My daughter’s principal approached me in the hallway the other day. I’d just finished running my part of the Wednesday Book Club, but the principal knew me from lunchroom duty. That’s where I hand out napkins, open recalcitrant containers, give bathroom passes, enforce discipline and mess with their heads (in a nice way). As part of that duty I wear an apron around my waist. Despite covering my outside-the-waistband holster with a shirt, the whole rig occasionally rides up and exposes part of the Kydex shell. I always pull it down and vow to take off my empty holster before entering the school. One kid noticed it and remarked on it once. Apparently he wasn’t the only one . . .
“One of the parents asked me to talk to you,” the principal said. “She wanted to know if you carry a gun in the school.”
“No I don’t, ” I replied, a little taken aback but unapologetic. “I observe all local and state laws.”
“Someone must have seen your holster,” the principal said, revealing that he, too, had noticed my RKBA Glock schlepper. “Well I told her I would talk to you about it,” he said, somewhat reassuringly. “And now I have.”
Why would it matter if I carried a gun in the school? Again, I don’t. More importantly, my daughter is a student at the school. That should be an excellent indication that I am not now, nor will I ever be, a threat to anyone. As is my nature, revealed by my interactions with the children, faculty and staff in the dining room. The school trusts me enough to look after their kids without a gun . . .
I reckon part of the parent’s paranoia stems from the realization that their child is vulnerable. As is mine. If there was someone at the school with a firearm intent on harming someone, well, what then?
School security is, of course, a joke. There’s a sign-in procedure at the front desk but there’s no buzz-in procedure at the front doors. There are plenty of easily breached side doors and entrances. There is no armed School Resource Officer. Thanks to Bush the Elder’s Gun Free School Zones Act, this means there are no armed individuals in the school. At all. Until and unless there are.
There could be an armed protector in situ, next year. After the Newtown massacre, The Lone Star State created the Texas School Marshal Program. Here’s the 411 from chron.com:
Under the bill, a designated school marshal could carry a handgun unless they have direct contact with children, and then the gun would be kept locked up, to be removed “only under circumstances that would justify the use of deadly force.” The designee could be a teacher, an administrator, a coach or a faculty member, and their identity would be known to law enforcement and the head administrator.
The marshal would be trained in a program to be established by the Texas Commission on Law Enforcement Officers, and would carry a two-year license. If they so choose, school districts could adopt more stringent policies, the bill states.
So —IF the school district decides to participate in the program, the ONE person in a school that’s “allowed” to use a firearm to defend ALL the children in the school can’t carry a gun if they have “direct contact” with kids. And if one of the teachers who isn’t a secret Texas School Marshal needs to call on the services of the ONE teacher who IS armed, or at least could be, they can’t, because they don’t know who it is.
And if a school’s locking-up guns—sorry “a” gun—to deal with an imminent, credible and deadly threat to children, why the hell is it a handgun? In that situation an “assault rifle” is a far superior weapons platform with which to dispatch the person or persons trying to murder people within the confines of a school.
My daughter’s principal looked aghast when I asked him if her school was going to participate in the School Marshal Program. “That’s not going to happen in this district,” he informed me, accurately enough. During the Beslan school massacre thirty-two terrorists led to the death of 384 people, including 186 children.
And they’re worried about my empty holster.
That sucks, RF. I don’t have kids but if I did you damn well know I would do….whatever it takes…to keep them safe.
If you send them to school…. you can’t.
Well, I guess as long as it makes them FEEL safe, that’s the important part.
(That, BTW, was the joke of the day.)
It doesn’t have to make sense, as long as it makes them feel safe.
You do what you can, when you can, the best you can.
It’s good that your “job” allows you to be there for your daughter, even if “there” isn’t always where she is.
I bet you condoms/dental dams/birth control are on full display at your school which bothers me far more than a holster. Its funny what the school authority believe a 12 year old should be in view of.
I’m no sure why you lumped dental dams in there. A game of “which one of these things is not like the other?”
They’re useful as barriers during other… certain activities.
See the school nurse. She can explain what dental dams are used for and why schools make them available. 🙂 Boy do I wish for the days when the teachers weren’t out to “educate” my kids in things other than the three R’s and Science.
