“We are not going to be marching through 5th Ward, we’re going to hopefully be marching with 5th Ward.” – Open Carry Texas Founder CJ Grisham quoted in Open Carry Texas Schedules New Date For Armed March Through Black Neighborhood [via politicususa.com]
The comments section of that article is a gold mine.
I have a suspicion that the “Shiva” person is the radial leftist woman who called the cops on open carry folks just to be an a hole.
Gun safety, the racist card, short penises, terrorists, uneducated rednecks, religion……. They seem to have covered all the bases didn’t they?
Yep. The comments. Unable to wrap their heads around why a bunch of racist baby killers would want to arm the 5th ward, they come up with “cant start a race war if the other side is unarmed!” It is so brilliant in it’s stupidity that I can hardly believe it. And they are all RUNNING WITH IT, even calling for (presumably illegally) armed gang bangers to make a scene.
How dare these racist gun toting murderers want residents of 5th ward to exercise their civil right to protect themselves.
Gee I didn’t think the article was all that bad for self described “liberals”. And no I don’t think they need to march in the ghetto. The comments were fairly standard fare. If OCT wants to help black folks buy a shotgun for a poor black woman. This stunt has NOTHING to do with the neighborhood. From an old white man married to a beautiful black woman .
Another great demonstration of tactical and PR stupidity, brought to you, again, by OCT.
Well done guys, you have once again served up a large amount of ammo to Bloomberg and crew.
OCT has to be funded by Bloomberg. It HAS to be. There is absolutely no other explanation for their stupidity.
I agree Paul. These kinds of demonstrations make the anti-gun groups point at all gun owners and say “see … people that own guns are crazy.” The sad thing is that people who were previously neutral on the subject tend to believe that we’re all “crazy” after this kind of demonstration.
I tend to disagree. I think neutral people will look at the picture, say “Huh” and go back to worrying where their next paycheck is coming from and if it will cover expenses. Been there, done that.
That’s true until election time comes around and they see a pro-gun candidate and somewhere in the back of their minds they think “Oh yeah, that’s who those douchebags will be voting for. I’ll vote for the other guy.”
Bloomberg really doesn’t need to spend millions of dollars on anti-gun campaigns as OCT seems to be doing that work for him. Why can’t they see that freaking people out about guns is a very poor way of helping people to understand that guns are a good thing?
Indeed. These guys just don’t get it. “Hey man, lets tool up and stroll through a black neighborhood”, um WTF? why? they’re not going to see, and think, “oh hey, look at, all them white guys in the street carrying guns, I bet they’re here to support my right to own a gun.” WRONG, they’re going to see exactly what they see, a bunch of white guys in the street with guns. OCT is confirming allot of the anti’s stereotypes.
You whine when they’re at restaurants. You whine when it’s a march. Other than whining, what’s your grand plan for expanding firearms freedoms?
And you “Jonathan in Houston” … apparently don’t bother reading very carefully.
One part of the grand plan is stop doing dumbass things and cheering on those who do.
That’s just circular reasoning. You whine because whining what’s necessary, so you whine, because whining is what’s necessary………..
Two important facts: NONE of this has had any appreciable, measurable, negative impact on anything. True or false? Again, you can whine about Chipotle or Sonic or Starbucks or whatever, but not a single thing has ACTUALLY changed on the ground there, now has it? Yes, I’d prefer they’d come out resolutely in favor of firearms freedoms, but that’s not what they’re in business to do. So I’m not all that disappointed. They did come out with wishy washy proclamations, carrying no force of law and having so practical impact on anything, so I’m not terribly disappointed by that, either.
Beyond the phantom setbacks you keep harping on, the fact is that firearms freedoms are on the march all across the country in states where such a topic is at least open to debate. In places already firearms friendly, rights are running rampant. And don’t even try to tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about. I read each state’s updates every week from the NRA and then I read the local news in those states to firm up my understanding.
So you have basically ZERO facts of any “damage” done by these demonstrations and, other than whining and proffering phantom non-examples of damage, you have ZERO grand plan to do anything. Soooo……..why don’t you STFU unless and until you have a better idea than these men and women who are actually getting off their butts and doing something constructive? Is that clear enough for you, or do you want to insult me some more in evasion of the frailty of your position?
Nicely said Jonathan we could use a guy like you if you’re interested email me. [email protected]
“So you have basically ZERO facts of any “damage” done by these demonstrations and, other than whining and proffering phantom non-examples of damage, you have ZERO grand plan to do anything.”
Wrong. My gun is no longer welcome in Starbucks, Chipotle’s, Wendy’s, Jack in the box, or Target. Those businesses have made that crystal clear. Those who help provoke these responses, even if inadvertently, are helping to normalize NOT patronizing businesses while armed. Yet they continue to play into the hands of the antis. The level of idiocy being displayed here is absolutely infuriating.
And, no it doesn’t matter whether or not those have the force of law. I actually believe in abiding by a property owner’s wishes. Unlike a lot of people here (“concealed means concealed”–translation: “F*** your property rights”). And now a bunch more property owners have told me to leave it at home.
I am not even in Texas, and I have been harmed by their antics.
Why not just say we whine when they do anything stupid that puts all gun owners on the defensive. That should cover it.
I’m not on the defensive. So your argument fails. Why not start speaking for yourself and citing some facts, rather than spewing overheated opinions and unrepresentative rhetoric?
@Houston, as for “spewing overheated opinions and unrepresentative rhetoric” you’ve got that more than well covered.
The more I see people OC long guns, the more it seems to separate me from supporting it. In 2014, it feels culturally oppositional/defiant, no matter how much I want to agree and support it. I can’t see too many people changing their minds about firearms by seeing someone walk around with a carbine on their back.
