“We don’t train ordinary patrol officers to use a handgun. Instead, we make armed officers really specialist. We train them in close protection, to be snipers and even hostage rescuers. We make it really difficult to pass the firearms test, so smaller forces have problems getting officers of the right quality to do the training. It means we have highly trained officers, spread very thinly, and the likelihood is they will probably be in the wrong place at the wrong time when needed.” – Tony Long in London terror attack proves why ordinary police need firearms training and must carry guns, says ex-Met gun cop [via thesun.co.uk]

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74 COMMENTS

  1. A lot of their officers also probably can’t pass a firearms qualification because they’ve never held or even seen a real gun before in their lives.

    • Spot on, you got it exactly. Most modern Brits don’t have any idea of guns outside of what they’ve seen on screen. So no clue whatsof*ckinever in other words.

    • Which makes me wonder how actual firearms experts would rate the proficiency of their “really specialist” armed officers. After all, New Yorkers, from a culture isolated from firearms proficiency, seem to think the NYPD are on par with Delta Force.

    • Let’s be real. Cops in the UK, Australia, etc, have seen firearms and other weapons….. in the hands of criminals and terrorists…. which is scant comfort knowing your backups aren’t armed and therefore can’t help you.

  3. Fewer guns means Britain will probably have a more peaceful transition to their inevitable Sharia Law in 15 or 20 years. Nations generally get the government they deserve.

    • That could be. Though Brexit gives me hope that Britain is finding its balls again. If you follow British news and their message boards, there’s clearly a very large portion of Britons that are very aggressive in separating from Europe and reclaiming their nationality. To include much tougher border controls. After reading through much of that its very easy to compare Brexit and Trump. The movements have very much incommon.

      • A vast majority of today’s youth are hopelessly naive, clueless and ignorant.
        As the older folks who have “seen it all” die off, the youngsters will get what they thought they wanted. By the time they wise up, it will be GAME OVER.

        • False.

          This generation has been, and stil is, fighting the longest war in our history.

          They’ve seen their fair-share of shit.

        • You may be right. I certainly understand and even often agree with the sentiment.

          On the other hand, people have been worrying about ignorance and miseducation of the young leading to the ultimate decline of civilization at least since Socrates.

          Ultimately, certain truths do ring out and set things right. It is a shame though that it often takes far too long.

        • As a 21 year old conservative, is actually he surprised if that happened. It’s certainly a possibility, but leftist groupthink and college indoctrination is creating an entire generation who have very strong beliefs that are also incredibly shallow, because they don’t actually understand their own “beliefs”. Hell, they’re not even beliefs as much as lines they aggressively parrot, while viciously attacking anyone who refuses to conform. That’s not a solid foundation for long term idealogical hegemony. Of course, given their intellectual infancy, it’s also unlikely that they will slowly see that and start to actually think (largely because they don’t know how to do so). Over time, they’ll probably gain a growing sense of unease about their ideology, while simultaneously lacking the intellectual integrity to truly ask themselves the pertinent questions. Thus, their beliefs will grow ever more fragile and they will grow ever more hostile to the mere suggestion of anything being wrong. What’s the end game look like? Tough to say, but that will continue to push the siege mentality and otherization of the right that the leftists already seem to suffer from. Scary to consider such a fragile and volatile situation.

        • One angle many seem to forget is the great truth that the kids naturally want to rebel against the ‘establishment’. (Read, their parents.)

          …and the current ‘establishment’ is the ‘Progressive’ Left.

          Thanks to Hollywood and the FPS game industry, guns are now the ‘cool’ thing to many of today’s kids, seen mostly as just tools, and not evil on their own…

        • Ollie, I regret to say I agree. By the time these gentle, “tolerant” folks wake up, there will be no easy way to reclaim what they’ve lost… Then again, they may no longer be able to perceive that they are in bondage.

    • What do you expect when expect when you ELECT A MUSLIM MAYOR OF LONDON?!!!!!!!. Unfreaking believable; you get what you deserve.

    • Peaceful only in the Muslim definition of peace….when they are in complete control.
      That means everyone in the country has the choice:
      Convert to Islam
      Submit to Islam
      or die.

