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“Americans enjoy gathering by hundreds or thousands—sometimes tens of thousands—to watch our kids’ high school football games, athletes play sports, musicians perform or even monster trucks roar and jump. These are presented at arenas and stadiums that can be found in every county and city all over this country. Something terrorists call ‘soft targets.’ The Police Sniper Response to a Public Venue course sponsored by the TTPOA [Texas Tactical Police Officer Association] provides the country’s best police precision rifle shooters, the cream of the S.W.A.T. sniper crop, the training and practice to plan and provide protection if someone in the crowd decides to go berserk, fulfill a violent plan or enact a terrorist plot. This course ensures that trained law enforcement and special-operation shooters can be deployed, without any fanfare and generally unseen, with the ability to observe and, if necessary, intervene with surgical precision to stop the threat.” – Andre M. Dall’au, Stadium Threat Defense, tactical-life.com
Even if this is the best training in the world, and even if the “best of the best” can get even better, there will never be enough truly qualified anti-terrorist snipers to cover every athletic stadium, concert hall, political gathering, college graduation, parade, etc in the country on any given day. So Please forgive me if I don’t relax into condition white when I’m out and about because I’ll always remember learning this from this site, “When seconds count, the police are minutes away.”
“every athletic stadium, concert hall, political gathering, college graduation, parade, etc” Please we all know this will only be used for the rich and upity people IE tax dollars at work protecting the rich and beating the poor.
I’m relieved to see TTAG readers disapprove of this pure ridiculousness.
If the stadium sniper was going to shoot the bad guy BEFORE bad shit went down, the Eagle’s Nest approach might have some value. In the middle of an incident, where THOUSANDS of people are running around in a panic, the best way to eliminate the threat is up close and personal.
Surgical precision my ass.
And how come the antis can raise the alarm about the possibility of concealed carriers going wild and we shouldn’t worry about a police stadium sniper deciding to pull the trigger on a civilian? Or two. Or three. Who’s ready to take out the guy ready to take out the terrorist?
“deciding to pull the trigger on a civilian” RF? From all the IGOTD posts i’ve seen here, i know there have been at least a few which were cops and NDs, even when cleaning a supposedly unloaded weapon. What is even worse is that getting shot with a 9 or a 40 is one thing, getting hit with 168+gr 7.62 is another.
I hope those dudes are never deployed at the Westminster Kennel Club show, given their record with household pets and all. I can see the headline now: “Snipers Kill 300 Show Dogs — Police Spokesman Says The Officers Felt Threatened.”
“Reports that some of the breeds had ‘no sporting purpose’ could not be confirmed.”
I love you guys.
Who needs a sniper when an armed citizen could just run up and shoot the guy in the back?
What a waste of money.
Damn right. Complete waste of money and resources. I would feel a lot safer if they would just let me carry my own gun into these events.
OK, I’m gonna make this easy: The guy that bought the two seats next to me and consumes nothing but beans and bear is gonna have an international orange square on his back by half-time, just below the collar. Just don’t hit me by mistake, OK?
Yeah, I just hate those bear eaters.
Christ almighty, bring back the Edit button already!
Hang in there! By Monday, latest.
Really, without the Edit button this bit is unbeerable.
From a technical POV, is there any chance of a rifle bullet NOT over-penetrating and causing collateral damage in a crowded venue like that? Unless they are using .22LR.
frangible ammo? but then again those rounds are ridiculously lightweight and would be pushed around by the wind a lot more.
Maybe frangible rounds?
At long ranges, probably not. At short ranges (say, 250 yards and under), possibly.
Frangible rounds, (eg, varmint bullets) explode quickly in the first couple inches of tissue penetration because the are thin-skinned as well as have a low(er) sectional density (ie, they’re light and short). As a result, frangible rounds have low Bc’s, which means that they will experience more drop and wind drift, as well as lose velocity faster than low-drag bullets.