It feels like the fringe of what I support, and it is easily able to be frayed even in my own consciousness, and I feel ashamed for feeling that way.
I’d love to see people go OC holster with or without a pistol (Someone suggested this a month or so ago). Small doses. Look how TV has changed culture over time to accept certain “fringe” behaviors or lifestyles. We can do the same in small doses and firm spines. Don’t back down, but don’t be an ass.
If you don’t know if you’re being an ass or not, well… be careful because as a gun owner, you represent us /all/.
+1
That’s the thing, see, they say they’re doing this to get open carry of pistols legalized…. however, all their going to do is get open carry of rifles banned. Its that simple. Completely foolish and counter productive campaign tactic.
“Subtle” has NEVER been used to describe them.
Let’s set the way back machine to 1964 and reread your comments with some modifications, shall we?
“The more I see blacks sitting in the front of the bus, the more it seems to separate me from supporting it. In 1964, it feels culturally oppositional/defiant, no matter how much I want to agree and support it. I can’t see too many people changing their minds about blacks by seeing someone sit at the front of the bus.”
Or…….
“The more I see people kissing someone of the same sex, the more it seems to separate me from supporting it. In 1964, it feels culturally oppositional/defiant, no matter how much I want to agree and support it. I can’t see too many people changing their minds about firearms by seeing some guy walk around with a his arm around some other guy.”
Firearms freedoms are the civil rights struggle of our time. If we’re to continue advancing free exercise of our rights, it’s going to have to come through a combination of agitation and organization. Hoping and praying, never mind whining, have no serious role in any plan.
The government is NEVER going to wake up one day and just pass new laws repealing existing infringements. NEVER……GOING…….TO……HAPPEN. We must use aggressive means to demand our rights. Nobody ever scored a victory while sitting on the sidelines, and certainly nobody ever did so while heckling and booing their own team from the cheap seats in the stands.
John in Houston, you keep trotting out the black civil rights movement as some sort of “model” for OCT.
Ironically, without realizing it, you prove my point by so doing.
MLK knew precisely what made for good and bad PR.
OCT are a bunch of TX fools who don’t.
And apparently, you don’t get it either.
You think MKL ever would have sent a crowd of black people carrying long guns into a white neighborhood to advance the cause of civil rights? Do you?
+1
Jonathan – That is the sad thing. I am aware of my myopic or even incorrect inclinations and feelings about this, but I feel “programmed” that way, even though that is not what I know is right.
The fact is, many in colleges have used the open carry empty holster day to obtain the right to conceal carry on some college campuses in states with more lenient CCW laws. It has worked and could work in Texas, if used that way. It gets the point across far more effectively without scaring the general public and causing hysteria from the press and any of Bloomberg’s minions. The OCT folks are not doing any of the rest of us any favors by getting us banned from some of the places we like to frequent. Check it out here – http://concealedcampus.org/empty-holster-protest/ .
Please read Bruce. http://opencarrytexas.wordpress.com/2014/05/23/joint-statement-on-oc-of-long-arms/
Everyone should read this. Learning and evolving is the only way any of this will work.
The more dumb stunts OCT pulls the more people are gonna call them idiots yet people will eventually see that they are harmless idiots thus accomplishing their goal of normalization of open carry
I disagree. What they’re accomplishing is having all people associate gun ownership with being an idiot. They’re a handful of guys who crave attention and don’t care about how their stunts reflect on gun owners in general.
Their demonstrations have give the opposing side PR victories with Starbucks, Target……
They are playing a losing game of checkers. The opposition is winning a game of 3-D chess.
They can stop any time now……
If they were disciplined I’d agree, but given how bad their muzzle safety is I’m inclined to say it’s only a matter of time until they’ll responsible for an ND on live TV.
That’ll go over well.
If you don’t support open carry of guns in a demonstration, then you don’t support the second amendment, because that is exactly what the second amendment is for.
@Skyler:
Insert major eye roll and major face palm here. Invincible ignorance is such an ugly thing to see.
Yes, insults and mockery are the best argument when you have nothing else.
IMO pual isn’t an idiot I think he is on the wrong side of a lot of thinks based on his comments here if a bit trollish
Paul, you should not get so angry. At your weight and poor physical condition you could have a stroke. And how sad would that be?
Yeah, ok, OC of long guns is just fine. But when you do like an ass, you do it like an ass. And when you do it like an ass, you make us all look like an ass. All your going to accomplish is get open carry of rifles banned.
I, the majority of the people in the US, and the SCOTUS all respectfully disagree with your legal opinion.
I actually agree with you to a point, but I just do not think these tactics are quite working the way the OCT people think they are.
So when people tell you to shutup in a movie theatre do you go on about the first amendment as well?
/yawn
Alright, this is the last nail in the coffin for OCT. They are marching with one “Maurice Muhammad” who is a follower of the Nation of Islam. The NOI is aligned with the Church of Scientology, 100% hucksters.
Look up Farrakhan praising L. Ron Hubbard Youtube. He recommends Dianetics to his followers and urges them to undergo auditing.
OCT are a bunch of slack jawed morons at best, agent provocateurs at worst. It is not hard to believe at this point they are actively trying to make gun owners look bad.
Even the Nation of Islam has second amendment rights.
His point is that its a scam, kind of like Alex Jones, he’s nothing but a charlatan.
I do not believe carrying a long gun openly should be illegal, but there is a time and a place for doing so. That is what frustrates me about OCT. Their entire movement is based around this “gotcha” concept that they will OC rifles since they can’t do it with handguns in Texas.
