“Let us be clear, Michigan Open Carry Inc. in no way supports the actions of these individuals. It is our belief that their actions were reckless, and primarily designed to draw attention and a response.” – Tom Lambert in Gun advocates arrested carrying rifle into Dearborn police [via freep.com]
Probably lucky to be breathing
Police should have open fire the split second there was non compliance.
Our SA rights are being chipped away because of flaming idiots like this. A slow death by a thousand self-inflicted cuts.
It’s too bad that so many of the folks who are crazy about guns just happen to be crazy.
BUT Michigan open carry should not disavow them since many people open carry primarily to make a statement and attract attention. Even attract a police response. But dudes, let the police come to you. Duh.
That’s moronic. The “split second”…..yeah, because that’s what we need are more itchy trigger finger cops blasting people. You start setting that standard and you’ll find a whole lot of dead bodies littering the streets as every jackwagon with a big mouth gets drilled by a cop with a license to kill.
The facts of this encounter prove that there is another way to resolve the situation. The escalation of force, not the fast forwarding to opening fire, was the smart move here. Other options can be pursued before having half a dozen cops release a hail of gunfire at the suspects, most of which rounds are bound to miss, fly through the window and hit whatever random people happen to be walking or driving by.
Congrats to the Dearborn PD for taking these reckless fools into custody professionally and safely. You, on the other hand, shouldn’t be allowed to carry a firearm. Your judgement is deficient.
While I don’t agree with the OP, there is more to the story. The guys were not just ‘open carrying’:
“James Baker had body armor on and a semi-automatic pistol strapped to his hip as he slung a short-barreled rifle over his chest and pulled a black ski mask over his head.”
Body armor, ski mask…seriously… This is not open carry, this was provocateur. This fellow is very lucky he is not cooling in the morgue right now.
Everyone should be allowed to carry a firearm. It’s literally no business of government to decide who is “allowed” and who is not. And, noone’s judgment of others’ judment should carry any sway at all.
Everyone should be allowed to carry a firearm, correct. Everyone should NOT be allowed to look and act like a terrorist. Allowing everyone to own and/or carry firearms does not equal allowing everyone to act irresponsibly.
Contempt of cop is not a crime.
That was contempt of good sense. That same moron walking up to my house in the same manner is likely to be leaving in a body bag.
Not going to argue that, but I still fail to see where a crime took place.
Reckless endangerment. Being armed and acting in a way to encourage someone to fire on you. If there is not a law, this is a great way to get one added.
But “Failure to do right” is.
According to CNN: “He(‘s) been charged with breach of peace, failure to obey police officer’s direction or order, and resisting an officer’s demands. All of the charges are misdemeanors.”
Their charges are similar but not identical. Baker was also charged with Concealing Identity While In the Commission of a Crime. I have not seen any news story mention this.
binder,
“Reckless endangerment. Being armed and acting in a way to encourage someone to fire on you. If there is not a law, this is a great way to get one added.”
Is that the vaguest crime ever? And “encourage someone to fire on you”? Isn’t that blaming the [potential] victim?
I’m glad that these cops didn’t shoot these guys. Sometimes protests need to get people’s attention. Done. Still, if these guys had bad intentions, wouldn’t they start shooting when they came in? Just sayin’
Not smart to wear a mask while in a vest and carrying a rifle.That’s not very personable. People are not happy when they see police dressed up like that. So you can imagine how alarmed police are going to be when you walk into their department looking like an ISIS member or a Black Lives Matter extremist.
I would have pulled out my gun if I was in that situation because I have no idea what those men intend on doing and I would be at a disadvantage (or dead) if I waited to find out. It’s not that they are carrying guns and have a vest on, it’s more the shemagh and balaclava.
I understand it’s cold outside. However, you can’t expect to not elicit panic while outside wearing body armor, carrying an AK at the ready and wearing a balaclava or shemagh. If I remember correctly, that is enough to constitute probable cause and get you arrested.
