Police investigate the scene of a shooting at a federal office building in Lower Manhattan, New York August 21, 2015. One person was killed and another was critically wounded after gunfire broke out at a federal building in Lower Manhattan on Friday, New York police and fire officials said. The shooting, which took place at a building that houses an immigration court, resulted in a single fatality at the scene, a spokesman for the Fire Department of New York said. REUTERS/Andrew Kelly

“I asked if the NYPD considered the Good Guy With a Gun scenario when developing their active shooter protocols. Deputy Commissioner Miller replied with a flat no — it didn’t enter into their thinking, at least not when considering the civilians in the department’s jurisdiction. ‘There are a minimal number of carry permits, business permits, or even legal guns in New York,’ he said. He allowed that things might be different for the police who dealt with the assault on the Garland, Texas, show of caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad: ‘It’s not like Texas where two terrorists can show up to an art show with two AK-47s and multiple magazines and still be outgunned. I love that about Texas.'” – Alex Yablon in What I Learned at the NYPD’s First-Ever Active Shooter Training for Journalists [via thetrace.org]

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62 COMMENTS

  1. Wait. So if he loves that about Texas what is he doing to make NY more like what he loves?
    Or does he believe that people in Texas are more capable, more trustworthy, more decent than his own people in NY?

    • “Or does he believe that people in Texas are more capable, more trustworthy, more decent than his own people in NY?”

      Probably this!

    • A deputy commissioner of the NYPD doesn’t make the laws in NY… and can’t speak out against them in his official capacity without facing recriminations.

        • I’m betting I could take an in-depth look at some of your past jobs and find a way to call you a sellout. Almost everyone thinks they are the ones who walk the talk when most just talk the talk. Interestingly, I’ve never met a perfect person in this world, myself included.

          Or you can call him a sellout and see if you can replace him with someone who’s completely anti-gun. I haven’t seen scorn being very productive – the whole anti-cop deal almost made me shut the door on TTAG forever.

        • “Then he is a man of zero principle and deserves to be scorned and never to be trusted.”
          I don’t know this guy, but that doesn’t have to be the case. You can agree with, philosophically, most of your job, and do a great job helping people doing that job, but still not like one particular part of it. You don’t throw the baby out with the bath water, you take pride in the good work you do, and you work to change the policies that you don’t agree with. Of course, we should all have lines we won’t cross, but there is plenty of honor, and service in doing a good job and still doing what you can to change the things you don’t agree with.
          Considering how brutal NYC politics can be, I’d say just speaking out like that is proof that this “official” is doing just that.

        • @Accur81 I highly doubt it. I will not pursue a career that violates my principles. I have and still do refuse to act on directions from my managers/directors that go against my core beliefs. I have been reprimanded, but never forced to comply under protest.

          My workplace is a gun free zone, but I carry, and keep arms in my vehicle. There are many other examples, but I will not write a novel to prove a point in a blog.

          Some of us do walk the talk, and I agree, nobody is perfect. When it comes to matters of use of force, I am adamant in my beliefs that you never use force against a non-violent individual. When it comes to one’s personal philosophy, you do not remain a virtuous person when you believe one thing, but act against it. Your honor is all you have. When you prove that you can not stay true to your core beliefs, you are proven to be untrustworthy and deserving of being called out on it.

          I don’t see where anything anti-cop was in my post, but whatever.

        • Never use force against a non-violent individual is nice in theory. It’s not possible to do so against the “conscientious objector” who won’t get out of a car and death grips the steering wheel.

          Nor is it possible to be perfect in the military, as JWT and I can both attest to. I was just starting skirt the Gun Free Zone philosophy as an 0311 in the Marine Corps. Was I a sellout before then? Was JWT a sellout if he ever complied with GFZ requirements? The military is so full of idiotic decisions it’ll make your head spin – including the USMC sticking with the .308 Win Rem 700 variant as their primary sniper rifle (I’ve got one, too but the .338 Lapua smokes it).

          You’ve got to pick and choose your battles. A dirty shoot is a dirty shoot, for example.

          Every job has issues. I doubt your virtue is perfect, but I believe that you perceive it as so. At least that’s how you sound. I’ll go out and tell you that I’m not perfect. I’ve stopped the wrong car or questioned the wrong person who I thought was a suspect. I’ve made mistakes on crashes and arrest reports. I endeavor to fix those mistakes while they are still relatively small, because it gets a whole lot worse if you don’t.

          My point is not to say that you’re a bad person, or to say that I’m supercop. There’s much better supervisors out there than me. Please just cut this cop some slack. He’s speaking out. That should be encouraged, not scorned.

