“Community policing is yet another local use, according to Molnar, who said [the MRAP] can be used by the school resource officer and featured at town events such as parades. ‘It’s a great opportunity for the public to learn about the police and what we do,’ Molnar said. ‘It’s definitely a big icebreaker with the kids.'” – Watertown Police Sgt. Curt Molnar quoted in More military armored surplus going to police departments [via stripes.com]
We will police you from within our armored military machine.
This is the problem with uneducated cops getting promoted to chief. He knows nothing about community policing.
At first I thought this was Watertown, MA whose (warrantless) officers ordered civilians out of their homes at gun point while searching for the Boston Marathon bomber.
Community policing starts with integrating with one’s community rather than being aloof, distinct from, or otherwise separated from a community. A great way to start is to stop using the word “civilian” when referring to the general citizenry – police are not covered by UCMJ so they cannot legitimately infer themselves as being non-civilian. Besides, if police were covered by the UCMJ, it’s be unlawful because of the Posse Comitatus.
Would “bipedal carbon-based life forms” be more PC? Homo sapiens? Home snakes?
It’s not a PC issue. It’s about masquerading as active duty military. How about “fellow citizens”, “non-LEO”, or “neighbors” – you know, something that reflects reality?
I thought the EPA put a stop to MRAPs on American soil.
They did. And then the U.S. government cut a deal whereby Uncle Sam maintains ownership of the vehicles and leases them to local PDs. A police carve-out, basically, which also means they can’t be sold to civilians anymore. Which kills the secondary market for MRAPs. Which makes them white elephants. Again. Still.
@RF, “Which makes them white elephants.” Exactly.
From http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/white+elephant :
“white elephant
noun
1.
a possession unwanted by the owner but difficult to dispose of: Our Victorian bric-a-brac and furniture were white elephants.
2.
a possession entailing great expense out of proportion to its usefulness or value to the owner: When he bought the mansion he didn’t know it was going to be such a white elephant.
3.
an abnormally whitish or pale elephant, usually found in Thailand; an albino elephant.
——————————————————————————–
Origin:
1850–55; from the perhaps apocryphal tale that the King of Siam would award a disagreeable courtier a white elephant, the upkeep of which would ruin the courtier ”
Hardly something to spark fear and panic.
Great ice breaker with the kids. Yep, thats right Timmy, get used to seeing this. Its totally normal, the way it should be.
BAN ASSAULT TRUCKS! For the children!
Sorry guys – I have a hard time getting hot and bothered about this when as a civvy we can still buy our own tanks. Sure it’s expensive, but we can.
@TheBear, exactly! If it saves the life of just one child, we must ban them!!!! AHHHHHRGGGGGHHHHHHH…….ban all trucks!!!! Do it now, for the future.
@TheBear
You seem like a pretty decent guy, but your use of the term “civvy” makes me want to slap you just a little bit…
😛
Sorry man. I just meant anyone, including people with no military service what-so-ever.
For instance, I personally have never understood why in some states, you can only buy an auto opening knife as a LEO or soldier.
@TheBear
No worries. I figured you used the term loosely and not with the same connotation with which it’s frequently employed. The word just raises the hair on the back of my neck due to the implied distinction between “us” and “them.”
I’m also glad you seemed to pick on my post tongue in cheek. 🙂
I went to the linked article and the chief at least talks about how the truck’s winch can clear fallen trees and other debris off the road, can drive thru 3 feet of water, and be used as a rescue vehicle. I well remember after hurricane Sandy blew thru the northeast, how many roads were unpassable due to fallen trees and flooded creeks, blocked storm drains, etc. Frankly thinking about it, I am seeing more legitimate uses for these MRAPS as Mr. Farago keeps posting these stories. Put a snow plow on the front of one of these, and you have a 6 wheel drive machine that could clear a road of snow or mud that the typical rear wheel drive dump truck couldn’t budge.
Based on your argument there is no good reason not to have purchased a Remington R51 because so many print magazines gave it glowing reviews. There is certainly a lot of positive material on the R51 in Remington’s press releases, the reality is wildly different, right?
I COULD fell some trees on my property with a circular saw, because it cuts stuff. But that’s clearly not its intended purpose or the best use of the tool.