      If you do not convert or submit you will die. Some are not given the choice, they are brutally killed.

  4. So I can’t find any clear data on courses of fire or requirements from the NPFTC folks. They seem pointlessly secretive about it all which is a giant red flag. Maybe somebody else can find actual NPFTC training guidelines?

    What I have found from various UK departments documentation, review forms and paperwork along with some info gleaned off of the UK’s version of Officer.com and Police One is that they shoot about as much as a typical US cops annual qual course. Some are lucky enough to have access to free ammo and range time whenever but few actually take advantage.

    So “highly trained” yet again means what we all know it means. Gun-phobic slob who punches holes in paper once a year and thinks he’s the shit for having done so.

    • I would’ve bet that they shoot as much as any NYPD guy, especially when they think they don’t have the need because “nobody is armed”. Good luck Bobby, you’re going to need it.

    • In the land of the blind…

      (anyone over there who knows how to operate a handgun is probably considered tactical AF)

  5. “Seconds count when a constable is in trouble but the armed officer is minutes away.”

    Every bobbie must ask himself “what would Jim Brass do?”

    • In this last case, per the BBC, while the male officer was down and still being stabbed again and again, his partner (of unstated sex) quoting from memory here, because it struck me, “ran away to get help”. What…the…hell?

      When the going gets tough, your partner LEO “runs away to get help”? Perhaps she was looking for an American!

      And because the second officer “left”, the jihad savage just got up, climbed a fence and made his attempt to go get some MPs.

      This aspect of the incident seems to have since gone down the memory hole. I’ve seen no other reference to it. It is of course European news, even more filtered than ours.

      • Run away to get help? Did the officer forget about the radio s/he carries?

        This is beyond the pale. No one believes this (I hope).

        • It was the Beeb account, copied by Houston’s ABC13 website. It’s what it said. Crazy things get reported in same-day coverage. I hope the partner at least tried.

  7. The article title is a bit of a misnomer.

    This goes beyond a disarmed populace; this is a generally disarmed police force. From a certain viewpoint it speaks to just how paranoid national leaders are, if they don’t even trust the majority of their own law enforcement with weapons.

  8. Why don’t the Met PD quietly implement concealed carry among its officers? Even if you made it an optional qualification, a gun when you need it is always going to be more handy than a sniper on the other side of town. And what everyday Londoners cant see probably isnt going to bother them too much.

    • This is an interesting idea. US police forces often used to carry concealed firearms in their long coats (pocket revolvers and the like). I think it could work except that it’s very hard to keep a secret nowadays so there would be a backlash.

  9. What a pathetic country. And London has already elected a Moose-lim mayor. I can’t wait to see what he does-besides ‘diss Donnie Jr.?

  10. A couple of years ago acouple of Bobbys from London were on an official visit to our training facility. We did some activie shooter drills. It was the first time either of them had ever held a handgun (simunition sigs). Needless to say it didn’t go well. Asked what they would do in a real situation, they replied; call the armed police, wait outside and take statements.

  11. Even an armed populace cannot avoid surprise attacks. The best you can hope is to minimize damage after attack starts and then that will be limited because firearms proficiency without the discipline of trained tactical response can lead to friendly fire events or an ineffective and confused response. It happens to the professionals, so triple it for civilians. If even SWAT and specially trained units have problems tactically, your dream of an effective armed civilian populace deterring terrorist attacks goes up in flames due to lack of training in tactics and leadership. The problem is not simple with simplistic solutions. An armed citizen can only perform self defense of he/her-self and maybe of few other if circumstances are favorable. As usual, all that can be done is to clean up after the fact and be proactive in intelligence gathering and prevention and there is never a 100% guaranty of success. As for police departments, most officers are not skilled with firearms even in our country where firearms are the norm, if they were were, why would there be a need for special tactical units. As for the London regular patrol police, they depend more on the good will of the public and their traditional respect for authority, but that is in a perfect world that no longer exists and they are sheep for the slaughter from any determined individual. The least the the UK police could do is to become experts in Israeli martial arms, at least that will give them an edge on awareness and an aggressive mental attitude in an emergency. They should have the Royal Marines and the British SAS trained them in both martial arts and firearms. It is a new world out there and the Brits need an adjustment.

