“We understand people get worried about bad press and run from it. We are running into it because we have compromised on gun rights for far too long.” – Come and Take it Texas co-founder Phoenix Horton in Texas Gun-Rights Protest Takes New Form [at wsj.com]
It ain’t gun rights. It’s civil rights. Speech, vote, yada, yada…..
Natural rights, human rights, God given rights, etc.
It’s all chicken, but the bone.
Fear of bad press effectively silences your message. Bad press and an overwhelming desire to remain politically correct makes you a doormat.
Bad press or bullets from two idiots in ski masks. Same tactic.
I don’t have to like what you are doing but I support your right to do it.
i want support anyone who is endangering my rights. These people are in this for self-gratification.
” These people are in this for self-gratification.”
You know this? You have some direct evidence to support this, or is this just your blind speculation because you don’t like what they are doing?
Link to a quote perhaps?
Have you been paying attention?
So, your answer is “no,” then to the question “Do you have anything to support your assertion that they are only in it for self gratification.”
Yes. I’ve been paying attention. I’ve seen a lot of whiners that project their own emotional feebleness onto the rest of us…often hiding behind weasel statements that sound profound but are illogical…every time someone somewhere in the world does something they don’t like.
To repeat: just because you THINK something is true, does not make it true.
Or…again…do you have any actual evidence to support the claim that these folks are only doing what they are doing for self gratification?
Hint: You not agreeing with them is not evidence.
JR as a man raised in NC for 25 years with family there still, your commentary does my brain and heart proud bud.
Im an AZ resident now, but Im glad to know theres still people like you keeping the faith back home.
And the Texas House voted yesterday to give the lawmakers panic buttons because the Open Carry people scared them off. Congrats guys. I said at the beginning that you guys would kill ANY chance of Constitutional or open carry in Texas. You just did. Hope you’re satisfied.
Mike,
Fact:
Texas politicians and courts killed open and constitutional carry in Texas over 100 years ago.
Fact:
Texas politicians, courts, and police who enforce blatantly unconstitutional firearm laws are your enemy.
Question:
What is so horrible about peaceably standing out in front of the legislature with signs and rifles on your shoulder?
Question:
What is so horrible about peaceably milling small pieces of aluminum out in front of the legislature?
Suggestion:
Direct your ire at your Texas politicians, courts, and police.
Suggestion:
Support and encourage EVERYONE who is working to restore our rights.
Suggestion:
Go out and actively oppose Texas politicians who gleefully infringe your rights … go out and campaign for Texas politicians who respect your rights.
Suggestion:
Identify friends, neighbors, co-workers, and family who have never shot a firearm before; take them out to a range and provide a safe and positive experience.
“Question:
What is so horrible about peaceably standing out in front of the legislature with signs and rifles on your shoulder?”
Answer: Reports indicate that is NOT what some open carry advocates have done. Forcing their way into the offices of representatives, accosting them belligerently in hallways and public areas. One report has an advocate threatening one representative.
Bottom line: Tactics used by open carry advocates are hurting the cause in Texas.
Link to the arrest/charges filed against the threatening protestors? Oh, were they not threatening enough for any action beyond Democart bellyaching?
uncommon_sense: I completely agree with all of your suggestions.
To respond to your Questions: “What is so horrible about peaceably standing out in front of the legislature with signs and rifles on your shoulder?” – Absolutely nothing, and if that’s all that happened, there would be little concern. But that’s not what happened. I don’t know how many, but at least one advocate entered into a private office, and according to capitol staff, was aggressive and belligerent. I don’t know how many times this actually happened, but there is now the impression among capitol staff that this happened a lot, and is how Open Carry advocates operate. That is, through fear and intimidation.
To be clear, the legislators and their staff are not worried about “bad press” for supporting Open Carry. In fact, they are more worried about bad press for not supporting it. The whole bill was a done deal. So they aren’t scared of bad press, they are now actually scared of these people. And if reports from staffers about the behavior of some of the protestors were true, I can understand why.
“What is so horrible about peaceably milling small pieces of aluminum out in front of the legislature?”. In and of itself, nothing. The problem was that it actually diluted the message. Was this about Open Carry, or about the self manufacture of firearms? Which bill did the advocates support, or oppose? Which topic was this protest about? Why are these people here? This act should have been a separate event, with a clear message. Instead, it muddied the waters. There is now a lot of conspiracy talk among the Open Carry advocates in the capitol staff (which, by the way, is the VAST majority of the staffers) that it was Anti’s that encouraged this ill timed stunt in order to confuse legislators and Open Carry advocates. Which it certainly did.
All in all, without violence, it would have been difficult to hurt our cause more than what happened. It was a horrible, childish failure. JWT
“But that’s not what happened. I don’t know how many, but at least one advocate entered into a private office, and according to capitol staff, was aggressive and belligerent.”
So, rumor and hearsay then?