If you want a bullet to have a high ballistic coefficient, it necessarily becomes longer and heavier, has higher sectional density and therefore will penetrate more deeply. A high powered rifle bullet with low drag would probably be able to shoot four adults through-and-through at the very least.
If we’re talking of 600+ yard shots and they’re using VLD rounds, there’s likely going to be quite a bit of penetration.
Non-serious first. I’d say the guy manning the t-shirt cannon had better be wearing body armor anytime these “overwatch snipers” are deployed.
Now serious: is it really likely that a terrorist will flail around with an AK or handgun in such a concentrated target area? It seems to me that an airborne pathogen or poison or dirty backpack bomb or even a vehicle bomb would be more likely from a terrorist. It also seems to me that we are always preparing either for the wrong things or yesterday’s threats.
Supposing they get the high ground as well, An AK auto would cause a lot of damage. Do not underestimate these peoples will to kill, or their cunning. A suicide vest, possible, they are allowed in anywhere clothed from head to toe, but you try walking into walmart with a long black coat on and a ski mask over your face. Yesterday, or tomorrow, simple works.
I wonder why they don’t show us what their targets look like, or what their hit ratio is? Also why are the cops allowed to shoot from giant tripods, with some sort of pneumatic cylinder, yet they arent made to carry them/set them up? That tripod has to weigh a fucking ton, and fatigue them far more than the rifle would. I wish I was allowed to cut corners like that whenever my performance is evaluated at work.
I wonder why they don’t show us what their targets look like, or what their hit ratio is? Also why are the cops allowed to shoot from giant tripods, with some sort of pneumatic cylinder, yet they arent made to carry them/set them up? That tripod has to weigh a ton, and fatigue them far more than the rifle would. I wish I was allowed to cut corners like that whenever my performance is evaluated at work.
First off the idea someone is staring at me through a scope with their finger most likely on the trigger scares the shit out off me. Second what about the four rules numbnuts? Oh wait they’re cops. Rules and laws don’t apply.
It gets better: They just hired Lon Horiuchi.
I curse that guy every time I see his name.
This sounds like the beginning of the very good book “enemies foreign and domestic”. These guys protect against the shooter, not the panic. Imagine 50,000 people deciding they need to be someplace else right now.
Supposing they get the high ground as well, An AK auto would cause a lot of damage. Do not underestimate these people’s will to kill, or their cunning. A suicide vest, possible, they are allowed in anywhere clothed from head to toe, but you try walking into walmart with a long black coat on and a ski mask over your face. Yesterday, or tomorrow, simple works.
Does not matter, once SHTF, everybody is going to want to be somewhere else.
Another attempt to create or expand a program with vastly increased tax payer dollars and to fan the flames of fear so to promote the ever growing police state in America.
In a packed stadium or other big event crowd I think a suicide bomber or two would probably be more effective than a suicide shooter. Oh no, here come those favoring installing those bomb screening x-ray machines and bomb sniffer dogs at every entrance to every event of 100+ attendees in America. It will only cost the American people $_______.
What was up with the helicopter, the dramatic armored truck, the run up the stairs, etc? Shouldn’t these guys be on station before the SHTF? That was one of the dumber videos I have ever seen
set $minutes = “long ass deployment time”
print “When seconds count, the police are only {$minutes} away.”
Since I don’t know which language you wrote that in I came up with I think a slightly better one in PHP as I use a constant instead of a variable.
define(“minutes”, “slower than molasses in January deployment time”);
print “When seconds count, the police are only “. minutes .” away.”;
A much more likelyAl-qaeda type terrorist scenario against a large event stadium: Terrorists set up and fire a four duece mortar (or similar indirect fire weapon system – rockets etc) at the spectator seating area of a stadium during a large capacity-filled event. Panic ensues, and victims stream towards the exits. Terrorists pre-position VBIEDs as close to exit points as possible, and deploy them when parking lot becomes sufficiently conjested. This is very difficult scenario to defend against.
