“I think that women in general don’t want to take higher level courses because they live in denial that crime could happen to them or one of their loved ones. If it does happen to touch them that there will be someone there to protect them and that they aren’t capable or shouldn’t take that role upon themselves. The image that many women in our country have of themselves is that they should be the “beautiful one” not the protector. That role belongs to the man. Women are told by the media that they should be concerned about things like clothes, hair, makeup etc.. In generally, they do not understand they need to learn the skills to be able to protect themselves and their loved ones. They expect their “knight in shining armor” to do that for them.” – Mrs. Groundhog as quoted by Hsoi [h/t Tyler Kee]
Although it’s not a request for a caption, let me try one out here. That picture is a classic !
“Was that as good for you as it was for me?”
+1000 :).
J.
I believe you could substitute “carry a weapon” for “take higher level courses” in the first sentence and it would be just as accurate if not even more so.
I have two female family members who believe they are completely immune from violent crime.
I know what you mean. My gf will keep her .38 in the car at all times, but refuses to get a permit, just in case she wants to go in a gas station or something. Infuriates me to no end. To make things worse, every time we leave the house, she taps my hip on the way out, just to make sure I’ve got mine.
A question for your gf.
Tom Givens of Rangemaster has I believe now 60 students that have been involved in self-defense incidents. The majority of those were when people were in process of going to or coming from their car (e.g. leaving car in parking garage, going to store; or leaving store, going to car). If the gun is in the car, what good will it do when you’re attacked away from the car?
I do understand the mindset of your gf — seen it lots. You can’t necessarily make her overcome it… you can only present her facts and realities and hopes she is able to convince herself to improve her approach.
She’s softening up. But, she can’t at work, she carries a tazer, and I think she can get an escort at night. Like I said, it’s an improvement. She used to notice my pistol and be disgusted that I had it. Work in progress.
Well, it sounds like she’s doing what she can within her circumstances. So like you said, progress. 🙂
Women act that way because they are women, not warriors. It’s a movie myth that women are rough and tough and can duke it out with burly men. They can’t. Women want and need to be defended. That’s what men are for.
I agree with Skyler to an extent. You are 100% correct concerning the movie myth, it is physically improbable for a 120 pound woman to duke it out with men. Firearms coupled with a tactical/aware mindset would do wonders for most women in this situation though.
Tell that to Ronda Rousey….I know…the exception, not the rule.
Absolutely true. Still, I’m glad my wife has finally gotten to the point where when I can’t be there, Smith & Wesson are when it’s legal.
Yea….I know some women who would love to prove you wrong and give you a few broken bones. 🙂
As has been stated before, being a sexist SOB doesn’t help inspire women to be pro-gun.
“… women… live in denial that crime could happen to them… are told by the media that they should be concerned about things like clothes, hair, makeup etc.. ”
“The media” is run by criminals intent on maintaining the supply of helpless victims?
Only criminals in the sense that “the media” is more interested in promoting celebrity gossip, shallow interpretations of current events, and mindless commercialism buy MORE (clothes / lipstick / purses) etc. Madison Ave wants to make its money money money.
For the record, the quote is incorrectly attributed. Hsoi didn’t say that, he was reprinting someone else’s comments, as it says in the linked post.
True. Fixed. Thanks.
Correct. This was a reprint (with her permission) of an excerpt from a discussion I was having with one of our (KR Training) students about why women tend to shy away from more advanced training, more “hands on” training (like force-on-force). She was just kind enough to let me share her words on a more public forum.
Women have always been portrayed as the weaker sex throughout history. Although of you look around there are literally thousands of cases where women have been attacked, or their child attacked and God help the person who was attacking.
Women, when cornered or threatened can be as mean and deadly as a viper or cobra. My girlfriend, her daughter and I shoot all the time, and although she is a great shot with both rifle and pistol I can’t talk her into getting her ccw license. She says she wants to be more proficient before she does the quals.
Nice Bren gun too!
“Women want and need to be defended. That’s what men are for.”
— I’m no longer a government pawn to be used and discarded as cannon-fodder (allegedly to defend ‘America the pure’ ie the women) in yet another USG war (that profits the elites of society) nor a white knight riding to defend modern American women most of whom voted against my liberties and rights. The question for me is; ‘does a particular woman (or girl) deserve risking my safety to defend her?’ Men are increasingly removing the burden of chivalry from their shoulders in a modern society that increasingly does not appreciate men and treats men as disposable commodities.