Wait a minute….I own a 6 wheel drive vehicle….its floorboards are 3′ above the road….it can pull downed trees from the road…but it can’t withstand landmines or IED’s or EFP’s. It’s called the M35A2 a.k.a. the Deuce and a half, and they’re for sale cheap on government auction sites everyday. Starting at $2,000 and up, mine cost $4,800. So it’s not about how many other plausible utilitarian uses you can think up for the MRAP, it’s about the reason that this COMBAT vehicle was developed in the first place. It is a tool of WAR…and as such, has no place serving on civilian streets in it’s current configuration. My Deuce is just a painfully loud, slow, unarmored, 6WD truck. If we accept MRAP’s built with our tax dollars, will we be so accepting if the Fedgov starts giving the police free Bradley Fighting Vehicles? How about old, M1A1 Abrams tanks? If the safety of the police is paramount to all other considerations, then the Abrams is definitely the way to go, yes? Think of it like this. It’s only in the most socialist, 3rd world toilets on this planet, that the police possess and operate MILITARY vehicles like the MRAP.
@Out_Fang_Thief, holy cow! And then the next thing they will give them will be surplus Apollo rockets and the the local police will launch an invasion of the moon too! RUN FOR THE HILLS!!!! Scary trucks!!!! Run away, run away!
@OutFangTheif
It’s called the M35A2 a.k.a. the Deuce and a half, and they’re for sale cheap on government auction sites everyday. Starting at $2,000 and up, mine cost $4,800.
Well said. A well maintained ‘deuce’ with a winch or two is a great tool. Same goes for the HumVee.
And the acquisition and maintenance costs will be 90% less than than a MRAP.
Cant reply to your reply for some reason but in response to why do some states (mine) only allow LEO’s and military service persons to buy and carry auto knives…because obviously they are the only ones who can be trusted with sharp pointy things deployed with a spring. It is truly ridiculous.
Guys… in case my point got lost here, how can we get all riled up about police departments buying things that normal people can buy /superior/ versions of? I don’t get it.
Sure, I’d like a more modern armored vehicle like an MRAP, but pit an MRAP against a Sherman tank and see which one wins.
Sure, but we don’t buy a tank on the premise that we need it to make holes in buildings for a no-knock raid.
Most of the depts. buying these things don’t either.
Back in my day they just stuck the rookie in a detective dog suit.
RF, you are a broken record.
The point he is illustrating is just how much of this is going on all over the country.
@XDs 45, I’m sure RF can speak up if he wants to. Regardless, he is a broken record. His fear of trucks is both pedantic and monotonous.
if you don’t like it, step aside and let the next interwebz denizen that is waiting for the chance to get on board with TTAG!
@Mediocrates, I’m not preventing anyone from joining the Truth About MRAPs.
And your fanatical support of a different class of American which is developing a very bad track record for heavy-handed control of the rest of the population is disturbing.
You’re no less monotonous than you say Farago is. Unlike Farago, however, you’re not providing evidence of a culture that is desensitizing the people to the fact that is developing the tools, practices, and infrastructure of tyranny. So what if the tornado sirens are wailing, we never get bad storms in these parts, right?
@MR, and that is the fault of scary trucks?
“trucks” good snark. “trucks” har
And here is a workers love wagon in a parade
http://m.cdn.blog.hu/sz/szirszarjaim/image/Tank_T-62%20prague.jpg
(T62 in Prague 1968)
Same mindset
@neiowa, that one on the right is an old time MRAP. The one center stage is an old time tank with a big gun. Two different animals.
“His fear of trucks…”
I find it bothersome that you minimize the issue here. Yes, it is a “truck” but it is an ARMORED *MILITARY* truck.
Let me guess… An AR-15 is also a pea shooter. *SMH*
@PsyHawk, it is a truck. It has armor. Big deal. Cops wear armor. Brinks trucks are armored. Brinks drivers wear armor.
Mount a big gun to it, mount a flame thrower to it, etc…then we are talking something to be concerned about.
As it is, its a big fat ugly truck. Oh I forgot, scary as hell to some. EGADS!!!! There is a scary truck afoot!!!!!!
Do you know what “pedantic” means…??? If not, perhaps you should look it up before using it again…
@WI Patriot, yep. That’s why I used it.
So you don’t think it was worth what you paid to read it?
Nobody’s forcing you to read his posts.
Nor stopping you from writing your own blog, should you choose to do so.
Personally I don’t agree with everything RF writes or posts about; but I very much appreciate what he’s out there doing, and I’m not going to criticize him on how he chooses to do it as I’m fairly sure I couldn’t do better. My talents lie in other areas.
@John L., well I reckon RF enjoys the response otherwise he wouldn’t leave it open for commentary. I am considering however, your suggestion of starting my own blog. Think I’ll call it, The Truth About Scary Trucks. I’m sure I’ll get a lot of joiners…
As you are El Mac; you obviously haven’t read the thoughts of our founding fathers; studied much of history or kept up with current events. (like the NDAA- indefinite detention; denial of habeas corpus, etc).
