“I think the politicians here are always doing the knee jerk and trying to fix things that aren’t broken. Florida’s gun laws are working the way they are.” – Brooksville, Florida Police Chief George Turner in Many in law enforcement oppose proposed open carry law for guns [at tampabay.com]
I guess it’s not clear if the quote is pro or against open carry. Looking at the linked article I’d say against.
Yup. NH’s glorious governor kept repeating the same ridiculousness when NH put Constitutional carry on her desk. “Our current laws are working for us.”
A million dollars says is the bill on her desk was a ban on carry altogether she’d toss away that “current laws” nonsense and sign it with glee.
If FL were looking to restrict liberty that cop would be all too happy to sing the praises of a police state damn “current law.”
. . . AND DAMN CURRENT RESULTS !
It’s repeated too often here, ‘cops are there in minutes when seconds count’ and it’s a PERMANENT MAXIM that physics and time will not allow you to overcome. “Minority Report” be damned.
“ALL CRIME IS BASED UPON RESPONSE TIME” [J.M. Thomas R., TERMS, 2012]
NO ONE (EXCEPT YOU) CAN PROTECT YOU ON THE INDIVIDUAL LEVEL. DON’T LET PEOPLE BIND YOUR HANDS AGAINST PROVIDING YOURSELF PERSONAL PROTECTION BECAUSE (THEY BELIEVE) IT FURTHERS THEIR JOB OR THEIR POLITICAL POSITION OR ARGUMENT.
Gee… The fact that Florida is one of only five states that ban open carry is a sign that Florida may want to quit trying to “fix” carry.
There is open carry allowed in Florida.
Allowed while fishing or hunting, and the trip to and back.
Granted, it’s limited OC.
But it *is* OC…
Hell, I can open carry while hunting and even conceal carry while fishing without a license. In CA. I’m still not bragging about CA’s permissive gun rights attitude.
Thank goodness. I’d hate to be legally bound to toss the gun in the water.
There’s no reason to free the slaves…it works just fine.
No reason to let women vote, hasn’t been a problem in the past.
Why use silly electric lights, these whale oil lamps work just fine.
Nice.
But my local fish market is out of whales this year! What am I to do?
As an employer, I usually don’t ask my employees about policy decisions. I tell them and they live with them.
Exactly. This Four-star General Cop’s opinion on the law has the same weight as everybody else – one vote. His job, past exercising his right to cast that one vote, is to enforce the law(s) as presented to him by his legislature, or to resign in protest and work for their repeal.
The police groups where the ones against licensed concealed carry, stand your ground, castle doctrine, licensed open carry, etc…..
They are the ones that had the “not to be harassed by the police” amendment removed from the open carry law here in Texas.
I used to always wonder how the SS in 1930’s Germany could find people to do the things they did. But I wonder no longer.
Everywhere they went, the Nazis were able to find locals who were happy to work with them.
One of the Nazi’s Sonderkommandos was Schwartz György: better known now as George Soros.
I was NOT aware of that. He was a Sonnerkommando?
That explains a lot.
Wasn’t he like 14 or 15 years old?
Whenever snopes.com “debunks” anything, you know you’re onto something.
Adrian Garcia, as Harris County Sherrif, argued those same stale, statist points to the legislature during this year’s session: officers won’t know who the bad guys are, officers shouldn’t be restricted from or fined for demanding to see someone’s license, etc.
He resigned as Sherrif to run for mayor of Houston, a race in which yesterday he failed spectacularly.
I’ve not been keeping up: did the incumbent keep the mayor’s office?
She wasn’t up for re-election, seeing as how she’s ‘term-limited’ by Houston’s Charter.
So glad I moved out of Tampa. I was shocked when I moved from Hillsborough county up to Gwinnett County outside of Atlanta and no longer had to wait 3 days for a gun, even though I am a competent, law abiding citizen who happens to be a veteran. I was like a kid in a candy store when I got to buy, do my background check AND take home my first gun (purchased in GA) all in the same day. I love being treated like an adult!