Interesting you said this. A friend of mine was on a first date with a guy she knew for 5+ years. They were robbed (no weapon display) by two men. Her date (tall muscular guy) ran away and left her. She gave up her purse then tried chasing the two guys that robbed her for a couple blocks before giving up. Completely unacceptable.
I do agree, the end all question is does this particular woman/girl merit me laying down my life for her.
Whether or not the woman is deserving of your protection isn’t the issue. The day you give away your manhood by failing to aid those weaker than you is the day you become just another neutered male.
unf plenty of those now…
Agreed. Why else do strangers come to the aid of victims? I’d like to believe most of us are born with that calling to do what’s right.
In theory I think that good people should go to the aid of those in need who are being attacked. However, imo it is often not that black and white. At least not in modern western society where people practice a huge long spectrum of different lifestyles along with different ethics, morals, values, etc. American laws, common-sense, and the justice in the courts are increasing inverted and full of double-standards. American women are increasingly supportive of a society and government that is increasingly treating me as a human ATM, disposable commodity, and is taking away my liberties and rights. There may not be a formal ‘Bachelor Tax’ as existed in ancient Rome yet in America there is an indirect or hidden ‘Man Tax’ with how government programs, policies, laws, services, etc are clearly biased in favor of women against men.
If some woman (who imagines herself above being struck by a man) starts bad mouthing some guy on the street who turns around and starts beating on her should another man simply rush in to her rescue and possibly face his own beating, a knife to the gut, or bullet to the head?
jwm,
Who is the authority to define what manhood is all about: is it government, religious institutional leadership, Hollywood, mass media, the public schools system, etc? If you define for yourself that your role as a man and manhood is best defined as being a protector (and the usual provider stuff, etc) then that is right for you. Don’t tell other men what they supposed to believe and how to behave.
If you or another man chooses to sacrifice your life for those you consider worthy and/or are weaker than you don’t still demand of other men that they jump off the bridge with you. If you choose to sacrifice your life for some modern entitled American womyn (whether you know her or not) who unintentionally or stupidly puts herself in danger then you go right ahead and make the sacrifice.
So you’ve never broken up a fight, stopped a bully from picking on someone or intervened in a crime? How about leaving the your name or the license plate # for the victim of a hit and run fender bender? It’s all the same mentality (varing degrees of risk but all have some). How about the receiving end? Ever have a stranger help you out of a tough situation for no other reason than because they thought it was the right thing to do?
barnslayer,
If someone is trying to harm the fourteen year old neighbor girl who lives across the street I’d probably intervene except if I sense a real risk of danger to myself. I’d at least somewhat risk helping her because I know her to be a great person. Otherwise, I’d reach for my cell phone to call the police.
It’s all ‘varying degrees of risk’ as you put it and as I’ll put it based on context too. Initially, this discussion was about men’s role or duty being to protect women. Men are no less special and deserving of the same degree of protection or a helping hand than women. Feminists and government along with modern womyn have broken the social contract between men and women.
I’m neither an alpha, beta, or omega male. I’ve chosen to live as a Zeta male as increasing numbers of other men are doing too. If you don’t know what that is you can learn about it here:
http://www.avoiceformen.com/men/mens-issues/so-what-the-fuck-is-a-zeta-male-anyway/
Aharon, the authority that defined my concept of manhood was my father, my grandfathers and my uncles. They, and I, would not cross examine a woman or weaker person that was in trouble to see if they were worthy of saving.
People can come up with all sorts of excuses, and that’s what they are, excuses for not doing what’s right.
If doing the right thing entails risk, then so be it. I’ve risked my life for less worthy causes in the past.
Aharon, have to disagree with ya bud not judging , simply .an .02 and facts.
Women , represent just over 11% of the industry according to background checks or form 4473 . However they represent a 40 to 50 % increase vs prior year sales , interestingly are leading the industry in new shooters and training .
Zeta , that’s a new one , kinda like Emo ? So if I’m walking into walmart in Texas , look over and three dudes are about to change your day , your head is down as situational awarenesv ( whats that ? ) is nil . Should some of the population that still believes in protecting the sheep or maybe just the right action to take stand by and watch . He’ll , we all know the answer . In Texas you’d have a much better odds of someone having your six . That would be those Alpha’s to the rescue .