I use dental dams for their intended use on an almost daily basis. I don’t think I will bother googling any alternative uses…
Perhaps, but a 12 year old is much much much much more likely to have sex than gt shot, do you disagree?
Not if they know what is good for them. No 12 year old should be engaging in that activity and I don’t need a school complicit in aiding the trek down that path.
A child should know how to engage in self protection before they have the responsibility of protecting their offspring.
Both of those things are self-protection.
Whether a 12-year-old should know what to do with either of them, let alone need them, is a different question.
12-year olds? KNOW WHAT’S GOOD FOR THEM? If you actually knew any 12-year olds, you wouldn’t even make that statement….
I don’t give a rip about anybody else’s 12 year old unless they are hanging out with mine but, it is very, very, very, very unlikely that my son will get shot or have sex. Never the less I have tought him about the basics of both. He knows how to safely load and unload a handgun, shotgun or rifle and he know sex has a lot of negative consequences outside of a long term, commited (ie. married) relationship between a man and a woman. Improper use of a tool in either situation will get him trouble morally, spiritually and with the people he loves the most (his family).
Banning sex education increases teen pregnancy just like banning guns increases the odds of a mass shooting at that location.
Shouldn’t we try to protect our kids against both?
I disagree with the concept of “school marshals”. Just let teachers with CPLs carry on the job. Don’t go turning them into some kind of law enforcement officers. You don’t need special police powers to defend yourself or others against a deadly threat – that’s a natural right recognized by common law. I don’t want there to be a special class of teachers that’s empowered to use whatever force is “reasonably necessary for a legitimate law enforcement purpose.” That lends itself to enough abuses already.
Open carry and concealed carry ought to happen in schools. Children should see as many law abiding citizens carrying as possible; each and every day in a multitude of mundane settings. It will strengthen support for the crucial right to keep and bear arms in future generations. If they only observe agents of government openly armed then they will be imprinted with the notion that government alone is responsible for their safety.
What about a knife or baton? A kukri is certainly better than your bare hands. An ASP would put you on the same footing as an unloaded rifle.
Simply solution. IWB
The fact that he has outed himself as a gun guy makes this ill advised at best. All it would take is one gun hating parent connecting the dots and calling in an anonymous tip to get him sent to jail.
The Russians extracted payback for that massacre, as they did with the movie theater incident. They don’t pay attention to UN rules of nice, they buried the dead terrorists in pig carcasses to make a point.
True, but other than fear of reprisal, there is nothing to stop the terrorists from doing it again. Laws in Russia have not become more favorable to personal firearms and I’m not sure if their schools are any better protected by armed defenders than they were back then. History is doomed to repeat for those who choose not to learn from it.
Is that really a good use for pork?
You don’t use the good cuts silly, just the blood and what could be listed as by-products. LOL
Funny how they notice a hidden holster but not a kid walking in with a freaking weapon before they blow away other kids. Selective seeing?
That’s the thing a kid could bring a gun to school every day for a year and no one would know until he starts shooting.
That’s why metal detectors are only so useful. Once you get a gun behind them, you can wait as long as you need to to use them.
If they noticed it, it obviously wasn’t hidden. Wearing an empty holster… reminds me of linus and his security blankie.
In RF’s defense, as if he needs it, I wear my SR9c in a BladeTech IWB. It does an admirable job of carry, conceal, and access for the draw. The only problem is that it is a bitch to take on and off of the belt. I really can’t envision fumbling with it in the parking lot while trying not to attract attention.
I use belt loops with snaps on my Blade Tech Nano IWB holster. It’s a snap (zing!) to take off, assuming I’m standing. Taking it off while sitting is a PITA, though.
I agree that soft loops with pull-the-dot snaps make it very easy to quickly divest myself of my B-T Nano, even with the foam wedge mods I’ve added to get a better tuck on the gun. In fact, the ability to quickly and easily arm/disarm with my gun still securely in the holster is something I like very much about AIWB carry.
I strongly doubt RF wears it empty except at the school.
OTOH, nothing says ‘please break into my car’ like an empty holster and the knowledge that you’re going to be stuck in the building for the next hour.
