a friend who has HKs and Performance Center revolvers, a Volquaretsen Mark 2, etc.
          He also has an SR9, and while it’s not got his favorite “ergonomics package” the guy can hit the bullseye at 25 yards all day with it.

    • Rather simple question. Some would get 9mm in either single stack or double stack, depending on use. Some would get 357’s, some perhaps a Kimber 380 for great concealability, but…all Democrats would receive a 22 with a broken firing pin until they prove they are sufficiently responsible to have a fully functioning firearm.

      • If you look at the 4473, on the back page that nobody ever seems to look at, under the rules for answering the actual purchaser question it specifically says that if you are purchasing as a gift, to answer yes to that question. I can’t believe how many people have signed a 4473 that haven’t read the whole thing. It is available in PDF for download if you want to take your time reading it.

        • I’ve made 2 purchases and signed Form 4473 both times. Is your point that had my purchase been a gift for someone else, I would have answered Yes, and the FFL would not be able to make the transfer?

        • Keith,

          The question on the form is “Are you the actual buyer?” You must answer “yes” for the sale to go through. On the last page of the form, the instructions specifically state “You are the actual buyer if you are legitimately buying the firearm as a gift for another person.” So if you’re buying it as a gift with your own money, you answer “yes”, and the sale proceeds. It’s only a straw purchase if someone gives you the money to buy a gun for them.

    • If it’s still company-issued property, it’s not a straw purchase. User may or may not require a background check, depending on the state.

    • Maybe it’s owned by the company and signed out to the employee for personal use? Unless they are in one of those miserable states that require background checks for any transfer of a firearm that should work. If the employee is terminated they have to return the pistol to get their final check/severance, else report the pistol as stolen.

  6. “… which gun would you hand out to your employees?”

    Hand-outs?!?! What the f*ck, TTAG…

    Y’all been drinking that Bernie kool-aid? Capitalism and personal freedom, mofo. Carry what you want and buy your own damn gun.

    • Companies issue tools for doing the jobs i.e. mops, buckets, whatever… If you require your employees to carry at work, why not issue handguns as well? I would also offer the employee the option of carrying their own gun and I’m pretty sure that open cary is legal on all private property, so concealment is not much of an issue in the office.

      So… Much as I hate them, I’d hand out Glock 19s. Light enough to be practical, but with enough mass to be controllable. Not everybody in the office needs to schlep around with a boat anchor on their hip.

      • That was my thought as well, G-19. Most options for holsters, for sights, etc etc etc… probably the closest thing there is to a “Universal” pistol. My only complaint and the only reason I don’t own one is I like my guns Ambidextrous these days. So for me it’s an FNX-9

      • G19 sounds pretty reasonable. I might go with the S&W SD9VE instead to save a few bucks and still get a comparable gun. The basic XD 9mm is also pretty reasonably priced and easy to shoot.

        Actually, my preference would be a steel framed 3″ old school 5-shot Rossi model 68 revolver. They are easy to shoot, small and easy to carry, idiot proof, and very inexpensive.

        • K frame police turn ins in .38. Just about murphy proof. And if you’re requiring all employees to carry, sooner or later you’re going to hire murphy.

        • Definitely revolver of some sort. Easier battery of arms. Capacity is not as much of an issue as:

          1. More than one person is armed.

          2. It’s an indoor environment w/ civilians – not the eastern front.

          Also, in such tight confines, is is a very likely that a contact shot will have to be made. Touchy touchy and pistol slides do not mix well.

    • A private corporation giving something for “free” to an employee is not a hand out. It’s a form of compensation as all corporate money was earned by the employees. On the other hand, Bernie wants use force to take money those who earned it and give it to those who didn’t. It’s a form of theft.

  7. Technically while not intended to, it can take .45 ACP as well, it just requires thinner moon clips than commonly available

  8. I no longer have employees, but if I did it would have to be a .44 magnum revolver. And if you couldn’t handle the .44 I’d show you the door. Interviews would be conducted at the range.

    Only the highest caliber employees for my company.

  9. If I had employees, I’d let them carry whatever they were comfortable carrying. Not everyone wants to carry a .45LC hand cannon. Maybe some are more comfortable with a subcompact .380. Others would rather have a full-size 9mm duty pistol. And yeah, there’s always gonna be that one guy who’s gonna walk around with a long-barrel .357 Magnum. Let them do as they please.