Also, the Hillsborough Sheriff is a bit of a D-Bag and wont sign any NFA paperwork for a can so keep in mind that Florida IS a swing state but every county listed in the attached article is more blue than red. Therefore I am not surprised he is against open carry. #Shocking /sarcasm.
However, I do see where the police are coming from having said all of the above. I grew up in Florida, left for the military after college and didn’t return for 6 years. When I got back from overseas (spent five of my years on active in Germany and 1 in Iraq) I realized how aggressive a lot of Florida residents are and how it seems out of control Florida is as far as violence in general. I could write an entire essay on experiences behind the wheel from the last 3 years of living there. A quick google search about Florida road rage and crime stats will help illustrate my point. I can’t explain it but that place is insane as far as people being pissed off in General. It may have to do with it being the third most populated state in the union and it may have something to do with that most Florida residents are transplants. I do not know, I am not a sociologist or economist… I do feel concealed carry is a must in that state but open carry is somewhat of a slippery slope considering the place is a tourist trap and overpopulated. I know I would personally not want to open carry in Florida and that a bill should be proposed for on-campus CCW’s but I was surprised when an OC law was proposed. I know I may get flamed for this but I spent 22 of my 31 years in Florida and still feel a bit passionate on figuring out what the heck happened to my state.
“I do feel concealed carry is a must in that state but open carry is somewhat of a slippery slope considering the place is a tourist trap and overpopulated.”
I’m anxiously awaiting details on your logic regarding how the rage / aggressiveness stuff you mentioned is worse with OC vs CC.
How is OC a slipperly slope?
In other words…what the actual hell point are you making here? This sounds like the anti’s talking points on campus carry…that students will open fire on each other or some such nonsense.
“In other words…what the actual hell point are you making here? This sounds like the anti’s talking points on campus carry…that students will open fire on each other or some such nonsense.”
This is what is wrong with the 2A community. Because I do not agree precisely with the way you want to carry your firearm I sound like the enemy. Please re-read my post before writing an emotional based reaction. As someone who actually put his life on the line for the constitution I feel very deeply about the RTKBA. Having said that take a trip to Ybor City on a Friday night and tell me if OC is a good idea. Please. I also know you did not read my post because I am FOR, I say again, FOR CC on campus.
@Bill K. Thank you. That is precisely my point. Thank you for sharing your experience.
I’m not ragging on your opinion or asking you to agree with me on anything, so you missed the point of my question … which is…how do you make the distinction between OC and CC in regard to choosing when/where to carry?
I mean, what is your criterion for when OC is “okay” and when one should ONLY CC?
Also, do you say that same thing to the cops that OC? Do you tell them not to OC in certain areas? (BTW, I used to be in LE and OC’d everywhere I went, so I am REALLY not understanding how you make the distinction that OC is okay in some locations and not others).
“Having said that take a trip to Ybor City on a Friday night and tell me if OC is a good idea. Please. ”
Why wouldn’t it be? Carry is carry. OC is not “location dependent.”
This smacks of the same kind of logic behind the “I don’t carry when I go to the corner convenience store because I live in a nice neighborhood” type comments.
“I also know you did not read my post because I am FOR, I say again, FOR CC on campus. “
I DID read your post, but it’s clear you did not understand the gist of my comment.
That gist is…you are being VERY inconsistent. Being FOR campus carry does not nullify the fact that your comments against OC in certain locations sound exactly like the arguments the anti’s make AGAINST campus carry.
“Bill K. Thank you. That is precisely my point.”
Which is what, that FL sucks?
Yeah, so still, what the HELL does that have to do with OC vs CC?
Bill’s comment did not mention carry at all, much less corroborated your assertion that OC is somehow ‘less favored’ in FL because…reasons.