Wearing body armor is a good idea regardless if you are carrying or not, but it’s supposed to be low-vis otherwise it kind of defeats the purpose. I don’t care what gun you carry openly, that’s your decision. At least take the mask off and try to look the least threatening as possible. You are not making a fake YouTube prank video, this is real life. Even ISIS fighters wear GoPros when they are committing attacks, so that GoPro isn’t going to change anything.
Gone Mainstream media….
http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/07/us/dearborn-open-carry-arrest/index.html
I can feel my grip on the 2A slipping.
So to protest a traffic stop, one tools up…like a terrorist, in Dearborn, with a high Muslim population, to chat with the local PD. Young people have trouble connecting the dots. Lucky to be alive.
Look at what they were actually charged with. It’s basically contempt of cop.
So at what point do you elevate from bearing arms to threatening with said arms. Free speech is protected, threats of violence, not so much.
Watch the video. Nothing they said or did constituted a threat. If it did they would have been charged with far more than contempt of cop.
Low ready with hand on the rifle, plus the masked appearance, and plate carriers would look like a threat to me if they walked into the lobby of my bank, much less the police department…
Yeah… They didn’t walk into a bank. That would have been illegal. What they did was perfectly legal. Stupid, but legal.
Wait, why would it be illegal in the bank, then?
Because some animals are more equal than others.
pwrserge’s opinion is that unless you tell someone what you are going to do, no action you take should be construed as as a threat.
Clearly, the DA agrees with me as they were not charged with anything threat related.
A lit of people mistakenly believe that all banks are automatically gun free zones, by law, but that isn’t true.
A Federal Reserve bank probably is, since that’s a quasi-federal building. A bank ir credit union on a military base or other federal facility is, but that’s because of the facility where it’s located, not because of itself. Individual banks may post a lawful and legally binding no-guns sign, as any other merchant may do, but that’s their individual decision and not mandated by law.
Open carry at a highly sensitive location like a bank, especially one with a history of armed robberies, probably isn’t a good idea, just for your own sake. However, there’s nothing special about banks that automatically makes it illegal everywhere.
Pushing the laws to the limit, have a tendency to get them changed, and in this case, not in a good way. The seed of California’s gun laws came from the Black Panthers pulling this same crap. A threat with arms is a threat, regardless of the laws on the books. And people are not so stupid as they cannot recognize a threat. However, people will to reacted in stupid ways when they are threatened
I have open carried into my bank when making deposits of large sums of money. I am not the only one and no one bats an eye.
John: The key words are “making a deposit of large sums of money.” The bank understands your need for self protection.
In Michigan banks are not on either of the pistol free zones lists.
Banks are Gun free zones MCL 750.234d.
To possess any firearm in a bank, you need a license to carry a concealed weapon from “this state or another”.
Ok, I stand corrected. They are on the non permit open carry list. They are not gun free zones if you have a CPL.
Only one of these two idiots could properly be described as “young”, and even that person has been a legal adult for 6 years. The other idiot is 40, and to call him “young” is in no way accurate. Please stop banging on about how ‘all young people are idiots’, it is the victim mentality of ‘oh us adults are the last great generation and we have to tolerate so much from the younger generation’.
While what they did was stupid, the alleged “laws” that they broke basically amount to contempt of cop. That’s bullshit. If I get the cops called on me when I’m hauling my tactical gear into my jeep, my response would be more or less the same. Go fuck yourself.
So if someone walks into your place of business tooled up, armored and wearing a mask it’s all in good fun, right?
So if someone pulls you over and demands to search your vehicle because guns, that’s all cool then? There was stupidity on both sides. Funny how only the kids are facing charges.
Had they handled the sutuation better, they probably would have cost the taxpayers a lot of money with a lawsuit. Instead, they threw out sound tactics to satisfy their emotions. No, I do not comply with unlawful commands, however verbal jujitsu goes a long way to defuse situations. While irritatong at times, the thin veneer of civilization is preferable to anarchy.
