“If only the Orlando gunman had attacked his victims only with the knives and not had access to a more deadly option. In all likelihood, the death toll would have been much lower, perhaps even zero. The headline, one that probably wouldn’t have gone national, might then have read, “Knife wielding man disarmed by employees.” It is, of course, difficult to kill multiple victims with a knife, unless they are asleep or otherwise incapacitated.” – James Alan Fox in Imagine if London terrorists had guns and Orlando shooter had only knives [via usatoday.com]

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67 COMMENTS

  1. Does this guy even listen to the news?

    I’m not talking about doing actual research. I mean just turning on the radio or the TV, or going to news.google.com, once in a while.

    And while we’re at it playing that what-if game, what if the Pulse murderer had used a truck and gasoline? It could have been worse. Maybe even everyone killed.

    • Exactly. I briefly debated this with some goofball at Mother Jones after Orlando, and tried to explain that if this guy was hell-bent on killing as many people as possible, why would he show up with cutlery in the absence of a rifle? If, hypothetically, he couldn’t get his hands on a gun, then that’s just an impediment in the plan, not a barrier.

      I’d argue that in the absence of a gun, he would have chosen something more lethal, not less.

      • These sorts of people are either liars or delusional. That said, it makes me want to post links under their articles to the various recipes for simple explosives and propellants, and to the manuals that teach one how to wrest the best casualty potential out of them.

        It’s a terrible, terrible idea, and not one I would pursue. However, given area layouts, traffic patterns and all of actual attacks, I’m half tempted to post up hypothetical, firearm free attacks that could have been staged in the same time and place using IEDS, and insist someone sort out what the death toll would have been. Of course doing this would be putting on a clinic for nuts and crazies, and I’m not going to do it, but it would be interesting to see what the counter argument would be.

        All that said though…trucks! We gotta ban trucks now too. None so blind as them that will not see and all that.

        • Guns, trucks- there are an infinite number of ways a killer can kill. The anti-gun community so conveniently, almost eagerly, overlooks this fact. Efforts to rid this country of guns would inevitably end up resembling the war on drugs, and we all know how well that’s going.

        • Large number of ways to kill, one great method to interdict, and that’s guns in the hands of everyone.

          If we invite them all to a “draw muhachmed” contest we can clear this sh_t up in a weekend.

      • No guns were used on 9/11. No guns were used at the Murrah Federal Building either. No guns were used in Nice. How many people were killed in Kabul last week with a truck bomb? (150 is the latest count.) I have no idea how many people have been killed in Baghdad by car bombings and the like, but it must be in the thousands; it was over a hundred in last weeks attack. Finally, if you look at terrorist attacks using firearms, the highest toll is where there is no armed resistance, such as Orlando Pulse Club, San Bernardino or Sandy Hook, lowest where there is a rapid armed response, such as the attack in Tehran where 5 attackers with automatic weapons and suicide vests only managed to kill 12 people

  2. I read by people not interested in gun ownership that the rate of murder in certain centuries in certain places was astronomical, even by Chicago’s or Brazil’s (where guns are banned) standards, before the invention of firearms. Guns were banned in Paris and yet a fairly sloppy group of jihadi’s murdered 150 with guns. There are very many knife attacks in Asia where anywhere from 0-30 people have been killed at a time.

    Regardless, by the rights to life, liberty, property, and self defense, the state has no say in peaceful ownership or carrying of weapons, per se. Besides, who’d be crazy enough to allow one group of people to have an utter monopoly on the legitimate ownership of weapons? By that logic, it was good that Chairman Mao had weapons even though he killed 80 million of his countrymen because he worked for the armed group.

  4. And how many people just got stabbed to death in London? Or the numerous knife attacks in China? This guy is over estimating the ability of the sheep fighting back.

