The day after the Congressional baseball shooting, NPR’s On Point tackled the issue of America’s political bifurcation, and the impact of the hot rhetoric surrounding it. There was a lot of talk about “finding the middle ground” and “compromise.” What wasn’t said: there isn’t any middle ground. Or room for compromise.

On guns — the issue sparking the debate — there are two sides. Those who want the Uncle Sam to live up to its constitutional obligation to not infringe on Americans’ right to keep and bear arms, and those who want to infringe on Americans’ right to keep and bear arms.

Supporting “reasonable regulations” on guns — as allowed by the Pyrrhic victory known as the Supreme Court’s Heller decision — isn’t “compromise.” It’s capitulation.

Universal background checks? Infringement. Magazine capacity limits? Infringement. Gun violence restraining orders? Infringement. “Assault weapons” ban? Infringement. Banning firearms purchases for people on the super-secret Terrorist Watch List? Infringement. It’s all “reasonable regulation” favored by people who support civilian disarmament.

There is no reconciling the pro- and anti-gun rights sides of the Second Amendment. Either you’re for the Constitution’s protection of firearms freedom or your against it.

On the wider “left-right” issues — health care, taxes, government programs of every sort — the devil isn’t in the details. It’s a matter of overarching philosophy. One side wants the government to take care of sh*t (e.g., “economic inequality”) and wants individuals to sacrifice civil rights for society’s benefit. The other side wants less government and individual liberty.

On Point’s commentators predicted a political realignment. Both parties would eventually create politicians representing the “middle ground,” where Americans on both sides could join hands and sing a rousing chorus of Kumbaya.

One guest claimed that the Republican-led federal government was “out of step” with the wishes of this mythical middle ground. Perhaps so. But her assertion that America hungers for an Abraham Lincoln-type politician to forge a utopian left-right coalition is ridiculous. The host quickly pointed out that Mr. Lincoln’s lauded coalition was soon embroiled in a civil war.

Yes, there is that.

Any such internecine conflict would — theoretically — pit states against each other and/or the federal government. It’s hard to imagine a Trump-led federal government going to war against a state, or cracking down on liberty to the point where small government types mount a ground-up insurrection. Just as it’s hard to see California messing with Texas.

The Trump presidency can’t/won’t repair the fault lines between statists and (true) libertarians, which do bifurcate along state lines. You know, blue states vs. red states. But I can’t see this leading to civil war.

The American middle class has too much to lose to try to overthrow the U.S. government, even in the face of tyranny (soft or hard). Ipso facto. Think of all the liberties small government Americans have already surrendered without rising up, from gun control to “free speech safe zones” to the aforementioned Terrorist Watch List (with its no-fly provisions).

The lower class, on the other hand, has everything to lose. Should the U.S. government stop funding the welfare state, mostly likely due to economic collapse, millions of Americans would be instantly destitute. The same fate that the South believed would befall them should slavery be banned. Without government financial assistance, people stuck on the bottom rung of the economic ladder will riot.

Would these massive riots constitute civil war? In a way, yes. The rioters would be pitted against police and then, possibly, government troops. They would fall under the sway of leaders promising them reinstatement of a socialist state/guaranteed paycheck. As they do now. Only violence would be their stock in trade.

How that would play out is anyone’s guess. But our society, our liberty, would suffer. Again. Still. Because if you think about it, gun control was/is/and will be designed to keep down the lower classes.

So why “allow” the lower classes to keep and bear arms?

Because there’s not much downside; the criminal class amongst them are already armed. But it’s their natural, civil and Constitutional right to keep and bear arms. It’s important for people who’ve been historically disenfranchised to see that those of us who believe in these rights believe in these rights for all.

By the same token, you can’t credibly tell people on the lower end of the economic scale that you want them to fully realize the American dream while denying them all of their civil rights.

So it is what it is. The welfare state is a powder keg. Weaning Americans off the government teat — creating quality education and conditions for gainful employment across America — is the only way to defuse this inherently dangerous state of affairs. Suggesting that the answer lies in engendering “civil discourse” is a great landing at the wrong airport.

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147 COMMENTS

  1. Ummm…OK. What yer point? Nothing is ever “fixed” by the gubmint. Keep your powder dry?

  2. I’m a big fan of alternate history and “What-if” scenarios, my two cents is this;
    By the year 2117 (2170 at the most) there will be no USA. in all likelihood, it will be several smaller countries with vastly different political systems and social views, which caused the Union to split in the first place. I don’t doubt there will be violence, but it’s more along the lines of terrorist attacks and city-wide riots than full-on blue and grey uniforms charging at each other in a field.

    • Then maybe an amicable divorce, so to speak, would be the best thing. I can completely understand California and Texas, for instance, not wanting to be part of the same nation, not wanting the other to influence how it conducts business.

      So, why force it?

      If it’s an inevitability (and I think you might be right) lets spare ourselves the heartache and bloodshed and start on a workable, peaceful plan for separation now.

      • YES. Reasonable people can disagree. Irreconcilable differences should lead to an amicable breakup.

        Forcing/subjugating the other side and enslaving them to live under a hostile regime? That’s so 1860’s.

        • Exactly! In all seriousness, read Thucydides. Blood is not thicker than water. Civil war will bring about race, wealth, political ideology, and any other dividing factor as a notice for war.

      • That peaceful separation has been tried once. You have your government, we have our loose hands off goverment. Everyone is happy…. What we could call the liberals of the time started a war over it….

      • That’s the way I see it. If CA, MA, etc. want to drift further toward collectivist authoritarianism, let them. It will cause human suffering (at least for average person, if not for the connected), as leftism inevitably does, but that’s free will. We may not even have to split, at least not initially. Just go back to constitutional federalism. If the federal government can only operate within legal limits, no state can force their views on another, as I believe was intended.

