“Congregation Shearith Israel, in Atlanta, has no official policy allowing guns, which makes the carrying of a firearm inside the building illegal. But apart from the ‘philosophical’ problem of violating the law, the congregation’s rabbi, Hillel Norry, said he does not mind if a congregant brings a concealed weapon to services. ‘We have an armed security guard every Shabbat,’ Norry said. ‘But he’s just one guy.'” – Does Carrying a Gun to Synagogue Make It Safer or More Dangerous? [via forward.com]
Makes it safer for the folks that belong there. Less safe for the skin head types looking for trouble.
More likely some ISIS or Muslim Brotherhood type.
In Virginia, it is illegal to carry at public worship service unless the Pastor says you can. I have permission but seldom do it. It just makes me feel uncomfortable.
Anti Semitic attacks in the U.S., by attacker:
15 – White supremacist
3- Muslim
1- African American (Crown Heights)
So yeah, skinhead/Nazi/Klan attacks are the bigger threat.
History is not always prelude to the present. What is the foreseeable current threat?
Makes sense. If your a Nazi-skinhead type you have a limited range of targets, but if your a radical Islamist targets are just about everywhere. If nothing else you’ll behead some guy with a vegetable cart for not having his vegetables stacked in the right order.
Those are very specific figures Alpo. What is the source, if I may ask?
Personally, if the FBI is so politically correct they won’t even list Muslim terrorist groups as a possible source for terrorist attacks here in the US, I would find most sources of actual numbers of attacks in the US listed as an actual “hate crime/terrorist attack by a Muslim” as probably too low.
After all, Maj. Hassan, with SOA(Soldier Of Allah) listed on his business card, yelling “Allahu Akbar” as he’s shooting down fellow soldiers is officially listed as having only work place anger for his motivations for his mass murder. I also noticed in the initial reports of Hassans mass murder, his religion was not even mentioned. It only came out later about his religious affiliations.
@alpo, what are the numbers for anti-Semitic attacks done by Jews?
I can only speak from my experience. I’ve done security work at temples that were under threat. The threat and vandalism was all from some sort of white supremacists/ skinhead types. As soon as you called their bluff they scampered like cockaroaches.
“Still, most rabbis the Forward spoke to oppose congregants bringing a weapon to synagogue. “Let’s say somebody gets in [to the synagogue] who shouldn’t and has a gun and starts shooting,” said Rabbi Peter Berg, of Atlanta. “What happens? Does every congregant who has a gun start shooting randomly and it’s a free-for-all?”
So much fail.
Am I the only person that read that with a bad Yiddish accent?
No.
I love the old “if common citizens try to defend themselves during a mass shooting even more will end up dead” argument. Even though this has never ever not even once happened…ever.
People who have zero experience with firearms simply do not understand how it works. The only images they have ever had of firearms are from Hollywood, where one blast from a shotgun launches you 20 feet into the air, and where gun battles do not require reloading. They think that Rambo pray & spray is par for the course. Edward Bernays would be proud.
Yes, it would be soo much better if that somebody didn’t have to face return fire.
Rabbi Stuart Federow, who leads Shaar Hashalom, a Conservative congregation in Houston, said that because synagogues are a prime terrorist target, he is thankful for congregants who arm themselves. He said that dozens of people of all ages show up to an informal Jewish group called Glocks & Bagels, which meets infrequently at a local firing range.
So much win.
Did I read this right, that a church has to have a specific policy ALLOWING firearms, otherwise carry is illegal? How screwy is that? I can’t even imagine the wording.
That’s the law as passed in HB60. Churches have to “opt in”, which means they have to have a published pro-carry policy or express permission from the governing body of the church.
Yes, they had to have something back-asswards to counterbalance all the other things in their “Gunz EVERYwhere! ZOMG!!1!!!” legislation package passed last year…
Many [most? all?] states that have a prohibition allow carry by permssion of the pastor/rabbi/imam. Virginia has a clause that says with “good and sufficient reason” that covers you even if you don’t have that authorization. I wouldn’t want to exercise that right unless I could show a clear and present danger without knowng the position of the Commonwealth Attorney.
Isn’t that something? Georgia “Guns Everywhere” state is opt-out for religious buildings. However, Texas “Overrated Gun Freedom” state is opt-in for religious buildings, meaning guns are allowed unless the premises owner specifically bans by providing proper legal notice. So much for the “Texas’ gun culture is overrated” myth.
If some congregations choose to be lambs, led to the slaughter, who am I to argue with them?
Quite so. That’s also religious freedom. IMO, Rabbi Hillel Norry is both wise and smart.
In today’s world, I do not go near a house of worship without a means to protect myself. I refuse to go so that I can meet my maker that day.
“Congregation Shearith Israel, in Atlanta, has no official policy allowing guns…”
Sounds like an easy fix.
Unless theres a sign on the door or the priest specifically tells me not to, I’m carrying.
If somebody hates you and wants you dead you should be arming and training yourself.
Does anybody want Jews dead? Nah…. Nobody. Ever.
No kidding. If I were a Jew I’d always have a gun….come to think of it I’m not a a Jew and still nearly always have a gun.
Pretty casual reading of history shows people (lots of different people- yay for diversity!) like to kill Jews. I recommend our Hebrew friends be prepared to kill them back. Never again, indeed.
And to this day I am surprised at the percentage of those of the Jewish faith who are vehemently anti-gun.
Does the old saying “Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.” mean anything to them?
Big E, you nailed it. I agree completely and that’s why I consider it my moral responsibility to be armed. Knowing history, it would be a moral failure if I did not keep and bear arms for defense. JPFO.org.