    As an aside, the only employees I’d INSIST carry a weapon would be ones who regularly carry large amounts of cash or valuable merchandise out in public. And in that case I’d pay for all training (including a box per week of the employee’s preferred caliber for practice, and I’d even allow them some time off work to practice. Employees who don’t do that kind of stuff I wouldn’t prevent from carrying, but I wouldn’t require them to either. If you aren’t comfortable in your ability to handle a weapon, you shouldn’t carry it. And I don’t want to force people into doing something they don’t want to do.

  10. I’m not sure what the problem is.

    This is a simple gun that isn’t terribly difficult to use.

    Since everyone is carry the same gun, ammunition problems go away. And, while there are only a limited number of shots available, since everyone has one, total firepower is impressive.

    Not necessarily a bad plan.

    • I was also thinking of ammunition commonality.

      So, how about 9mm in something like the Ruger SR9? Based on everything that I have heard, those pistols appear to be ultra-reliable and function flawlessly on literally every kind of ammunition ever made.

      And if someone wants a smaller version, they can choose the SR9c (compact).

      • Reading the article, part of the reason for that choice of gun was lower chance of over-penetration…

        • Meh, then shoot 115 grain hollowpoints in 9mm … I cannot imagine those are at any risk at all of over-penetration. In anything that load would be at risk of under-penetration.

  11. I would give them an allotment to purchase a handgun that fits them. Some might have small hands that don’t fit a full size handgun. Some might have large hands that don’t work with small guns. I’ll hand them money and advice, and maybe a box of practice ammo, and that’s all I could do.

  12. Very good question. For sure it would be a double-action revolver, probably in .38 Special, probably 5-shot and possibly DAO. Beyond that I’d encourage my folks to trade them in on upgrades and/or carry whatever they feel comfy with.

  15. Colt Pythons, for the style. High cap XDm 40’s for the real shit. 300 BLK suppressed SBR’s with 40rd PMAGs for the double real shit

  16. If you watch the video some of the employees are carrying firearms other than that Judge so it’s obvious that they’re given some discretion as to what to carry in the office.

  17. They probably have really fun team building outings. I kind of lust after the S&W Governor, although I perpetually fall for the gimmick of multi-caliber anything. But in a big-box office-park building full of thin crappy walls, the real question is what would you put in all the tubes?

    As a business, I wouldn’t go advertising that my office has a bunch of guns lying about. That seems like it is asking to be robbed at night. Guns only deter thieves while there’s a person to use them, alone they’re enticing targets for sticky fingers.

  18. I’m actually in support of the Judge. I’ve owned one for a while now and really love the versatility it offers, especially when I take it out hiking. I’ve had plenty of run-ins with nasty animals, including a big angry Elk, and it did the job well enough.

    It’s not the absolute end all be all weapon or anything, but the tailor-made .410 handgun loads that are widely available now pattern well out to 25 feet and they pack a good punch to boot, without being crazy on the recoil.

    Shooting .45LC defensive loads out of these feels like shooting a 38 specials as well. It isn’t going to blow up your wrist and they offer very comparable performance / velocities to compact .45ACP handguns.

    The Judges are not horrible inaccurate either. I can hit a man sized target repeatedly in the chest at 20 yards with .45 Long Colt rounds. It’s not a bullseye pistol by any stretch of imagination, but it will do the job.

    I think nay-sayers simply need to actually shoot one before they diss it.

  19. Glock 19 or an SP101, probably. I’d want to pick something:

    * Simple: consistent trigger pull, no manual safeties to fiddle around with.

    * Reliable: well, duh. It’s a defensive gun, not a range toy.

    * Good for new shooters: Just about anyone can learn to shoot 9mm or .38SPL accurately. If the gun guys want to load +P rounds or full-house .357s, God bless ’em.

  20. I’d prefer to let someone choose their own gun.

    But if I had to make the choice I’d go for something like the Ruger SR9/9E. Simple operation, redundant safeties for those new to guns, relatively inexpensive and a company with great customer service.

    But again people should choose whichever gun suits them best…except when they choose anything Taurus.