        However, I don’t think the left will go for this. The rank and file useful idiots will see this as losing. The DC ruling class and their crony elites would rightly see this as an impediment to their ambitions, both in the short term because they will lose important tools of control, and in the long term because they know they cannot stand up to the comparison long term.

        • The Left definitely will not go for that. Leftism is about control; their entire issue with the right is that they see us all as unwashed ignoramuses who have been allowed to run around off the leash and attempting to think for ourselves, which, in their opinion, we are unable to do; they view us much the same way as people view wild, rabid dogs.
          All these social justice and equality issues the left takes up are nothing but control issues for them; financial and social, and thought control off the individual citizen. The left’s entire agenda is control, and as such, they simply would not be content to allow an uncontrolled people and land adjacent to their own; they’d be compelled to attempt to control it.

    • Smaller countries makes no sense. With the unlikely exception of Texas*, I expect the liberals to have the US under world government in the next century or two at the outside.

      *Texas was 52% to 48% in last year’s presidential election. Texas has the background and attitude, but they belie reality.

      • There hasn’t been a single Democrat elected to any statewide office in Texas in almost 20 years and that’s not likely to change soon.

        • I’m sorry, but no. California in the 1984 presidential elections was 57% to 41% Regan, and Texas last election was 57% to 41% Trump. It’s not that far off, I don’t think.

        • Regan had something like 87% of the popular vote?!? How many other republican presitintial canidates have carried California in the last 40 years? it’s not really a good idea to compare the most popular president in at least the last 100 years to what MIGHT be the least popular president in US history.

      • A country without Commiefornia, Nut York, Connecticut “the unconstitutional state” and Massmurderachusetts and a few others might work out just fine.

        • @Bob – Misery it may be, but it’s where all the people with any amount of backbone move from these other states.

      • Joel, you have a point. In 1976 it was 49%-47% Ford over Carter, and in 1992 it was 32%-46% Clinton over Bush.

        I still think that Texas is not the impregnable Conservative stronghold it’s supposed to be, and, because of that, we need to stay active and not get complacent.

        • Texas has a HUGE blue target on it. The Dems understand if they can flip Texas by immigration the war to control the presidency indefinitely is just about over.

        • The biggest problem is that we can’t stop all the carpet baggers from coming here because they destroyed the economy in their state with stupid economic policies.

    • Never gonna happen without blood. Too much money and power tied up in the federal government for them to “allow” commodoties driven states like nebraska, the dakotas, alaska, or texas to leave without a fight… aunt nancy and uncle chuck would go ballistic.

    • Yes, the way it was during the Napoleonic Wars and earlier in Europe. A very likely scenario barring environmental collapse.

  3. -Left gives up on taking away the 2nd SCOTUS ruled

    -Rights gives abortion SCOTUS ruled

    -Right gives up homophobia

    -Left gives up open boarders we are a nation of laws immigrates are fine when done legally

    So on and so forth that’s compromise. Give in on some in exchange for others.

    • “Left gives up open boarders…”

      It’s not renters that’s the problem, it’s illegal visitors.

    • You see, you also lack a fundamental understanding of the positions. The fact that “the SCotUS ruled” is irrelevant to people who consider what’s happening an abomination. The SCotUS also ruled that slavery was enforceable across state lines and that segregation was ok. Should the republicans have given up at that point?

      Then you proceed to use BS SJW inventions like “homophobia” and you lose any semblance of an argument.

      Finally, you have people like me, who would rather slit our own throats than to give one inch to the political left.

    • Norincojay– You can surrender your freedoms, but leave me out of it– I wouldn’t agree to anything you espouse.

      • You guys are just as bad as the left.

        What freedom did I suggest giving up?

        I guess SCOTUS is worthless.

        What you people suggest is a never ending battle.

        • Jay, any time you approve abortion, you have crossed the line. I don’t care if scotus approves it or not- nor is it ‘compromise’.

          Any time someone tells me ‘I have to compromise’, I know I am about to lose more freedom than they. Period. If that were not so, there would be no need for ‘compromise’.

          Period.

        • Really? So we’re following an ideology responsible for 100,000,000 dead bodies in the 20th century alone? Get real. There can be no compromise with communists. Anybody who thinks otherwise is basically a 21st century Chamberlain.

    • News flash – just because I don’t agree with your life style doesn’t mean I’m afraid of you. And state sponsored murder isn’t a compromise, it’s evil.

      Here’s where I’ll compromise. You can live your life and I’ll live mine. And we’ll both respect each other’s rights afforded us by our founding documents. Deal? Compromise complete. The government doesn’t need to be involved except to make sure this happens. Everything else we hash out among ourselves.

  4. It wouldn’t be red state vs. blue state. More like urban vs. rural. I live in upstate New York. This is flyover country. It’s red. It’s much closer to rural Ohio or Pennsylvania than to NYC or New England. No one here is going to war against citizens of a state with a conservative government. Maybe our hideous Governor Benito Cuomo can drum up some support in NYC, but outside of there almost everyone hates him. Urban progressives who live in upstate’s tiny, dying cities would quickly find themselves in hostile territory.

    • I know the feeling. I live in red california (not commie red, but conservative red) and spend 40 hours a week stealing money from san francisco to fund my ideology.

  5. Terrific post. Very thought-provoking.

    Another potential option is a split between the red and blue states a la Kurt Schlichter’s “People’s Republic” and “Indian Country.” Great books if you haven’t read them.

  6. -Left gives up on taking away the 2nd SCOTUS ruled

    -Rights gives abortion SCOTUS ruled
    -Right gives up homophobia

    -Left gives up open boarders we are a nation of laws immigrates are fine when done legally

    So on and so forth that’s compromise. Give in on some in exchange for others.

  7. All media outlets need to give moderates of both parties the majority of airtime. Right now they put the extremists on for ratings. That means we actually have zero news channels right now. Because they don’t care about educating viewers, but just getting ratings. That makes them entertainment. All of them. I’ll repeat all of them.