        • I’m leaning toward agreement. Iron men with wooden sticks have been replaced by wooden men with iron sticks.

        • @Accur81 If I lived on the west coast, I would like to have a few drinks with you and continue this conversation in a more in depth manner, but this medium doesn’t allow me to respond in a manner that completely conveys my thoughts. I see where you are going with this, and I will not say that I agree with you, but I understand your opinion.

          ” I doubt your virtue is perfect, but I believe that you perceive it as so.” That is a low blow and completely inaccurate. My philosophical virtues vary greatly from most others since I adhere to the NAP and understand why many would project the assumption of my perceived perfect virtue. I judge others harshly to make a point, and some of the time it is received and assimilated, most times it is dismissed as fantasy.

  2. I recall seeing an article in which the Chicago police chief has at least implied that he has ordered Chicago PD officers to shoot anyone they see in possession of a gun. He said he didn’t care if they were legal permitted carriers. Just shoot first and cover up later.
    That is probably NYPD training as well since as noted they have deprived the majority of NYC citizens their right to armed self defense.

    • Well, the NYPD might shoot AT you, but they likely won’t HIT you, so it’s all good.

      The thing is, this guy’s likely correct – the chance of an armed good guy who isn’t a government employee being part of a shooting scenario in NYC is so tiny, that it probably isn’t woth the brain damage to consider it. On the other hand, there are a lot of plain clothes armed government employees (including off duty NYPD and Corrections officers) in NYC who are armed. So they might want to at least consider that . . .

    • NYC as perhaps no other city in the country has an official culture that portents to being the most important city in the country, above all others and of greater importance then any other place or citizens in the nation. Seemly a law unto itself. It certenly seems choose to bend, twist define and cherry pick federal law for it own agenda if it’s political masters precive that they or their agendas are threatened.
      Is it any surprise that they so fear their citizens being armed?

  5. The terrorists in Texas were not out gunned. Texans just know how to hit what they are shooting at, which is an unknown concept in the NYPD.

      • I understand that in order to be absolutely correct, that “officer” should be “local traffic officer”. But still a Texan!

    • You’re talking about a state with a one-animal-per-tag hunting season with deer so thick you get a ticket when you nail one (or five) with your car on the Northway. Upstate hunters can’t put groceries on the table with their rifles, but Manhattanistas (Manhattanasty’s) spend $1,500 on a shotgun, $2,000 on a hunting “outfit” replete with heated socks, spend a weekend sitting in the rain and get the flu, and offer you their shotgun for your deer at the tag station so they don’t have to go home empty handed.

    • I think you can be “outgunned” by weapons or you can be outgunned by superior training and tactics. In this case, it’s the latter.

  6. To be clear, there’s probably a higher percent of armed citizens anywhere outside of NYC. I think my state of NH has about 150,000 people with carry permits out of a population of about 1,500,000. Texas is still my idea of Hell.

      • Yeah, I’ve been outside with a chill factor of minus 120, and if I never see snow again, and ice only in my drink, I’ll happily salute Satan with my cold beer and carry on.

        • I think the same thing every year in January, but then I remember the few times I’ve been stuck in 90 degrees-plus weather with 90% humidity. I’d rather put up with the cold.

  7. Under LEOSA, active duty and retired cops can carry in NYC exempt from municipal law. NYC is a major tourist attraction in the US; therefore, there is a high probability of many out-of-town cops CCing in NYC every day. The coincidence of an active shooter incident (or any other LE incident) occurring in NYC in the presence of a CCing out-of-town cop are far greater than zero.

    Moreover, these out-of-town cops will have a nearly automatic reaction to intervene in an incident; in contrast to NYC licensed carriers (e.g., the likes of NYT publisher or the Donald).

    I acknowledge that each police agency has to prioritize its training according to the circumstances it perceives relevant to its jurisdiction. Nevertheless, it appears that NYPD is relying heavily on qualified immunity and giving little heed to the safety of anyone other than uniformed cops when they draw their guns.

    Anyone who gets shot unjustifiably by a NYC cop is expected to concede his personal safety as subordinate to the priorities of the NYPD and its training policies.

    OK, I get it. Well, then, what’s good for the cops is good for civilians. If the cops don’t need any more training on shoot/NO-shoot scenarios than they get, then I suppose civilians don’t need a lot of training to carry either.

    • This goes way beyond LEOSA, what about New York City police detectives and plain clothes cops — not to mention off-duty New York City police officers who could be armed. And how about Feds — FBI and Secret Service — who happen to be on site for whatever reason? How about New York State Police who might be in plain clothes — whether on duty or off duty?

  8. “But research has cast serious doubt on firearms’ comparative effectiveness for self-defense.”