Joe, that doesn’t sound any worse than a typical Eagles-Giants game.
Personally I’m way more afraid of the police then terrorism.
1) Firing into a crowd is never surgical. It is a slightly more accurate version of a hand grenade. A bunch of people are going to die, maybe one of the bad guys.
2) Running it up the flag pole makes said snipers pretty easy targets. There are only so many hides in the rafters at a given venue. Can’t imagine it would be that hard to find out where they are if you’re a bad guy.
I don’t need police protection against terrorism. As recent aircraft hijacking attempts have proven, the public at large is plenty willing and able to deal with such threats, even when unarmed.
We paid a heavy effing price for that ability a decade and change ago. Whitling away at it with cop theatre is stupid.
Just watch where the Dunkin’ Donut delivery guy goes and you’ve got them made.
This is just like the TSA: More security theatre, designed to reassure the sheep-like voters (especially those who love government running everything in their lives) that the political class and their minions in the public employee unions are “doing something.”
As has become absurdly apparent to all thinking people, these “public servants” are worse than useless. These idiots are expensive, whiney, self-righteous and unaccountable when (not if) they screw up. Just fire the lot of them and deal with the risks ourselves. Real life is lived by those who have the balls to live in the real world. There is not, has not ever been and will never be any such thing as “perfect safety.”
And Ralph’s comment about the Westminster Kennel Club: Spot-on.
All stuff I could do, and probably plenty off other TTAG shooters could as well.
I will dissent, however and say that police snipers are usually a good thing. I’d rather have some trained “good guys” in that stadium with me than watch a game in a “gun free” zone (which is the ultimate target – rich zone for a psychopath). If I’m standing next to a nutcase the next time in Lambeau field, I’d rather have a .308 enroute from a precision rifle than a handgun round from the 5-0 that managed to pull stadium duty. Obviously I would want one of my .40 cal pistols with me as well.
Swat Sniper schools are challenging. The training varies, of course, but mine involved fire and movement, coordinated fire “missions”, scenarios, improvised shooting positions, etc. Shooting 240+ rounds of .308 from a bolt gun in 3 days will make your shoulder sore.
I’ll also forever regret passing up Marine Corps Sniper School, but that’s a different story.
“All stuff I could do…”
They don’t show the targets, so well, anyone can stand there and pull the trigger.
“I will dissent, however and say that police snipers are usually a good thing. ”
You apparently don’t know the meaning of the word “dissent”. How the hell did you manage to become a cop?
“Shooting 240+ rounds of .308 from a bolt gun in 3 days will make your shoulder sore. ”
Wow your a pussy. Its 3 days, not 1 hour.
“All stuff I could do…”
They don’t show the targets, so well, anyone can stand there and pull the trigger.
“I will dissent, however and say that police snipers are usually a good thing. ”
You apparently don’t know the meaning of the word “dissent”. How the hell did you manage to become a cop?
“Shooting 240+ rounds of .308 from a bolt gun in 3 days will make your shoulder sore. ”
Wow your a pus sy. Its 3 days, not 1 hour.
And in your “school” you fired only 240 rounds? Really? I put 200 rounds of 7.62 nato downrange in a hour at the range. So because you went to “school” shooting a $2000+ bolt gun with a bipod at 100 yards, you consider yourself a “sniper”? Please quit and go back to living out your fantasy in call of duty.
Because I just can’t get enough
“The training varies, of course, but mine involved fire and movement, coordinated fire “missions”…”
How does this have anything to do with being a sniper? And its troubling to hear that you never practiced shooting at moving targets, yet you practiced shooting, moving and then shooting again. How the hell do you consider yourself to be a sniper and not a poser?
Dear Matt,
I’m not sure why I offended you, and I frankly don’t care.