As for keeping the kids safe, that’s easy.
Don’t send them to the indoctrination center five days a week.
You know, the “Texas School Marshal Program” sounds like something you’d send two cereal box tops in to join. From the description, it sounds equally effective, Murphy’s Law being what it is. Maybe you get a little invisible badge and a “suitable for framing” certificate for joining.
There is the very big possibility that 30 people here can pull off a complete raid like the one in Russia here in this very country. Nobody is immune to it..
The question is, will it be in Texas? Arizona? Florida..?
Or will it be in California.. Or New York?
Oh, the terrorists would definitely want to focus their efforts on NYC; there they would only have to worry about ricochets.
The question is, will it be in Texas? Arizona? Florida..? Or will it be in California.. Or New York?
Let’s have a vote.
To be fair, unless there is like ten or more armed individuals in the school they are probably only going to get a handful of kids out or get killed. Granted they would have more of a chance than any people in a NY or NJ school. The video even mentioned that armed relatives came to help the government personal in this Russian incident. I bet that those people would be arrested in NJ or NY.
Good job Robt being there for your daughter and her school.
There will always be *one* libtard nitwit with his/her panties in a twist over guns, or the endangered wooly woodpecker, or sustainable social justice whatever, so dont let it get to you, other than to provide content for discussion, to educate the silent majority that is paying attention.
The pendulum is swinging. TTAG is part of it. It will take examples like yours and others, including rational factual presentations and discussions at the School Board level, to educate them.
BTW, on the individual level, I apologize to long-time readers, but for those new- heres a good suggestion from Col Dave Grossman in Bulletproof Mind seminars –
is teach yourself and the kids to GTFO, rather than cower in a classroom lockdown, or under the counter in a store in the mall, (gawd those security vids on the Nigerian mall were chilling…cold blooded sociopaths…)
and
DONT FOLLOW THE CROWD, as you might be herded into the collection point or kiil zone- as in Beslan, and what is what I understand is the concern now in anti-terror thinking in the fusion centers, teaching the LEOs how to respond to a true terrorist attack, thats not just a lone nutjob. Thats a much tougher problem, and I could be wrong and defer to those in the know who can share.
I can envision a scenario of kids being trained at home to GTFO, and being restrained by a hysterical teacher from doing so. Then….
Move to Utah, carry all you want.
Robert/Any TTAGers: would you volunteer to be a “School Marshall” in your child’s school if they took part in the program?
I don’t have kids, but I have schools nearby and plenty of free time. I’d do it as part of a program, if it was a day or two a week, something like that.
In a heartbeat.
The problem is the school board wont consider arming the paid and non-paid monitors, as I know from talking to one of the assistant principals. This from a school district that suffered a shooting on campus, where civilians tackled the lone nut-job shooter.
Great PD here, by the way- I am one of their biggest fans, but still- minutes away, while kids were being shot…
@Roll, that’s a good question. I’d have to say no. The rules are shaded by the hoplophobes in favor of the bad guys. When teachers are allowed to defend themselves and their students, then maybe I’d play.
Under the new law, HB 1009, you have to be an employee to qualify for the school marshal program.
However, under long-existing Texas law, Penal Code 46.03(a)(1), a school can write a policy allowing whoever they want to to have firearms in school. Mostly it’s used for educational programs. For instance I had a letter from the local ISD authorizing me to have unloaded firearms in classrooms when I taught Hunter Education.
At last count, more than 70 Texas ISDs now have teachers carrying. Under a different new law, SB 1857, DPS will write and CHL instructors will teach a class for teachers who carry.
I hope that some of the other personnel at the school feel the same as you, and are carrying a service weapon in deep concealment. Hopefully no-one ever busts them, and hopefully they never have to use it. About ten years ago, I trained with a middle school teacher who does precisely that. A few years back she confided in me that she has carried every day since Columbine, and no one has ever spotted it. If anyone found out, it would cost her the job, and likely a lot more than that. The safety of her pupils is worth it to her. Her job is worth the diligence it takes to always be on guard, and always dressed to conceal.