  21. The Governor is my/wifes nightstand gun. Our joke is when I’m out to sea is “She’s sleeping with the Governor”. Trinium front sight. Loaded with Hornandy critical defense .410 rounds. @ 25 yards puts all 3 in a paper dinner plate. At 6 feet the rounds are almost stacked. One shot is a “burst” 3 projectiles – 6 shots = a full mag out of a wonder nine.(18 “rounds”) No idiot safety, no hollywood slide racking,no failure to eject, no jams. portable + magnum power. If I need more than 6 grab the AR. Or just beat them to death with the Governor. To me it’s the finest home protection firearm bar none. Or mix it up, 2 .410’s- 2 45 acp- 2 45 colts. Your choice. I don’t think ANYONE could take a .410 shot center mass with this or the Federal .410 handgun 000 and not be DRT. Accurate,powerful,reliable and easy to use.

  22. Sign me up! Where do I apply? I sure wish my company allowed me to carry at work. I’d say there are only 10-15 felons that work here and of that maybe 2 of them are self proclaimed 1%’ers… Yeah and if I wanted to cc with my valid permit I’d be the bad guy. Crazy world.

  23. If I actually wanted to arm an entire office staff for a company I would strongly consider the S&W SD9VE. Cheap, good capacity, and I have heard only good things about the reliability. This is assuming the gun was not going to be carried concealed.

  24. if i was toland my assistant would be handing out .38 medium frame revolvers, because i would be on vacation. but i’ve never met anyone that i would hire. including myself. which is why i’m not toland.

    • I don’t understand only standardizing caliber. What’s the point? If in a fire fight and one good guy has a Glock 19 and one good guy has a Beretta it can cause a problem. The controls are totally different. As far as ammo commonality what does it matter because it will be in mags for guns that do take each others mags…

  26. A bunch of us at a company I use to work at use to go to the range on a Saturday on occasion. Great bunch of folks and a wide range of what was viewed as a good choice for personal defense. Nearly all of us had weapons carry license, but the company we worked for would not have viewed showing up for work gun on hip in a positive manner.

    They had key card access on all external doors and unarmed rent a cop level security (nice folks but useless against real bad guys). All this to my mind made all the funnier by the fact that right down the street was the US Glock campus. But then again Glock doesn’t make blue guns anyway….

    • Most armed security companys use the .38 round in any .357 magnum handguns. Insurance reasons. and no +P or +P+.. Who knows how insurance companys brains work? Up until a few years ago the US customs carried .357 revolvers but they shot +P+ 38 ammo in them. Seems dumb huh?

  28. Judge seems as good as any to me. Simple, heavy enough, not too expensive. Wide choice of ammo, many without too much penetration. A moot question for me though as I don’t have employees.

  29. AR-15 SBR in .458 SOCOM with a snail mag and Bowers Vers 458 suppressors, plus Glock 40 MOS for sidearm.

  30. What’s a Sig 229 Legend? I might buy a Sig 229 Legion for me, but it’s too pricey too gift employees.

    • One of the FFLs I frequent is primarily a jewelry store with a couple of cases of guns in the back. All the employees in the store carry, which I have always felt is quite appropriate given the nature of their primary business. I don’t know if it is their choice or the owner makes them do it (he is a gun enthusiast and has an awesome personal collection). But in my opinion it is like the fact that my employer forces me to wear a hard hat and safety glasses, a gun should be looked at as just another piece of safety equipment.

  34. Here is a war story.
    One of my Professors at IPFW was in combat infantry in the Vosges fighting the Waffen SS Mountain units. He was in heavy combat and took watches off dead German soldiers. He stated after all the enemy small arms fire, artillery and tank fire; that the nearest he came to getting killed was by an American forklift driver in an American factory. Go figure.

  35. I keep imagining going to work for the gun range, having the boss tell me, as we do the new hire paperwork, “Now Steve, you’ll have to carry on the job.”

    “Oh, darn.”

    Can’t have a gun in the building, where I do work.

    I’d want people to have some sort of handgun, with an AR-15 (or equivalent–anyone know how good the Bren 805 is?) kept in a “break glass in case of emergency” case, for those who don’t bring one of their own. (Figure out some way to lock that sucker up, at night.) But I’d make carry optional. No point pushing someone who doesn’t care about ’em into carrying one they won’t practice with.

  37. which gun would you hand out to your employees?

    I’d give them extensive training and then let them pick their own gun.