” I don’t know how many times this actually happened,”
So, it could be zero.
” but there is now the impression among capitol staff that this happened a lot, “
Impressions are not data.
Honest question: Is there EVIDENCE that that OC advocate acted belligerent? Or is this just the word of a pencil-pusher?
Said pencil pusher could be telling the truth, but was there arrest? Is there a public record of a police report? Conviction?
(I recall seeing the story posted, but don’t recall these details).
I have to admit…I’m skeptical that this was as serious as it was made out to be. I base that skepticism on past experience in these kinds of cases. The Chipotle thing was blown WAY out of proportion to the point of having key “facts” fabricated, for example.
I guess I’m just asking for a little more substance that “someone said” and “impressions.”
JR_in_NC: There is the video of open carry advocates acting belligerent and threatening a lawmaker. I would consider that evidence. So, there’s at least one instance (with at least 2-3 OC advocates involved). I’m assuming that was the only instance of note, however, since any further instances would have been highlighted along with that one. I believe they were not arrested, so, no police report.
Don’t get me wrong: except for openly intimidating a rep in his own office, then refusing to leave when asked, I don’t see anything really wrong with the protests that I did hear about there and on that day.
I also don’t think that the new Tex House rule (the panic button thing) is quite the death knell that some seem to believe it is; in fact, as it has been detailed thus far, it seems like a reasonable rule, and is totally unrelated to OC or firearms in general.
“There is the video of open carry advocates acting belligerent and threatening a lawmaker. “
I read part of the article but did not watch the video.
So, the video did actually show the folks showing their backside? Good to know.
That’s far different than someone repeated what someone SAID happened. Also, I was not sure if this was another example of people extrapolating from the claim to “it must have really happened exactly like that” that we OFTEN see in news stories and subsequent comments.
“Question:
What is so horrible about peaceably standing out in front of the legislature with signs and rifles on your shoulder?”
Because…OMG GUNS!
For all the talk our side gives to “the gun ain’t the problem,” there sure are a lot of us that focus on the gun as the problem.
A stroll down memory lane:
Chipotle and Home Depot OC-ers should be shot…not comments not by the anti’s, but from our side. “You don’t carry that way!” (Recall that the Chipotle thing was POSED pictures).
OC-er with holstered sidearm and hands nowhere near the gun going door-to-door to pass out fliers…”If he came to my door like that, I’d shoot him!”
No real threat assessment; no “he’s acting suspicious.” Just…there’s a gun, I don’t like it…draw and shoot.
It really puts a lot of things into perspective…that is, just how deeply the anti-gun message has been sold,. And bought.
Thanks for your points. I have pasted them below with my responses.
Mike
Mike,
Fact:
==Texas politicians and courts killed open and constitutional carry in Texas over 100 years ago.
Fact: True, it was done to disarm blacks.
Fact:
==Texas politicians, courts, and police who enforce blatantly unconstitutional firearm laws are your enemy.
No, they are not. They are our neighbors and citizens whom we elected. This has been my entire argument. We have the absolute right but it has been infringed and has been found lawful by the Supreme Court. That is why elections matter.
Question:
==What is so horrible about peaceably standing out in front of the legislature with signs and rifles on your shoulder?
It would not have been horrible if the morons hadn’t been confrontational, forcing themselves into the various offices and refusing to leave.
Question:
==What is so horrible about peaceably milling small pieces of aluminum out in front of the legislature? I have no particular beef with that. Some who witnessed it were concerned.
Suggestion:
==Direct your ire at your Texas politicians, courts, and police.
I did, with letters, campaigning and voting.
Suggestion:
==Support and encourage EVERYONE who is working to restore our rights.
I do, every day. That’s why I beat my head against some on TTAG who do not seem to understand the maxim of catching flies with honey.
Suggestion:
==Go out and actively oppose Texas politicians who gleefully infringe your rights … go out and campaign for Texas politicians who respect your rights.
See above.
Suggestion:
==Identify friends, neighbors, co-workers, and family who have never shot a firearm before; take them out to a range and provide a safe and positive experience.
I do. I am a Guardian member of Frontsight, Benefactor member of NRA and Defender member of TSRA. I work constantly at this issue.
To sum up. The Open Carry movement in Texas was a noble idea but horribly executed. I get that some of us reject utterly the idea of begging our elected officials for our rights. So do I. Politics is the art of the possible. We work the system to gain what we want and then defend it continuously.
What happened over the last few months and weeks have destroyed any chance at OC or CC. We as the gun community have only ourselves to blame. Rino Joe and his democrat enablers will make sure that none of the filed bills will even get a vote. Count on it.
Mike, that was overall a good response, and I appreciate the level headed tone of the discussion.
But…one thing.