    Celebrities that spew hate and violence should be shunned by the MSM not encouraged with their tweets spread around even more. Coverage needs to have both sides of policy not just one side and paint the other side as “crazy” or “immoral.” Yes there are two logical arguments to just about all mainstream republican and democrat policies. We current don’t get that anywhere. All information related to a topic must be included not just cherry picked info to push a narrative.

    All primaries need to be open and not closed. We need a debate about this. Get rid of party affiliation for voters. Only politicians need those labels. It’s an obstacle with more negatives than positives in a representative democracy. But let’s debate both sides of it. Saving the two party system is not a plus for closed primaries. Politicians are the ones that don’t like this idea.

    Closed primaries lead politicians to pander to the extremist views in their party. Open primaries will force politicians to have moderate views to win the majority of votes and could also help with our stuck two party system.

    • Um, no. All primaries should be closed and not open. Anything else leads to infiltration by the opponent voter base to make sure the other side runs the least popular candidate.

    • Open primaries are a violation of several civil rights. The whole point is for the party to pick who the party runs. If a candidate can’t make the party base happy then having a party is meaningless. The only way I can see open primaries working is if voting in a party primary locks in your general vote for the next three cycles.

    • Norincojay – you need to go back to 1st grade civics and learn something about history and government in the US and in the world. Then preach.

    • “…moderate…” definition of:

      Someone willing to surrender their rights to gain nothing.

    • “Closed primaries lead politicians to pander to the extremist views in their party. Open primaries will force politicians to have moderate views to win the majority of votes”

      Yeah, with open primaries we’ll get moderates like Cruz, W., the HPA sponsor, etc. (The truth is that W. actually was a moderate, compassionate conservative).

  8. Let’s get one thing crystal clear; No one wants a Civil War pt 2. Can you guys even imagine the loss of life? It would be one of the greatest tragedies we could ask for. That’s how this country dies; right from the inside. We really need to figure out a way to live with each other and find some compromise, because America can’t afford another war like that.

    • You assume that wiping out the scourge of cultural Marxism would not be worth it. I disagree.

    • Sure– I’ll compromise with you:
      A) Remove all liberals, democrats, muslims and all illegal persons from my country.

      B) I’ll be sure to close the door behind you.

      C) Don’t expect to return without jumping through more hoops than a gun owner purchasing a new weapon.

    • “We really need to figure out a way to live with each other and find some compromise……..”

      What makes you think the left is willing to compromise a single thing? It seems to me that the only people I ever see “compromising” is the right, and what they usual term as compromise is really nothing more than surrender. Often, the right is so anxious to “compromise” that they surrender without ever firing a shot.

      • Sometimes I wonder if the right has some kind of plan like the left, and then I look at our reps in Congress and realize that most of them couldn’t plan breakfast.

    • The only reliable means to avoid a civil war is for one side or the other to totally capitulate. Then, no need for revolution. No need for civil disorder. No need for carnage. BTW, the cost of a civil war (property, business, money, lives) has never prevented one.

    • Dracon1201,

      Suppose my neighbor wants to have sex with one of my female family members who does NOT want to have sex with him. And the neighbor really, REALLY wants it bad. He thinks about it all the time. His feelings are INTENSE and OVERWHELMING. He claims that it will bring great physical and psychological benefits to himself. He even claims that it will benefit her via the associated increase in heart rate, blood flow, and muscle contractions that she will experience (either as a result of pleasure or resisting). And, as it turns out, the local elected government even supports his desire to have sex with my female family member against her will.

      Please tell me, exactly where should we compromise? Should our compromise be allowing the neighbor to violate my female family member only five times? Only once? Does he only get to fondle her? See her nude?

      Why should we NOT compromise here? Because my neighbor in that hypothetical scenario is STEALING something from my female family member against her will. It doesn’t matter how intense his feelings may be. It doesn’t matter how he claims it will benefit himself, herself, or anyone else. It doesn’t matter that the local elected government supports him. It is flat out WRONG and we should NOT compromise.

      So it is when Progressives tell me that I must give them my money for forced charity. So it is when Progressives tell me that I must let my 14 year-old daughter have an abortion without consulting me first. So it is when Progressives tell me that I cannot have an effective means to defend myself from muggers, spree killers, and animal predators. And on and on it goes.

  9. It’s incorrect to assume a “civl war” in the United States in our modern time would be violent. This isn’t the 1860’s. THe fact we are more likely just to go through a political divorce. If California voted to leave the Union do you think people in Texas or the South would really care? Do you think they would actually take up arms to prevent them from leaving? More likely they’d say “See ya…don’t let the door hit you in the butt on the way out.” Same if Texas decided they wanted out. Sure the progressives would probably scream more about trying to keep them in the Union….but is the average Seattle hipster going to take up arms…put HIS life on the line to keep them in the Union? No way that would happen. Sure, they might tell the Federal Govt to “send in troops”….but the military is mostly Red State folks….do you think THEY would shed blood over this? Again…no way. If you look at the last few decades countries have split up without violence(Cech Republic, etc…hell, even the Soviet Union fell apart without a war)….same would happen here.

    And honestly don’t you think most on both sides realize already we aren’t really a country anymore? Just like a bad marriage where both sides knew it was over years ago but “stuck it out for the kids”….we now see with the kids gone off to college that we don’t have anything in common anymore and should just go our seperate ways.

    Now saying that….if you have an economic collapse all bets are off. In that case the left will do whatever it takes to keep the Red States as they’ll need their money and resources to pay off their welfare programs. Again, don’t know what military they’ll use to do that….but I’m sure they’ll at least try.

    • I think your basic idea of no civil war is totally wrong no matter what reason..

      No State can leave the Union without extreme bloodshed.

