“If Trayvon Martin hadn’t been black, he might still be alive today. But ultimately, if Zimmerman hadn’t been carrying a gun, the confrontation that he initiated that night in February when he shot the 17-year-old dead might have been nothing more than a fistfight, if that. And everyone knows you don’t bring a gun to a fistfight.” – Petula Dvorak in Zimmerman is the face of legal gun ownership gone terribly wrong [at washingtonpost.com]

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166 COMMENTS

  1. If, if, if……..two letters to express our fondest wishes. IF the queen had them she would be the king.
    More irrelevance from the Washington Compost.

  2. The idea of creating a safer, more peaceful, more human society by requiring that decent people yield ground to, and accede to the demands of, violent criminals is a quaint experiment that long ago ran its course. There’s a reason why the vast majority of states have a Castle Doctrine, and more and more are expanding it outside the home.

    • Ah, but it goes deeper than that with the bleeding hearts and grabbers like Dvorak.

      If they make any headway restricting defensive use of firearms outside the home to protect “the children” predators and predator wanna be’s, how long do you think it’ll be before they start attacking defensive use of guns in one’s own home or business. To them a bad actor’s life is more important than a few bruises and cuts from a “fist fight” – until they learn firsthand there is much more at stake when one is at the mercy of a vicious attacker.

      It’s all for the children of course, and other misguided sympathetic souls who only need a chance in life (insert hand wringing here). These mamby pamby progressives refuse to recognize or acknowledge that a segment of humans will always be sociopaths and opportunists unimpressed by social mores and laws.

      The only hope for awakening hallucinating grabbers like Petula Dvorak is a life altering experience with one of their poor sympathetic misguided souls bent on destroying them (and their loved ones) in their own “safe” environment.

    • “quaint” isn’t the term I’d use. “Doomed” or “disasterous” or ….
      The list could go on and on but I guess in the end you were being ironic in your understatement.

  3. Sadly, Petula is the poster girl for what is wrong with journalism today. First, Her editorial appears to be passed off as a news piece. Second, she seems unaware of basic facts of the Zimmerman case and uses presumed facts to support her assertions. Third, she suffers from dismal proofreading ex.”We had meaningful talk about mental health when it came to the Virginia Tech massacre or the Tucson shooting.” I could go on but I think I made my point.

    Is it possible “Petula” is a pen name and just a spoof of poor journalism?

    • Facts and the truth have never stopped false assertions and conclusions by either the grabber extremists or their mouthpiece so called journalist supporters.

      Making it up on the fly is second nature for these Democrat progressive statist grabbers masquerading as reporters. That’s why they get it so wrong, so often.

  4. How does Petula Dvorak know that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation?!?!?!? Did Zimmerman get out of his car to re-establish visual contact? Yes. Did Zimmerman confront Martin? No one knows.

    How does Petula Dvorak know that their violent confrontation would be a simple “fistfight” — implying that one or both would have a bloody lip and go on their merry way? The facts of the case tell us a different story. Both Zimmerman and a credible witness stated that Martin was on top of Zimmerman (who was down on the ground on his back) and that Martin was throwing punch after punch. Further, Martin’s body had absolutely no evidence of any punches to his face or body. That is way beyond a simple fistfight.

    People like Petula Dvorak won’t let facts affect their worldview. As such, I have no interest in her propaganda.

    • If she knows, she doesn’t care. Always remember: The issue is never the issue. This issue is always the revolution.

    • People like Petula Dvorak think that fistfights are harmless.

      I got blocked by someone on FB for pointing out that fists kill more people than rifles annually (FBI UCR Table 20).

      Too many people watch UFC and think that’s how all fights go.

      • To many people watch movies and television shows where the hero takes an incredible pounding, shakes his head, and walks away with no serious injuries. And after a few (Hollywood) days he doesn’t even have any bruises.

        This view is about as realistic as Hollywood’s portrayal of firearms and so it’s not surprising that these media elites would have no real understanding of either.

    • IF…Trayvon had proper upbringing, when GZ (maybe) asked him what he was doing there, he would have said, I am visiting my Dad and his girlfriend, who live at 1234 Soandso St., and I am on my way back from the store. But NOOOOO, he has to get up in George’s face and ask if he has a f*#king problem. THEN, when he gets a negative answer, tells him, you do now; and the games begin. Everybody keeps starting these suppositions with the word IF. Try looking at the facts.

  6. I really don’t want to bash the dead, but someone needs to say this.

    The fundamental underlying reason that Martin is dead is he got himself suspended from school. Not that getting OSS means you deserve to die, but he got himself suspended from school. If he hadn’t, he would have been at home and not in GZ’s neighborhood.

    And I’m pretty sure that Zimmerman would have shot a white boy who was trying to bash his skull in, but I can’t speak for George, I’m not his attorney.

    Unless she’s saying the “if TM wasn’t black” bit to mean that a YWM or YHM or YAM wouldn’t have stalked Zimmerman and attacked him, or been out at night in the rain in a hoodie. If she is, well, ma’am, that’s RAAAACIST.

    • The racism angle is really just so much distraction perpetuated by the usual race baiters including this administration and the media for profit, be it revenue, notoriety or votes; and make no mistake, BHO and certain of his people are using racial angst as a political tool.