It should be clear by now that this approach is at best flawed… in my opinion though the conduct of OCT in particular is suspect. Teaming up with Farrakhan shows they are either very ignorant or they want to make 2A supporters look crazed. I find it hard to believe the Army officer who leads OCT is so tone deaf on the issues. I think he knows what he is doing and if that is the case, then he is a subversive.
Or has sustained one concussion too many.
There are plenty of idiots in the Army, many of which have little to no experience with weapons. Most officers do staff work (i.e. go to meetings and write emails).
Here we go … again
Here we go again, I wonder if MDA is going to go set up shop and starting picketing/pretesting inside 5th Ward just like everywhere else this OCT guys go?
I would bet that none of the “OCT” characters are old enough (or lived in Texas back when..) to remember that open carry of long arms was once normal throughout the state, and everyone thought so little of it that it wasn’t even worth talking about. Both my Dad and I had gun racks in the back window of our PUs, with a rifle and a shotgun mounted full time. There are several cases on record of armed citizens assisting Highway Patrol “back when,” using available long arms at the instant of need. Then we had a radical governer and things changed all over the state. The university police (good ole’ SF Austin) twice told me I was just asking for the PU to be broken into even though I was a grad student and had lived on campus for 5 years with no problems, like a large number of other students. I would guess a large number of men students had a firearm stuffed into the closet for weekend hunting and shooting (up until shortly after I graduated the ROTC small arms range was open weekends for private pratice!) Then we got co-ed dorms! And new, more “liberal” rules. Finally I (and everyone else) got a letter telling me I couldn’t have firearms on campus, even in vehicles. Took them home. A couple years later somebody broke into the PU down the block from my parents and ravaged the truck for the rifle, stereo, etc. Dad finally brought his two guns back into the house. And slowly you stopped seeing guns in PU truck windows all over the state becuase the DPS cruisers started using them as a rationale for road stops.
So the OCT folks are simply living like little spoiled children who want to scare the (now well trained) sheeple who have followed the teachings of non-violence and submission to both legal AND criminal authority. Demonstrations by 99% white working class radicals won’t work to relax the laws, it’s simply causing a backlash and turning more and more of the undecided and (formerly) uncaring population to believe that ALL firearms need to be controlled/eliminated in the civilian world. These OCT folks need to stop exercising their paranoia and anger in public and get with the NRA and TSRA and work the political system from the inside, that’s all that will work. Just look at the process length of time it took to get concealed carry in the state, and that was done positively.
I could agree with most of what you have written, up to the point where you recommend that OCT simply lie back, take the abrogation and infringement on their civil rights as long as necessary like good subjects, and leave the negotiations with the King Across the Water on just what ‘rights’ they shall be given to the NRA and TSRA.
If you have forgotten, the NRA is the group that has given us, through their support of safe and sane gun laws, the 1934 National Firearms Act, the 1968 Gun Control Act, the 1986 Firearm Owners Protection Act, and the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban.
To me, although I am a member and have been for some time, the NRA is acting in a manner similar to a Jewish Block Warden in 1943 Warsaw: “If we give up just a few bad apples, and agree to give up just a few of our rights, the Government will leave the rest of us alone.” To which the Government can reply, and I paraphrase: “I have no further interest in the normal guns, that is guaranteed. We want no bolt-action rifles!”… Or shotguns. Or pistols.
TSRA proudly states on their website that they are ‘Friends of the NRA.’
With friends like these. . .
I do agree with you, you make some good points. The NRA did support those gun control measures up until the 1990s. But they did fight against the 94 AWB, though unsuccessfully. They probably could’ve fought allot harder, I’m not sure, I was 7 or 8 at the time. But the NRA has gotten allot better since 60s 70s and 80s.
Here’s the process as seen in a single party (Democrat) state:
1. Overseers add more restrictive laws
2. Calls arise to “Vote the Bastards Out!”
3. Fail
4. ????
5. Repeat over four years
Every time OCT sets sail, I really want to jump on board, but the organization (verb, not noun) just isn’t there, for me.
They have the right idea, they just aren’t doing it right, IMO.
It’s like watching peewee football. Yeah, it’s football, but it’s chaotic and allover the place.
Open carry of rifles is not against the law, but you guys calling OCT rail against these guys and gals as if they’re criminals. I love the “Man, click the link an just read those nasty, hateful comments!” remarks — no thanks, I can see plenty on this site right here.
Dean Weingarten posted a great piece on this very site pretty much refuting all the “We’re losing the PR war!” blather, yet continue the blather does. Something was said above about “invincible ignorance,” I believe?
IF MDA gets OC of long rifles banned through their mad PR skillz, you might say, “Ha! That’s what you get, you dumb OC hicks!” However, when Shannon then turns to pistols (both the open and concealed carry of), you’ll whine, “Hey, you just said rifles! That’s not fair!”
So it’s going to be our fault when OCT gets long gun OC banned.. because we said that could happen due to OCT’s incompetency at understanding how PR works?
Lovely logic.
We need to be sure we are debating the methods of OCT, not the necessity of a group to bring to light the illogical nature of gun-control laws. Way too much Paul T. McCain (Bloombergs press secretary) being thrown around here.
I also fail to believe the “scare the fence sitters rhetoric” as well. Likely OCT just gives the “gun-control” crowd something else to be obsessed with. Most fence sitters I talk to aren’t turned off by people open carrying. I think we make a mountain out of a molehill with this issue.
Agreed! Fence sitters are more concerned about eating and having a place to live on a continuing basis. Antis are those who are well enough off not to have those worries (i.e., have “discretionary” time and income).
You people are either simply stupid, or, as I suspect, so blinded by your obsession with OC PR stunts you can not understand that we who reject the tacts of OCT are FOR the Second Ammendment and FOR constitutional carry and that is precisely why we oppose the OCT idiots who are simply playing right into the hands of the antis.