TC, good idea or bad idea, any restriction on OC clearly qualifies as an “infringement” on RKBA, and you claim to be a big supporter of our constitutional rights, which makes your assorted stances schizophrenic. And before you get carried away with yourself again, I spent 20 years in the military and participated in three wars, save your breath on that subject.
Larry in TX. I apologize if what I wrote came off as boastful. I was trying to establish that I am not a troll and agree with the 2A. So I am not sure why you feel the need to one-up me. I do not even see you in the comments until after JR_in_NC replied so I am confused as to how you felt slighted on this. Either way thank you for your service. (not being sarcastic).
JR_in_NC, I see what you’re saying now. I appreciate the clarification. I now see you are looking at this from a broader scope than I was. I was looking at it as ‘yeah drunk people do dumb things. better not OC around them’. I now see your comments are more in line with ‘hey wait a minute, this does not pass the common sense test.’ I get it. You’re looking at it more from a political standpoint where I was kind of taking the Sheriffs’ words at face value. I avoid the areas they listed to begin with so I guess it wouldn’t apply to me regardless. Whether your state law is OC vs CC I encourage everyone to exercise their inalienable rights to carry and defend themselves if needed. We ALL agree on that.
As far as my comments as being schizophrenic. Well, I prefer CC over OC. Just my personal preference. And yes, I do think FL sucks so no change on that line of argument, hence why I moved out. lastly, I used my GI bill recently and got a degree at a public university. I never agreed with guns being banned from campus. So maybe that should be included in the proposal.
Other than that, we are all on the same team here.
[Edited–never mind, I saw the party I was addressing concede the point. My apologies if he saw this before my edit.]
@Steve In CO, Thank you. I just want to be more involved on the site and more active politically. I will do my best as a member not to attack anyone or their backgrounds and stick to the debate. I just want to be part of the movement. That’s all. Just trying to establish that I have a background in military and served because of a direct result of 9/11, not for benefits. I learned a lot from this thread and see things a little differently now. Best to all. Good debate ladies and gents. Best.
Well, TC, welcome to the site and…thanks for the discussion.
I encourage everyone to exercise their inalienable rights to carry and defend themselves if needed. We ALL agree on that.
Ab-so-freakin-lutely. Well said.
Well, I prefer CC over OC.
Your choice, and carry on.
For the record, none of us that gets ire’d up in the OC / don’t OC discussion cares that much about telling others how to carry.
The ‘argument’ comes from the segment that make claims against OC. That is, telling OTHERS how THEY should carry. There are some that are decidedly anti-OC AND they (for some reason) believe it is their place to tell others what to do and how they “should” do it.
You carry how you wish…no problemo. And, as far as I’m concerned, you don’t even have to justify a ‘why’ to me or anyone else. It’s none of my business. Just glad you carry, as you said above.
I just ask the same courtesy be given to those that choose to carry how THEY wish…whether it’s CC or OC (and to be clear, to avoid misunderstanding, I am NOT saying that you have not extended that courtesy…just making a broader, general point about the ‘debate’).
The OC ‘debate’ is one of the forks the anti’s are effectively using to divide us. We have to be careful about that.
The widespread rage is, in my opinion, all the more reason to carry.
I was thinking the same thing:
“I can’t explain it but that place is insane as far as people being pissed off in General.”
With a bunch of insane people angry at any and everything and nothing in particular running around, how am I as a peaceful, law abiding person supposed to know hiw to interact with them and navigate the day in Florida?
If anybody can freak out at any minute with only tangential connection to anything I’ve done, then that sounds like exactly the kind of place to move the hell away from. Failing that, it’s the kind of place where people should exercise their human right to keep and bear arms yo defend themselves.
Crime may be down, including “spree” shootings, but it does seem like just generally unbalanced people are on the rise. A friend of mine who works at an animal shelter talks about a huge INCREASE in times they had to call the police in the last year because a “client” was being completely apeshit irrational.