The only real danger the POTG face is not some criminal in the street; not if they have a gun and they keep good situational awareness. The only real danger is from a bunch of militarized enforcers with the mentality of the poster called Officer breaking down doors and enforcing what ever law the current administration chooses to enact.
The mentality of the poster called Officer here on TTAG is I believe more common among cops than we would like to admit. Put a group of that type of Jack Booted Thug mentality in a MRAP with a bunch of guns; sends chills down my back.
If you can’t see the danger from such a scenario EL Mac; then I see you as part of the problem.
@ThomasR, you sound just like the Leftists in our godvernment. If you can point out to me where our Founders had anything to say about scary trucks, please advise. I’ll wait. (Kinda like the Leftists who say, where does it say anything in our 2A about “assault rifles”…)
I saw less fear of scary trucks from goat farmers in Afghanistan that I see here on this forum. Funny.
“You sound just like the leftists” I had a good chuckle at that El Mac.
“I saw less fear of scary trucks from goat farmers in Afghanistan that I see here on this forum. Funny”
Arrogant, condescending, dismissive, showing nothing but contempt for your fellow citizens concern at the militarization of the police.
You have the statist, elitist superior attitude down really well El Mac. You come across more like the other poster Officer than anything.
You confirm by your attitude El Mac that my concerns are in fact valid. It is because of your contempt for us the people, that people like you will have no hesitation in enforcing unjust or unconstitutional laws.
You and your attitude is what our founders fathers warned us would happen when we the people stopped taking responsibility for our protection and placed it the hands of the “professionals”.
It’s not your fault El Mac. I blame the people for what you have become.
@ThomasR, no worries Tom. I understand what society has done to you. It breeds fear and dependence. You aren’t to blame. The first that you can do to combat your fear is gain knowledge. The more you know about your boogeyman, the less fearful he becomes and the more powerful you become.
Patton said it very well: “Take no counsel of your fears”.
If the worst thing the godvernmemt, in its boogeyman form, can do to me is throw an MRAP at me….I got some news for them.
@ El Mac
You really don’t see the problem? Sure, right now it’s ‘only’ a truck with armor, but why is it even there? What’s the intent behind having one? What’s the signal (or message) they’re sending when the acquire one? It sure does not look like “hey, we’re just your friendly neighborhood peace officers.” If you buy into the “it’s only for parades” BS then I’m sorry, but that’s just silly. Obviously, if our local PDs were outright getting hand-me-down tanks or humvees with 50 cal turrets mounted on top, there would be outrage. But if you build up your arsenal slowly, piece by piece, claiming that it’s ‘just in case’ or some other bogus reason, people tend not to notice, or they dismiss it as no big deal, just the way you do. Our founding fathers wanted a small, limited government. This police militarization is just another step in the opposite direction. Look over Radley Balko’s SWAT team stats. Their use has increased exponentially, regardless whether that’s warranted or not. And there are many, many cases where the show of force is not necessary, but the cops choose to do it anyway. Why? Just because they can? Maybe, but that’s not what a police department should be doing. They’re not supposed to be rolling around in military equipment, playing soldiers on Main Street. If you train cops to be soldiers and give them MRAPs instead of squad cars, they’ll perceive everybody else as an enemy. I know this sounds like a hyperbole, but that’s the path we’re on. It won’t happen overnight, but it will eventually.
The founding didn’t have much to say about drones either. Guess that means the government can dial in your home’s coordinates?
@DTAL, thanks. You made my point.
Nicely done El Mac. But what you say has a lot of truth. This society does breed dependency and fear. And the way to combat that is with knowledge.
So we will see how it turns out. There may be enough people that are actually free, independent people with an understanding of history and knowing what it takes to be free, to keep what so many gave their blood and their lives to give us.
@ThomasR, “There may be enough people that are actually free, independent people with an understanding of history and knowing what it takes to be free, to keep what so many gave their blood and their lives to give us.”
I pray that that be so!!!
I believe it’s the part where they warned about standing armies, and their use by an oppressive government against its own citizens.
@int19h, thank you! It is an oppressive godvernment we need to worry about. And the way to handle that is to vote them out.
The record’s not broken, it’s just the same song over and over. That’s the concerning part.
I get that now that everyone’s been brainwashed by sensational tabloid opinion journalism they feel that “if it’s not abnormal it’s not news”, but the fact that this isn’t considered abnormal IS abnormal. Will the first drone strike on US soil be something you want to know about but the 5th will just be a nuisance?
@Don, I actually understand the difference between a truck, especially one that will end up as a static display somewhere, and a full on drone strike or attack helicopter strike. Its a world of difference and I don’t need or depend on a goofy Scary Truck blog post to tell me so.