      • Manse….I go back to my original point….please tell me WHO do you think would fight to keep Texas from leaving? In 1861 people from all over had no issue fighitng but that type of mentaliy absolutely does not exist today. Do you think “progressives” from blue states would be running out to join State Militias to go fight Texans? Do you think Conservatives from any state sign up? Do you think the average American enjoying their fat middle class lifestyle is going to pick up a gun and go kill or even DIE to keep Texas a part of the US? Sorry…but that is downright laughable. MAYBE some antifa idiots would show up…but that’s about it. Ok…so that leaves the US Militiary. Again…most are from Red States…do you think they would actually follow an order to kill Texans to force them to stay? I know a lot of military people(both current and ex)….and I have asked thim this very question. All said they wouldn’t do it. So who’s left after that? Federal law enforcement? There are roughly 14k FBI agents….even if you got all of them they couldn’t hold down County in Texas.
        In terms of secession and “civil war” we still think like it’s the 1800s. It’s not like that anymore and our thinking needs to change with the times. People don’t have the stomach for war or violence…they just don’t. Fact is that Texas could leave tomorrow if it wanted to and very little (besides a lot of talk and meaningless posturing by the Feds, etc) could really stop it.

        • The thing that would stop Texas from walking away is the lawyers. They would tie every little aspect up in court until the heat death of the universe.

        • Not to argue much, but I believe you have too much faith.

          A Federal occupation of a major city, Martial Law imposed, throw in a few atrocities. Say lining up obvious pregnant women of the opposition against a wall. Perhaps some children of rebels publicly shot for the sins of their parents. Maybe a dirty bomb exploded from stolen hospital nuclear medical waste? Blamed on the Federal govt….

          I have faith too…Faith that the dead will number in the millions.

          Starting a fire is easy, stopping it? not so much.

          I hope you are right.

  10. Once again we are reminded that the sainted Justice Scalia really stabbed us in the back with his “some regulation” and “common use”. He enjoyed being a judge too much and played the game lawyers know so well.
    Electing politicians “in the middle will not solve anything”.
    A Russian political scientist predicted the division of the USA into several regional countries a few years ago. That doesn’t seem like such a bad thing if, especially if we can do it without a war.
    I will vote when I can, I will fight if I must.

    • “A Russian political scientist predicted the division of the USA into several regional countries a few years ago. That doesn’t seem like such a bad thing if, especially if we can do it without a war.”

      And the globalists win. The breakup of The United States of America is essential to the globalist takeover. George Soros more than predicted this, he planned this.

      • Not really. The European Union is probably the best example of what the globalists want; a labyrinthine bureaucracy whose operation is opaque to the people and whose very structure is designed to limit the ability of people it claims to represent to influence it’s operation. I don’t know about you, but this sounds a lot like our federal government to me.

        Personally I think that the more removed, geographically and organizationally, a government is from the people, the less it represents them. I suspect we’ve exceeded the natural limits of both with our current federal government and division would be in the best interests of democratic principles.

  11. Antietam Battlefield. the scariest place I’ve ever been. I’d read various accounts over the years, and imagined a large battlefield where 100,000 men vied over the course of a day. But when you walk up to the top of the hill north of the Visitor’s Center, to the place where the Confederate artillery was originally positioned, you can see the entire battlefield, from one side to the other. Going down into the sunken road, you gaze east over a rise about 10 feet high in front of you about 50′ away, with a swale and then another rise, over which the Union troops came marching shoulder to shoulder, not charging until they crested that last hill, charging down at point blank range into the Confederate troops, protected by the natural trench of the roadway, below. I cannot imagine being one of those men, and the bravery it must have taken to advance into withering gunfire. 3700 dead, nearly 20,000 injured. Unbelievable carnage.

    • Google ‘smithsonian spotsylvania tree trunk’ -22″ tree trunk shot to pieces – saw it at the Smithsonian – destroyed from small arms fire…32,000 casualties in 20 hours.

      I would favor East & West Coasts splitting off from Central USA. They can keep the ever-increasing welfare load, unsustainable government pensions, unlimited immigration, abortion on demand, living-breathing rule of laws, control, unlimited government spending. Flyover country would do very well with limited taxes, abundant energy, and about all of the soldiers that volunteer for the US Armed forces. We could then focus on protecting our country, not ‘projecting American power and soldiers’ blood’ all over the world, for non-American interests.

      • Being a landlocked country (flyover country) is a non-trivial disadvantage for and economy. Being a landlocked country bordered on three sides by implacable enemies is likely to be excruciatingly unsuccessful (no, Texas ports will not save MiddleLand; too easily blockaded). Do not, for a moment, believe that hostile CoastalLands would leave MiddleLand in peace.

        • Under the premise of an amicable split, the Gulf Coast has plenty of ports for the country. Houston, Galveston, Beaumont, Baton Rouge, New Orleans, and Mobile have a ton of capacity and those are just the ports I can think of.

          The only battle I can remember in Texas was a naval battle. The South didn’t have any vessels. The South won.

        • The “East Coastal” nation would not include South Carolina, Georgia, Florida, or North Carolina – or possibly non-DC metro Virginia ). Those States would be part of Red State America. That gives them a lot more ports (Charleston, Savanna, Tampa, etc. in addition to New Orleans, Mobile, Galveston, etc.).

          Thus, RSA would not be even close to landlocked, though it would lack a Pacific port (maybe keep a San Diego – Arizona corridor).

      • The reasons government pensions are ‘unsustainable’ are due to the fact politicians failed to put earmarked money into pensions. Instead they went into slush funds, the general fund, special pork projects, etc. Blaming pensions for this mess is like blaming the tire and not the nail when you have a flat.

  12. You must live in a fantasy world Robert…

    Must Americans continue to this day reject more guns after what some right-wing nut-bar did.

    But again, I see you refuse to eat humble pie after the numerous incidents here over the past few weeks, What happened in London or the rest of the EU DOES NOT compare to what happens here EVERYDAY.

    This again and again and again and so on does not happen in Canada, Europe, Japan or Australia on a daily basis.

    I’ve been around most of the free world to know your “more guns, less crime” is complete and utter crap.