I understand the political point you are trying to make with the empty holster. However, given the fact that the school board and voters in your area are so hostile to the human right to self defense, I can’t say it’s a good idea for you to be openly sarcastic of their make-believe defense against violence. It could cost you your job, and take a good person (who knows how to use a firearm in self defense) out of the school, where you are obviously needed. Anti-gunners hate nothing more than dissent. You are shaming them with reason, and it’s not far off to think they’d try to take it out on you by taking away your job. Anyway, I hope it doesn’t come to that. I wouldn’t do it, but thanks for sticking your neck out to make a statement for all of us.
regarding beslan…
this is why i’m OK with local LE “tooling up.” one day they WILL need it.
And yet you can see exactly how much good the local PD did in Beslan while NO ONE except the terrorists was armed INSIDE the school. Also, the terrs in Beslan had planned this for a long time and gotten access to the school. Also, armed civilians came to the aid of local police.
Regardless of how this actually went down it was well planned in advance and I do not believe any of those terrs planned on leaving that school without a huge body count to show for it. The whole point of this attack was the shock value of massacring the children.
The ONLY effective defense against one or many suicidal shooters/bombers is to have the ability to shoot them as quickly as possible to end the carnage, not to set up a gun free zone and try to talk them out of it.
Exactly so.
Both the “lone gunman” and bona-fide terrorists need the media exposure to accomplish their goal: recognition of their complaint or cause.
The best way to handle both of them is to kill them as quickly and ignominiously as possible. Imagine how the entire concept of airliner hijacking would lose its luster if, upon being captured on a flight by the passengers, the airliner proceeded onto the scheduled destination, whereupon the plane would land, roll off the active runway onto a ramp, a door would open, the pax would eject a headless body or two, and then roll the severed head(s) onto the tarmac. The door would then be closed and the jet would continue up to the terminal. The pax should refuse all interviews with the press. Just let the news media get a real nice long-distance shot of the body or bodies being tossed out like trash for the evening news.
Same deal in schools. If someone could kill the lone gunman types quickly and efficiently, then dump the body in the dumpster out back, suddenly the loons who want to emulate the prior gunmen lose their zeal. The spreadsheet type analysis that the twerp at Newtown used won’t add up all that well.
DG, I like the way you think and agree that what you suggest would produce the desired results. If we could only do it that way.
Beslan was rough, wasnt it Russkie SF that went in? From what I remember, they lost quite a few guys…my heart hurt after that one.
My position has always been largely the same – repeal GFZA, allow teachers with CCW permits to carry if they so choose without fear of political or legal retribution. No need to make it mandantory or anything, just an option…a wise option, IMO, but still an option. There’s no pleasing the ninnies out there anyway.
As for the terrorist attack (or spree shooting) scenario, I have to agree with getting out of Dodge whenever possible, but this also depends on the age of the students and other localized factors. A high school student would obviously be smart enough to find a safe secondary location and contact parents from there, but needless to say a 5 or 6 year old would not Educate accordingly.
Tom
Why not learn how to use a shoulder holster and quit flashing your hardware?
If you really want to carry concealed, then conceal it. Get a small piece, put it where it can’t be seen by anyone other than someone disrobing you by force, or spotted by anyone who doesn’t give you a hug, and be done with it?
Is this problem really so difficult to solve?
Seriously. Most people who carry guns concealed manage to do so successfully… to say nothing of an EMPTY holster.
According to Robert, he is not actually carrying.
It’s more of a political statement.
And if he is carrying, it is as hidden as well as you suggest.
It’s not wise to make that kind of political statement in a public school. Faculty at too many of these schools display extreme, almost TSA-level stupidity and will not use their brains to evaluate a situation no matter what. And just like with the TSA, these aggressively stupid people can ruin your life in less than ten minutes on a whim. I appreciate the effort, but there’s no use in making any points when someone’s job depends on not getting them.
Exactly. The sort of people you find as teachers (and worse, school administrators) are going to typically call down the cops on you, at which point you’re in a situation where you have two groups of unionized public employees against you: One fabricating a complaint, and the other fabricating evidence to support the complaint.