      My question is whether the investigators were able to confirm or eliminate Martin as a “person of interest” regarding the burglaries occurring in that area? Were they able to compare his cell location data with dates of reported break-ins? Seems Martin had time and boredom at his disposal.

      Just a thought.

      • Trayvon Martin did not normally live with his father. His residence was far enough away that he is not considered a suspect in the crimes that happened in George Martin’s neighborhood. The perpetrators of several of these crimes have been tenatively identified and live nearby. I am not aware whether any of them are going to be prosecuted for their crimes.

        If the local authorities lack evidence for such prosecution, they should contact the team that went after Mr. Zimmerman. They apparently don’t need much evidence before they’re eager to head for court.

        • If the local authorities lack evidence for such prosecution, they should contact the team that went after Mr. Zimmerman. They apparently don’t need much evidence before they’re eager to head for court.

          But they do need a political, social engineering, or career payoff, or better a bit of all three.

          It’s fine to say citizens shouldn’t arm up for their own protection, and much is made that this was a “gated community.” Yet, unless the neighbors were robbing and home invading each other, they had others, nearby who were doing that without the police or prosecution much interested in stopping it. Why not? Nothing in it for them, if you’re a lower-middle class, not politically connected community with now value as actors in some trumped up morality play.

  7. what a crock of sh1t. the further away we get from this, the more they seem to think they can seque the story in their favor.

    what a bunch of liars and losers.

  8. Petula is absolutely wrong. Considering a person can be severely injured in a fist fight, is perfectly reasonable to bring a weapon, firearm or otherwise to get an attacker off.

    Lucky shot, eye gouge, some people have diseases that can be passed on by mixing blood or being bitten by them, and I have no way determine just how far they plan to beat me, nor do I have the inclination to let it ride out to see. I furthermore see no reason as to why anyone other than myself should determine just how much damage I am to suffer before defending myself, lethal force included.

    If she was talking about a boxing or martial arts tournament, she’d be damn right. Street fights however are not regulated, no medical staff on tap, no obligation from the opponent to yield else they’ll be pulled off and disqualified.

    I wonder if Zimmerman wasn’t white/mexican/or Gonzo (a whatever), or if Trayvon had been like 11 months older, would we have even heard of this. It would have probably hit the news for like a day, fizzled out and then someone goes back to discussing the Kardashians or waving some other poor sod’s bloody shirt to try to create drama.

  9. No gun to knifefight? She is kidding right? You ever see the end result of a knifefight? Personally I ain’t getting sliced up like a cantelope. I want a freaking bazooka on me in those circumstances. I hate when these idiots pontificate on violent confrontations and they have NEVER EVER BEEN IN A STREETFIGHT OR SPENT TIME IN AN INNER CITY ER.

    Woops I see she said fistfight. She ‘s still a moron. I rest my case.

    • I heard a good saying recently: in a fight between two master knife-fighters, the winner dies at the ER. The loser dies at the scene.

      • That is a great line.

        Long time ago learned if you want to try your knife skills out grab a friend, two magic markers and strip down to white tee shirts. Then go at it. At the end you will have a whole different idea about a knifefight.

  11. Yep; it feels at times like we are living in a Twilight Zone episode; where two alternate worlds are coexisting side by side, and the two worlds are exchanging thoughts about the same situation, and yet they are seen as COMPLETELY different.

    To me, the Trayvon/ Zimmerman affair supports COMPLETELY the reason to have the right to keep and bear arms, and this time, the justice system, after The Powers That Be tried to railroad Zimmerman into a guilty verdict, had us, the people, as the jury, actually dealt out justice, against all odds. What a proud moment for me as an American, to see true justice prevail, (for now), Let’s see what the Just-Us Department tries to manufacture in going after GZ.

  12. I’d rather be the one who brought a gun to a fistfight than the one who brought his fists to a gunfight.

    • Hell, I make even less distinction- If somebody wants to beat my head in, I want to be the one that leaves ALIVE.

  13. I have a serious problem with the widely accepted notion that if someone wants to resort to violence in the form of a fist fight, I’m supposed to just go along with that. There’s a sentiment that anyone that would think differently is less of a man. I carry a firearm to protect me and my family. I’ve never left my house with the intent to fight or inflict harm upon anyone. I do leave my house with the intent to return home alive and intact.

    • ^ This.

      First of all, there is a very real possibility that a single punch could cause a serious injury such as a broken jaw, broken nose, a concussion, or even death in some instances.

      More importantly, when a violent criminal attacks someone only with their fists, why are we supposed to trust the violent criminal to be nice and stop once they inflict “minor” injuries? The victim has no way of knowing how far the attacker will go. One punch could knock out the victim. Once unconscious it would be trivial for the attacker to kill the victim. Or what if the attacker starts with their fists and plans to pull a concealed weapon later in the fight?

      The trouble is hindsight is 20/20 and we have no way of knowing before an attack if an attack will be just a scuffle or a fight to the death.

      • Worse yet, what if the attacker gets in a lucky shot, rings your bell really good, then discovers you are carrying a concealed weapon? Even if he doesn’t decide to shoot you and walk away he still has the option of taking your pistol and either using it in crime or selling it to someone who will.