Like I said, stupid, but not illegal. The “crimes” they were charged with basically amount to contempt of cop, not a crime in a free country.
Pssst……the offenders are full grown men, age 24 and 40. What “kids” are you referring to? Did you even read the primary source article before commenting?
Ok, one kid and one dumbass.
If they had just walked in with a rifle slung over their back, or even a rifle AND a plate carrier, then I would be more sympathetic. They came into a police station with rifles at low ready, while wearing plate carriers AND FACE MASKS, not to mention go pros on their shoulders. I would have had absolutely zero problem if these guys had been shot on sight. This was borderline darwin award winning material.
Exactly. I’m surprised they’re alive. No mask, rifle on their back, and the police would find it difficult to justify a shooting. Masks and rifles at the ready, there should’ve been a gun battle.
It’s 37 degreee F right now in Dearborn, with a windchill that brings it down to 33. What’s so unusual about a face covering?
Michigan is a major hunting state, too. At any given time, something’s in season. Fir example, crow season just started on Feb. 1st and runs through the end of March. Numerous types of game have year-round seasons: opossum, porcupine, weasel, both red and ground squirrel, woodchuck, feral swine, feral pigeons, starling, sparrows, and skunk.
Suppose these men drive an open top jeep and have been hunting. They come in to report a crime, bringing their rifles with them so as not to leave them irresponsibly unattended in their vehicle? Should the police just open fire on sight?
Had they, you all would have crucified them in the comments, and you damn well know it. So don’t even begin to lie.
Overall, these guys were foolish and put themselves in unnecessary danger. That’s not a crime, but they then failed to follow lawful orders. They deseve their tickets, but not to have been automatically shot when they stepped through the door.
Been a while, but isn’t feral swine ALWAYS in season?
Last time I picked up a DNR book o remember the pig section reading something like:
Have a small game permit? Shoot a pig.
Have a deer tag? Shoot a pig.
Have a fishing license? Shoot a pig.
Have a pulse? Shoot a pig.
If you live in Michigan, you don’t don a ski mask (or balaclava) unless it’s below -15F. These people aren’t like those soft Texans.
Regardless of the weather, if I was wearing anything covering my face, it would come off BEFORE I walked into a bank, retail establishment, or cop shop. Even without a gun, walking into a police station and attempting conversation while masked would be weapons grade stupid.
-15F is an exaggeration and a pretty big one.
Even in da U.P. People will wear a mask well before it gets that cold if they’re going to be outside for any length of time.
Only one of them was wearing a “mask” (a balaclava, to be 100% accurate). Again, if they had committed an actual crime (other than contempt of cop), I wouldn’t be defending them. The initial harassment by the police without anything approaching probable cause was ridiculous.
Otherwise known as a ski mask…..
So the response should be to threaten the cops. What they were doing was t threat, plain and simple.
Legally, it was not. The charge sheet backs up my position.
Just because someone was not charged with a crime does not mean that person did not commit said crime. See Clinton, Hillary.
If you think that the DA would have passed up the chance to crucify them, you’re delusional.
They don’t have dirt on half the federal government to keep them out of jail.
No, but now the anti-gun legislators have ammo to put more laws on the books.
The anti-gun legislators are currently in the minority in *both* houses and are unable to even tee-up their shit anti-gun laws for the time being…
My comment would be police elsewhere.
Yea, poorly executed. Low-key open carry (simple handgun, OWB) is one thing. Tooling up to go to a police station after you’ve already told a cop to go **** themselves, is another. IMHO, donning the ski mask seems to be where he really upped the ante.
I am going with Swilson here on “poorly executed”.
I fully understand the open carrier’s anger and motivation to “push back” after cops illegally pulled them over. Last year a cop illegally pulled over my vehicle with my entire family which was extremely traumatic for one of our children (for reasons which I will not divulge in public). It was wrong and I want that cop (and his supporters) to understand that it is wrong and to stop doing it.