Men’ s role as to be the sole savior and protector of women . Naw in reality it’s 9 out of ten men whom abuse their wife’s /girlfriends , either mentally or physically . Make you a bet not even knowing your training or skill with a pistol. As a trained professional combat/ defensive or little Johhnys first deer rifle weapons instructor . Pick out any random woman that’s never fired a weapon in her life and a day and she will not only be able to accurately outshoot you from concealment , low ready or moving to make a snap judgement on threats or Zetas and with daily drills and weekly regimented range time will under stress clear hard/ soft malfunctions all types reloads , both support and strong side and be able to react to a threat and eliminate or not within 2 seconds . I’d rather work with a woman every time as theres not a set of balls there or not , usually shes divorced or just does not want to rely on anyone . Women listen better 70 % are more coordinated than dudes , emotionally if protecting their children GTFB .
Should women be accepted and serve as tier one or SF operators no …..omly a select few men can achieve this .
Us Americans really don’t have a concept of oh let’s for grins , be a farmer in Syria right this second or basically any UDC were death is a everyday deal .
Heck we treat or troops without respect , the west and east regions of the country especially say Boston , forbid if I even say thanks . I’d put my life on the line for others . The bully at school taking your lunch or an obvious situation that’s right or wrong it comes down to or the difference that sets us all apart , how far are you willing to go?.
Aharon , if our country collapses and it’s a free for all I’m willing to bet the trained Alphas unfortunately will be taking yuur lunch money and don’t believe you’ll have any options .
Skip
Skip,
Thanks for your reply. We can agree to disagree. You wrote much and I am kinda gone beyond this post. A Zeta is not a passive lowered head sheeple type omega dude. A Zeta does not follow orders or the codes and values of society unless he is agreement with them. I find most modern era womyn fairly low on my rate sheet. If I had to choose between rescuing you (who I don’t know) and some woman trapped in a burning car I would probably pull you out of it. I suspect that most men have no idea how so many American women have been socially conditioned to viewing men as the enemy.
You wrote: “in reality it’s 9 out of ten men whom abuse their wife’s /girlfriends , either mentally or physically”. Man, that is so wrong. Prior to the latest re-defining of domestic abuse the USG Center for Disease Control found women (in hetero relations) to have initiated 50-70% of the attacks in a one-way DV fight when the second person does not strike back. Among lesbians one in three couples encounter DV. Among gay men the number is one in four. BTW, among heteros about 15-20% of couples have some DV going on.
You made a lot of assumptions about me. You know nothing of my civilian or military training. What I have done or not done. I think you’re the one who is doing most of the underestimating.
All I can think about is how much I want that Bren Gun.
Bull.
Its my estimation that even the uninitiated females understand the point of self defense. When I explain that I carry a pistol for personal defense their response is something along the lines of “that’s OK, you have to be safe these days”-even if she’s a gun control supporter. Odd , that, but its what ive experienced.
As to this…
……..”I think that women in general don’t want to take higher level courses because they live in denial that crime could happen to them or one of their loved ones.”……
I think what we have here is a training problem, not a gender issue. People male and female scoff at professional training because they have the wrong idea on how firearms work. Most people buy a gun, stick it on the nightstand/gun safe/ security box, and leave things at that. How Difficult Can It Be to Pull a Trigger, they think.
It’s not difficult. That is the beauty of firearms.
You can always do more. But the basics really are that easy.
Agreed with the “how hard can it be to pull a trigger comment”.That being said, i have been in classes (we won’t even go into general public shooting ranges) where women are completely marginalized. That does not lead to them wanting additional future training after a couple of times.
But that is precisely the problem — how to get women to take higher level training courses. Yes it happens with men as well, but in my years of teaching and thousands of students passing through the doors, I have noticed men being more open to training like force-on-force and women not so much. Why? Again, I have my theories, but I like to ask as many women as I can for their thoughts on the matter.
I will agree that people don’t know what they don’t know… they will buy the gun, stick it in the drawer, and expect the talsiman will magically ward evil when the time comes. They don’t realize nor expect they need training and education. They don’t realize that shooting a gun under intense pressure is a lot different than leisurely plinking cans off a fencepost. It doesn’t take years and years to get you there (I think about one student of Tom Givens’ that just took the level 1 course and was able to successfully defend herself during a robbery attempt), but you do need to know what you need to know… and of course, people don’t know what they don’t know nor know they need to know it.
So how to overcome that? How to get more people to realize they need and seek out training, and training beyond the basics? how to get more people to see the value of force-on-force training, without being scared off by the name?
Offer them a 30 minute Force on Force demo. If they catch what you are trying to teach them then great. If not take the time to show them what can happen and how quickly it does happen.