    • Even an armed populace cannot avoid surprise attacks. The best you can hope is to minimize damage after attack starts …

      Spot on.

      … and then [minimizing damage of an attack] will be limited because firearms proficiency without the discipline of trained tactical response can lead to friendly fire events or an ineffective and confused response.

      First of all, I believe that statement is wrong. Provide citations to support it. More importantly, recent attacks show us that spree killers and/or terrorists who face no armed resistance will kill several dozen people. There is no way in the world that that an “untrained” armed defender will make matters worse than if there were no armed defender at all. Even if an “untrained” armed defender manages to shoot eight people before taking down the spree killer/terrorist, that is far better than letting the spree killer/terrorist KILL several dozen people. And, you have to realize that an “untrained” armed defender who happens to shoot bystanders is not placing carefully aimed kill shots. Rather, they would be putting shots to random locations on bystanders’ bodies which are rarely fatal. Furthermore, an “untrained” armed defender neutralizes the attacker almost immediately which enables emergency medical personnel to start treating casualties MUCH sooner. That alone will save dozens of lives.

      It [friendly fire events or an ineffective and confused response] happens to the professionals, so triple it for civilians.

      I am not buying that. Please provide your authoritative (and non-biased) sources.

      • Do you also need convincing that the sun is not the center of the universe or that the world is not flat. Do your own homework and prove me wrong. Frankly I do not care. I am a retired US Army officer and retired Federal LEO with about 40+ years of shooting experience and training. Try to analyse with logic and common sense, most gun enthusiasts are incapable of doing that, albeit due to inflated egos or prejudiced minds by years of misinformation and bad propaganda. Enjoy.

        • ” retired US Army officer and retired Federal LEO with about 40+ years of shooting experience and training.”
          and this is why I don’t a shit what you think. You think that because you were a Officer and a LEO you are somehow superior to us lowly “civilians”. The I’m better and smarter because I say I am argument is crap.

        • AAR; you are the problem. You’re “special” now. After a couple decades of sycophants worshipping you as a “hero” and “thank you for your service” and buying your lunch, your ego has blinded you. You think you’ve attained some special rank in society and furthermore regular joes are incapable performing well enough to provide enough protection to make a positive difference. I pity you. You are small. You are not a citizen, which makes you suspect.

        • If you are what you say you are, you’d know full well that there are plenty of gun enthusiasts that can use their brains just fine…some of them would even be your former comrades in the military and law enforcement.
          That being said, if you are what you say you are then thank you for your service (and I’m glad you’re retired.) Truth be told I don’t think you are what you say you are. I think you’re full of sh!t.

        • Alfredo Alfonso Rodriguez,

          No, YOU do YOUR homework and YOU prove ME wrong.

          And while you are at it, please prove that a 13 year old girl without federal LEO training cannot accurately shoot full-auto machine gun … and then transition to accurately shooting — while moving no less — a shotgun and handgun:
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZE-EDGw2vo

        • Alfonso Alfredo Rodreguez,

          Try to analyse with logic and common sense, most gun enthusiasts are incapable of doing that, albeit due to inflated egos or prejudiced minds by years of misinformation and bad propaganda.

          Analyze with common sense, now that’s rich coming from you. I did analyze with common sense. I stated plainly that an “untrained” armed defender who unintentionally hits bystanders is NOT placing carefully aimed kill shots. Surely you are not claiming that is incorrect? Next, I stated that unintentional hits to bystanders which are NOT carefully aimed kill shots will strike random locations on the bystanders. Surely you are not claiming that is incorrect? Finally, I claimed that shots to random locations on a bystander’s body are rarely fatal. Remember, random locations includes feet, hands, arms, and legs as well as torso, neck, and head. Furthermore, the fatality rate of all gunshot wounds (the majority of which are intentional shots) is only around 22%. Surely you are not claiming that unintentional shots on bystanders to random body locations are going to produce a fatality rate above 22%?

          Therefore, my assertion stands: an “untrained” armed defender is not going to produce a pile of dead bystanders. And, unless you are claiming that a terrorist can ignore return fire and still kill several dozen people, my assertion stands that an “untrained” armed defender will significantly reduce the body count.