    His “research” references another Trace article about the recent French train incident where unarmed good guys took out the armed bad guy.
    Huh?

    • If an event supporting their position occurs it’s research. If an event nonsupporting of their position occurs it’s an anecdote.

      • I’ll have to remember that. On a similar note, a lefty on a forum once said, “No one has been able to show me a single example where…”. So I responded with such an example that I had personal knowledge about. He responded by saying, “Anecdotes have no place in serious discussions of an issue”.

        • I have heard that “not a single example” crap for over 20 years now, I think it must be some of the propaganda widely distributed. I first heard it from a young relative on a mostly-family discussion group via email, way back in the early days, around 1992 or so. I happened to have at hand a copy of the then-new book that was a compilation of 15 or 20 years of the NRA’s “Armed Citizen” column, so I set the trap by asking “do you mean, literally, NONE”? and was answered “Yes, I mean it has NEVER happened”. To be fair, he was young, but he WAS in med school at the time, should have known better. I spent a day and a half typing in about a hundred newsclips, word-for-word, including the newspaper which published them and the date, covering 15 years or so, and ending with the fact that I had many, MANY more, the group should consider the supply endless. I got back snarky remarks from others about the horrible way the NRA expressed their opinions, responded that they were NEWSPAPER articles, with attribution, the only part the NRA played was reprinting them verbatim. From the entire group, I never heard the “never happened” crap again, but I have heard it in other places. I wish I had kept the email I sent, I have had occasion again since, but never the interest to spend the time to recopy all that.

        • That’s textbook confirmation bias. AKA close-mindedness. A “serious” conversation occurs when opinions are based on facts. It might be more productive to debate a 2-year old about why he needs to go down for a nap.

  9. Interesting that the people in the most technologically advanced, (I don’t say civilized) city in the world are more subject to being prey animals to any savage, barbarian, rape gang, homicidal maniac, and fundumentalist muslim terrorists than someone in the “wilds” of the desert Southwest.

    We are more civilized out here in Fly Over Country than those cess pits of tyranny, oppression and virtual slavery on the coasts.

    • I get your point, but NYC is far from the mzost technologically advanced city in the world. Right here in the US San Francisco could easily outdo it. And then there’s Berlin and Seoul just from personal experience.

      • Hiroshima is pretty fabulous these days, too! Despite the fact that it is supposedly uninhabitable for the next 10,000 years.

      • Brea, CA has US Optics. Berger Bullets are out of Fullerton, CA. One could make an argument for Cupertino, CA and Silicon Valley (and I almost said silicone valley – hey, if you can touch ’em they’re real).

        Smyrna, GA also has some sweet tech. I’m too right wing for San Francisco.

    • That would be too crowded. I vote for 30000 in D.C., 30000 in NYC. If there’s any overage, send them to Chicago to be murdered.

    • They will get a long “very well” with the new york jewish population. Perhaps that is the reason the president will send them there.

  12. Lol, he’s jealous because he thinks the terrorists were “outgunned” by a rent-a-cop with a Glock 21… Wow things must be way worse in NY than I ever could have imagined.

  13. > ‘There are a minimal number of carry permits, business permits, or even legal guns in New York’

    Which brings to mind the question: can you conduct legitimate self defense in the US by use of illegal firearm?

  15. Boy The Trace sure is derping hard these days. Gone are the days of pretending not to be what they really are.

  16. Deputy Commissioner Miller, like all Deputy Commissioners and the Commissioner himself, is not a police officer. The Commish and his Deputies are civilian administrators and not sworn officers.

    Miller is a former CBS newsguy who previously worked for the FBI as a spokesman. This is Miller’s second time around as a Deputy Commissioner and he probably took a cut in pay from his CBS salary to take his current job with the NYPD. He is perceived as being to the right of the average media hack, and he does not seem to have a bad attitude about guns.

  18. I doubt that they have considered the possibility of an armed plain clothes or off duty officer or one visiting from another jurisdiction.

  19. Ok. This about that. Waco is in Texas. And does that nypd officer in the pic have 3 mag pouches dragging his belt down? Hasn’t he heard? You can’t miss fast enough.

  20. It’s not like the NYPD can actually hit anything so if you’re a good guy with a gun, your odds are better against the police than a criminal.

  21. Baby steps. Let’s get them to master not killing innocent bystanders first, then maybe move up to good guy with a gun scenarios.

  22. “It’s not like Texas where two terrorists can show up to an art show with two AK-47s and multiple magazines and still be outgunned.”
    Uh What? Outgunned> Not the way I remember it.
    Although, I guess competency does make a difference. NYPD wouldn’t understand that

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