And Florida is OK with it, too. I think people should be allowed to carry guns everywhere, literally. I think what makes a place safe is more than just if people are carrying or not. It’s also criminal element, location, building design and features. In terms of people carrying, safety is based on those with guns, if they’re being safe or not. I say the church start a CWL group: some churches in Florida have gun clubs. Great way to then advocate safety through the group.
I’m a member of the Board of Directors at my temple in Sarasota. If I’m there during the day my gun stays in a lock box in my car because we also have a day school and pre school on campus, which makes it a school campus and therefore illegal for me to carry, with a mandatory 3 year sentence. When I’m there at night for meetings I usually am carrying concealed. During services, I’ve thought about it but so far I haven’t. During the High Holiday services we usually hire five off duty police officers, in uniform and with marked cars. My main concern previously was a potential internal threat from a mentally unstable member who managed to legally purchase a Ruger LC-9 from a local gun shop because he passed the background check, even though he was visibly disturbed and easily riled at the slightest imagined provocation. Thankfully he has since been relieved of his weapon by the police after an altercation and has moved out of state. If I knew there would be no legal issues with me carrying there all the time, regardless of the presence of the schools, I would.
Joel, I am quite curios…
How expensive are those off-duty in uniform officers?
Was wondering same thing, I sometimes see state troopers outside synagogues performing that role, and have wondered who is paying for it, and how expensive it is?
If I remember correctly, I believe they get $30/hour each. It gets to be pretty expensive. At least they do spread out and cover the campus, and are very visible. BTW, I’ve noticed a couple of churches here doing the same thing on Sunday. It’s a universal problem.
When I go to a church, I specifically ask the “Shepherd” if I can CC. If they say no, then it is obviously not the church for me. If the “”shepherd” of his flock so hates life and distrusts his flock so much he would deny them the basic right of defending their G-d given and sacred life from being ripped from them by a mad man/Predator, then the “Shepherd” has nothing I want to be a part of.
I attended a bar mitzvah this past weekend in Massachusetts, and I wondered the whole time what I would do if some a$$hole decided to attack the place and kill some Jews. So glad I moved out of that idiot state. Wish I could convince the rest of my family now.
Baptist Church – thankfully, it is “not a crime” where I live, but for added fun, I made sure to appointed as the trustee overseeing security (keys, alarm codes, etc). I gave myself permission and all of the other folks I knew who carried. Some people were a little “concerned” at first, but given the various shootings at houses of worship, I have many members asking for me to specifically be present during events since they know I am packing. My pastor even calls me his Joshua (the leader of the army)(Joshua 1-12).
In my synagogue in Upstate NY, 40% of our regular attendees, including the rabbi, have CCW permits and carry during services.
We take “Never again” very seriously indeed.
The recent acts of anti-Semitism down here in South Florida weren’t likely committed by Neo-Nazis..
Oy vey, where do goyim go to get news where they can understand the words?
Any Synagogue that doesn’t actively promote self defense by any and all means availabe boggles my mind. It’s not like there is a history of disarmament and/or becoming lambs for the slaughter or anything… over… and over… and over again.
Mine has armed off duty officers at all the high holly days. Yeah. Super. Thanks, but I’m not putting my tookus in their hands; I’ve seen too many of them shoot. Or I should say fail their shooting quals.
Of necessity, “never again” must apply to Synagogues. The NRA’s “good guy with a gun” argument basically assumes that we are all targets. I agree. ISIS is now talking about “lone wolf” attacks on innocent people.
How do you know what ISIS is talking about?? Seriously.
Do much reading, Paco?
@garrison ,Hilarious, so you read it on the internet or the newspaper and you know its true? What proof do you have? If you read Bloombergs material or Moms Demand material that’s true because you read it? Wow.
@ Paco – The Derp is strong with this one…
One need only look at the number of converts and recruits ISIS/ISIL is making in most western countries. Not just the US, but the UK, the Netherlands, Germany, Canada, etc.
@dyspeptic gunsmith, same question applies to you….how do you know this?
There was a report on church shootings and security on the 700Club yesterday. The numbers of shootings and violence were fairly astounding. Personally I’m always armed with something when I go to my large Baptist church in NW Indiana. And there is lots of security present as it’s in pretty crummy part of town. It is mind boggling to think Jewish folks would bar arms-but then the anti left wing bent explains it all. Never again? I hope not…
I live by a very simple rule. If a business, church or organization of any kind doesn’t want me to CC, Then my presence will never be found there!
“has no official policy allowing guns, which makes the carrying of a firearm inside the building illegal. ”
Noooooo. No.it.DOESN’T!
(Trying very hard not to blow my top off here!)
I don’t need a law to allow me to follow my rights, you need laws to STOP me from following them! Even so: Policies do not equal laws!
The Derp! It huuuurts …. It hurts so bad!!!
OK, I’m in a shall-issue jursdiction and don’t have a CCW. But here’s a question for you CCW carriers–
When you go some place with armed security, do you identify yourself to security to assist in sorting you out from the bad guys in case something bad happens?
I would be more impressed with Rabbi Norry if he actually gave permission, instead of stating the he doesn’t mind.
Left-wing Reform Jews (that may be redundant) are just clueless. Our synagogue’s new policy is locking the outside door 20 minutes after a service starts. Soooo, if you want to shoot some Jews, you’ll have to ring the bell, shoot the person who opens the door, then walk to the sanctuary and shoot the [now screaming, panicking] congregants. Great security.
I asked the congregation president if he would like me to bring my rifle to services. He thought that I was kidding. I wasn’t, but I chose not so say anything else.
If I am in or around that building, I’m packing. That’s just how it is. I’m not going quietly into that dark night.
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