  38. I absolutely love how virtually everyone on this comment board feels A.obligated to show off their vast knowledge of firearms, ammunition, accessories, etc. B.obligated to show how they only buy guns more expensive than a Taurus. Priceless.

    • Get over it.
      “The Truth About Bicycles” comment board is the same way.
      Wouldn’t ride a Schwinn if you gave me one.

      • Nothing to get over. I did, after all, say it was “priceless”. Love to see people tripping over themselves to prove their moral, intellectual, physical, financial, etc., “superiority”.

  39. Unless it’s a security job, requiring employees to carry is over the top. He should just encourage them to do so and pay for training and a suitable firearm.

    The Judge is a terrible choice. If he insists on standardization, the Glock 19 would be far better. Best of all would be to let each employee pick the handgun that best suits him or her.

  40. Hate to say it, but I wouldn’t issue a company gun to company employees if they weren’t directly related to their job function. There’s too much potential liability for negligence, loss, or general hazard associated with untrained people getting a gun and carrying it around for the first time (or leaving it in a desk drawer while they go to the bathroom or the water cooler or breakroom, whatever). They’re going to leave it somewhere, put it somewhere where children can get it, fiddle with it in meetings or on a conference call or otherwise screw up and it will cost everyone a pile. And that’s for normal, relatively untrained people. Drug or alcohol users are a whole different level of problem. Unless your company is actively screening for such activity, it is very likely that a company of any decent size would, knowingly or unknowingly, put a firearm in the hands of a drug or alcohol user with, let’s call it, wildly unpredictable results. Screening would also have to include felons, abusers, etc. so a full background check would be in order.

    To the extent that I felt that it was absolutely imperative to give them guns anyway, I’d want to take every single employee, load them on a bus, take them to a well-run range, and put them through a full formal training session on gun safety and concealed carry run by certified professionals. There’s no way I would do any of this without first having some confidence level that they understood fundamentals of safe gun handling, proper storage and maintenance, and the laws associated with use of the firearm.

    Then, I’d want to make sure they’re not going to be shooting over-powered rounds clean through the office walls. That’s a little harder to solve and definitely harder to enforce but a .410 shotgun round might be appropriate if a bit wide-angled. I wouldn’t give them the Judge or the Governor though. Maybe a Bond Arms 2-shot derringer. This is supposed to be an emergency defensive weapon, after all, not Charles Bronson-style action.

    So, to recap: Full background checks and screening, maybe $100 per employee. Full training session: a half-day’s work of maybe $50 or $100 plus maybe $200 per person depending on the range, rentals and ammo, then the ammo so it’s uniform and not horribly hazardous to the whole office, and finally the guns themselves at maybe $400 to $500 each (and I would certainly angle for a volume discount). You’re talking almost a thousand dollars per employee to do this properly as opposed to just slapping a gun in their hand and hoping for the best.

    • Michael Bloombucks is proud of you for that. You spew out the same speculative fears, contrary to actual experience, that are spewed by the whole anti-gun Chicken Little society.

      Concealed carry licensees have proven to be incredibly law-abiding, and firearms accidents have continued to decline through the years while license numbers have risen sharply.

      • You missed my point completely. It’s Bloomberg and the attack attorneys I’m worried about, not someone who, on their own initiative, goes out and gets a concealed carry permit with the training and background check that involves. They can carry in my company anytime. I do. I hope others do, but it’s never come up.

        For any company in today’s environment however, make one mistake, one slip-up, and a ton of attorneys are sitting there waiting to sue the company into oblivion. It is the company which cannot issue the guns because of the liability.

    • Seems a bit paranoid considering negligent discharges rates are fairly low. I assume the company already does their best to recruit high quality, responsible people and these people do manage to drive to work in their statistically more dangerous cars everyday after all. I would set simple rules prohibiting unnecessary handling of firearms, require safe storage or personal carry, and offer a company discount to a local range. That should cover the bases.

    • Usually the employees are more dangerous with forklifts, Bobcats, cranes, molten metal, and automated machinery lines than guns.

  41. I’d go with a revolver since it is to be a desk drawer gun. If I had to buy them I would get the EAA Corp Windicator 357MAG 6rd 4-inch because I am a cheap bastard. 6 rounds is decent capacity. 4″ barrel is easy to aim. Limp wristed guys could load 38 special.