TC, I’m a native Floridan too, but Florida, like California, has long been two states in one, made up of people, ideas, and cultures that often diverge. Until about 1940, Florida was just another typical southern state. Wealthy Yankees liked to vacation there, but few stayed permanently. By 1940 the common man had discovered the place (again, similar to California), and the military buildup there during WWII added greatly to the influx of outsiders, many of whom stayed after the war (my Mother and her parents for example). The tourist boom of the 50s and 60s brought more families, and the growing national retiree population sought warmer climates to rest their aching bones. By 1960 we joked about the “Miami crowd” which contained a disproportionate number of transplanted Yankees, also referred to as snowbirds (which includes Canadians). Hence, nicknames such as “Little New York” and “Little Israel” were used to describe parts of the city and surrounding beaches. With the arrival of the first wave of Cuban refugees after Fidels’ realignment of the country, the term “Little Cuba” was added to the lexicon, though it applied to a much broader area of south Florida. Initially, this did not present a great problem for the state because so many of them were the educated elite of the island, and staunchly anticommunist. The second wave of immigrant under Jimmy Carter’s sterling leadership in the 1970s, brought a different class of Cubans to south Florida, composed mainly of the poor (and who isn’t poor in Cuba these days except the party leaders), the criminals, and the mentally ill. Florida has been suffering for it ever since. The vast improvements in the highway system since the 70s and the ever growing coastal and southern populations have contributed to the crime problem. Inland rural areas remain the least affected, and these people cling to their southern roots, but they may be a vanishing breed. I fear urban sprawl may someday turn Florida into another California, with all the associated problems. That’s one of the reasons I left (that and the intense heat and humidity). So there is at least part of your answer.
I’m not following what this gas to do with law-abiding people (in fact, CCW holders are the most law-abiding demographic there is) choosing to OC vs CC.
The logic fault here is thinking that criminals, crazy people, road ragers, etc. would bother to follow the law under any circumstance.
Having come from a suburb in Pinellas (~1hr West of Tampa), I can tell you firsthand that Tampa (having lived here 3 years) is a world of its own, like any metropolitan area. “Tampa driving” is an assertive but levelheaded waltz. It sounds like you just aren’t used to the city, but I’m glad you found what you like.
P.S. If you want to buy a long rifle, leave the county. Hillsborough is an anomaly.
So, Chief Turner, all your officers are going to concealed carry then? No open carry for the free citizens of Florida should include you, too. Right?
This! No animal is more equal.
What’s good for the gander is good for the goose.
Is this saying that he opposes a law mandating open carry as opposed to concealed? Orrrr???
Ha! Oppose a bill you don’t like and you are “fighting progress”, back a bill you do like and it’s “knee jerk.” Perhaps a bit more facts and a bit less emotional manipulation. Thanks.
Those silly politicians. Always wanting to do knee jerk things like adhere to the Constitution.
Ha! Nicely said.
It was a Florida sheriff who worked with CNN to arrange that bogus “demonstration” where they passed off a full-auto rifle as a semi-auto “assault weapon”. The LEO brass-hats who aren’t in the Dem’s gun-grabbing pocket are hard to find.
Only it doesnt work just fine. The florida legislature in 2011 adopted a law to allow accidental exposure and printing of concealed firearms. Then the florida supreme court flipped that law on its head and cops have been arresting people for accidental exposure when they dont notice that their shirts rode up over their firearm and left it exposed. The new “open carry” bills are an effort of the legislature to fix the judicial screw up. It doesnt allow anyone to open carry. Only those with thier conceal carry license. They were written with the help of law enforcement and supported by a number of county sheriffs.
Law enforcement’s job is just that, to enforce the law, nothing more, nothing less. If they don’t like the law, they can do what ordinary people do – contact their local elected representative.
And if open carry is seen by some as such a big potential problem for Florida, then why is it not an issue for all the other states where open carry is not prohibited?
Chiefs are political toys, there to do their mayors bidding, thus what they say has no relevance to anything.