    • While they are banned in the UK, guns are readily available to criminals throughout Europe and are smuggled into the UK. In the same way that the IRA obtained firearms and explosives by boats in hidden coves, the same is true of England today and they are used quite regularly in armed robberies of jewelry stores, corner markets, etc. Even Australia acknowledges that an “estimated” 256,000 firearms were not turned in when the ban went into effect. Civil disobedience is rampant everywhere… including the USA. Guns. You can’t put the genie back in the bottle. Tiny shops in the mountains of Afghanistan are cranking out hand made AKs, and ammo, as well as other weapons. The terrorists at the Ariana Grande concert used explosives. Timothy McVeigh used fertilizer. The Aum Shinrikyo religious cult used sarin gas in the Tokyo train station.

      James Allen Fox is an idiot who, apparently, believes he is smarter than everyone else. His question and premise are moot since there are so many other means which could have caused far more fatalities. Accidental fires at night clubs in NYC and other cities prove this is true. I believe the Bath School bombing of 1927 is still the worse event on record with 44 people killed, 38 of them students. All because the perp had lost his position on the school board, and his farm was in foreclosure. He also killed his wife beforehand, and he set up booby traps designed to catch emergency responders in his killing spree.

    • And no one is asking the question, how are the cops or anyone else going to hear these brutal silencex knife attacks?

      I mean these killers can spread nearly infinite death with complete impunity because no one can hear the knives or machetes!

  5. You can’t count London (and Columbus, Ohio) because the perpetrator was an islamikaze and according to “the narrative”, the victims had it coming.

  6. Imagine if the attackers had not attacked that day….
    Gosh, I feel so much better now.

  7. If only the Orlando gunman had attacked his victims only with the knives and not had access to a more deadly option.

    If only I had bought low and sold high on every stock market cycle, I would be sitting on a mountain of cash.

    Regardless, the Orlando nightclub scumbag could have killed just as many people, just as easily, with a homemade sword. Remember, the police allegedly did not rush the nightclub because they thought the attacker had a bomb. With three hours available, anyone of reasonable health/fitness could easily whack dozens of people with a sword.

    • There is that, then there is actually just, you know, using a bomb. Bombs are like guns, in that most people misunderstand them, overestimate their complexity, and their inadvertent danger. Like guns, they think ‘ I don’t know how to build a bomb, therefore others don’t either, and it’s hard to do’. Like guns, bombs are fairly simple, not all that dangerous to the informed and careful user, and quite capable in the right hands. Also, a bomber stands a good chance of escaping to do it again, and when a bomber goes big, the body counts are…well… depends on the bomb and the target, but use your imagination. We are lucky these nuts arent studying the problem, investing whatever they have in material, and trying to out bomb each other. If they ever start using large bombs, and practicing anything like good target selection, we are in very deep trouble.

  9. If only the Orlando gunman had attacked his victims only with the knives and not had access to a more deadly option. In all likelihood, the death toll would have been much lower, perhaps even zero.

    If only there were some armed people inside that bar who made even the smallest inkling of preparation for their safety against crazy Islamic extremists (like being armed or staffing the place with armed security) the death toll would have likely been much lower, perhaps even zero.

    • Whatever the ultimate toll, it most definitely would not have taken 3 hours, probably not 3 minutes.

    • I was going to say the same thing as well. This would have been the way to maximize casualties, between the fire, the smoke, and the trampling. The worst case would have been if he had found some way to shut off the water, and therefore the sprinklers, it’s nearly certain everyone would have died.

  11. “If only the Orlando gunman’s victims had been freely able to exercise their natural, civil and Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear Arms and not been defenseless. In all likelihood, the death toll would have been much lower, perhaps even just one (the gunman). The headline, one that probably wouldn’t have gone national, might have read, ‘Would-be mass killer neutralized by employees and Club patrons’ It is, of course, difficult to kill multiple victims if they are armed and capable of defending themselves.” FIFY douche-bag. Imagine if London and Orlando terrorists’ victims were able to properly defend themselves

    • It definitely wouldn’t have gone national, MSM absolutely will not perpetuate the “myth” of a good guy with a gun stopping a bad guy.