    • My ancestors did not rise to the top of the food chain with just their fists. They outsmarted their prey. They made tools to hunt, capture, kill, skin, butcher, clean, cook and then finally consume that prey. They aslo used some of those tools to defend the family and ward off trespassers. Be it a flint tipped spear, a chipped rock ax head, or a steel 1911 – it’s just a tool to get a job done.

  14. Follows the progressive script, ignore facts and redirect to a scenario that does not exist. Fact is, Travon jumped Zimmerman. If Travon simply stated why he was being followed because he lived some 100 yards away, or if he called the police or simply went home or simply not jumped Zimmerman, it would have ended differently.

    The Press and POTUS escalated all this beyond what it should have been.

    At the end, never allowing a good crises go to waste they will spin this into a gun control or stand your ground issue.

    This woman simply has another pointless point of view devoid of facts.

  15. any shady cat on my block wearing a hoodie, walking with a strut, and peering around corners ominously is getting PROFILED. white/black/brown/asian/other.
    I think most Americans are Equal Opportunity these days.

    • Or this, same idea:
      http://cnsnews.com/news/article/bay-state-man-charged-manslaughter-hockey-dad-fight

      If you’re on your back, getting punched in the face with no way for your head to move and absorb the impact, that escalates the punches from impact control to severe bodily injury. According to the continuum of force you can do equal to +1 to defend yourself. The “+1” would justify deadly force. Even if we assume Zimmerman did initiate a confrontation, Martin took this from self defense to assault in the form of attempting severe bodily injury as soon as he was on top of Zimmerman.

  17. To paraphrase the headline: Petula Dvorak is the face of journalism gone terribly wrong.

  18. She can’t be serious, or is she? One to many D.C. cock-tail parties. Her residence must be devoid of mirrors, or she would see a need for ugly in public law. Not even Nosferatu would bite her.

  19. Ms. Dvorak has left off one possibility. Maybe Trayvon ends up crippling or killing George even if he didn’t intend that result.

    I am an old guy from the old school. Girls don’t get into fights so they don’t understand that it’s not like the movies where actors rein lethal blows on their opponent for 10 minutes without any effect. When two full sized men get into a real fight serious, life threatening damage can be done in a few blows even if it is not intended. The human body is both resilient and brittle at the same time.

    • Several years ago I read an account of the murder of one Yute by two others who had struck the victim with a bat. In the police interviews of the two survivors, they were quoted as being amazed that it was not like the movies, that the victim had gone down immediately and not gotten back up.

      How many Yutes-or editorial writers-have their perception of reality based on movies and video games?
      How many actors/directors/writers have defended violence in their projects by stating that it is “cartoon” violence that no one could mistake for the real world?
      How many think that a human struck at full force by a swinging Louisville Slugger, will simply do a backward somersault, land on their feet and then perform a perfect round house kick just like Chuck Norris does?

  20. This chick doesn’t know a damn thing about street fighting, and her assertions otherwise are laughable. Unless I missed her MMA career or stint as a bouncer, she is talking out of her a$$ even more than most liberals.

    • By the same extension, LEOs should not have guns because then cops can have much safer, fistfights as well.

    • Zimmerman has been under a lot of stress latley. Like me, Im guessing he eats to pass time. Whats her excuse?

  24. Yes, because no one has ever killed anyone barehanded before… /sarc. I teach martial arts, and I would say some of the fights I’ve seen are more violent and brutal than a gunshot. The misunderstanding here is that the gun is seen as a trump card not an equalizer.

  25. Sure, and Zimmerman might only have brain damage.

    But it wouldn’t have made the news, so we could have all continued along in blissfull ignorance, pretending that these things don’t happen.

    • SgtR: It is remarkable, isn’t it, that the self-styled ‘liberally educated,’ presuming that they themselves stand on the intellectual high ground, seem to have filtered contemporary brain trauma research out of their curricula. It’s all the rage among ER physicians too, apparently. Messy wounds (gunshot injuries) seem the focus of their editorializing. The brain hemorrhage seen only by the radiologist, caused by punching or ‘curbing’ someone, is rarely mentioned in counterpoise. One or two good punches and 15-20 IQ points may be permanently gone, if nothing worse, condemning the recipient to a very different way of life.

      • We learn about how a fistfight can hurt the brain from troops getting blown up and big burly men getting paid lots of money to run into each other at high speed. Funny how it all ends up connecting.

  26. People like Ms. Dvorak firmly believe GZ initiated the confrontation when he followed TM. They believe he was out for blood because he carried a gun and everyone who carries a gun WANTS to kill people. They consider GZ a wannabe cop because he took action to look out for his neighbors and neighborhood instead of calling 911 and locking himself back in his home.

    They absolutely believe GZ hunted down TM to murder him because he was black. No amount of facts to the contrary will ever change their minds.

    GZ maybe could have handled things differently with TM and might have diffused the situation. Ultimately TM threw the first punch and bit off more than he could chew. If you’re gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough.

  27. If Trayvon Martin hadn’t confused acting like a decent human being, with “acting white” and kept his hands to himself, he might still be alive today.

  28. Here is something I don’t know if anyone has brought up….

    If the 17 year old “boy” Martin had brutally beaten GZ to death, would he have been tried as an adult or juvenile.

    I know that is kind of off topic, but the whole thing seems to be focusing on GZ’s killing of a teen boy.