    • “If even SWAT and specially trained units have problems tactically, your dream of an effective armed civilian populace deterring terrorist attacks goes up in flames due to lack of training in tactics and leadership.”

      With the exponentially growing number of armed citizens in America coupled with an equally growing threat of armed terrorist “spree killers” it sure looks like this is a premise that is destined to be tested. It’s only a matter of time before an armed killer confronts members of an armed populace. Just who those people might be is surely open to conjecture but one thing that comes to mind is that there just might be more innate “training in tactics and leadership” than you might expect. After decades of armed conflict, the US probably has more former soldiers with combat experience than at any time in our history since WWII. You might question whether someone who hasn’t faced an armed opponent in 10-20 years has the “right stuff” to successfully dispatch an armed terrorist but, then again, he or she just might. And several of those he’s and she’s at a concert or in a movie theater might just prove to be very effective. Or, perhaps not. But what they most certainly would have is a fighting chance. And that is what the 2nd amendment is all about, it’s what having an armed populace is all about.

      We can go on and on about training but, to be brutally honest, my imagined future confrontation will most likely involve regular, not-well trained citizens who just happen to be armed and who just happen to find themselves in the unenviable position of having to defend themselves and others against a determined killer or killers. And one of those people just might be the 30 something soccer-mom who just happens to a damned good shot. Another might be the 20 something furniture salesman or car mechanic with tours in the ‘Stan. Or, again, perhaps not.

      I’m not saying that training isn’t essential or useful in real life armed-citizen confrontations but, when The Really Bad Thing is happening and there are one or more armed citizens involved “marching to the sound of the guns” may be the only viable choice you have. And, in that case, possessing a handgun, knowing how to shoot, and being willing to defend yourself and others, may be the all the skills needed to seize that fighting chance.

    • Your use of the word “dream”, as to imply we POTG fantasize over such a scenario like we would getting a little action in the sack, tells me everything I need to know about both your purpose here as well as your thoughts about people who would carry firearms for self defense…
      How much does Comerade Bloomberg pay you? I’m guessing more than the last obvious troll, though none of you has been able to write in proper paragraph form.

    • You’re an absolute La Raza FLAME DELETED. You are the one that doesn’t understand the value of private ownership of firearms nor will you until you pull your head out of your ass and read about all the successes of armed private citizens intervening in violent crime. You and your narrow-minded kind will never succeed in disarming the USA.

      • Dear GRA: La Raza comment is not only racist but it shows that people like you have no answer to any intelligent argument except being racially prejudiced, insulting, hostile and exposing your fellow citizens to Herculean Halitosis. You are like your cohort “UNCOMMON SENSE” somewhere up there in his reply to my comment. Think before you expose your brains to cold air (but that takes education and a genuine desire to study and learn with a level attitude. Many have replied and accused me of being a leftist against guns. I have a gun collection from rifle (some very expensive) and sidearms (also expensive but quality costs and I would not bet my life on cheap stuff), I also have a classic university education (classic in terms of quality and variety of subject matter, so that intimidates people who think and I too liberal to be conservative and too conservative to be liberal. The one thing that I know for sure is that an insult will not win an argument in the end because insults do not change facts. I am however, opposed to irresponsible, immature and untrained persons to own guns 2A or not. By the way, you prime example of amphibian shit, I am not Mexican, nor Chicano, I am Puerto Rican born and raised in Puerto Rico (find it on a map if you can) and educated at several universities both in Puerto Rico and Maryland. As a white Latino, I am no WASP but you can call me as a White Catholic Hispanic (now atheist) even you may not see as white, I am indeed a Caucasian from Spanish (as in Spain) ethnicity but you probably see all Hispanics as brown when in reality we come in all sizes and colors. By the way La Raza was organized by Mexican (and other Hispanics) in the South west (mostly California to protect immigrant workers, and other Latino minorities from exploitation by people like you. If racist bastards like you did not exist, there would be no reason for LA RAZA like nstitutions to exist but we do not live a perfect world and are proof of that.