I don’t think you do understand the difference between a truck and an MRAP. It’s about $475,000, up front and ridiculously expensive service and operation costs.
@Don, and those MRAPs have long since been paid for….because they have been such an outstanding piece of equipment (not), DOD is willing giving them away to PDs so that DOD doesn’t have to bear the cost of getting rid of them or maintaining them…(that’s a clue by the way).
hence “service and operation costs”.
@Don, “Ignore the man behind the curtain here folks…nothing to see…move along now….”
So El Mac, you think that the police having these trucks is a useful? Why? Please explain to me why they need a truck designed for urban warfare? What threat are they going to face that justifies a police department owning an armored behemoth like an MRAP? Have the suburbs become bastions of ISIS? You can blithely go on talking about all of us posting here as being afraid but you don’t seek to understand our concern. WHY do the police need something like this? Most good cops that I have known did just fine with a 38 special, a nightstick and mostly the fact that they used their brains instead of resorting to overwhelming force.
@joseph Quixote, you ask a lot of strange questions make a lot of assumptions. I never said that coppers having MRAPS was a good thing. I just don’t believe that they are necessarily a bad thing. I do not buy into the TTAG hysteria and uber paranoia. By they way, MRAP were not designed for urban warfare.
El Mac, if you don’t like the police with them then why are you bothering to argue here? You state that the police having them is not necessarily a bad thing. I do. Please explain why you do not.
I did not give you many questions here so if you would please explain.
@JQ, why do you automatically assume it bad for the police to have them?
You answer my question then I will answer yours. In my opinion you have ducked about 10 different people’s questions just in the first 1/3 of this post.
@JQ, I’d answer your question, but I don’t even know what it is.
Here is my question from above quoting you.
“You state that the police having them is not necessarily a bad thing. I do. Please explain why you do not.”
SO, please explain why it is not necessarily a bad thing for the police to have MRAPS. Is that clear enough>?
@JQ, I’ve explained some of the positive things that can be done with an armored truck. Now, please explain why you are afraid of the police having one.
I bet that’s just what Bolivia’s UTARC used to say.
The same concept is used to justify parking confiscated sports cars in high school parking lots with little signs that read “This car used to belong to a drug dealer”.
So the public learns they waste money, posture and parade like princesses.
This particularly short copy and paste has exactly ‘what’ to do with guns?
Just getting you (and El Mac) used to seeing the vehicles that will be rolling up to your doors to drag you to re-education camps to get that icky gun owner mentality out of your head.
@Hobbez, if people like you Obama voters would stay home on election day….
Next up; FEMA camp field trip!
Ok.yeah kids think Army trucks are cool any idjit couldve told you that… why exactly are we goin over this?? Bout the pnly use that thing will see is the local parades & maybe visitin the school once in a while to play officer friendly.
@Jay1987, exactly.
We are going over this because these military vehicles aren’t being used by the military! They are being used in your neighborhoods by your next-door neighbors and now they want the kids to be ok with the thought of that.
OK, I’m now tired of this peeing contest.
I think we’re going over this because 1) the top cop most likely got this without seeking the taxpayers’ input; 2) the MRAP’s operating and maintenance costs down the road will probably exceed the rest of the town’s tax revenue in any given outyear; 3) driving the “tippy” MRAP will destroy pavement over a short time; and 4) the fool admits the town doesn’t even need it because it probably won’t be used for its intended purpose.
M’kay? Nap time now. Put your head down on the desk.
Is it an “icebreaker” or training to be oppressed or simply being normalized to militarization? I fail to see the value of this at parades or community events unless like many dictators it is used as show of force and respect of authority through fear. The long term costs (not just money, but abuse) versus any potential benefit eludes me.
Let’s be honest what little boy isn’t going to think the MRAP is cool. When I was a boy nothing got me more excited than seeing some death dealing military vehicle.
Kids love fire trucks too. Now the police can be as cool with little boys as the firemen are.
However, if the po po want to compete with hunky firemen for the ladies’ approval, they’re going to have to work out a lot more.
Hahahahaha
Thanks Juliesa. Spot on!
Absolutely true! A fire truck is definitely cooler than a police cruiser.
Any American man who says he never was excited by the display of this kind of hardware when he was a boy is either liar or pussy.
That about 1/2 of the MRAP thing. The cops of the US have a HUGE chip on their shoulder over the FD. Paid/Union or Volunteer (the FF, there is no such thing as a cop that isn’t paid)
1. When FD shows up its because someone called for them that is having a really really bad day. The FD will do something to make it better. Doesn’t really matter what the problem is the FD has a tool in the Big Red Truck (BRT) .