    What if GZ had carried a baton instead of a gun? Where would we be now?

    • In most states it’s illegal for the average citizen to carry a baton or baton like weapon. You can carry a pistol(s) and rifles, but crazy illegal for a baton. It’s often illegal to even have one in your car, except for the purpose of transport. So if it had been a baton, he’d be in jail, for murder with prohibited weapon.

      • Actually, Florida has a Concealed Carry Weapons and Firearms license so carrying a baton is a possibility. However, what happens if you get blind sided/sucker punched and are down getting pounded into the side walk and mud hole?

  29. Wow, deep thinking for Petula. I bet if she was being raped her first thought would be “Thank God I don’t have a gun”.

  32. A guy in a bar near where I live bumped into some belligerent redneck and spilled his drink. The belligerent redneck punched him. Later that night the clumsy guy died (brain swelling or bleeding or somesuch). So being attacked with “just fists” is nothing to scoff at. It ain’t like the movies, folks.

  33. If Zimmerman was a cop and everything else was the same, there wouldn’t even be this discussion nor this trial and Petula would be hailing him as a hero. if, if, if…

    • I’ve used this same argument in some discussions with family members. By replacing Zimmerman with a LEO, all of their opinions change. When I ask why, they think LEO’s follow laws that are different regarding the use of deadly force and justifiable homicide. Of course, we know that those laws are the same for both LEO and citizen.

      • This is something we learned on TTAG a few weeks ago wasn’t it? If an LEO is losing a fight like GZ, then he can use his weapon to end the fight and save himself from significant physical damage or death.

  34. What if we replaced some words in the original quote. Something like, “…initiated that night in February when [she] shot the 17-year-old dead might have been nothing more than a [rape], if that. And everyone knows you don’t bring a gun to a [raping].” I’m pretty sure the author would never write this statement. But, we can assume that the author would support a woman who uses deadly force to protect herself from a rapist, but Zimmerman didn’t have that same right while he was being punched repeatedly in the face with his head resting on concrete?

  35. If he wasn’t black lol if he had parents he might not have been out way past what he should have been. If he didn’t have a gun it might have been Zimmerman who was killed and nobody would have known anything. This country is full of Obama supporting wack jobs like you lady. I confronted a black man once for forcibly touching my family called him the N word I got arrested thrown out of my apartment and guess what a month later he staved two white guys for doing the same thing I did! Why wasn’t that main stream news??

  36. “But ultimately, if Zimmerman hadn’t been carrying a gun, the confrontation that he initiated that night in February when he shot the 17-year-old dead might have been nothing more than a fistfight, if that.”

    There is no evidence to support this conjecture. What would have made Martin stop? The jury disagreed with her or they would have convicted Zimmerman of something

    • The “it might have only been a fistfight” crowd seem not to have noticed that Martin, according to testimony, continued straddling and pounding Zimmerman even after witness Good, very nearby, yelled at him to stop and announced he was calling 911. That’s some mere fistfight, eh?

    • Well, if Martin initiated the attack, as the evidence indicated, then there’s a good chance she was correct.

    • A couple of things are disturbing from Jeantel’s interview on CNN. From her interview, she said the word “cracka” is used to describe someone who “acts like they are police” or a “security guard.” Then she went on to say that the blame was on Zimmerman(GZ) for not calmly approaching Martin (TM) and asking him what he was doing and that TM would have politely explained what he was doing and would still be alive today. These statements bears one to ask, how did she or Martin know to use that term to describe GZ. IMHO, if TM really used that description he knew GZ was part of the neighborhood watch. Why else would he use that term? There is likely more to the phone conversation that she is not telling and that the prosecution does not want to be come out.

      I know this will offend a few, but thieves, break-in specialist, burglars, and such also put their own versions of BOLOs out on neighborhood watch members, noisy neighbors, etc. And just as noted about the phone conversation, there is likely more to come out about TM and his in school/out of school activities. In short, it’s not over by a long shot.

      • Oh, it’ll blow over much like the OJ Simpson lynching, as soon as there’s another sensational mass murder in some gun-free zone somewhere. Or some celeb will flash a boob or something, and the sheeple, with the attention span of a gnat, will be on to the next scandal.

        • Normally I would agree but 2014 is just around the corner and the ‘books’ that most certainly will be coming have not hit the shelves yet will put this DGU front and center again.

          • I’ve heard that it really rankled the NY Times that John Stossel’s “No They Can’t” was stuck on their best-seller list.

  38. I think the takeaway lesson here is that you don’t bring Skittles to a gunfight. Justice for Trayvon would be a Darwin Award.

    • Again, there is evidence GZ’s great-grandfather was black. I posted the link. Go find it. This could have changed the entire narrative.

  40. I guess the twits need to go look at the FBI UCR report. They will see that on the average from year to year ~ 2.5x more people are killed each year by fists/feet than they are by rifles. Furthermore, how do you know thugs are going to only assault you with fists? There are also ~ 1700 people killed each year with knifes.

  41. no doubt about it… the escalation of force that Zimmerman chose was unnecessary. You can certainly make the argument that Zimmerman’s use of his weapon was in response to a “disparity of force”, and that might be enough reasonable doubt.

    and as far as “bringing a gun to a fist fight” goes… I bring a gun EVERYWHERE I am legally allowed, and there isn’t a government on this planet that can force me to allow someone to do me harm, at any level.