In fact, anecdotally, the majority of “police officers against” firearms in some capacity are always chiefs… rarely sheriffs, rarely the rank and file, as sheriffs tend to be directly responsible to their electorate, and the rank and file see what it’s like in the streets.
Bingo!
Nothing says “we are a professional police force, not a bunch of hick clowns” like a garish fake-chrome italic font on your press conference backdrop. I guess the sign company couldn’t do Comic Sans?
Here in TX, we get that crap about an officer being able to toss our 4th amendment rights in the garbage if he sees an OC firearm, too. The idea apparently runs something like preventing criminals from carrying a gun. No mention of why the difference from CC, where that cop cannot stop someone who does not have a visible firearm and hassle him without cause.
Criminals cannot possibly carry a gun at all, due to the fact that it is illegal. Whether the gun is visible or not makes not a whit of difference, just bringing such a concept into the discussion shows a complete lack of basis for the argument. One argument against campus carry has been that if called to a disturbance, the police wouldn’t be able to tell who the good guys were vs the bad guys. Really? Do they think we are THAT stupid? What, pray tell, do they do, NOW, in the 99% of their jurisdiction which is NOT campus?
An open carry ban is tantamount to a ban on homesexuals showing affection in public (i.e., demonstrating they are gay).
Basically the sheriff is saying you can choose your behavior as long as he doesn’t have to look at it.
Define “working.”
To make such a claim, one must believe that Florida’s gun laws are achieving some intended outcome. So: what is that outcome, and how are Florida’s gun laws empirically achieving that outcome?
I’m looking forward to getting hassled by the police for open carrying come January 1st in Texas. I’m whipping out that cell phone and recording the whole thing, live uploading to the cloud. I’ll comply, because I don’t want to get shot, proned out or arrested. Once free, that video goes straight to youtube and I go straight to a lawyer.
With zero probable cause whatsoever of a crime, stopping me and demanding to see my license is unreasonable.
Do they stop everyone with pockets to see whether they just shoplifted? Do they stop everyone driving to see whether they’ve stolen that car? Do they stop everyone with a penis to run DNA tests to see whether they’re a rapist? What about people carrying with cash? Do we stop them and compare serial numbers to known stolen money? Do the police check everyone’s bills with that special pen to determine whether it’s counterfeit?
There’ve been small settlements ($15K or so) in other states when officers have harrassed lawfully open carriers. If I get it, I’ll donate it to 2A organizations.
At the very least, it’d be enough to embarrass the officer on youtube and stain the officer’s record with a substantiated, formal department complaint. Let that be brought up at every annual review and trial he testifies in forever. Let that be stapled to every job application he ever fills out.
Right there with you. I will be nice and comply, but they will be recorded.
From the linked article….
“…They worry that deputies responding to a conflict won’t know criminal from victim. ”
So you are admitting that your deputies actually suck at their jobs? You are stating openly and publicly that your deputies can’t perform the most basic function of being a deputy?
“Florida’s gun laws are working the way they are.”
Working for who?
Sounds like the peasants are getting a bit uppity for the chief’s tastes.
Given how many DGUs I see coming out of Florida, they seem to be working just fine for plenty of people.
If the gun laws are working so well, lets ask what they are accomplishing.
Carrying is OK as long as nobody can see it. We created a provision for accidental exposure, but cops and prosecutors leapt on it as an opportunity to arrest people anew, because it erased case law that had been established. Then, the courts interpreted the law to have a meaning completely opposite of what was written in very plain English.
Every member of the judicial branch, judges, prosecutors, and the cops, went out of their way to prove what a bunch of dirty little bastards they are! Sure, it’s working for them and their insatiable, twisted desire to oppress and persecute anyone who steals their thunder by proving that it doesn’t make a you a big macho man to carry a firearm. As long as it’s concealed, that message doesn’t spread. Stay in the closet so we can feel macho!
We need the Legislative and Executive branch to reign these psychopathic Judicial branch freaks in… They’re way, way out of control…
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