Why you people can’t figure this out is just beyond me.
Suggested reading, recently published book: Nicholas Johnson, “Negroes and the Gun: The Black Tradition of Arms,” 2014. amzn.com/161614839X . “This remarkable book remembers for us a long-forgotten, or possibly selectively forgotten, black tradition of arms—one too often overlooked in current debates over civil rights and gun legislation.”
I’m sure a crowd of TX rednecks marching through their neighborhood carrying long guns will encourage them to run right out and read that particular book.
Sigh. Every social movement has its loose cannons and it looks as if the OC crowd has become ours. More and more, I cannot help comparing them with the “Hollywood Stunz” bikers who thought it was cool to take over NYC streets to do wheelies and stoppies. I’m sure there was some purported social message implied by their actions but, basically, they were just a bunch of young guys showing off . . .until it all went bad, a biker got run over, the driver mobbed and beaten, and people started going to jail. Will the OCers end up that way? While I hope not, they appear to be every bit as clueless and just plain dumb as the Stuntz bikers. A bunch of rifle carrying white guys parading through a black neighborhood spells K-L-A-N or N-A-Z-I to anybody with even a trace of historical knowledge. And, of course, if they don’t you can just bet Shannon and the Moms, along with every liberal editorial writer in the country will make sure they hear about it over and over and over again.
I think I may have answered my own question. I think it would be hard for even a clueless dweeb to do something this dumb. But it’s not at all dumb if you’re working for Bloomberg and the Mom’s. Think someone with a strong PR background and some political savvy wouldn’t love to put something like this together? Really?
So just to be clear, if someone is stupid or a boor (in your opinion) they don’t have a right to open carry? Instead of knocking these people down like the antis are doing why don’t we all just drink a big cup of STFU and let them do their thing. Those who judge harshly will do so anyway and those on the fence can form their opinions based on more than just OC actions. And for those saying that people are judging us all by their actions, how are they any better who judge all black people by the actions of gang bangers?
They’re not a group of guys casually carrying long guns, they’re an organized group which claims to speak for the entire gun rights movement. They’re doing public drama as a way of expressing a specific political point of view. The question is about the actual political point of view they are supporting. You’ll have to connect the dots to see what I’m talking about.
In the end Texas will be the only state to allow its citizens to posess firearms. We will then be identified as an outlaw state.
Unless you’ve walked a mile in another man’s boot you have no idea what you’re talking about. Those espousing “I’m pro gun but” is the same kind of thinking that brought on the 34 NFA,68 Gun Control Act, 86 Hughes Amendment, and the 94 AWB. You’re either for the 2nd amendment in its absolute form or you’re just an Internet keyboard warrior who like likes to lube his barrel and play with dangerous things for fun in his spare time. If you’re not willing to fight for your rights and settle for “good enough” I’m sorry, but you’re just as at fault for the way the rights are than the antis.
Sincerely,
Ryan Jones
Gun Rights Across America
National Twitter Coordinator
Or find yourself hoisted on your own petard, perhaps?
I am definitely going to use the word “petard” the next time I play Scrabble.
I suppose somebody has to organize the Chipotle Ninja OC twits.
: )
Right. Got to love the “you must think exactly like me or there’s something wrong with you” attitude. Where else do we see frequently see that attitude?
That was pretty good. You should tweet that to both your followers…
I just read the comments and it is indeed interesting stuff.
I’m all for OC, CC, whatever but freedom can indeed be a bit messy sometimes. IMO these folks are taking their chances down there. I can’t believe I’m saying it, but if it transpires without anyone doing anything REALLY stupid (like shooting at someone) then it’s definitely got to be a Bloomberg-funded bunch of agent provocateurs. Has to be. So I’m wrong either way. What a world gone mad.
But again….I really hope no one does something stupid.
Did I mention I really hope no one does something stupid?
Tom
I see the anti-open carry, and thus by extension anti-gun, trolls are out in full-force even here today.
Oh, and don’t even bother replying with the whole “they’re only going to get OC of long-guns banned” bullshit, because it’s exactly that: unsupported, indefensible, and unsupportable bullshit. You anti-open carry, and thus by extension anti-gun, trolls can even go ahead and shove your “this is a PR loser for us” arguments right up where the Sun don’t shine, because there is absolutely nothing to back them up. Not even hot air.
You’re either for the expression and exercise of all civil rights, or you’re not. Some of you have quite clearly fallen into the latter category, and noneof you latter folks can even begin to deconstruct that point, so don’t even bother trying.
Do you really think your position is so indefensible, that you have to resort to name calling, bold letters, and false logic? So either people support every disturbingly fringe thing OCT does, or we are totally against open carry and therefore the second amendment? Look at the latest TTAG poll. To summarize, You will find almost everyone supports open carry. Half of those support open carry no matter what, such as danger carry in Chipotle. I guess you would be in the “get a bunch of armed white guys marching down the street of a black neighborhood – how can that possibly send the wrong message and hurt the movement” crowd. The other half think open carry, and rallies, are good, but it should be done in a more responsible fashion so as to help the movement. Based on your illogical argument and apparent lack of critical thinking skills, I can certainly see how you would end up in the camp you are in. And since you are a fan of bold letters, why don’t you use italics and other colors? That will no doubt really help sell your argument. But hey, don’t let logic get in your way of a good rant,
“You’re either for the expression and exercise of all civil rights, or you’re not. . .”
Oh, come now. Talk about begging the issue. Is it really possible for anyone who’s lived in this country for any length to not know that the image of rifle-carrying white guys intentionally demonstrating in a black neighborhood is absolutely OWNED by the KLAN, the NAZIS, the ARYAN NATIONS, and any other garden variety white supremacist group? What these guys are dong is so plainly NOT about civil rights.