  42. Okay…. While I do like to keep myself appraised of the matter, if I wanted 24 hour George zimmerman coverage, I’d watch fox or cnn…

    • 0351
      So your saying that you’ve been brought here by force or threat of bodily harm? Your eyes are propped open with tooth picks and you have no control over your computer? Poor victim, best you call the police and a WAAMbulance

  43. Trayvon dresses like a burglar, skulks through other peoples’ yards at night – in the rain no less – like a burglar, in a community plagued with burglary, for that matter Trayvon actually was a burglar on other nights of the week.

    But a neighborhood watchman who’d view this with any suspicion could only be a racist. GZ only followed him because he was black.

    Trayvon doesn’t like being followed, so like any civilized adult his response is to sucker punch GZ, breaking his nose, and then bash his head into the concrete over and over. GZ is a fat little man with a desk job, 5 or 6 inches shorter than Trayvon.

    This is “just a fistfight, if that”, and GZ apparently should have laid back and enjoyed it. That he didn’t could only be because Trayvon was black.

    If the only oppressed black man they can find to rally behind is a thug that was oppressed from beating a man to death I’d say maybe it’s time to find a new cause.

  44. Her comment is just about as stupid as if Trayvon wasn’t born, this incident would not have happened. If Trayvon would have been locked up in a Juvenile detention center for what he had done in the past, this incident would not have happened. I believe if he was innocent an knew some one was following him, he should have kept going home and told his Dad, or called 911, instead of waiting around and confronting who was following him. The truth is that he had gotten away with so much stuff in the past because he was black, that he thought he could attack who was following him, beat the hell out of him and get away with it.

  45. Since hatchet face Petula is a big fan of ifs, here are a few ifs for her.

    If Zimmerman had been black no one would know or care about this incident. Zimmerman would have never been charged, because the black community would have never demanded the perversion of our justice system that lead to his being charged and the trial that followed.

    If Trayvon had not been black no one would know or care about this incident. Zimmerman would have never been charged, because the black community would have never demanded the perversion of our justice system that lead to his being charged and the trial that followed. And Trayvon would have probably not been named Trayvon.

    If Trayvon had been Hispanic and Zimmerman Black no one would know or care about this incident. Zimmerman would have never been charged, because the black community would have never demanded the perversion of our justice system that lead to his being charged and the trial that followed. If for some reason it did go to trial, Geshawn Zimmerman still should have been found not guilty on all charges, because this is a clear example of self defense against an aggressor.

    If Obama had never gotten involved this would have been over long ago.

    If Zimmerman had been found guilty it would have sent two clear messages. First and foremost it would have shown that our justice system is no longer functional but instead a puppet of political leaders and the whims of those who threaten anarchy when things don’t go their way. Both groups getting a taste of this would have found it very delicious and very addictive and sought ever more until our country is no more. And second, it would have encouraged more violence in the already more violence prone young black male population because it would have made it a serious crime for any other race to defend themselves from a good African beat down.

    If holder and Obama decide to go after the federal civil case, it will be but one more piece of evidence that they could care less about this country and what it stood for. It will also further strain race relations, where now most Americans believe blacks are the most racist, largely due to Obama and Holder and their efforts.

    And finally; if Petula diets a lot she may be able to become more attractive, but sadly there is no cure for her bad case of stupid.

    • You left out if Zimmerman was gay this not have gone trial. He would have been defending himself against homophobia. You know how homophobic “those people” are.

  46. I’ve heard many liberal talking heads over the last few days emphasize that GZ was found not guilty, but not proven innocent. The conclusion: we must agitate for change. The very few times I’ve seen an interviewer call them on it and ask them exactly what should be changed, the stand your ground law comes up, even though that law had no place in this trial. If the interviewer makes it clear that the duty to retreat doesn’t matter when the ability to retreat has been taken away, the leftist commentator promptly shuts up or changes the subject. Why?

    Because there are only a few logical conclusions when they scream that Trayvon didn’t get justice because GZ was not “proven innocent.” They either want the burden of proof shifted from the prosecution to the defense, direct mob influence on the criminal justice system (which has already been effectively achieved), or to make use of deadly force in self defense illegal for private citizens. Any of these would be so fundamentally alien to our culture, so anti-American, and (when practiced in other places) so destructive to human liberty, that the agitators dare not state their goals openly.

    Or maybe I’m assuming malice where stupidity or greed are sufficient. Maybe most of them are either just ignorant and pissed off, or stirring things up to get money and attention. But I find it very difficult to believe people with legal backgrounds like Obama, Holder, and others could fail to understand exactly what they are doing.

  47. “[T]he confrontation that he initiated that night in February”… Incorrect. If you followed the trial in detail, had a little more journalistic integrity, and had a modicum of knowledge on how the US Justice system works, you’d know that the jury acquitted Zimmerman. In post-trial interviews, jurists have stated that they felt Zimmerman feared for his life. In addition, the finding of the jury was that Zimmerman was the victim, Martin the attacker. Following someone to report their location to the police is not initiating a conflict. Doubling back to get in someone’s face, and shoving and then punching them is initiating conflict. Ultimately, Martin paid the ultimate price for his lack of judgement.
    Now, let’s address the real problem in this case, in the violence in Chicago, and that brings down young man after young man – the thug culture in the USA. It stretches across all races. It breeds contempt for society’s norms in the name of “being a man.” Young men with promising futures of all races get drawn into this culture and end up dead or in prison. It’s time the press and the leadership of this country address this issue. It’s not a race issue. It’s a culture issue.