I could describe my shooting experience in the Marine Corps, as an NRA Instructor, security, and law enforcement, but you aren’t worth the effort. Maybe you’re a young pup in the military who has keyboard courage. I shoot well enough to know that I am competent, and I am competent enough to know that there are shooters who have more skilled than me. I do my best to learn from the best.
I dissent because my opinion is different than most posters here – I’m pro-sniper. You can look up the word dissent in a dictionary if you need assistance.
Have a nice day.
You made several stupid comments, thats what offended me, I quoted the relevant sections for your convenience. I’m a civilian who pays for his hobbies out of his own pocket, rather than making the tax payer subsidize it like you do. Have a great day welfare queen.
So… if two guys get in a fight over the game in the chair below me, the sniper mistakes the fight for a terrorist altercation, sniper fires ( having been trained to shoot on flat ground ) and the bullet carries long and high, plugging me in the heart; it just is all good? Feel safer already.
Ever once hear of a police sniper intervening in the course of a fist fight at a stadium? I haven’t heard of any.
Also, elevation and range are easily accounted for with simple ballistics software and a bit of training. Snipers also pre-designate their targets, ranges, and target areas. I’m not saying that they don’t make mistakes, but they are certainly deliberate in their actions.
“Ever once hear of a police sniper intervening in the course of a fist fight at a stadium?”
Ever hear of a police sniper ever actually taking a shot outside of training in a stadium? I havent heard of any.
“Also, elevation and range are easily accounted for with simple ballistics software…”.
I don’t see a iPhone/laptop/laser range finder any of that video. The camera man is standing where the spotting scope is, so they dont have a spotter either. Your also ignoring windage, ever been in a open air stadium like theyre in? Its windy as hell usually.
“Snipers also pre-designate their targets, ranges, and target areas.”
How exactly does the sniper get to choose the range or target areas, especially in this scenario? And in regards to designating their targets, well thanks for clearing that up for everyone who thought “snipers” fire blindly in to the air.
Posting at blinding speed.
Ahhh…but this is the new age of militarized police. How often do the cops shoot someone because they “think” somebody has a gun?
At the extreme angle they are contemplating shooting; I would say they have never practiced for anything like that, and will kill bystanders versus the perp.
“Snipers also pre-designate their targets, ranges, and target areas.”
How exactly does the sniper get to choose the range or target areas, especially in this scenario?
They do not. The End. This will not be a simple Sniper Course.
In this scenario, the snipers do not get to pre-designate their targets. This looks like a rapid – response scenario. On the other hand, the snipers who readers have “seen” at the super bowl and other venues absolutely do pre-designate their targets, ranges, and target areas. They do so beforehand, and periodically check their equipment from their eagles nest. They are typically shooting .308 or .300 Win Mag, and are doing so from high quality tripod mounts on a weapon system that they are highly familiar with. A 300-400 yard shot under such circumstances is not extraordinarily difficult. Mildots, laser-ranging, and ballistic software take much of the guess work out of the equation.
If you’ve been near a political leader, you’ve probably already been in the target zone of a sniper overwatch already.
I am not saying that we should not monitor police activities, but I do condone police sniper support in certain situations. I also believe in police accountability. I do not believe that police snipers are incompetent as a general rule.
“I do not believe that police snipers are incompetent as a general rule.”
Because you fired 240 rounds from your gun at “school”, several years ago.
“Mildots, laser-ranging, and ballistic software take much of the guess work out of the equation.”
Keep on lieing. The latter two are not present in this video. And you can’t tell what type of reticle they are using from the video either.
“…other venues absolutely do pre-designate their targets, ranges, and target areas.”
Please oh great call of duty super sniper man, tell me how the hell you get to choose the range and where the target will be in an active shooter scenario at a stadium.
“Snipers also pre-designate their targets, ranges, and target areas.”
How exactly does the sniper get to choose the range or target areas, especially in this scenario?
They do not. The End. This will not be a simple Sniper Course.
Great Internet.
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