The message that’s going to the American public is that all these guys are lacking are white sheets and burning crosses. This can’t be anything other than deliberate opposition propaganda.
Come to think of it, the only way OC Texas can pull the rabbit out of this hat is for there to be a mixed group of rifle-carrying black and white guys open carrying through the 5th ward. Can OC Texas pull something like that off? Can the spokesman explaining gun rights and why they’re demonstrating to the public be a black guy? Just wonderin’ . . .
OCT has every flavor of human being you can think of. So there shoots that theory down.
Ryan Jones, what a joke.
You are seriously going to try to convince us that OCT has a huge number of minorities, rather than white people?
As far as I’m concerned the folks involved in OCT pulling these stunts are a bunch of moronic rednecks.
I’m curious what does race have to do anything? Seriously your race baiting crap is getting old. Guns are not a white thing, it’s an American thing and last I checked as long as you were a citizen regardless of race you are able to own guns. So unless you have something relevant and factual to debate why don’t you go ask Al Sharpton for some hair tips and quit being a troll.
@R.Jones…you are the one who asserted OCT is the “Rainbow Coalition” of open carry groups. And you get upset when I challenge that assertion? Hmmm….maybe you realize that your assertion is actually false. He who asserts must prove, so, Jones, where’s the proof for your original assertion?
I assert nothing. You’re the one trolling others opinions like a uncouth imbecile. You’ve offered nothing, but ad hominid attacks and no counter solution or constructive debate of any sort other than harass and make yourself look foolish. I doubt you’re even a gun owner or even pro gun. By the way you write I’d say you’re a paid troll like the Chinese use. So until you prove me otherwise wrong I’ll assume you as such. Good day sir.
I can always tell when I hit a bullseye in these conversations with somebody like the Twitter Organizer starts tossing off comments like this.
You are not even a gun owner!
You are paid by the Chinese!
Yup, a big old steaming pile of stupid comments like that from the likes of him really makes my day.
Kudos.
So Paul how would you in your infinite wisdom get public support for gun rights? Please the floor is yours.
And yet another thoughtful, articulate and well formulated response from Excedrin, who, apparently suffers from cognitive impairment, hence the need to massive doses of the over-the counter headache medicine he names himself after, not spelling it correctly, though.
😉
Oh look, yet another pointless post by McCain. Can’t afford to actually debate anyone huh? Only safe thing to do is resort to immature personal attacks.
I’ve “debated” people like you, whose tin foil hats are on so tight all they want to do is pine for the “good old days” of the South and come up with stupid arguments about how the Civil War was not about slavery, and blah, blah, blah.
You people are no friends of the RKBA, you are Bloomberg’s best allies.
Wait, hold it right there. You just said it. RKBA. Right to keep and bear arms. What does bear mean hmm?
As for the rest… Tin foil hat? Is that not synonymous with conspiracy theories? The only person here with a tin foil hat is you, what with your false implications of me being a Klan member.
The good ole days in the south? Maybe for the plantation owners.
The civil war exposed the flaws in the constitution, and the best resolution would have been peaceful succession. Freedom of association is unalienable, whether you and and your statist friends like that or not. Otherwise why do we have black, white, mexican, chinese etc neighborhoods and even cities?
I found this one outstanding letter in the responses to the article:
“So when they walk through the 5th ward are they expecting the fellas to rise up and march all the way to Austin and demand to speak to the Governor and force him to let all black men wear guns into the local convenience stores? yeah right. They don’t understand that the police treat black and white men differently. A white man walks down the street with a gun the cops will have a chat with him and then move on. A black man walks down the street with a gun the cops will call the SWAT team, FBI, National Guard, Sheriff, CIA, Immigration and your baby momma. They would fire every gun they have, reload and fire again just to prove a point.”
Maybe, just MAYBE, that could be the one thing that makes this protest more meaningful than some; While a substantial number of us, and responders to the original article, make much of the stupidity of the OCT folks doing this in a ‘black’ neighbourhood, isn’t this the actual point of the argument, that ‘equal rights’ MEANS ‘equal rights’ and that the 2nd Amendment applies to all? I for one don’t see the likelihood that the ‘streets will run red with blood!’, always foreseen by the anti-gun crowd. It doesn’t happen when CCW is commonplace, it doesn’t happen when OC is ‘legal,’ it doesn’t happen in high-gun-ownership cities and states. If OCT has done their homework and actually communicated with the people of the neighbourhood to explain what they are trying to do, and have included the population by invitation in the intended program, this approach just MIGHT get more support from the community. Isn’t that the desired result?
I know that it’s difficult for some of us, but if a POTG is doing something that is legal and harms no one else, it is not our place to reject him/her. ‘Civil rights’ can be messy in the exercise thereof; Buying into the anti-gun schism of ‘Good Gun Owner’ vs. ‘Bad Gun Owner’ for mere differences in how one legally exercises his/her 2nd Amendment right is a good way for all of us to lose the rights that we have.
Although not always true, the statement ‘The enemy of my enemy is my friend’ applies in this case. The OCT bunch is willing to risk public embarrassment, public scorn, harassment, and perhaps arrest to support their civil rights; What have WE done for Us, lately?
God bless you John that was perfectly stated.
“The OCT bunch is willing to risk public embarrassment, public scorn, harassment, and perhaps arrest to ENDANGER OUR civil rights”
Fixed it for you. That’s the whole problem. You think OCT is working to support 2nd amendments rights. I, and lots of other gun owners, think they’re a danger to 2nd amendment rights.
If you support OCT, please give me a rational explanation of how OCT marching through a black neighborhood is likely to improve the chances of the passage of a law in Texas that allows open carry of handguns.