My GF does realize that the world is a bad place and really worries about the safety of her and her 11 yr old daughter. And we live in a community of less than 700 people.
That being said the daughter is a heck of a shot with her .22lr and my .22mag revolver and my .25auto Mauser pistol.
Just having a hard time convincing GF to take ccw class for license and then do a local FonF class here taught by the Swat Team members.
A demo is a reasonable idea… how to get them to see it tho, and also not be scared off by it. I think about something like a YouTube video as a way to “get the message out there”, but then it’s a balance between “tl;dr” (or I guess “dw – didn’t watch”) yet still trying to convey enough of the message to 1. show what it is, 2. show why it’s important, 3. convince them to seek such training, 4. not be scared off by it… because a lot of people watch YouTube videos of SouthNarc’s ECQC and get scared. 🙂
I guess what I need is a good marketing person, and perhaps a good screenwriter. 🙂
Thanx tho. You’ve given me something to think about.
You are welcome. One thing I learned while overseas and stateside in the Army was about “Word of Mouth” advertising. 3 of the 5 yrs i spent in W.Germany were apprenticing in a Tattoo Shop, and 2 more yrs in one of the top shops in Texas.
Word of mouth brought in more business and eventually more regular customers and consistent income than any other form of adverts. Of course in the 80’s and early 90’s there wasn’t a vast proliferation of Internet video like there is now.
That being said an idea might be to offer x amount of women a Womens Only Force on Force Class for free. Say a 30 minute course. Make it free on the condition that they agree to the use of their name/likeness in the video and/or paper adverts.
Not a guarantee to draw more women in but might be worth a shot. Or if a woman signs up for the class and brings another woman with her to take the class they both get say a 10 or 15% discount right then on that class.
Just some ideas from prior experience. Hope you can ge the word out though. With more and more single women/mom’s around and the increases in home invasions,etc they really do need to know how to defend themselves.
Some good ideas. Thank you!
You are welcome!! I hope the ideas help. The more we can get on board/ convert the more we can be assured on a safer environment for them and their children and families.
If you need any more ideas or help just holler!!
Good Luck!!!
Easy , education , awareness . As a instructor you should have this one down …force on force is even an easier concept / class to sell or have students transition to .
Elevate or seperate your training facility / shop from all others . Post feedback from students , dont settle for the industry’s current growth numbers strive to double that .
Be flexible maybe take the top ten instructors and or facilities and mold from each what will work best for your market and needs
While it is true that a shocking number of people firmly believe the ycan “never” be a victim of any kind of crime, it’s not limited to one sex or the other IME. Of course, historically the roles are man = warrior, woman = weaker sex in need of constant protection. Too bad attitudes aren’t progressing.
Agree with the main points of the article. Disagree with the “women need to be protected, that’s what men are for” point of view. Humans are primates. I am not aware of any primate species whose female members are helpless. Now, our culture has certainly created some vapid and helpless females (my mind tries to protect itself but in the end cannot stop recalling the video posted here not long ago of some empty-headed twit female condemning one of the Kardashians for going to a gun range, because that meant she was not a “girly-girl,” whatever the F that means), but that can and should be overcome. Adults decide to protect themselves, regardless of gender or circumstance.
I didn’t mean to imply that women are helpless. I meant that they aren’t generally inclined to be interested in such things. It’s biology. Some are, but they are rare.
#1 BRENS are very heavy and non-ergonomic, I know I carried one in Italy 9 years ago as part of a re-enactment.
#2 My 87 pound wife did not carry a gun, she carried a straight razor, though a petite Barby Type she posessed a switch, that when flipped, engaged her beast mode, which is why she is my ex-wife.
No comments regarding your ex.
Bren guns, as well as the BAR are a nostalgic thing of beauty. Sure you can find a composite stocked modern weapon that is not only lighter but better. By that standard a $20 Timex is better than a pricey vintage Swiss watch. But which do we drool over?
Bren and Beuty are two words that are hard to co-mingle in the same sentance
There’s all sorts of beauty. That’s why some people own Bulldogs.
I didn’t own a gun until I was sure that I could pull the trigger if I needed to. Many women doubt that they could pull the trigger. Yes, there’s probably a certain amount of denial involved, but not so much denial that they could ever be a crime victim, as denial that they would ever really be in a kill or be killed situation. Someone will be there to help them, the police will show up, the bad guy will just take her purse and leave, etc.