  42. I’d tell my people to go buy a handgun, holster and a box of defense ammo and bring me the receipt for reimbursement.

    And I wouldn’t make it mandatory. Not everyone can handle that kind of responsibility.

  43. If I’m buying, probably a revolver, and probably one of the Ruger DA revolvers. Good bang:buck, not as much training time needed.

  44. The moral of this story is that the company owner is a REALLY GOOD BOSS! Rather than nitpick firearm choice, think about it….. wouldn’t you want to work for him?

    • Not necessarily. All we really know is that he runs a very firearms-friendly workplace. He could still be an absolute raging asshole to work for.

  48. I’ve found a Ruger LCR-X 3″ to be a really comfortable gun to carry and shoot. I put a Crimson Trace grip on mine and it’s great that way. For concealed, I’d prefer a snubnose LCR, but for less-experienced shooters where concealment isn’t the first priority, the slightly greater sight radius, better sights, fullsize grip and exposed hammer can all be valuable.

  49. Given that I’m probably somewhat limited on funds, it would probably be a 9mm semi auto that I could get a bulk discount on. More than likely, Gen 4 G19/17 for the Blue Label if I was able. 33rd sticks make life easy if the extra firepower is needed. Can I write these off as a business expense at the end of the year? Everyone has 3 mags, all the same mags and ammo. Team building exercises would consist of team shooting competitions, best team gets a paid day off or something.

  50. Quick check around the office here reveals a variety of choices. My peeps carry a small Sig (she didn’t show me), G19, LCP, Colt Commander ( I had no idea but he’s a big boy), and for me a LC9S Pro.

    I also got a couple of blank stares. Their reviews might be a bit tougher at the end of the Quarter.

  51. A 1911 full size in 45 ACP. Two spare eight round mags in their pocket. Brand name may vary.

    That’s what I carry at work. A Kimber Stainless Steel II.

    But hey, everyone in the shop carries something, at least everyone is permitted with a LTC and carries either openly or concealed. The “shop” is a automotive repair shop. Its their choice of what to carry and how to carry. It works where I work, your mileage may vary.

  52. Wow, am I amazed at how many people are throwing bricks at this guy and his company. In my opinion it sounds like a great place to work. The choice of firearms may not be my cup of tea but if you want it to be done better open a successful company and supply your firearm of choice. Until then I think people here are missing the forest for the trees.

    • I got no problem with the Governor or the Judge. They’re not my cup of tea, but anybody who starts anything in that office is going to have a very bad day,

  53. Hmm.. good question. Personally i would give them a .380 type of gun. A smaller caliber but in most work environments you are usually close to your attacker and it would minimize any through and through accidents from people that dont know .. know whats behind your target type thinking. Or perhaps a ,22 caliber.
    a 9mm is ok, but wont it go though a person or have a higher chance too? anything higher, you are asking for casualties imo.

  54. My employees are mostly women, so I would probably choose a relatively heavy .380 like a Glock 42 or Bersa to minimize recoil issues, fit most hands, and be easy to carry concealed. Having said that, one of the women I work with has a .45 and another female employee in a previous job had her own Judge, and was very proud of it. But a lot of you have said it best — give a money allowance and let them get their own. Hand size and recoil sensitivity just vary too much in both men and women.

  55. 9mm. More capacity, less recoil. Fits more hands.

    The pistols would be company owned and issued. When someone leaves they have the option to buy. Otherwise it’s returned to the company. Loss of pistol is termination, police report and charge for the loss.

    Regular range trips plus gunsmith checks for cleaning and function.

    Last a sign:” gun frees zone. However staff is armed and will shoot.”

  56. 9mm M&P Sheilds with the Apex Trigger kit. They are not a gun I love. To be honest I don’t own one but I have worked on a few. They are reliable and user friendly. Not to mention very easy to carry.

  59. I think a judge would be fine, nothing makes people stop doing what they’re doing like a firing squad of office workers hammering them with .410 shotshells and chunks of lead the size of a grape

  60. I think a steel frame Judge would make a good snake gun for fishing and hunting (but add a lanyard ring). For every day open carry at the job site it would be a P226 or CZ-75 (if the boss picked up the tab).

    If you’re thinking that I like heavy handguns you are correct!

    Charlie

Comments are closed.