So far, all OCT supporters have done is finger-point and name call, accusing anyone who opposes their specific tactics as being anti-gun. When you can’t explain your position coherently, it’s a good sign your position is wrong.
Prejudice can make one blind. You didn’t read what I wrote, so there’s little point in arguing with you.
However. . . We can only agree to disagree; A civil right cannot be taken, but can only be given away. A right that you cannot exercise freely is not a right at all.
In other words, you have no rational explanation.
I did read what you wrote, namely this: “If OCT has done their homework and actually communicated with the people of the neighbourhood to explain what they are trying to do, and have included the population by invitation in the intended program, this approach just MIGHT get more support from the community.”
This would be great IF it happened. But the march won’t get support from the local community, and we both know that. A hypothetical that’s not going to happen is not a rational explanation that justifies a (purported) strategy for political change.
In my opinion, if OCT had gotten a good number of residents to agree to march with them, then this would be a great demonstration. If they don’t have a significant number of residents to march with them (which they don’t), they shouldn’t march in the neighborhood. That’s the difference between effective political action and being a bunch of a-holes.
“THESE are the times that try men’s souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered . . . .”
True then, still true today. Complainers, STFU and leave your betters alone.
And looks like Ralphie boy just joined the club….
http://cdn.blu-raydefinition.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/A-Bag-Of-Hammers-BD_02.jpg?43a9dd
The fear many express is that the unusualness of carrying a rifle causes fear.
So how do we change it so that people grow accustomed again to seeing people carrying weapons? The best method is to start by doing so in public groups while holding signs saying what they’re doing.
The irrational fear that these people will destroy gun rights underestimate the support for guns in our country. They are responding to the anti-gun myths that Americans are afraid of guns as though the myths were true.
The alternative is for individuals to carry in public, but that is more likely to get negative attention.
If we can’t carry weapons in large groups while demonstrating then we can never carry in public and we have no right to bear arms.
The right to bear arms means the right to bear arms in public. Those decrying openly carrying weapons are saying we should not have the right to carry weapons at all. They are against the second amendment because that is what it is for.
Nicely stated. It would appear that some ‘supporters’ of the 2A are willing to accept that their civil rights come to an abrupt halt at the point where anyone else’s irrational fear begins.
What other civil rights are they willing to parse, do you suppose? “I really want to say that I dislike Barack Obama, but I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings.” “I would LIKE to refuse to let the nice policemen search my house without a warrant, but I’m afraid to offend them.” “Yes, I’d like a reasonable bail to be set, but I don’t want to make waves, so I’ll just sit here in jail.” “No, I am innocent, but I guess it’s better to be imprisoned than to defend myself because I might make somebody angry.”
Either you HAVE Rights, or you don’t.
“Those decrying openly carrying weapons are saying we should not have the right to carry weapons at all. They are against the second amendment because that is what it is for.”
This is complete horseshit. I think Open Carry Texas is composed of a bunch of fools that pose a real threat to everyone else’s 2A rights. The fact that the only response to OCT opposition throughout this thread is some variation of “if you don’t support what OCT does, you don’t support the second amendment at all” shows that there’s a good chance that OCT’s members don’t have sufficient mental capacity to safely handle firearms.
I have no problem with open carrying long guns when done in a manner to educate. I have a serious problem with it when done in a manner intended to provoke and draw attention, regardless of whether it’s negative or positive attention. OCT is a bunch of provocateurs and attention-hogs.
If you want to advocate for open carry of hand guns by open carry of long guns, do something like organize a static assembly where some folks open carry with signs explaining why, have other people not carrying distribute literature, etc. Marching through a black neighborhood just because it’s black is somewhere between silly and dangerous.
+1 – Well said.
You just don’t get it do you? Here, just in case you have forgotten… “A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.”
In any case, the bill of rights just reaffirms our natural and unalienable rights. Rights that have been relentlessly encroached upon, due to the fact that the Constitution is fundamentally flawed. This country is broken, and has been since 1861.
Do you wash your Klan robes at home, or send them out for dry cleaning?
Wow, nice burn. Or not.
Hey, why don’t you try something new, like actually debating someone? Oh right, you are too busy coming up with pointless one liners.
You want a debate? You got one.
So what should have happened in 1861?
Peaceful succession.
There is nothing, absolutely nothing in the constitution that states secession is either legal, or illegal. Therefore, under the 10th amendment… “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”
See what you are getting yourself into now, TT?
Good luck.
Peaceful secession so the south could continue in its excellent track record of protecting the natural and unalienable rights of its residents?
TheRequiem, I’ll throw a few more questions (and answers) at you:
Were the colonists justified in declaring their independence from the crown? If so, why? Hint: the crown was not respecting the colonists’ natural and inalienable rights.
Are black people human? If so, they have the same natural and inalienable rights as white people or any other color of people. Slave owners didn’t believe (or at least said they didn’t believe) black people were human. That’s how the slave owners could pretend to believe in natural rights when it came time to declare independence from the crown but deny these same rights to a large chunk of the population of the colonies.
The only reason the south wanted to secede (not succeed, btw) was so it could continue to deny a large portion of its residents their natural rights. (If you think they seceded for states’ rights, then states’ rights to do what?)
If the colonies had a right to buck the crown because of the crown’s trampling of natural rights, the U.S. had a right to stop the southern states from seceding for the purpose of being able to continue to trample natural rights. A person cannot with any degree of intellectual consistency claim to believe in natural rights, claim to believe that all people are human, and claim to believe the south had a right to secede from the union.
Well, then read my responses.
You have zero facts of any measurable negative impact of OCT activities, correct? If that’s not true, then show me the proof. Not your opinion, the proof. Not conjecture, the proof. Not examples of mealy mouthed corporate open letters with no legal backing and no practical effect, the proof.