So, you’ve relinquished your grasp on the First Amendment as well as the Second? Some of us refuse to bow to that pressure.
You’ll be known as a jailbird if you try to walk that big talk. For some reason, Constitutional freedoms end at the perimeter of a school zone, and inside that perimeter is the absolute last place you want to challenge it. This fight will have to be waged in the courts if we want to win it. If you don’t believe me, by all means go ahead and flash your piece in front of school administration.
Many years ago I used a shoulder holster, an inverted model with an S&W Model 19. I was working where I had to wear a suit or sport coat at all times, however. Even then and with a good quality rig it was difficult to disguise all the straps and such over my shoulders and around the back. The pistol was hidden, but the harnessing tended to print big time. In any indoor scenario where you cannot wear a jacket to conceal the harness I think this would be less than ideal.
As for RF, I do not think it is a big mystery to anyone who he is and what he does. Can you imagine how easy it would be for some hoplophobe parent to SWAT him in the school with a panicked phone call? It would be a huge risk for him to be confronted under those circumstances and to be found carrying.
What’s the purpose of having one person able to use a gun in a school if they have to lock up the gun when around children? Who do they think a nut is going to target, the janitor?
Your trouble, Hannibal, is that you think what they do has to make sense. It does not, and it will not, where emotion rules over rationality. It’s like trying to teach the Eloi martial arts.
My daughter’s principal looked aghast when I asked him if her school was going to participate in the School Marshal Program. “That’s not going to happen in this district,” he informed me, accurately enough.
Time to pull the kid out of that Disarmed Victim Zone…
Increasingly, any parent who sends their child(ren) to public schools should be charged with parental malpractice. The evidence is so abundant that the case for sending children to public schools is inarguable now, and the case is made with much more material than just the child(ren)’s safety.
Sometimes, due to financial or other reasons, there can be a serious lack of viable alternatives. In those cases, a little involvement with your kids can go a long way. Latest for me was a visual arts teacher having all the kids learn poster presentations by doing glowing tributes to FDR.
Good luck. Are you in a position to home school? It’s the safest place to learn.
I rarely post here anymore because of the politics of my job but I felt I needed to chime in.
I work for a school district in Texas. I do not have direct contact with students and if my district decides to insitute this program I will volunteer. we currently have 1 SRO for every three campuses except the high school. I doubt they will let me as I work in a blue speck in north Texas.
My district does actually have good security. the sign in lady is behind a hardened desk (1in steel plate built into the desk facing the door). it would be harder for someone to access the kids as all doors are locked all day every day.
I would prefer to keep my prefered pistol on me and if this goes through I will happily sign up for the position.
Good luck; I hope you get to help.
My wife (before I married and tamed her) had this annoying tendency of asking, loudly, “IS THAT A LOADED GUN IN YOUR POCKET!?!” when she saw my empty holster. She would do this on elevators in the on post hospital (double gun free zone). She has since reformed her ways but there are a lot of people who freak out over minutia.
The appropriate response is:
“Why no, I’m just very happy to see you.”
Clever and bold of you to make it known you carry by letting your empty holster be obvious(ish). I have 1, of 2 the younger is homeschooled, in a Texas public school. I am not nearly as plugged in to the school as you are, although my wife is close and she carries, we still hide the fact like a dark secret. And yeah we disarm in the parking lot.
I am guessing y’all didn’t do the Episcopalian private school?(you should check out the charter schools in your area, they are growing like crazy here in Tarrant County)
Even if, the simple fact is Big Education is not a “self defense is a personal responsibility” place. All those teachers and especially the administrative staff were indoctrinated by the same system.
The proverbial “Soccer Mom” and insurance actuaries are scared of guns on top of that.
We live in a district with one of the very few licensed peace officer forces in the state. IE: They are cops and they carry guns. There is not 1 per campus.
One of them is a close acquaintance of mine. He does not really believe in armed teachers/parents/volunteers either.
In certain circumstances, a semi-visible empty OWB holster can be excellent visual redirection away from items concealed elsewhere on one’s person. In other situations, it could draw attention which leads to a pat-down search. Use good judgment.