“What happened over the last few months and weeks have destroyed any chance at OC or CC. “
Not sure what you mean by this. TX already has CC, and it remains to be seen about whether the chance of OC there has been “destroyed.” Set back by the recent misbehavior in the State House maybe, but not necessarily destroyed.
Could you clarify that part of your comment?
Yes, thanks for pointing this out. CC stands for Constitutional Carry in the jargon that has been bandied about down here. We refer to concealed carry as CCW or CHL. Sorry for the confusion. Open Carry (OC) was meant to be for persons already holding a concealed carry permit. That’s all gone now. Joe Strauss was re-elected as Speaker of the Texas House. He is on record as having been adamantly opposed to CHL when it was first proposed and worked hard to defeat it. He now controls the bills. I fully expect him to deny any of the the OC or Constitutional Carry bills a vote in the House. He has the backing of all the democrats and there aren’t enough votes to force the bills past him.
“Yes, thanks for pointing this out. CC stands for Constitutional Carry in the jargon that has been bandied about down here.”
Thanks. That dawned on me while I was away from the computer.
“Sorry for the confusion. “
No worries. Totally my bad. I should have figured it out.
Few days into it and you’re already sending up the white flag, seems kind of premature, don’t you think?
If a couple guys making a ruckus could kill any chance of enacting change, there’s wasn’t much a chance to begin with.
Open Carry was a done deal. Constitutional Carry, which is what we should all be pushing for, was not. But it was possible. Now Constitutional Carry is out of the question and Open Carry has new, energizing, opposition.
What is that assessment based on? Was there a press release or memo put out stating that very thing, or was that just an opinion?
If it’s an opinion, stop presenting it as fact. If it’s fact, please provide proof.
Rockonhellchild, my assessment is based on a 17 year career in the capitol and capitol complex, and speaking directly with legislators and thier staff. Here is some advice to every OC advocate who hasn’t realized yet what this kind of poor behavior has done: sit down and shut up, the grownups are talking.
Yup.
You’re scaring the right people and electing the wrong ones.
Somebody ring a bell. That is it exactly.
Well, he has a plan.
On a more practical level, why should we be nice to politicians who infringe on our basic human rights? Because they wear formal suits and dresses? Because 50% +1 of the population elected them?
Imagine a criminal syndicate whose members wore formal suits and dresses, published formal “rules” of forbidden conduct, and sent out goons to assault anyone who broke the rules … and imagine that one of their rules forbid displaying your favorite college team sports flag. Why on Earth should we be nice to the members of that syndicate?
And why on Earth should we be nice to politicians who forbid the display or carry of firearms?
In what world does antagonizing politicians and trespassing help gain back our rights? How does belligerently yelling at a legislator advance our cause? We had it in the bag! All we had to do was keep our nose to the grindstone and see this thing through to the governors desk. Not go around verbally assaulting the very people we need to get these bills passed. Open carry is good. Some of the people that seem to represent us are just not responsible, or even act like adults
So, he’s not worried about being ridiculed in the press. That’s courageous.
There’s courageous, and then there’s stupid. Some people are oblivious to their own ridicule or the fact that they deserve every bit of it. They HAVE NO CLUE how politicians think, how they make decisions, or what truly motivates them to vote a certain way on a certain issue. They seem pathetically desperate for attention, and have somehow arrived at the idea that they can bully politicians into giving them what they want. Politicians have never taken kindly to this sort of behavior, and it will never help their cause.
It’s called “realpolitik” and denotes the way political power-arrangements are handled when important decisions are being made. Misunderstanding the realpolitik of Texas politics is a fatal error, especially when you are promoting a good idea that competes with other “good” ideas supported by different, competing, constituencies.
My red-neck sensibilities cause me to look at this a little differently. “Realpolitik” can also mean “Don’t screw the pooch”. Once you screw the pooch you can’t take it back; your credibility is shot, you’ve lost your moral imperative, and your opponents—ably helped by a supportive liberal media—will happily turn the open carry issue into a bad cartoon. There’s demonstrating to prove a political point—that’s called realpolitik—and then there’s screwing the pooch. which accomplishes the exact opposite. Looks to me like some of the open carry ninjas need to learn the difference.
Concealed carry licensing has become too big of an industry for us to ever be allowed to go back to constitutional carry.
I wondered about this too at one time and posted a message to this effect. I heap of CC instructors from all over the country posted they would gladly give up the income from CC classes in exchange for Constitutional Carry.
Maybe not every such instructor would, but there is hope that at least that segment of the ‘industry’ cares more about the true fight than perpetuating CC permitting just to pad the bottom line.
Couple that with the fact that a lot of CC class instructors offer free classes, and well…I think this “industry” is less “solely about the money” than some others that could be named.
The big barrier would be the governments fighting loss of the actual license revenues more so than the private sectors that operate within that industry. That’s my read, anyway.
Any state that denies its citizens the right to carry openly is just a slave state in disguise, and that includes the Republic of Texas.
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