You have zero grand plan of your own to offer as an alternative to OCT, correct? Yes, I see where you mentioned signage and explanations. Well, look at the pictures of their demonstrations. They DO have signs. They DO have people there to explain their position. They even have a designated PR Director (Victoria Montgomery) who’s on scene and giving interviews to the media. Hell, even this article’s source piece well explains OCT’s position. Granted, about midway through, the author goes over the edge and starts ranting his personal objections, but the first half of the article was surprisingly on target. Scoreboard OCT!
And why not demonstrate in a black neighborhood? The whole point is to draw attention to the racist roots and disparate impact of anti-firearms freedoms laws. The blacks took their civil rights struggle to the buses, the lunch counters and the segregated schools. The homosexuals took theirs to the courthouses and capitol buildings where their discrimination originated. Violent crime infected black neighborhoods are the perfect place to have this discussion and walking loudly and proudly through those neighborhoods projects solidarity and empathy. How dare you suggest that a peaceful civil rights march will eventuate in violence on the part of blacks who are the explicit beneficiaries of this activity.
Fighting for firearms freedom would be a whole lot easier if we didn’t have Fudds sniping us from the rear.
Fighting for gun rights and freedoms would be a lot easier wthout a lot of “rears” doing stupid things and pulling stupid stunts and making us all look like stupid redneck morons.
A point you utterly fail to comprehend, apparently.
Do have any idea your hilariously foolish your remarks sound? Such as:
” Violent crime infected black neighborhoods are the perfect place to have this discussion and walking loudly and proudly through those neighborhoods projects solidarity and empathy”
Yes, I’m sure the good Black folks got a huge warm and fuzzy from a crowd of white rednecks strolling along with long guns in their neighborhood.
HIlarious. LOL.
Honestly, if a person really can see no problem with a bunch of white guys parading into a predominantly black neighborhood carrying long guns he is dumber than a bag of hammers.
So black people own that neighborhood? Whites not allowed huh?
One more hammer for the bag.
That’s it? Can’t come up with anything else?
Another group of white guys paraded through another majority minority neighborhood in Houston with long guns. Last July, the Armed Citizen Project was handing out free shotguns in the Oak Forest neighborhood. Comprising the zip codes of 77018, 77091 and 77092, it’s the third largest neighborhood in Houston, with white, black and Hispanic populations split about evenly at 1/3 each.
I didn’t see any silliness or violence in response. Instead, I saw only grateful single women, thankful that someone’s taking the time to consider them, their safety, their security, and their exercise of their firearms freedoms.
Sooo…….
The open carry of long guns is NOT going to be normalized anytime soon.
Think about it this. Even the police do not regularly walk around with long guns. If you see a LEO walking around with an AR, there is most likely an active situation going on.
If the public is not OK with the police walking around with long guns, what makes you think their opinion of anyone else doing so will be any different?
The public and business owners are asking their state and local lawmakers stop these demonstrations.
The outcome will not be pretty. Here’s one example.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/town-at-lake-of-the-ozarks-bans-open-carrying-of/article_b6c0b0ee-cbb6-5ba4-83ac-3c9af2e836b8.html
http://www.ammoland.com/2014/07/missouri-governor-vetoes-nra-backed-pro-gun-bill/
Well, nobody was actually interested in engaging in public homosexual anal sex, either. However, some people wanted not to be arrested and prosecuted for engaging in that act in private, so they worked with what they could in public to draw attention to their plight. Namely, the homosexuals engaged in protests and parades during which they would kiss and hold hands and simulate sex acts. Many people from 1969 and Stonewall up through the gay pride parades of the 80s and 90s thought even that was overboard and unacceptable. And yet, eventually, social mores changed and court rulings and the law followed. Now it’s a whole different world for homosexuals.
The people open carrying rifles are often the first to say that they don’t actually want to carry rifles around. They want to be able to open carry handguns. However, rifles are what’s available at the moment, so they do that in expectation of drawing attention to their plight and effecting change for what they really want.
How is that so difficult to understand and appreciate?
As an example, many campuses have 1st ammendment zones where people can protest, with free speech being banned elsewhere on campus. 1st ammendment activists see this as unconstitutional.
Which of these two ideas do you feel is a better protest to get the policy overturned?
1) organice a static protest with signs and literature
Or
2) walk through campus yelling at people passing by.
Both are exercising their first ammendment rights. But, one is going to have a better chance of overturning the policy, and the other has a better chance of painting the activists as crazy.
If you can see the logic in this, why can’t you see it for open carry. It is perfectly reasonable to be pro 2nd ammendment, but think that someone’s approach is more likely to hurt the cause then help it.
Apparently you haven’t been to many protests, nor read of them in the past. Nobody’s protests engage anyone when they’re just standing around meekly. A few curious onlookers might take a look and pat them on the head, but that it’s. Real protests, ones that effect real change, are massive and momentous and convey the enormity of history that is on their side. Sitting on the stoop with a dinky sign and mousy deportment never gains attention for the cause, let alone respect and change.
I love how you completely twist what I said into “Sitting on the stoop with a dinky sign and mousy deportment”. I guess you honestly can’t comprehend that approach makes a difference. When you look at the civil rights movement, was it the nonviolent protests or the in your face aspects that were most successful? Skillful PR is very important.