    Continue to live your fantasy that more guns will make us safe. I do not envy yours or your brainwashed sheep insane delusions.

    Your belief that somehow where going to be at another civil war is wrong and best and insanely delusion straight-jacket logic at worst.

    Trying to start anything sort of a ruckus will get you curbed stomped badly, Especially in the age of smartphones and surveillance.

    You nor anyone has even answered my question…

    “Who is going to protect us from you?, Are you willing to be a DGU (Still a myth) statistic if some poor victim has to be forced to defend themselves from you?. Are you willing to accept that?”

    No one is born evil or irredeemable, All “bad guys” started off as “good guys”, All “illegal” weapons started as “legal”.

    You nor anyone here has ever posted any evidence of any “left wing” attacks in the country when most of the incidents and violent crime in this country has been caused by right-wing nut-bats and doomsday survivalist militia fanatics who drink too much of the “gun rights” kool-aid and listen to Alex Jones or brietbart thinking that the were one day closer to armageddon if we “ban this” or “approve of” that.

    This country’s crime rates were slowly dropping when Americans were owning less and less weapons, But I feel sorry for many Americans that have been brainwashed by snake-oil salesmen that claim we “need guns to make sure that some evil force doesn’t try to control us” and now thanks to that, murders have risen even more and more freaks with a chip on their shoulder have been going out and about harming us.

    I will never fall in line to the fascist propaganda people like you will continue to believe in and none of your corporate-owned fake science called “stats” will change any of it.

    • “…Who is going to protect us from you?…”

      Leave me and mine alone and you won’t need protection from me. Screw with my family, friends or me and I’ll show you what screwing is all about.

      FLAME DELETED

    • “most of the incidents and violent crime in this country has been caused by right-wing nut-bats and doomsday survivalist militia fanatics”

      That is demonstrably false

      “Trying to start anything sort of a ruckus will get you curbed stomped badly”

      And who would do the stomping? The military; most of whom are either right leaning or very conservative? Think they would stomp some fellow Americans on behalf of the progressive left?

      No, not a chance

    • The_Resistance,

      This … does not happen in Canada, Europe, Japan or Australia on a daily basis.

      I’ve been around most of the free world to know your “more guns, less crime” is complete and utter crap.

      What about Mexico, Brazil, South Africa, Columbia, Guatemala, El Salvador, Venezuela, and Hoduras? They are “free countries”, have all the gun control that you dream about, and they have the highest murder rates (with or without firearms) in the world.

      And how about Switzerland and the Czech Republic? They have lots of firearms and extremely low violent crime rates, with and without firearms.

      In other words your assertions are demonstrably false.

    • I really enjoy your trolls. But they ate getting predictable and sadly boring. I suggest you try a conversational approach and refrain from the Lenin rhetoric. Not John. LMAO.

      As for the civil war matter all I can say is don’t wear them vagina outfits. You’re gonna make to good a target. Remember the South has all the guns.

      • Many of the rural areas in the so called ‘blue states’ ie. Illinois, New York, Washington state to name a few have a gun culture that is alive and well and are heavily fortified in some areas and would gladly side up with the south if/when the SHTF…..all one needs to do is look up the 2016 presidential county by county election map and get a good idea where the gun culture is thriving and that my friends is almost 80% of the USA by land area…..much of the fighting in what could resemble a civil war will be concentrated in the largest cities and when the combatants and other citizens begin to run out of resources then you will have a refugee problem with people trying to flee the war zones in search for …..you guessed it….shelter ,water and food.

    • Most of the violent crimes are committed by right wingers? Damn…I didn’t know gang members voted Republican. I may need to rethink my position on their continued existence.

    • The_Resistance, our man in backwards progressive land!

      Always willing to regale us with New Speak and Fake Facts that progressives make up. I just skim over the drivel. SSDD

      I’m not sure how many more of his hate posts I can take, full of micro-aggressions toward us poor under-educated redneck gun owners.

      • Every single thing that he said in his sad little diatribe is utterly false to the point of absurdity. I had to read it several times just to ensure that I was reading what I thought I was reading. I don’t know what alternate reality he is living in, but I definitely don’t want to ever end up there. What a freaking moron!

    • I Really suggest that everyone ignore The Resistance, because The Resistance is unwilling to respond or defend his Communist Propaganda and therefore whatever anyone say to The Resistance will go unanswered. The Resistance is so steeped in there Communist ideology that they are unwilling to hear other arguments.

  13. “The lower class…has everything to lose”.
    Dead on. But do they think that far ahead?

  14. “So why “allow” the lower classes to keep and bear arms?”

    HOLY SH_T – we’re all letting each other, until the next big FU. We do

    A R M I S T I C E

    E V E R Y

    D A Y

    Not an “absence of conflict” but a “cessation of hostilities involving arms”.

    IT’S PLAIN FLESH-LANGUAGE LOGIC

    The Declaration of Independence recites what we value. The Constitution recites how we believe we can uphold it.

    Para. 2nd – Declaration of Independence basically says ‘if the government ain’t getting it done, chuck them and make another, your call’.

    That cannot happen if you have to ask the very people you are going to ‘chuck’ to give you the means to.

    Very few people wanted the first American Revolution, and the rest were not all convinced EVEN AFTER WE WON THE REVOLUTIONARY WAR. We are permanently fettered to our POS who accumulate life’s gifts without the will to raise a hand to do anything more than prevent you from protecting and sustaining it.

    Our Founders, and the Drafters of this Nation said the same damn thing over 235 years ago. Human nature and physics hasn’t changed since then.

    Screw the (D) they fight Alinsky’s war of a thousand cuts until they ruin everything.

  15. Comment read and deleted.

    The comments section is not the place to discuss issues regarding TTAG’s editorial stance or style (unless we post on that topic, which we do).

    If you’d like to discuss it with me personally, or anyone else on staff, email [email protected]. I will respond promptly.