While it is desirable to induce a large fear factor in police who illegally detain victims — in the hope that those police officers abandon the practice — walking in wearing a mask and a rifle on a sling in front is an incredibly risky way to go about it.
How did they think the end-game was going to go on this?
It sounds like any thought immediately beyond “I’ll show him!” was absent…
No, they were very aware of what could happen. This is not the first time they’ve done this type of activism, it is a regular thing. It’s not the first time they have guns drawn on them or been arrested. There is a reason they wear plates.
Calling this idiocy “activism” is giving these morons way too much credit.
They see it as activism.
@Stinkeye
If the left wants to call Antifa “activists”, these guys definitely count. Unlike the “black blob” clowns the only people who were in any danger of being hurt was the guys who got mobbed by the cops.
Can somebody tell me what the hell an “AP-14” is? Every article I see about this incident keeps saying the police seized one…
It’s a full auto Associated Press – 14. Transmits the incident directly to the fake news wire and can use 500 characters instead of the puny 140.
It’s an AK platform pistol. James also had an arm brace on his.
If it’s an AK pistol, why does it say they seized an “AP-14” AND an AR-15 and an AK-47? Was he carrying two AKs?
I believe there were other firearms in the car which was searched and impounded. Vreeland didn’t take his in. Plus the media often gets stuff wrong.
I want everyone here to read and understand this. I open carry a handgun everyday. Every. Single. Day. I am not at all unfriendly or averse to open carry. If I don’t know you and you walk toward me with what looks like a loaded rifle in low ready, I am either going to draw my gun or prepare to draw my gun, because you are officially telegraphing that you are an imminent and credible threat to me. This goes for any time, any place, and anyone. There is exactly 1 non threatening way to open carry a rifle, and that is behind the back with a 2 point sling. Anything else is an immediate and credible threat and I will respond accordingly, so plan accordingly.
That’s the real issue, people need to recognize when you are no longer bearing arms but threatening with them.
Yeah… Because 1 point slings are totally not a thing. I very rarely carry a rifle slung across my back. If I’m carrying a rifle, it’s on a 1 point sling on my chest so I can actually USE it if I have to.
Then don’t walk around in public with it while wearing a ski mask and a plate carrier and we won’t be shooting at each other in the near future.
A ski mask is indicative of nothing if it’s cold outside. I shoot most of my late fall and winter competitions in a balaclava.
I know you’re being intentionally obtuse so I’m just going to say you’re smarter than this and leave it at that.
It’s been in the ’30s and high ’20s and snowing heavily here for the last several days, and I’ve seen exactly zero ski masks/balaclava/whatever-you-want-to-call-them while out and about.
Common sense should tell you that if you walk into someplace with a ski mask, plate carrier, and an AK in low ready where folks don’t generally act that way, every other person around you is going to perceive you as a threat. I don’t give a crap whether it’s legal or not. It’s not normal behavior engaged in by the general public, and the only time the general public (and law enforcement, for that matter) is usually exposed to this sort of thing, it’s during a mass shooting.
Just because you can do something, doesn’t mean you automatically should.
You got it. I OC frequently as well- 1911 in a passive-retention holster. A long gun at the low ready in public (out in the boonies, low ready doesn’t bother me in the slightest) is about the same as a drawn pistol on my sliding scale of threatening. Not a wise choice if one values remaining un-ventilated.
“There is exactly 1 non threatening way to open carry a HANDGUN, and that is CONCEALED. Anything else is an immediate and credible threat and I will respond accordingly, so plan accordingly.”
See? Your own argument can be turned against you. In fact, that’s an argument the antis do make in opposition to open carry. Depending on where you want to draw your own personal preference threat line, you can justify any infringement, and people do.
Maybe the rift isn’t so much between antis and gunners, as it is between people who just differ over how to infringe upon other people’s freedom? Infringement itself is a given.