First, I open carry regularly myself. I live on a very sparsely populated island in Michigan’s already remote Upper Peninsula. I carry a large revolver while out on walks with my young daughter. The chance of me running into another human are remote. The chance of me running into a black bear are high (just seen one yesterday from about 75 yards ). The bears usually split when seen by people but not always (teenage girl was mauled in a town not terribly far from ours just last summer). So it goes without saying I support open carry. It should also go without saying that these folks in Texas are ABSOLUTELY KILLING US. They give so much ammunition for the anti-gunners to use against us its crazy. I almost wonder if they aren’t some false flag group funded by Bloomberg (I know they aren’t but their shenanigans are off the charts). Now they’re going to go for a stroll through a black neighborhood. Yeah that sounds like a well thought out plan. Can’t see anything going wrong there. And for what? To protest Texas’s stupid law forbidding the open carry of handguns manufactured after 1899? I hope OCT has heard of and heeds the advice of not cutting of their noses to spite their faces.
Maybe I’m old fashioned, but a t-shirt wit the outline of a rifle on the back as if slung with the text “handguns are more practical” or having a cardboard cutout of a rifle with the same text worn with a string sling might be less controversial, generate more talk, and make the point.
Run (do not walk) away from anything involved CJ Grisham.
The problem to come is with Joe Strauss, Speaker of the Texas House. Laws don’t get passed unless he approves and, despite the R affiliation, he’s a liberal. Anyone care to tell me just how the well poisoning antics of the OCer crowd is going to influence someone whose political alignment is a lot closer to Shanon and the Moms than it is to them? You can bet Shanon’s got Joe’s phone number. The OCers . . . probably not.
“Joe Strauss is the incumbent Speaker, having risen to that post two years ago by garnering the overwhelming support of Democrats (65) as well as 11 weak-kneed Republicans. The result? Almost half of committee chairmanships to liberal Democrats and still others to those weak Republicans, causing a much larger percentage of Republican bills to be killed than Democrat bills, and abandonment of important measures like Voter ID.” h/t Redstate.com
Oh yay another skirmish in the on going TTAG civil war over carry demonstrations. Yes personally I believe OCT could be better organized and wear their chosen long guns better but there’s always gonna be a few (look up the pvt Carl meme) I also think we should move past all the bitching and animosity and either agree to disagree or support the message and offer CONSTRUCTIVE criticism not the whole “dey took er rights rabble rabble rabble!!!”
Nice thought, but the OCT Fanatics, aka, the Chipotle Ninja crowd and their supports do not want to listen to or hear ANY criticism. They’ve made it abundantly clear they think they are martyrs for the cause and doing such profound good by behaving like idiots with their stupid PR stunts.
Unfortunately, Paul, your tendency to refer to all open carriers, or all members of OCT, as “rednecks” doesn’t help matters. You are just as bad as they are. Yes, there are asshat fanatics who will condemn any criticism of tactics as being anti 2A. They irritate me too, as you can probably tell from some of my comments here. But that doesn’t justify assuming that all OCers are just like those asshats.
You mean that how one goes about advocating for a point actually has some bearing on how well one’s point is received?
Interesting.
You’re wasting your snark on me, Paul, I’ve been making that argument all along.
I’m not totally sure how good or bad the OCT stuff is but one thing nobody is talking about is it’s the ONLY gun stuff EVER in the msm where a bunch of poor innocent gun free zone people aren’t killed.
Without oct, the gun stuff most antis and fence sitters are exposed to is 100% innnocents being killed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAKG-kbKeIo
Here comes the “I support ____ BUT” comment.
I support the right to open carry. I practice it myself when I hike with my family in the woods, I open carry a rifle in case we come across aggressive wildlife (badgers, bears, and cougars). I’ve had a few conversations about it with other hikers, it’s never been a problem (except for the weight of those pesky rifles!)
I understand what OCT is trying to accomplish and the laws in Texas are ridiculous. I’m glad to be in a gun-friendly state.
I spend a lot of time on progressive blogs refuting and attempting to engage the other side and put forth a “sane gun owner” image in online communities where they only expect an echo chamber.
I see the tactics of OCT providing “ammo” for the anti-gun crowd and that is why I (and others on this blog) are criticizing them. They aren’t normalizing OC, they are getting more people worried and polarized against us. My take is that democracy – nay, majority rule – is the best way to oppress a minority, and we are the unfortunate minority at the moment.
We know that the vast majority of the MSM are anti-gun and present these gatherings – manipulated, distorted, and flat-out lied about by the progressive crown – are hurting gun rights and alienating the law-abiding gun owner from the rest of the country. If they were actually presented to the masses as social protest the same way Gay Pride parades are, then we would see these events yielding positive results for gun rights. Instead they are continually demonized and presented as “proof that gun owners are crazy and shouldn’t own guns”. Starbucks, Chipotle, Target, Jack In The Box – rejecting ALL legal carry as a result of the OC demonstrations.
What’s a liberty-loving American to do? Does the property owner’s right to self-determination overrule the natural and Constitutionally-protected right to bear arms? Tough question for me.
THAT is why these demonstrations are bad. The results produced – numerous large corporations banning firearms on their premises – show that majority rule is against gun rights.
I think it’s going to get worse before it gets better.
OC is the gay pride parade of the second amendment. They are putting it out there in the extreme. This is the exact same arguments heard during the end of the last century. I’m out and I’m proud. And it caused the same dissention in the ranks. But it can help and hurt in the same measure. But if history shows it ends up being a positive effect over all.
A bunch of (mostly) white, guys carrying guns through a black ‘hood?
Yeah, no POSSIBLE WAY that could be construed as raysiss by the inhabitants of Houston’s poorest, blackest, most-fucked-up part of town.
I’m SURE, they’ll see the OCers are just protecting EVERYONE’S rights and not draw parallels between this and anti-civil rights marches.
Now I’m sure these guys are funded by Bloomberg or somebody, nobody can be that stupid.
In an election year no less! They must WANT Texas to go blue.
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