2. The FD has those BRT and the cops are stuck with the cute little sedans (see also why NEED black Suburbans or other 4×4/SUV)
3. Turnout gear makes FF look BIG not just FAT (see photo above, trust me that’s 100% body armor not lard).
4. FF have the long hoses and……………
5. For hazmat incidents the FD suits up, puts on our SCBA, get out the gas monitor, set up decon , walk in. Cops drive in (canary in coal mine) to see why Barney fell down.
6. When the FD has a fund raiser to pay for their equipment (volunteers) the public shows up to help the FD out. The PD has to “survive” by soaking the taxpayer, running speed traps, and asset fortiture.
It’s just not fair. DOD SHOULD be transferring to AH64 and Reapers.
And side note of DOD surplus transfers of surplus equipment to FD, dispite their claims, have not resumed. If anyone knows that LESO (to cops) transfers of these usesless POS have resumed I’m pissed and have to heat up the phone again. This was/is a EPA facists issue over diesel emissions. See previous threads.
I also add the following:
– when someone is stuck somewhere really stupid (eg, abandoned mine), who gets the first call for extraction? The FD. When someone has done something really, really stupid and gotten themselves stuck in something really dumb, who do they call to cut it off of them? The FD. FD’s have been called to deal with some really bizarre and twisted stuff. I’ll let your imagination do the work here.
– when a wildland fire is headed your way, who comes to make the informed decision whether you can reasonably stay or you must get you and your animals out to survive? The FD. Who might have a foam rig to help your house and buildings survive? The FD. The cops will just tell you to get out – usually by shouting at you.
– who holds pancake breakfasts in the summer for their fundraiser? The FD. When you show up at a FD fundraiser, it’s not just “throw money in the boot.” The FD pulls out all the BRT’s for the kids to clamber over/in/around and show them all the neat-o tools in the trucks.
Juliesa that is so true. In my city they used to have a cops vs firemen boxing tourny and guess what, in most weight divisions the firemen won. Don’t ask me why but they usually did. Especially the heavyweights…
Little boys also think dinosaurs and dirt bikes are cool. Put fezs on the cops and have them ride around on go-karts in the parade while handing out dinosaur stickers and the little boys will think it’s the best thing in the universe.
The MRAP isnt for the little boys though. It’s for the angry teenagers and young adults looking for a legal way to punish everyone who ever picked on them and every girl who ever rejected them.
That sounds exactly like the gun grabbers penis talk.
See above and tell me which characterizaion fits you best.
@tdiinva, spot on.
I don’t like police militarization any more than Robert et al. Police militarization is about an attitude, not equipment. If the Watertown PD went out and bought a used Brinks truck instead of getting a free MRAP would they be any less militarized?
The Brinks truck would be maintainable and appropriate for the streets and highways of a civilized nation (safe to operators and the motoring public).
But militarized SWAT would still be riding in them. It’s the militarized part that bothers me not what vehicle they ride in.
They ought to issue these local police Belly-Wraps.
So when will the “community” tanks roll into town?
about the same time the “community” attack helicopters and drones do a fly over…
Oh, like in Montana not too long ago. Or Illinois. Or…
MRAPS also save bullets. They can run over more dogs per mile, thus saving ammunition. A win win situation for the depts.
I vote they should have one at every walmart, target , costco, Starbucks and definitely Duncan donuts. You know, mobile command death star style. It’s for the kids safety of course.
Or maybe we should have them as schoolbuses. The Mrap shortbus
How about the ultimate tactical bookmobile? They would not have any problem collecting overdue fees.
His name is almost Mjolnir; the hammer of Thor, also the Spartan II armor (sorry, too much Bungie lately!).
So yeah, I’m not sure it’s possible to be farther away from community policing than driving around in a tank with Thor’s hammer.
Do they have the same vehicle in North Korea?
They can’t afford them. They drive pickup trucks with political prisoners tied to them.
Somehow I don’t think this guy is related to Thor or his enchanted hammer.LOL 🙂
“It’s a great opportunity for the public to learn about the police and what we do.”
You see children, the MRAP has barn doors to allow for entry when carrying up to 70lbs of tactical beer-belly.
Now, come this way and I’ll show you the portable gravy dispenser.
I posted this yesterday but here is our SWAT vehicle.
http://gallivance.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/swat.jpg
I wonder when they will upgrade.
I don’t think you’re doing it right. You won’t get an upgrade until you’ve doubled your potatoes and gravy donuts for at least a year. Team needs another 500 lbs before you qualify.
They need big rigs like this to move the fat ass’s around.
‘It’s definitely a big icebreaker with the kids.’
So are firetrucks.