      They love their fake news but not when it disagrees with their political agenda.

  12. I get really frustrated with articles like this. Let’s skip how he overlooks the value of firearms in self-defense against large numbers or superior strength, as other posters have covered that.

    In a loud club with lots of lights, it might be hard to recognize a knifing was ongoing. He could have killed quite a number of people before anyone noticed. The worst mass murder in the Canadian city of Calgary was conducted at a party, with the attacker using a kitchen knife. He killed 5 and managed to escape on foot. But I suppose that’s okay, because it’s only five lives. But he did get away and wasn’t subdued at the scene.

    Or the attacker could have just done like the Happyland arson, and burned everyone to death using gasoline and matches. 87 people were burned to death in the Happy Land fire. But maybe that’s okay, because it’s just fire, and not an excuse to take away rights from the people the author of the article truly hates.

    Finally, this sentence: ” it is fortunate that the perpetrators used knives and that the truck employed as a battering ram wasn’t filled with an arsenal of guns and ammo.”

    Tell that to the families of the 86 killed in the Nice truck attack, or the 434 who were injured.

    It’s even more fortunate that the truck wasn’t filled with a bomb or an incendiary device.

    I hate doing this little dance where you know the author hates you for owning guns, but we all have to pretend that his argument is what he really means, and nothing more. Even if you score a knock-out blow and force him to concede today, tomorrow he’ll be back with the exact same debunked “facts”, the exact same half-truths, and the exact same positions.

  13. Imagine if opinion columnists had to have at least a working knowledge of what they were writing about.

    • Like trying to imagine how this guy would have needed to resort to knives when he was working as an armed security guard?

      Or imagine how different things would have been if he had attacked with “only” a knife and even 10% of the patrons of the Pulse were also carrying knives for self defense?

  14. Wasn’t the muslim POS’s first idea to burn the place down.

    Who dug up this idiot?

    “False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils, except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm those only who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.” – Cesare Beccaria (1738–1794) quoted in The Right to Arms and the American Philosophy of Freedom (via heritage.org)

  15. “Dreamer” has a different connotation today, i.e., those illegal immigrant youth dreaming of overcoming the system and staying here to live happily ever after on government support. Mr. Fox and his ilk are just vain fantacizers and probably should be making sci fi movies or illustrating comic books.

    I’m a dreamer, too – I wish rainwater was beer and we all had wings.

  17. Thousands of times more gays are murdered by AIDS Infected Tallywackers (Negligent Semen Discharge) than by firearms. We need more Tallywacker Control.

    • Yep…and no balls on any of the boys in Orlando-including the cops who waited THREE hours?

  18. Well, sure.

    And if we only had an immigration policy that would keep members of a dangerous cult obsessed with killing anyone who disagrees with them out of our country, it wouldn’t really matter to us what kinds of weapons these cult members got a hold of.

  19. Imagine if he London terrorists hadn’t had knives or cars, or bombs, or or or, access to the internet, or had parents that hugged them more!

    if we’re going to follow that yellow brick road to the Oz, then we may as well just follow it all the way to the end.

    Imagine if the people only had those things the government approved of, and they could arrest and or simply shoot them if they deviated onto items from the proscribed lists.

    • Ayup; imagine if the targets of the attack had each had a unicorn to ride off to safety away from the murderers.

  20. I have to wonder where/how the USA Today finds people this stupid to write for them.

    This dude is utterly and completely detached from reality, not to mention any understanding of history.

  21. I gotta wonder what his definition is for “what is the most deadliest option (from) of death?”
    I’m sure for most sane people that would just be death itself irregardless of form.

    • You may be dead in the end, but there are significant differences in how painful it is to get from here to there.