    • Yeah. You lost any claim to credibility when you used the term Trumptard. This sort of bifurcation is exactly what Robert was talking about.

      I for one, reserve the right to punch in the face any person who used the term “Trumptard” in my physical presence. Why? Because it shows an utter disdain for the fact that the overwhelming majority of Americans embraced Trump. (Don’t give me the ‘muh popular vote garbage. We know most DNC votes were never cast by real Americans.)

  16. Whenever people try to claim the “Civil War” was about slavery, remember the words of our greatest President.

    “Many men have many theories about the struggle that went on from 1861 to 1865. Some say it had for its purpose the abolition of slavery. President Lincoln did not so consider it. There were those in the South who would have been willing to wage war for its continuation, but I very much doubt if the South as a whole could have been persuaded to take up arms for that purpose. There were those in the North who would have been willing to wage war for its abolition, but the North as a whole could not have been persuaded to take up arms for that purpose. President Lincoln made it perfectly clear that his effort was to save the Union — with slavery if he could save it that way; without slavery if he could save it that way. But he would save the Union. The South stood for the principle of the sovereignty of the States. The North stood for the principle of the supremacy of the Union.”

    • “…remember the words of our greatest President….”

      I didn’t know George Washington commented on the Civil War– thanks for the education.

      FLAME DELETED

  17. Since the writer talks about Welfare then I will talk about Welfare.
    Anyone can follow the “black” You Tube content creators. White people might be surprised at what black folks are really saying about Donald Trump and welfare cuts.

    Trump Drastically Changes Section 8 in 2017 – Millions Will Lose Their Section 8 Vouchers By Law WOW
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQNXFqBFekw

    Why Black Men Are Celebrating SECTION 8 Welfare CUTS
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKVuUz1G-bA

    “The Section 8 Apocalypse” TONIGHT On “Obsidian Radio: LIVE!”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBQR8VnRi0A

    Brian Anthony Logan
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7tSKoFRvgw

    This is just a very small sample of the talk that is going on about section 8 cuts by President Trump. I hope the president puts an end to the welfare state. I watch very little cable news, because they won’t talk about guns in a positive way or how destructive the welfare state is really is.

    Civil War 2??
    As long as you live outside the gun free zone city limits you will be better off. You may want to check the status of your truck gun. As a black gun owner I’m am.

  19. Can somebody please explain why these clowns get my tax money to spread left wing propaganda?

    • Pwrserge– it’s called ‘taxation without representation’ and as you’re well aware, unconstitutional.

    • Because the constitution is a “living document” that can be ignored.

      So the fact that the US government is NOT given the power to run or even fund a broadcast network is irrelevant.

      • So what? The US government is also not authorized to fund or run museums, parades, or public service announcements. Your point is?

  20. I think we are on a collision course with fate, engineered by 6 media conglomerates through their pundit puppets. The American people hear nothing but invective thinly disguised as news. In that environment of escalating rhetoric you mainstream, you normalize violence as a means to get what you want to the lunatic fringe, OR you enable those who are truly filled with hate at the loss of HRC and cannot see past their Pavlovian conditioning that Trump is illegitimate.

    Revolution is not what we are likely to experience, but a national train wreck. As I’ve stated on other articles, the best we can do is protect ourselves, our families, our friends, our neighbors, and prepare and train for the worst.

    To have a revolution NOW when Trump is in office, when there are still 3 years and change worth of chances to rebuild this country is asinine and downright wrong. We had 8 LONG years of lawlessness, of illegitimacy, and the promise of HRC who was chomping at the bit to lay EO’s and pass bills to neuter and erase the legacy of the 2nd Amendment; a fundamental change that WOULD have lead to revolution. We came very close then, now we are close to the left finally going crazy while armed. THAT will be put down if they come to harm good citizens, and that is not a revolution but a DISSOLUTION of this proud people.

    • I’m not disagreeing with you, but you’re assuming that the left is going to let him stay in office another three years.
      You’re assuming that the republicans will let him stay in office another 3 years. Rush had a very interesting statement on this today.

      He said “there’s a school of thought running around in Washington on Capitol Hill, one of the explanations, when you start asking Republicans, “Why are you not trying to move the Trump agenda? Why are you sitting on your hands? Why do you let Democrats run the show?” One of the answers you get is, “We’re waiting for Pence……….
      There are apparently — I don’t know what the number is, but there are enough Republicans, some in the House, who are convinced that Trump’s gonna be impeached. They are convinced that Trump is toast. And they want to hold off on moving the Trump agenda until he’s gone so it then becomes President Pence……….I think there’s a sizable group of Republicans that think Trump isn’t going to make it………”

      If he is correct, the democrats and republicans may not give him those 3 years and change.

      • You make great points. But impeachment for Democrat lies is a bridge too far, I’m not refuting the possibility, but it would lead to Pence; who imho is a joke. He is the man the owners of this country want, a controllable puppet who can look like he is his own man when in fact he will have the hands of the powerful guiding his actions, which is a plate of dog droppings that no one wants.

        These Republicans who are middle of the road sell outs who are “waiting for Pence” need to get their ears boxed like yesterday. They throw the future of this presidency into turmoil because they are waiting for the Deep State stooge to take the reins and steer this USS America into an ice berg.

        We need the full power of the office of the President to GET TO THE INDICTMENTS AND CHARGES for Hillary’s crimes, her husbands, daughters, son-in-laws actions for running a machine that funneled foreign money into her hands which is not legal; among their many slights to this nation. This precedent MUST BE SET NOW, there is no other way forward as a nation until this CANCER in our system is cut out. Then go after Soros. Burn down the ability of the left to use billionaires money to finance negative change in this country, NOW.

        • Throttle down, bucko. None of which you speak is going to happen. ‘Soap box, ballot box, cartridge box’ – Abraham Lincoln.

  21. Naw, I like him. His ad hominem attacks and easily disproven lies bind us together. He’s like the Onion, but for guns.