Except you’re demonstrably wrong. But do go on, you’ve got that strawman on the ropes there.
Tell you what: Drive on over to Dallas, put on a ski mask, body armor, and carry a carbine at low ready into the Dallas PD HQ.
Then report back to us.
That was sarcasm. THIS is respectful truth: You, sir, are an idiot and I hope you have not reproduced.
Common Vhyrus, you’re smarter than that.
Low ready is discourteous but if someone has bad intentions and has the rifle at a low ready the only thing you’re likely to do by drawing is lose a gunfight. If they truly have bad intentions towards you you’re in trouble. If they don’t you may precipitate a gunfight which doesn’t favor you surviving.
There are multiple non-threatening ways to carry a rifle on a sling all of which have one thing in common, your hands are not on the rifle in a manner that makes immediate use easy. Strapped to the chest or slung down your side are both perfectly fine. It’s the hands on the rifle in a way that suggests you’re ready for an ambush that is discourteous.
It’s not a good idea to carry your rifle on your back because it’s much easier to attack you and remove your rifle from you. Think of it as carrying a pistol openly without a round chambered. This is one reason to carry a pistol over a rifle.
Hmm.
Well, I can start slinging lead at the point I (or any reasonable person would) believe I’m facing an imminent, credible threat of death or grave bodily harm. I reckon police can do the same.
And I think most juries would agree that someone walking into my workplace with a mask, ballistic vest and a rifle at low ready would constitute such a threat. Game on.
These idiots should thank the Dearborn Police for their magnificent restraint.
The proper charge for the “activists” is “menacing”, or “brandishing.”
Carrying a gun is no threat, which is the point – guns are not the problem, bad behavior is, whether its thugs, pharma reps, or “activists.”
The cops are also inappropriately wound up, which is also the point. “Get on the ground or I will shoot you?” That’s not protecting anyone’s safety, that’s compelling compliance. Once the tooled up silly people are talking, not blazing, and the cops have the drop.on them …
It seems our point making friends didn’t think through the point they want to make. Wear the plates, sling the rifles n skip the masks. When the cops go ape-poo over that, which it seems like they would, you have a way better video.
You could even, perhaps, connect it to the original stop. (I dodn’t see specifics on that.) Ya gotta set up the punch line yr going to deliver. “Well, if yr gonna stop people for simply carrying, that’s banning something legal that you don’t like through your enforcement policy. The word for that is harassment. Who makes the laws, anyway?”
Michigan has no “menacing” statute. We do have a brandishing law. “Brandish” means to point, wave about, or display in a threatening manner with the intent to induce fear in another person. MCL 750.222(c)
It would be hard to make that stick.
Does Michigan have any statute on mask-wearing in public?
Something tells me in the near future there will be laws on ‘protesting’ with a mask on as cities get tired of masked ‘protesters’ looting, burning, and general thuggery…
“Baker is charged with breaching the peace, failure to cooperate with police and masking his identity by obscuring his face when he walked into the station.”
Apparently they do. I think most states have them nowadays. Down South and in parts of the Midwest, it was typically an anti-Klan measure. The wording is kind of funny though…masking identity by obscuring his face. AKA wearing a mask. I wonder if you could be charged with that by growing a really long beard?
Masking one’s identity is not against the law in and of itself, only if done while breaking the law. Then it’s another charge.
Danny- yessir, an add-on charge.
Does wearing a burka in public count as a mask, or is that another special exemption we’re making for favored minorities?
Jonathan,
Interesting point. Perhaps if they were wearing the burhka to facilitate a crime…but probably not.
I think the ” display in a threatening manner with the intent to induce fear in another person” can probably stick. Especially with the video’s they are posting. We will see if the charges are added later.
The combination of the rifle at low ready and the mask would amount to assault with a deadly weapon in my book (“aggravated assault” in some states). These spoiled children deserve no mercy. Felony charge and prison time.