Yes but firetrucks are a lot more expensive to purchase (not sure how much more or less to maintain).
and useful…
Depends how much use they see, and in what circumstances.
Lots of trucks are given lots of TLC and see little use.
Worst possible case for a fire truck here in Wyoming is being pulled out of the barn to fight fire at -20F. Water starts freezing up and breaking stuff real fast.
See Timmy, this is the truck we’re gonna ride up to your house in the middle of the night to shoot your dog in.
So what are the people who believe that a private citizen doesn’t need guns designed for the battlefield saying about police forces (serve and protect!) acquiring military Armored Combat Vehicles?
One of my favorite signs that I see at political rallies reads,
If police need “weapons of war”
against criminals, so do I!
Big deal. If you read the article the chief gives a lot of scenarios where it could be used and the ‘icebreaker’ one is not a big one (though you can bet kids like trucks). The reality is that many of the uses of these MRAPs could be better served by different vehicles… but since the government is giving them away for free, why NOT take them?
I kinda doubt his assertion that they will cost less than a snow plow truck to maintain, though…
You got that right.
As I recall, those tires are approx $1600ea and blowout of a super single while driving is not pretty. Fire Industry standard is that tires are to be replaced every 7 years regardless of tread depth/mileage (they rubber/hydrocarbon and degrade just sitting and MUCH worse if sitting outside).
Will be replacing the 6TL batteries every 18months call it $600 each time.
Won’t burn much fuel on calls (or perhaps will be using their new toy hammer on every nail they can find) but needs to be started and road test weekly. If don’t they will be buying more batteries and will be replacing seals and bearings etc (see also fire trucks).
MRAP have a custom HVAC system (can roll the windows down). This is likely to be the biggest/most expensive problem area for the cops.
search on “The MRAP Boondoggle”
In the last few years, the government spent $45 billion on MRAPs. That is libtard dem politicians.
I think that would replace every fire truck in the US.
Why not take them?
a) they take up a lot of room that could be used for actual usable vehicles for the PD.
b) they’re a black hole of money for maintenance and upkeep.
(b) is the real issue, IMO. These white elephants are going to turn out to be a lawn ornament soon enough, because they’re impossibly expensive to maintain. Fire trucks are chump change by comparison, because most fire trucks use pretty standard batteries, tires, transmissions, etc that you will find on most any straight commercial truck. Sure, the parts for commercial trucks are more expensive than for a cop cruiser (which is just a souped-up passenger car), but the MRAP? They’re a supply nightmare all their own.
Why exactly does anyone “need” tactical, assault, high capacity black, babykiller trucks? I’m outraged! We need to stop this immediately! Those trucks are responsible for dealing out oppression! Those trucks make people mean! Do it for the children, they can’t be around these trucks!
Anyone who would own a truck like this is uneducated, crazy, oppressive, and unpredicatable. Why do these crazy truck nuts want these? I’m outraged I tell you!
Look at this baby…
It’s not black… therefore is not any of those things, don’t worry.
The reason we have a problem with police militarization is precisely because we know what the police do.
Seems to me that community policing is way more embodied by the cops that joined in with a neighborhood basketball game than the cops riding around in what amounts to a tank.
Look at the bright side: if things ever get really ugly, liberty minded people can acquire these armored vehicles at their local police department … versus having to make their own or drive several hundred miles to acquire one at some military installation.
That’s actually pretty good!
If your scenario ever develops that would not be a useful plan. Useless POS. Would a steam traction engine been useful to a Philippine resistance group in WWII?
The utility of the planning that I outlined depends on the situation. There are certainly some situations where an MRAP would be of little value and could actually be a liability. In other situations it could be very valuable.
The beauty of my outline is that we personally don’t have to acquire and maintain one in order for one to be ready for us … if it would prove to be useful. In other words we get all of the up side without any of the down side.
IF it runs. Otherwise it’s just an expensive bunker.
Carthago delenda est
So many people are paranoid about police militarization. All of these so called “tanks” you’re absolutely freaking out about are in fact light armored vehicles, which means they have the same armore rating that Loomis and Dunbar and Brinks trucks have. Damn it, but y’all are just as bad as liberals, judging a vegicle by its mere appearance rathee than actually doing a modicum of research. The entire lot of you should be ashamed of yourselves. The law enforcement community should be able to trust us and consider us allies who will cometo their aid as LAW-ABIDING citizens. Just three years ago when I spoke about with a local leo, he told me that’s exactly how he thought of those of us who have actually jumped through all the legal hoops just to excersise our constitutional rights. But now that we have all the paranoid schitzos such as the esteemed Mr. Farago- who actually has a platfform and therefore influence- spreading and cultivating this EXTREME right wing, anarchist crap, and so many others who are naive and gullible enough to swallow it up without a second though hook, line, and sinker, I’d hate to hear his opinion of us now. You’re absolutely dispicable. And guess what? Holy crap, this is really going to shock you lot, but cops actually want to go home to their families at the end of the day, too! *GASP!!*
That is not a “light armored vehicle.” It is heavily armored.