  23. We Americans are in a “Cold (for the most part) Civil War” already. Each of the opposing sides absolutely believes their interpretation of the Constitution and their vision for America’s future is the ONLY correct and, most importantly, only “Legitimate” point of view. We are at an impasse that cannot be resolved by any rational means or discourse and engenders no room for compromise.
    As a result of this conflict we are engaged in a process of grappling with the fact that Liberty and Freedom are hard masters. Easy to philosophize and bloviate about, but much harder to practice in the “real world”, particularly when one faction’s definition of Liberty and Freedom only tolerates parroting its “approved” (largely fabricated) “facts” and “memes”, tolerating no other or opposing Point of View.
    “Gun Rights” are merely a piece of the matrix, but they are an excellent illustration of the key theme that the larger mix of issues is about individual rights and individual self-determination exercised by people who are independent thinkers and who accept personal responsibility for their own actions and behavior. This is the foundation of the Constitution and its protection of our rights and liberty.

  24. Garbage garbage garbage. Top to bottom. Ahistorical re slavery and the South for starters but even worse there is no geographic or demographic way to have a civil war now. As far as the solution for our problems stop voting GOP. They’re going to kill us all for tax cuts.

    Democratic Socialist countries and folks from countries with bigger safety nets have longer life expectancies, higher happiness ratings, are better educated (damn elitists) and are healthier.

    • @ Prince Lives
      “Democratic Socialist countries and folks from countries with bigger safety nets have longer life expectancies, higher happiness ratings, are better educated (damn elitists) and are healthier.”

      “It is better to live on one’s feet than die on one’s knees.”, said The Old Man to Nately.

    • No country that has ever called itself “socialist” or any variation thereof has developed such groundbreaking inventions as the personal computer, automobile, AR-15, etc. In fact, they’ve all either degenerated into social stagnation or outright decay without ever creating any sort of net positive for themselves or mankind as a whole. When Britain led the industrial revolution, it was a capitalist country. Haven’t seen them do anything that impressive since, and especially not after 1945. All those wonderful immigrants who invented things like Youtube or the ATM came to our shores with a dream, the will to make it happen, and America’s comparatively low tax rates to the whole of Europe. Socialism is slavery and robs everyone of their motivation to perform and compete.

    • Democratic socialism is destroying every country it is implemented in. Look at Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Italy, France, etc… short term gains are irrelevant against the fact that sooner or later you run out of other people’s money. I prefer not to have to import third world savages because the natives of my country are so pampered that they would rather live off the dole than do an honest day’s work.

      Take your commie garbage to someone who doesn’t know history and doesn’t watch the news.

  25. Meh, if we’re lucky maybe there will be a civil war, but it will just be the antifas and alt righters killing each other and only each other in equal quantity and then the grownups can get back to work.

    Seriously, every time a member of one of the above groups hurts or kills each other in one of their little temper tantrum clashes, the world is a better place.

    Fuck ’em both.

    • Yeah… please cite a single incident where the “alt-right” were the aggressors. If we wanted to kill ANTIFA we would show up to our rallies with rifles and in full battle rattle rather than in tshirts carying free speech signs.

      • Well, what is your tribe waiting for. You’re not just going to bend over and take it are you?

        Come on. Let’s heat this shit up, no? Bring it to the head everyone insists it’s coming to. Please hurry. I’m eager to pick over the corpses on both sides for valuables.

        • We don’t start violence unless there is no other option. With Trump in the White House, we have other options. I will point out that you can’t cite a single incident where the “alt-right” were the agressors. Good try though. Troll 3/10. E for effort.

        • LMAO. Dear little Jason, you really should think before you shoot your mouth off. There are a lot of people on the “alt-right” who are better shots then that LOSER OF A LEFTIST nut case who tried to shoot up the GOP.

          With your big mouth signaling your position you’d get caught in the crossfire of the bottle throwing Mangina’s and the AR-15 snipers. Hope you can dodge a 5.56 round – you lose. LMAO.

    • U know little about history. Most civil wars are fought with a 10-15 percent separatist group against a 20-25 unionist group with the remainder (a.k.a. the majority) sitting the sidelines. Both the Revolutionary and the U.S. Civil War (especially the Civil War) had much higher participation rates than other insurrections, civil wars, and revolutions through out history. Even during the Revolutionary War half, or slightly more, either never fought or fought for both sides at some point.

      This one (if/when it happens) will be much closer to the 10 percent against 25 percent which is the norm. The major difference will be 10 percent of the U.S. fighting against the rest will/would eff up the global economy in major ways. That revolution would be televised, bogged, vlogged, and documented for present and posterity’s sake.

      • Yes, and you can bet that our rivals and enemies like Russia, China, and Iran will not be idle while we turn on each other. If some kind of US civil war happens, things will get ugly all over the world. Not a happy time.

  26. Compromise has brought us a deep state that wants to bring in millions of new voters so the entire country becomes California and California becomes Venezuela.

  27. Gosh, seems to me the first shots were fired long ago… Jared Loughner – mentally ill radical leftist (independent) – Terrorist – Mass Murderer (imprisoned). Sayyeed Farouk – Jihadist – Registered Democrat-Islamist Terrorist- Mass Murderer (deceased – killed by a good guy with a gun). Nidal Hasan – Jihadist – Registered Democrat- Islamist Terrorist – Mass Murderer (Imprisoned). Omar Matin – Homophobe – Jihadist – Registered Democrat – Islamist Terrorist – Mass Murderer (deceased -killed by a good guy with a gun) James T Hodgkinson- Dedicated Socialist – Bernie Supporter – Rachel Maddow Fanboy – Mainstream Left Terrorist – Attempted Assassin (deceased – killed by a good guy with a gun).
    Just how often, and how intensely do these losers need to paint us a picture in our own blood before we pull our heads out of our asses, and begin to pay attention?