  49. I always learned you don’t start a fight, you end it. If GZ didn’t have a gun, he might have been killed or at least severely injured. He defended himself from the one who initiated the fight. TM was stupid for starting a fight.

  50. Once you’re on the ground the fight becomes exponentially more dangerous. My dad, may he rest in peace, was an airborne ranger who fought in two wars, and taught me fights are not fair, you use whatever means necessary to put the person on the ground and make sure they stay there. Marquess of Queensberry rules be damned. So yes, you should bring a gun to a fist fight.

    • My dad was an original member of the 505th PI. He was also a prewar regular and loved From Here to Eternity. When I first watched it with him I asked if ever boxed. He told me “hell no, why you want to get into a fair fight.”

      • Mine as well 505PIR. Though he did not attach to that til he was stationed in Japan. He hit the beaches in Normandy and was captured during the Battle of the Bulge. After he was liberated and the war in Europe was over he transferred to the 11th in Japan.

        He went on to Korea and got out after that war. He figured if he was in 3 it would not be a charm.

  51. First thing I learned before carrying, other than firearm safety and ccw tips, is that IF you wouldnt do it WITHOUT A firearm, you should 100% not do it with one.

    God, its like yall find the most horrific looking women to post up, the irony is that theyre all “journalists” (read: sniveling koolaid drinking propagandists) and/or want to disarm us. Except for Kristen Weiss of course.

  52. “If Trayvon Martin hadn’t been black, he might still be alive today. But ultimately, if Zimmerman hadn’t been carrying a gun, the confrontation that he initiated that night in February when he shot the 17-year-old dead might have been nothing more than a fistfight, if that. And everyone knows you don’t bring a gun to a fistfight.”

    Ridiculous statement. If Trayvon was white and “attacked” Zimmerman and broke his nose and beat him into the ground, Zimmerman would have likely performed exactly the same actions and shot the attacker. Ms. Dvorak is playing the Race card. Zimmerman was not known to be a racist. There is no intent, no motive, and no evidence to suggest that Zimmerman followed Martin down the alley to “eliminate him.”

    If Zimmerman hadn’t been carrying a gun then who knows – we can play the “what if” game all day. If Zimmerman had brought a knife then they may have wrestled over it “quietly” and then Zimmerman may have died by knife (or Trayvon) and there would be no shot to alert the neighbors to call 911. Or someone could have died by broken tea bottle, or by rock. “What if” games are ridiculous.

    Everyone knows you don’t bring a gun to a fistfight??? Zimmerman likely wasn’t expecting a fistfight. Why is there a fistfight anyways??? Now that people know that if they beat someone down they might get shot – maybe they should go ahead and not start that fistfight. How about you don’t start a fistfight ending in you getting shot??? Or how about you keep your hands to yourself and cease your criminal activity??? Ridiculous statement.

  53. Zimmerman is the face of legal gun ownership gone terribly wrong

    Petula Dvorak is the face of pizza delivery gone terribly wrong.

  55. No, Trayvon Martin would be alive today if he had engaged in a dialog rather than starting a fight.

  56. You know, she and the Post editorial staff need to take a stroll along the Anacostia Park riverside trail at around 2 am on a hot Saturday night. Or right after the clubs close. And check out the tennis and basketball courts. And parking lots. And leave their illegal pistols home. It’s called “attitude adjustment.”

    • Maybe they could take a stroll around Central Park in New York City after midnight with out any weapons or body guards. There are parts of any city in the U.S. that I wouldn’t walk around in the day time or at night even if I was armed.

  61. Dont bring a gun to a fistfight? How about dont pick a fight with a guy who has a gun. Or if you do, dont then tell him youre going to kill him. Or if you do, dont then try and make good on your promise. Based on the statemants of the only person who was actually there, Martin confronted Zim, struck the first blow, made a verbal threat aginst his life, and lastly tried to take control of the gun. Zim didnt resort to the use of the firearm until he thought Martin was reaching for it.

  62. Best bit I have seen on this – quote from Novelist Stephen Hunter:

    “2.) “If the races were reversed . . . ” This game must be played fairly to have any meaning whatsoever. If you want to “reverse the races” you must also reverse the circumstances. Thus a theoretical opposite would be something like this: A short, overweight black 29-year-old male with college experience, bourgeoise aspirations and a history of community involvement spied a teenager lurking in a hoodie in a neighborhood which had had a number or recent burglaries. The teenager turned out to be 4 inches taller than he, if somewhat lighter, an athlete, a Mixed Martial Arts trained fighter, a school suspendee (after suspicion of burglary) and a hispanic gang-banger wannabe. His emails would ultimately reveal the climate of emotional, moral and intellectual poverty in which he lived. After being instructed by police dispatchers not to follow, the black male returned to his truck. He was jumped and sucker-punched by the hispanic youth, jumped on, beaten MMA style and somehow managed to fire on shot with a legally carried weapon, which, supine and injured, he managed nevertheless to remove from a holster under his own bulk. In those circumstances, would the 29-year-old black be indicted in Florida? Not a chance.”