        I grow tired of having to justify my self to morons extremist hicks with an outcome based high school education with nothing in their background to justify even their breathing. It is your ilk that is the problem, ignorant, racist, misinformed, intolerant and hostile with a Bible under your sweating arm pit. Some think that I regard of most of you as “lowly civilians” when in reality all that means is how they see themselves, which is probably true and it anger them.You are as bad a right wing, as left wingers are in their positions leaving no room to maneuver. Anything that contradicts your kind’s view of the world or your “white privilege” is anathema. Share this is you want or delete it, I do not care: I composed this comment to address the slew of negative responses my initial comment received, which is an interesting slice view of most of you think. Just because a majority of you have the same opinion does not make you right, just a Lemming going over a cliff.

        Now go get a dictionary so you can understand me, it is after all, proper English though I did use a simple version (as in English for Dummies) for you and your friends. Do not worry, I will not address this subject again, lest your racist brain explode. Enjoy the mental masturbation of your so called “convictions” before you go over the cliff.

        • NOPE … I’m spot-on with my reference to you. You’re not the only one in here that has spent time in the US military and federal law enforcement. I know your mentality all too well. Best place for you (and WE THE PEOPLE) is to stay out of federal service all together and by all means stay on the rock where you damn well belong. You’ve got more in common with the stubborn, apathetic, and ignorant insecure Brits that you do with mainstream Americans.

          You’re wrong with everything you said regarding armed US citizens and their ability to provide for their own safety and security. Non-military and non-LEO armed private citizens are fully capable of organizing and repelling foreign invasions. It doesn’t take that much when folks apply themselves and with your claimed education and experience you of all people should know this. You are the one that should be volunteering to organize and mobilize them. By your statements here I see you run contrary to such a level of professionalism. Maybe you’ll be a hero on your rock someday … but you sure wont last long anywhere else.

          I am an Oath Keeper and I fully support Constitutional carry for everyone. I feel the Brits should have that too and obviously they need it now more than ever. What WE THE PEOPLE, and the Brits, don’t need at all at any time is your narrow-minded ignorance and insecurity, which also burdens the Brits and other like-minded Euros. I will state however that since I’ve noticed how your attitude and demeanor seems to have permeated all rank structures in our national and local military commands I’ll be the first to state that I trust the common citizen militias a hell of a lot more these days than some of you alleged professional clowns.

        • Accuses others of being racist but rants overtime to point out that he’s white of spanish descent. The islands and all of south America are racist as hell and the darker and more indian you look, the lower on the food chain you are.

    • Armed citizens do a pretty good job of defending themselves and do less harm to innocent bystanders than LEOs. Granted the he/she has more information about what is going on at the scene than a late arriving officer. It is a great unknown how an armed citizen would perform in a terrorist attack but to dismiss us out of hand is mere prejudice. The greatest threat to the armed defender at a spree shooting is the late arriving police officer who sees someone with a gun and shoots him.

    • They were probably the ones that arrived very quickly and killed the bad guy.

      So he ‘only’ killed 4 instead of… whatever. And to be honest, only ONE of those deaths would have likely been preventable through arming police.

      But for the family of that one (the unarmed police officer) that’s likely cold comfort.

  14. I know people in London. They don’t care. I’m serious. They think America is insane because we have guns.

    • My brother lived in Newcastle upon Thames for years. And in continental Europe. He’s completely and totally a leftard in his outlook…and it’s pretty funny hearing him rant from Florida in retirement. Yeah-the Gunshine State…?

    • I don’t doubt this one bit. I think it may be one of the cultural distinctions between our otherwise similar peoples. At Concord Bridge, the British commanders were dumbfounded to find that they were being opposed by a militia made up of armed private citizens. The disbelief and then moral indignation over being fought by armed private citizens was constant feature of relations between the British military and colonial citizens throughout the Revolutionary War.

      • ” At Concord Bridge, the British commanders were dumbfounded to find that they were being opposed by a militia made up of armed private citizens.”

        To say nothing of the particular ‘style’ of combat the colonialists used:

        “In their accounts afterward, British officers and soldiers alike noted their frustration that the colonial militiamen fired at them from behind trees and stone walls, rather than confronting them in large, linear formations in the style of European warfare.”