  28. The U.S. Civil War was in many ways an anomaly. The eastern campaigns until 1864 were far more “honorable” than most civil wars before or since. If you look at the way the war was fought in the far west, or pretty much every other civil war in history, you get a taste for what a future American one will be like. No blue, no gray. Just young men with guns and a whole heap of brutality.

    For all those who think it won’t/can’t happen here know this:

    Many people said the same about the first U.S. civil war.

    America (and thus the entire world) is particular vulnerable as a crap ton of trade around the world is predicated on U.S. stability. Disrupt that and tycoons around the world will spit their scotch. Whoever (pro- or anti- union) promises to reinstate stability will get their support. The American experiment is not too big to fail but it is too big too fail alone.

    • Yes. Although the Civil War was awful and slavery is nothing to be proud of. I believe that, for the most part, the American people acquitted themselves well. With the exception of Kansas, Quantrill, &c, we need not feel ashamed for that war.

      The culture has, most unfortunately, changed since then. I fear that future conflicts on this continent will not be so civilized. Though far into the realm of fiction, Josh Wayner’s “Savage State” is a portrait of such dishonorable warfare.

      • Tietonian: Quantrill was a Girl Scout compared to Major Nathan Bedford Forrest and the Fort Pillow Massacre. Over 200 negro soldiers and white officers were executed after capture. Many were skinned alive. Bedford has a middle school named after him in Florida.

  29. “millions of Americans would be instantly destitute. The same fate that the South believed would befall them should slavery be banned.” To be fair, the South did experience great economic destruction that it may never have recovered from.

  30. I’ve broken this down in detail on other sites and I’m not going to get far into the weeds again here.

    Here’s the basic fact: The National Debt is something we can deal with but the unfunded liabilities we’ve run up are not.

    When you really break down the numbers government revenue is somewhere are $7 Trillion per year and in the next 20 years the unfunded liabilities (just the liabilities, not the debts) for this nation, it’s states and local governments is $140-$200 Trillion OR MORE and growing every day.

    Even if you take a ludicrously low number like $100 Trillion as the number for those liabilities and assume really rosy growth in government revenue in future years you still get to the point where over 20 years the government has to pay 50% of it’s two decade revenue just on the currently unfunded liabilities which means at least a 50% reduction in outlays for services.

    That’s an unrealistically optimistic outlook and it still means the death of the welfare state one way or another. I don’t pretend to know what will happen when we reach the point where the bills just can’t be paid but we’ll get a preview when Cali or Illinois goes broke.

    Rough seas ahead no matter how you look at it. The arithmetic is inescapable. 4% (or so) sustained economic growth could seriously lessen the hardship but we’re in for a rough ride. How rough is based on the decisions we make today.

    • We’re headed to austerity one way or another. When you take someone’s “entitlements,” i.e. a thing they are entitled to, away from them, things will get bad.

  32. A civil war would be a terrible waste of blood and treasure. Especially when bumping off maybe 100 left-wing lowlifes would have a more profound effect.

    I don’t think that there will be any such violence, but I’m also quite sure that somebody is thinking about it right now. Call it the Hodgkinson Effect.

    • Except that the lefties are also thinking about ‘bumping off’ 100 conservatives……

  33. We should get rid of food stamps, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and when the snowflakes protest and start getting violent send in the National Guard and shoot them all dead.

  34. What is most concerning to me is the manner in which the left is embracing normalized political violence. At the start of the Trump campaign the violence was characterized by mobs of illegals and studiously ignored by the mainstream media. Now violence is being perpetrated by white middle class leftists, as we see in Washington, Berkeley, and college campuses across the country. This violence often receives the tacit, if not explicit, support of the media, leftist politicians, and academics (I’m looking at you Krugman).

    You have to wonder what these idiots are thinking. The end of the road they are taking only leads to blood and fire. So far they’ve had it their own way and probably believe their own delusions of being a “resistance”. I blame this on the combination of the neglect of history in our education system and sheltered lives that experience nothing more violent than jockeying for position at the Whole Foods olive bar. They should probably put down Slate and Huffpo for a week, read some accounts of the Yugoslavian or Algerian civil wars, and rethink the madness they are embracing.

  35. WE are already on the Democratic party’s hit list! Left coast and left radicals are getting aid and comfort in forming hit parades on anyone who doesn’t share their concepts of a better world!
    Fore warned is fore armed! be prepared fight fire with fire, an eye for an Eye! and tooth for tooth, there is a time to turn the other cheek and then there is a time time to kick ass! No Rational person wants a civil war, brother against brother , neighbor against neighbor, town against towns, Ethnic and Religious cleansing
    The losers ruining the Democratic party and their Illuminati puppet masters are to blame, but too hold them responsible many duped people will die as the Fabric of society crumbles out of a lust for power and corporate greed.

  36. Naw, It’s all about the EU-NWO/ Globalism…
    Where the US Constitutional-Bill of Rights, US history and The old past time of American values are incompatible with the Globalist Agenda…It just comes down to World Dominance! The question is which jackboot are you going to fall under…..Or is there still time to “Make America great again?!!!

  37. What other reasonable regulations would constitute “infringement?” At the extreme end, would you allow violent schizophrenic felons to carry firearms? Would you allow civilians or corporations to purchase nuclear weapons?

    Clearly, all but the most extreme fringes of society have agreed that some amount of reasonable regulation is needed. So, in a way, the devil *is* in the details, and it is not as black-and-white as you prefer to cast the issue.

  38. I had a couple random thoughts today.
    For every conservative saying “there’s going to be another civil war”, it has already started. Only the left is fighting it. At some point, we are going to have to start fighting back.
    The other thought I had: most of the violence from the left has happened at “Pro Trump” rallies. What the fuck is a pro Trump rally? Hello America! Trump is the President! We can stop rallying now!
    The biggest Trump Rally occurred on November 8th 2016. Time to get to work now and stop doing the end zone dance.

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