      Personally, I’d much rather a clean shot to the brain stem, than burning to death, if I had to choose between the two.

      • Understood & agreed, but that’s my point: his definition seems to indicate that guns deaths are by far the worst ways to die. Personally, I’m hoping to be well into the 100’s, go to sleep with great dreams and not wake up the next morning. Of course after after a night still outperforming the younger wife and all her friends in the “extracurricular activities”…

  22. If the Nice Islamo-terrorist only had a Prius instead of a truck . . . .

    Y’know, if brains were gunpowder, James Alan Fox couldn’t blow his nose.

  24. The families of the 15 young people murdered by fire in Childers Australia must be so glad they were not shot.

    My former next door neighbor was the first fireman into the building. I’d been transferred just before it happened.

    What an @@ idiot

  25. Imagine if countless people across this fine country–people who are old, infirm, handicapped–didn’t have firearms to use for protection when younger, stronger, and violent people attacked them. Just imagine.

    Probably hard for some Manhattanite in a 1M condo to do, even if he tries.

  26. First problem, the PC Demon-crats and Rhinos have made our country into a bunch of pussies, the Left wing Education system has so corrupted the American values and morals that we embrace changing History, appeasement (kissing the immigrant ass) sorta like Shuck and Jive did with Iran plus the Illuminati are conditioning us too not think for our selves for the subjugation of freeborn everything, with the help of the bureaucrats from our own Government! people like {Lois Learner) {Holder} {Lynch} (Neil Kornze) (Scott Pruitt) (Mia Karvonides) basically people who were fanatics for the destruction of America!
    Same with this clown

  27. Y’all might want to at least read the article, ’cause Mr.Fox refers to recent workplace shooting, no Pulse massacre. Not like it makes the whole narrative sensible or logic sound.

    I find it especially amusing that Mr.Fox points out John Neumann’s background while dishing out his “if only he went knife-(only)!!1”. The answer is – it will not be pretty at all. Victims were in for surprise attack with bladed weapon, with blood and guts to see, likely to have brief shocking effect on (not yet) defending party. And since most knives does not emit 150+dB bark, there might be no warning to other prospective victims (yes! My chef’s knife is ultimate silenced weapon!).

    Of course, Mr.Fox, Neumann was Army veteran. Not exactly young, but, judging from what photos circulate, fit for 45y old. Would you like to take him on in a knife fight, man’o’mano? Doubt so.

  29. “In all likelihood the death toll would have been much lower.”

    I fail to understand this mentality that implies there’s an acceptable death toll, and saw it all over the place after the London truck/knife attack. The “it could have been so much worse” argument…

    What are we? A herd of wildebeests? A school of minnows?

    Closed circuit to Mr. Fox: respectfully, sir, you don’t appear to be the type of man who knows a damned thing about how hard it is or isn’t to kill a large amount of people with a knife and, furthermore, failed at performing any basic research on the subject (like a good journalist should) prior to making that declarative statement of supposed fact. That said, Mr. Fox, I do know what headline we wouldn’t have seen had the situation been different, “Knife Wielding Lunatic Shot Dead By Armed Employees” because hacks-called-journalists like you wouldn’t allow that sort of information to be disseminated.

  31. “It is, of course, difficult to kill multiple victims with a knife, unless they are asleep or otherwise incapacitated.”

    That is, of course, true, if those victims are armed with guns. Otherwise, not so much.

  33. While we are playing make believe, I wish there were no stupid people, so I could wake up and never read a quote like this ever again.

    One can dream.

  34. “…The headline, one that probably wouldn’t have gone national, might then have read, “Knife wielding man disarmed by employees.””

    So, if the victims were equipped like the thug, or somewhere close, they might have done something. Like beat Thuggy McProjection-Face senseless.

    So, why not arm the people not beating each other senseless with the fists they already have, so maybe they have parity when some whack-job uncomfortable with his own fabulousness shows up strapped. (He wishes.)

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