No felony charges. The current charges are all misdemeanors as follows:
Local: Breach of Peace
Local: Resisting (booking)
State: Concealing Identity While In the Commission of a Crime
Whether more will be added later remains to be seen.
…and they have a history of this.
They’re not kids, they are free to live with the consequences (so to speak) of their actions.
Perhaps the local magistrate will tire of them cluttering up their docket and give them a 6-month time out…
There should be no charges filed against these idiots. Why? Because if they are free to go, they are more likely to roll that dice one more time, and I bet sooner or later they end up crapping out.
Maybe a slight adjustment to the open carry law is needed or maybe another law. As far as I am concerned a weapon at ready with armor and a face mask shows(to me) attemped assault, just like if someone raised a baseball bat in a threatening manor near my (or families) body. I would hope that is enough to show intent. I understand these guys want to make an issue of this, but a headstone with “I’m with stupid” next to mine is not the way.
So… by your logic every time I kit up for my practical rifle competitions in the winter, I’m committing “attempted assault”…
Everything in context. Now you are being stupid, but I can be stupid too. Try shooing a gun at a range and then try it in a police station.
Had I been in that police station I would have shot them repeatedly, as would everyone I know. That was not open carrying. Not when you walk in armed wearing body armor and a mask and refusing commands to drop your weapon. That is a death wish and I would have accommodated them.
Wow. This one brings out the Emos.
Look, this wasn’t wise. It was flat out dumb. However, other than failure to comply I’m not seeing anything illegal. What makes the cop shop so special? Nothing that I’m aware of in MI law. Now, I haven’t lived there in awhile so that may have changed but these guys didn’t get hit with a slew of charges either.
The cops argument about people fleeing is bullshit. Hurting or causing feelz is not a crime. Further, when there was a bank robbery that went bad in Houghton the state police showed up acting exactly the same way. With their faces covered how were the good citizens to know who was a cop and who was a Bag in tac gear!?
Finally, I said this about OC Texas and got flamed for it: carrying a rifle at the low ready is discourteous and dumb. You’re not on patrol in Afghanistan. Oh, but now it’s stupid, as stupid as I was for saying that months back. Oh how the times have changed.
This was dumb. In and of itself it wasn’t illegal. Your 2A rights don’t go away just because you dress in a manner that freaks people out.
Here’s something to consider –
Suppose another citizen was in there and armed. Them being armed where they shouldn’t, by law. but concealed means concealed.
But there they are, picking up an accident report or whatever. In come the nitwits. The cops are screaming at them to put down the weapons. Suppose the citizen was in a position to take a clean shot and does so, killing activist-boy. The citizen could claim he was in legitimate fear, seeing how the cops were reacting.
Could that conceivably be considered a legitimate shoot, albeit he gets charged for carry in a prohibited location?
Well, if carry were prohibited in Michigan PDs, he would lose the protections in the law for the use of deadly force as that only works here if you aren’t committing a crime at the time. MCL 780.972 So carry in a prohibited place would probably be the least of his worries if the prosecutor decided to prosecute.
But it’s not, so the point is moot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc0_ttM8bak
Idiots looking to be martyrs. They intended to give the impression they were a threat. The officer’s reluctance to light them up was a dangerous mistake.
When people try to create the impression they’re an imminent threat it would be impolite not to believe them. If you roll into any place I am, tooled up like that; enjoy the failure drill demonstration.
We are lucky that the majority of people this stupid are leftists.
They walked into a police station with masks, guns and vests. They later walked out again ALIVE after posting bail.
Totalitarian state, my ass.
Ugh so many idiots. Like those kids in class that wouldn’t STFU and made the entire class have detention.
If you are going to be upset about a citizen being armed and masked, then you need to show the same outrage when government employees are armed and masked. There is no reason for a government employee to ever hide his identity or face. All government employee personnel files should be considered public record.
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