    Yup

  63. “If Trayvon Martin hadn’t been black, he might still be alive today…”

    “If Trayvon Martin hadn’t pummeled someone into the ground, he might still be alive today…”

    Fixed it for you.

    The other side doesn’t seem to be taking the circumstances of the events into account.

    If you’re going to punch someone, repeatedly, then that someone you are punching has the right to defend themselves, from blocking those punches with their hands, all the way up to shooting you with a gun. Race is not a factor here.

    The one eye-witness to the event stated that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman punching him into the ground. I don’t care if you’re old, or young, black, white, yellow, or a big super-intelligent purple slug from beyond the Moon, you have the right to self-defense if you’re stuck between punches coming from one side and hard concrete on the other, and if that includes shooting the person punching you into the ground, then Tough Sh!t to the person punching you into the ground.

    If you don’t want to be shot, don’t punch random strangers.

    • Funny thing is, the “Zimmerman” in that pic really does have a shoulder thingy that goes up!

  65. So, Petula Dvorak knows as much about the dangers of fistfights as she does about guns.

  66. Over these last few days, I have been disheartened by the lack of testosterone on TTAG. John Wayne is somewhere rolling over in his grave. What happened to good old fashioned fisticuffs? Real men are a dying breed and have instead been replaced by droves of soft-skinned, gun-toting mall ninjas who are afraid to venture outside of their homes and into a diverse society. I submit the Duke in one of his finest moments…

    Scene from The Quiet Man: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0JEZZxKfw0

    Wow, you mean to tell me that a fight broke out and nobody had to pull their gun because they were in imminent danger and feared death?! That’s just crazy talk…

    • John Wayne typically had a hog leg and a looped Winchester. I don’t think he would have gone down a dark ally without that Winchester. Think Eldorado and Rio Lobo. The fact is, TM could have been as easily armed with a gun or knife as not. In fact, he apparently had one somewhere based on texted pics. Plus, the boxers in Quietman were going by Queensberry Rules. Plus, boxers have been known to get killed, think Duk Fu Kim & Ray Mancini.

      • Coulda, woulda, shoulda…

        Boxers have been killed, so what? People have been killed by walking underneath icicles and we don’t go around shooting them off of houses. Just stop. Stop being afraid of everything. Stop making GZ your personal John Wayne. Stop making this guy your hero. Some TTAGers are so quick to point out TM’s questionable activity, while completely ignoring GZ’s actual criminal history. Just stop.

        • Actually, you were the one that brought at the coulda woulda shoulda. Your comments about the Duke were way the fuck off base. He had that iconic Winchester and you know damn well he would have taken it down a dark rainy ally.

          Furthermore, the criminal history on GZ was Ben Crump spin. He had no felony record. TM did in fact have problems with pot, vandalism and stealing. Furthermore, he was trying to time share a gun.

          • Please don’t bring pot into this. That’s kind of like stigmatizing potatoes because every convicted rapist has consumed potatoes. It just doesn’t follow. In fact, I think part of the reason that the bloodthirsty warmongers hate and fear pot is that it makes you peaceful.

            • When it involved growing and trafficking in the underworld and leads to other kinds of chemical dependency, it is a factor. Plus, I know people that are addicted to the crap so much that they aren’t very productive. It is also a check box on Form 4473. The same thing with alcohol. I am all for a good beer, wine etc. However, chemical dependency on it is a bad thing as well and DUI are very bad. So is driving around stoned.

              • Now are you saying Trayvon Martin was “growing and trafficking” in Mr. Zimmerman’s neighborhood?

                Please explain.

              • Go back and read. I never said he was growing in Zim’s neighborhood. He just got there. He did text pics of a pot plant and was known to sell at school. He was apparently a frequent user as well. He was also into lean or purple draink.

                Also listen to the full recording and not the altered one. Zim stated that “he acts like he is on something.”

              • I’m sorry, but you sound almost like the grabbers here. “Oooh, some criminal used a gun, so let’s ban guns for everybody!” There are tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of perfectly peaceful, otherwise law-abiding potheads who never cause any problem and never “graduate” to “hard” drugs. (and, just FYI, legally prescribed pharmaceuticals cause more problems than the illicit ones.)

                Like I said, what you’re doing here is the functional equivalent of wanting to ban potatoes because every convicted rapist and murderer was known to have consumed potatoes.

              • What the heck are you talking about? I don’t want to ban a damn thing regarding guns. I am as pro ccw and open carry as you can get. I think our 776.013 is an excellent law including the (3) which is the SYG component and think the self-defense laws need left alone. You must have confused me with Grande. What I said was is TM was stoned and it was part of what got him in the situation he was in and his parents never took any responsibility for any of the suspensions from school.

                Like I said before, you need to re-read my posts.

        • You were the one that brought the coulda woulda stuff in here with a weak John Wayne analogy. You blew it. GZ never had a criminal history, that was failed Crump spin. TM had a history of pot, vandalism, and theft. He was also attempting to time share a gun.