I’ve heard many woman say that they wouldn’t be able to live with themselves if they ever took another person’s life. That makes it hard to even own a gun, much less actually train for the kill or be killed situation. hsoi, that would make the “show why it’s important” part crucial to getting more women to sign up.
Likewise, if you can get more women to reach the state of mind where they are confident that they could pull the trigger, then more might sign up for advanced classes. This is off the top of my head, but I think that if you could get the women to answer to themselves the question, “How far am I willing to go to protect my children, myself, or other loved ones?” you’ll be half way there. The other half is making them face the fact that there are evil people out there with no compassion and no mercy.
Thank you for your input.
The interesting part is most of the women I speak with, when asked that question of how far they’d be willing to go, are willing to go pretty far (most bring up the “momma bear” metaphor). But yet for some reason, many cannot bridge the gap between that willingness (and admission of their willingness) to then doing what it takes to get be able to get to that point. I think in large part it is a matter of coming to terms with the fact you might take the life of another. Maybe that comes from the womanly “mother/nurturing” role, more of one to work to preserve life than take life… but then, you point out to them things like how you’d be working to preserve YOUR life or your childrens’ lives, and you see the gears in their heads turn, and the quandary continue.
So… I’m still not sure of the answer, but still seeking. The thing is, I don’t know if there is a single or generalized answer to the question. Most of the time I have to engage folks on an individual basis, addressing their individual concerns or reservations. While I don’t mind doing that, sometimes it’s useful if you can cast a wider net, y’know?
Anyways, all this input has been good and useful. Gives me much to think on. Thank you all.
Women are told by the media that life is a never ending train ride of consumerism, hot guys, parties, and eventually a middle-management job with a salary augmented by alimony. Maybe even a daughter (really a human pet) to care for on weekdays.
Women on average are less violent, have less muscle mass, and have lower incarceration rates. So saying that “woman X can beat you up” proves absolutely nothing. They are the more passive sex.
So by all means arm them. But ironically more women desire firearms because of feminism’s unintended consequences. More broken homes translates into more kids with nowhere to turn except crime. Chanting “we’re all equal” is like telling your fat son that size 30 jeans will fit him. Free and easy birth-control facilitates polyandry. Polyandry shafts (best pun ever) beta-providers that civilization needs.
Let’s wrap it up (yay a condom pun!). Women screw men with the legal system. Children suffer more from cheating mommy and porn-addicted daddy. Said children have increasingly crappier odds at dealing with modern bourgeois America and turn to crime. Now women want a Colt for self-defense.
I don’t believe in collective guilt. Certain women benefit from rotating polyandry as do certain men. But by and large the system works against most normal men and women. Let’s bury the hatchet…and go buy a Glock!
#1 That was great.
You wrote: “So by all means arm them.” Careful what you wish for. Women have historically been less violent than men for three reasons; 1) social upbringing, 2) less willingness to risk physical harm to self and 3) less physical strength. Women are now increasing buying into the indoctrination that they can confront men, be as strong as men etc, and partially since the police and laws usually backs women and not men they can get away with being the aggressor. Women are also increasingly unconcerned with physically hurting others. In London, 25%+ of street attacks are now committed by young women. A woman is more prone than a man to react and over-react to her feelings “feelings equal truth and facts and if it feels good then do it, etc”. Arming modern American womyn enmass may not be such a good idea since they are not used to being held accountable for their actions.
Women need guns to protect themselves from the consequences of the sexual revolution. Put that in your Jezebel magazine and smoke it.
Ha! I’m glad that you see through the smoke and mirrors. The sexual liberation movement and women’s movement now feminism third wave or so has brought many ‘unintended consequences’.
The men’s sites that I go to occasionally mention the latest loonie posts and comments at Jezebel. Unlike the men’s sites that allow opposing political views to be made in the comment’s sections the feminists sites are intolerant of opposing views and delete them. Hypothetically, an all-out matriarchal feminist dominated political system would be highly authoritarian to understate it. If it ever occurs (unlikely society will collapse along the way) you can count on being put into a re-education center, forced to take mood altering drugs, and getting a forced surgery or two.
my sister doesn’t mind me carrying, even on the rare occasion that i choose to OC, but she flat out refuses to learn to use or carry a gun or buy one. the best i remember she has been shooting twice, but beyond that she’s very stubborn in her dislike of the thought of herself with a gun.
i keep telling her that i can’t always be there to protect her, and she replies that God will. but He doesn’t always intervene on behalf of His children, even when six million of them were being rounded up and sent to death camps.
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