Your attitude plus an MRAP. And all of us probably paying to maintain both and not needing either. That’s the story here.
Once police stop blindly enforcing unconstitutional laws and abusing their stations dozens if not hundreds of times on a daily basis, I’ll trust them with an MRAP.
>But now that we have all the paranoid schitzos such as the esteemed Mr. Farago- who actually has a platfform and therefore influence- spreading and cultivating this EXTREME right wing, anarchist crap
ChuggingYourLiberalTears.jpg
call 1-800-328-7448.
It is not a lightly armored vehicle. It can take a 300 pound IED and survive. Now it does not have much offensive capability but the guys riding in them sure do.
http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/archive/2011/September/Pages/WhyTroopsLove,andSometimesHate,theMRAP.aspx
Compared to a Toyota pickup it’s a tank….
>> cops actually want to go home to their families at the end of the day, too!
They specifically signed up for a dangerous job, the whole point of which is to make the lives of their fellow citizens safer. So, when the choice is between the safety of the cop, and the safety of the rest of the community, the latter always wins. Always. So if they can’t go home at the end of the day without breaking down walls with MRAPs, shooting dogs, and frying babies with flashbangs, they should consider a different career.
I for one welcome our puppy-murdering, civil-rights-abusing, dream-destroying, donut-scarfing, ‘roid-raging, wanna-b-tacticool jackbooted overlords.
😉
Yeah, I’m not crazy about Jersey cops either.
For parades?
Oh, I see. They want to pretend that they’re brave soldiers, and they need military props to try to convince us too.
He should’ve said “It’s a great opportunity to say “We’re on to you, hippies!'”
Then he needs to borrow this from cartman… http://generim.ru/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/hippie-digger.jpg
Two issues:
1. Police Sgt Curt Molnar has probably never seen a gym or knows what phys Ed is. Thus the need for transportation.
2. Curt (we’re on a first name basis now) will never allow maintenance and repair costs to be broken out by line item as the good citizens of Watertown ( which has some financial issues coming up) will not be happy.
Curt “Hey Mr. Manufacturer, we got a busted defrupulator on the torsional right left upper bar sideways.”
Mr. Manufacturer: “Well hang on and I’ll look up the cost of that beauty. Give me the serial number as the Army was always changing specs……..yup, it’s a one of a kind. Send cash in the amount of $12,000 and we’ll make that sucker right up for you.”
El Mac: The Founding Fathers never trusted having a standing Army. Just before the War of 1812, all our military forces in the Army were less than 800. Up until WW I, we really didn’t have a standing Army. After WW I, McArthur and Patton fired on WW I vets who were (had the audacity) to demand a bonus the government promised them.
There were over 70,000 no knock police raids against people who hadn’t checked in with the probation officer, MANY wrong addresses, and stupid stuff like sending a flash bang grenade into a crib with a child in it (Ga) or the grandmother holding a shotgun to stop breaking (not to worry, SWAT killed her, she is no longer a menace.
The police are being militarized and have been for some time. I’m often amazed when SWAT shows up, they have to go in. Why not wait til the perp is outside walking down the street or going to the corner store for a soda pop? That’s not Rambo enough. Just because a person is holed up in a house with a gun doesn’t mean SWAT has to go in. Just shut off water, heat, electricity, and no food, the strong likelihood is they’ll come out quietly or possibly shooting. A sniper could easily take them out at 50 yards.
The police will kill you, look at those two women delivering newspapers in the morning in LA. (Different truck, different color truck, two people instead of one – so they open up with over 140 rounds?) RF is right to keep pounding away at this, because sooner or later if you have a tool you’re going to use it, and some innocent fool civilian, adult or child will be hurt or killed.
@Dermott, PRECISELY! Which is why I say, do not let RF distract you with crap. DEAL with the real issue, POLITICIANS, not trucks. THAT is where the fight should be.
It’s not politicians that started swat units. They (the politicians) however have supported the swat teams and the police ever since there creation. Some rough urban areas back in the 70s and 80s decided they needed a stronger task force to deal with tough areas. That to me is logical. The problem is now that the police departments in every little town and dale in this country have decided they need a swat team. These trucks are just a symptom of the problem not the problem itself which actually shows the police (and the governments) mistrust of the people.