          You implied John Wayne would have used fists like in the Quiet Man. Well that was about a boxer that killed a guy with his fist. Furthermore, he was known for the looped lever Winchester and would have gone down a rainy dark ally with it given he didn’t know if the guy was up to no good or armed or not, a la Eldorado or Rio Lobo.

        • The Quiet Man was about a boxer that quit boxing because he killed a guy in the ring. Furthermore, both the brother and the Duke character were fighters that knew each other and went by the Queensberry Rules. TM never had the ethics and morals of either character or he wouldn’t have been suspended multiple times nor would he have been trying to coop on a gun .

          I haven’t seen anyone that compared a dumpy Hispanic/Jewish guy with the Duke.

          You introduced the coulda would shoulda regaridng Wayne. He was know for the Winchester with looped lever and went down dark streets with it in Eldorado and Rio Lobo. GZ never had criminal convictions. That was failed Crump spin.

        • Blue, I didn’t say GZ had criminal convictions. I just said he had a criminal history. Are you refuting GZ’s criminal history? For instance, I’ve never been charged with a crime, so I have no criminal history. GZ has been charged with crimes, therefore he has a criminal history. It’s a searchable history .

          http://myclerk.myorangeclerk.com/default.aspx

          Just stop.

          • You just stop. I said good point, yet you say wrong again. You gun ban types are all the same. You are not just wrong again, you have never been right. The assault charge occurred in a bar for merely touching the officers uniform. The other was over reaction from a spat with an old girl friend. You don’t know, somebody may have a file on you. However, that isn’t a criminal record.

      • Actually, the correlation between testosterone and violent behavior is a myth. The fact is, testosterone makes a man amorous – violence is caused by a testosterone deficiency.

        • I respectfully disagree, Rich. There is a direct link between high testosterone levels and aggression. Specifically, evidence suggests that aggressive and violent behaviors may stem from hormone imbalances, such as cortisol-to-testosterone levels and vice versa.

          Blue, you’re wrong… again.

          • Dang, ya got me. 😉 When I first heard that assertion, it was presented as a joke. When I read something about testosterone in some thread recently, I was feeling frisky, so threw that out there to see what the reaction would be.

            Heck, it lasted almost 20 hours! ;-D

  67. Get with the program, TTAGers: This is clearly a case of America’s notorious White-Hispanic-Gay-Rapist Community v. Black America.

    Everyone knows that.

    The Race War is “on.” With a twist.

  69. Don’t bring a gun to a fistfight?!?!?! What the hell. He could have been beaten to death. He obviously feared for his life if he pulled the trigger.

    Everybody thinks is easy to kill someone because they are holding a gun. It’s not. Even in self defense. Ask someone who’s had to do it. And I stress “had” to… not “wanted” to.

  71. When I look at this case, I blame Trayvon’s father, who knew full well that he was raising a troubled young man on the wrong path and apparently did NOTHING to redirect him. The man chose to go out with his girlfriend and leave the kids at home, then wasn’t worried enough to check up on Trayvon’s activities when his son wasn’t there when he got home.

    Some might say that there wasn’t much that Dad could do, since Trayvon was 17. I would disagree. He KNEW that his son had an extensive disciplinary history at his school. He SHOULD HAVE KNOWN what his son was up to and the sort of messages hidden on his phone. The fact that Trayvon had taken steps to hide his messages suggests that at least one of his parents was checking up on him, but attentive parents would have noticed that Trayvon was doing things behind their back.

    If Trayvon’s father hadn’t abrogated his responsibilities and had redirected his son instead of letting him become a wanna-be thug, Trayvon might have become a successful young man instead of a corpse.

  72. Hey, dont blame Petra for this sloppy propaganda puff piece. She’s obviously the go-to radical progressive mom-of-two who’s working on a deadline on a Monday after the “outrage” that the DOJ and Florida Special Prosecutor did not get their way.

    Really, you have to hold the editor, Lynda Robinson, responsible for its her job to edit the “narratives” at the Local section, per this bio: “Lynda Robinson is an editor at The Washington Post, where she spent seven years assigning and editing narratives for the Post’s Sunday magazine. In July, she began overseeing the newspaper’s coverage of social issues, ….

    I’m guessing she got the Talking Points Memo, and dutifully gave it to the duty ‘mom’ “columnist”, who obviously doesn’t know what she is talking about, and strung some irrelevant factoids together to support the party line.

    Thats how you get something in the “news” without any of the traditional editorial control or oversight for clarity, logic, facts, or relevancy for LOCAL news, except the shameless plug for Obama’s press release statement in conclusion.

    The once proud Washington Post continues to circle the drain.

    • The people in the Soviet Union in the 70’s had a saying about the two main state run progaganda organs; Pravda (“Truth”), and Izvestia (“News”).

      Vy Izvestia, ne pravda, Vy Pravda, ne izvestia.

      In the News there is no truth, and in the Truth, there is no news.

      One could simply substitute WAPO for Pravda, and NYT for Izvestia, to get a sense of how the State Run Media works in the US today.

  73. When OJ was found innocent “The System Worked” When Zman was found innocent “The system is broken”
    This says everything about our Crypto-Commie dominated media and politicos that needs be said

  74. A fistfight between two adults is a potentially lethal encounter. I let Sam Colt be my guide in these instances.

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