        “Reflecting on the British experience that day, Earl Percy understood the significance of the American tactics:

        During the whole affair the Rebels attacked us in a very scattered, irregular manner, but with perseverance & resolution, nor did they ever dare to form into any regular body. Indeed, they knew too well what was proper, to do so. Whoever looks upon them as an irregular mob, will find himself much mistaken. They have men amongst them who know very well what they are about, having been employed as Rangers against the Indians & Canadians, & this country being much covered with wood, and hilly, is very advantageous for their method of fighting.”

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Lexington_and_Concord#Return_march

        “Asymmetric warfare”. The ‘git-‘r-done’ combat style of successful insurgents *everywhere*… 🙂

        • And of course the colonial milita had long rifles which could deliver head shots at 300 yards where the British “Brown Bess” smooth bore musket was accurate to, oh, maybe 60 yards.

    • I agree. They think we Americans are the world’s “barbarians”. You should’ve been around back in the 80(s) when I was over in Europe and sen all the arguments I had with these people. Back then I told them their day was coming. Obviously I was right and for them this realization os much too late. I have no sympathy for them as they don’t even want to think about changing.

  15. I will not vote for one US cent to go to helping the Brits until they are afforded the rights to keep and bear arms as provided by the 2nd. Amendment of our Constitution.

  16. Their ignorance and/or dishonesty about firearms in general is why anti gun liberals trot out the asinine argument that a prerequisite for defensive firearm use is a high level skill set possessed by an elite few crack shot tacticians.

    It’s similar to bull$#it often heard from cop haters who expect or demand that all law enforcement officers possess world class marksmanship capabilities.

    Just like members of the public who receive some level of firearms training, law enforcement has a certain percentage of officers who are highly proficient with firearms and a usually larger percentage with average or adequate proficiency.

    Point being a LEO doesn’t have to be a crack shot to use a handgun as a tool to stop a deadly close quarter attack, neither does a civilian.

    The fact that the officer in London was unarmed made it easier for the radical Islamic devil to stab him to death, the officer would have likely survived had he been armed with a handgun. Similarly, it’s easier for criminal predators to kill thousands of unarmed victims in anti gun strongholds like Chicago who might be alive today had a firearm for self defense been available to them.

  17. UK’ers hate guns, after all. Would UK cops be willing to carry proper British backswords or the like instead? At least that’d better equip them for knife fights.

  18. I don’t appreciate when foreigners tell us we should ban guns and how our laws should be, so I’ll extend Britain the same courtesy. They don’t have a gun culture and apparently they don’t want one, and since they have less than 100 gun murders per year compared to our 8000, and no one in the past 1000 years, from the vikings to the nazis to the jihadists, have been able to overthrow their government, maybe we should let them run their own country and we can worry about ours.

  19. http://www.storyleak.com/fact-even-gandhi-opposed-gun-bans/

    “Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest.”

    I found Mohandas Gandhi autobiography in the university library in here in Kentucky and read these words myself. There is an NRA type organization in India fighting to correct what the British started in disarming the civilian population. When English politicians start getting killed only then will things change in the UK. Perhaps they will ask america for free guns as they did in world war two.

  20. Plenty of Brit bashing here, I am sure we all expected that.
    The entire situation, from the Terrorist crashing the car to being killed lasted 82 seconds. How long did it take for the SWAT team to enter and deal with the Pulse nightclub shooter?
    Most of the armed police in The UK are ex military.
    I have trained people to shoot, I would much prefer to teach someone with no experience than a mix bag that has idiots that “know everything” and has bad habits.
    The CTSFO, the guys in grey uniforms with The SIG rifles are highly trained. On par with any Police SWAT type unit in the world. The London Police also has SAS personnel on “attachment”, and they are on call to deal with incidents 24/7.
    Last week Bill Clinton was in The UK, attending the funeral of an IRA terrorist!!!!!

    • Plenty of Brit bashing here, I am sure we all expected that.

      Often in good taste (more or less). Most of us here in the colonies only get our backs up when Brits try to tell us we should disarm like they have.

      Last week Bill Clinton was in The UK, attending the funeral of an IRA terrorist!!!!!

      Terrorists have friends, too.

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