@Joseph Quixote, police commissioners and chiefs work for a mayor, an elected politician. Sheriffs are elected by people/voters. Ultimately they all work for voters. If voters don’t dig it, remove the politicians. That is where the crux of the problem resides.
El Mac,
You make it sound so simple, but the reality is that once these swat teams are in place there is a whole lot of money in line that does not want to be disturbed. Do you think that the police are just going to roll over for the politicians? They have power in unions and with many of the sheeple public. It doesn’t work that way in most towns anymore and you know it. Actively criticizing the police and their tactics is A-OK with me, and obviously with most of the people here on TTAG. Your the one that needs to explain why you are defending these military vehicles being used in civil police departments.
@JQ, “Do you think that the police are just going to roll over for the politicians?”
Yes I do.
You obviously don’t live in a big city. The police unions very often have an inordinate amount of power. We will have to agree to disagree on politicians and the police rolling over for them.
But… we have a standing army, and it’s an ARMY, not the police. Where’s the outrage there?
There’s always the anti-police fools who talk about fat cops, or donuts, or haircuts, like the police somehow have a monopoly on any of that. If you resort to any of these insults, your entire argument is invalid.
MilkAndWookies: The BLS put out a listing by occupation of deaths per 100k. Cops are not in the top 10 and I don’t know but I’d guess not in the top 15.
So those with a higher death rate : loggers, construction workers, roofers, etc also want to go home, but I’ve never seen any of them write the newspaper about their need to go home, they don’t have guaranteed jobs, even if they screw up.
The problem is every little police dept has to have everything. Politically unacceptable bit I’d guess most of the police in any county has an MRAPS or is yearning for one. Look at the news, at any scene they roll it out, even when it’s not necessary. Centralize SWAT teams across a county, save money, it will take time for them to saddle up, in which case the issue will have been remedied before SWAT gets to the scene.
This entire discussion is pointless. The only thing that matters is: We’re broke!
The organization which purchased this $770K vehicle, and then gave it away, is the brokest organization on the face of the earth. For our society to debate the merits of this thing is like my wife and I debating whether we should vacation in Tahiti or Provence when we haven’t made our mortgage payment in six months and we’ve both lost our jobs.
When Joe Copper takes this thing to school he should say to the kids: “This is what you’ll be working to pay for if you ever get a job some day.”
Here’s another couple of tidbits you’ll love:
DoD hasn’t been able to balance a budget. Ever.
DoD hasn’t been able to account for all of their equipment. Ever.
The answer? GIVE STUFF AWAY!
I think most folks missed the point. What is it that they do (with an MRAP) exactly. They do show and tell and show off their MRAP. It’s a scary thought, thousands of police departments with these things rolling around crushing cars and what not but in reality (I hope), most will just sit around rusting, leaking oil and the tires going flat from dry rot.
In front of the Legion Hall.
I can see a lot of people learning how to make IEDs pretty soon.
A couple of thing:
1. The EPA cut off the supply of MRAPs to local and state police. Methinks its because some of these Sheriffs and Governors are actually conservatives, and would use their MRAPs to “defend the Constitution” (their local authorities) if need be.
2. They are continuing to supply MRAPs to Federal police and “militia”, including the Army National Guard. A couple weekends ago I spotted three semi-trailer “MRAP Virtual Vehicle Trainers” at Arnold AFB in Tennessee with “National Guard – Serve Your Community” unironically blazoned on the side.
So I do wonder how long it will be until some jackboots serve us that heaping helping of an MRAP kick-to-the-teeth.
All of you Pro-Police-Militarization commentors are sure going to look like fools when they use these MRAPs to supress liberty. It will happen – it’s just a matter of time. Just look at the fuckfest after the Boston bombing.
MRAPs to police are no big deal. At worst, it just gives them a cool vehicle to drive around and feel bad-ass in. At best, it gives them a decent armored vehicle to use when a real need arises for it. It is not a vehicle that can be misused to abuse the public. Now if they start giving away free Abrams tanks, that is different.
@Kyle, truth. Spot on.
Please explain why most little towns and cities need MRAPS?
@JQ, ah. Well now, thats a question that I don’t have an answer to since I don’t work for a city that has one. How am I supposed to know? One of the reasons is possibly a downed officer recovery or downed citizens recovery from an active homicidal individual. But you would have to ask them for their exact reasons.
Now, why do you need an AR15?
What I have has nothing to do with it. The topic is about the proliferation of military vehicles across the land in civil police departments.
@JQ, the idea of a police department having an MRAP (scary looking truck) is about as scary to me as you having an AR15. In other words, it doesn’t bother me one bit.
Comments are closed.