So…why not just take the holster off before going onto the school grounds? Why cause a ruckus? Here in AZ we are free to carry open or concealed just about anywhere, any time, but I always wonder about these dip****s who feel compelled to strap on a bulbous, highly visible handgun just to go to the grocery store where they alarm other shoppers and make asses of themselves. If they’re that afraid for their safety, they should just stay home, suck their thumbs and let mom do the shopping. We shooters don’t need any more bad publicity or black eyes!
If you define your Rights by what makes other people irrationally fearful… You’re Doing It Wrong(tm). By the way, I open carry everywhere I legally can here in Tucson. No-one has panicked, and one cashier at Fry’s Grocery has complimented me several times.
Because, Al, the grocery store parking lot doesn’t have a moratorium on violence.
I haven’t trotted this out in a while, so here it is again. From Tam’s View From The Porch…
So if you carry all the time no matter how short the trip, were just paranoid people giving gun guys a bad name?
Sounds like youre the kind of person the gub guys dont need, not the other way around
IMO, any entity which denies you of your right to self defense should be held liable for your safety. A few multi-million dollar wrongful death lawsuits would go a long way to restoring our constitutional rights.
Strange that some of you can leave your gun in the car in a school parking lot were you live here we can only have it in the car if we remain in the car once we exit the gun may not be in the car or on us, thus we have to leave it at home.
My child’s school is like what was described an easy target with no security. I teach across town on a campus with an armed SRO but the campus has two school buildings on it, a football stadium, and some other buildings with over 1800 students. One SRO can not cover it. If you want real security teachers should have the choice to be armed or not and of course should go through extra training. Buildings should also be remodeled so they are harder to enter.
Rod
what state?
OK
crap will have to remember that when I travel north.
The point that got my attention is that the principal seemed okay. In Austin. We are making progress.
I’m with you Robert, over the summer break they “re-engineered” the entrances to all the local schools to have the “funnel” to the office effect the spent a ton with what could have been accomplished with a “velvet rope” type deal. Here in MI you can’t conceal carry in the school but you can Open carry if you have a concealed carry permit, a loophole they missed when they went to shall issue permits. My wife is a teacher and she’s on board with the GTFO plan, with her students, and open to usoing whats available as a weapon (fire extinguisher- squirt them with the white stuff hit ’em with the red can for example). I’d feel better if the couple of teachers with CCW permits could carry on campus, though.
I have been living and teaching in Honduras for two years. Being a third world country, and home of the murder capital of the world, has opened my eyes to what works and doesn’t work when it comes to protecting business and schools. Guns, plain and simple.
Grocery stores, pharmacies, banks, even restaurants and fast food chains employ armed guards. All of them. Criminals don’t hit stores and places that have a guy standing outside with a shotgun and a pistol. They prey on weak storefronts, which is why ALL of them have guards. The school I teach at and the schools I’ve previously all had armed guards. usually it’s just a revolver on his hip, but in other places, there’ll have shotguns. People are kidnapped often, especially children.
I don’t see why you wouldn’t allow schools to have an armed guard in the USA. I think a great number of US citizens are just uncomfortable seeing guns in public, which has led to a phobia. Yet, on a police officer, it is perfectly normal.
All of this money is going towards lobbying, why not create more jobs. Employ police to stand guard at our schools. Guaranteed a cowardly criminal is not going to get into a firefight in order to go shoot up a school. They’ll go find a different easy target.
I don’t know what to tell you Robert. Government officials want to kill our children. Meanwhile their children get security details and private schooling.
Yep. The greater the body count, the greater the wail for repression – for the kids.
Glad my state(Michigan) allows permit holders to carry in k-12 schools.
Even if there is a silly(see pointless) requirement for it to be openly carried and not concealed.
some of the parents were all atwitter the other day about a rumor that somebodygot caught CC’ing (with a permit) in a school… the looks on their faces were priceless when I (cop in uniform picking up my kids brefore I left for work) told them that the guy could have OC in the school since he had a permit aand that I was good with that.
and you send your children , unprotected to this school?
An empty holster like this would make me cry just like Mr. Krabs losing a penny; it should never happen.
It’s for the kids!
I’d gladly welcome any parent like RF in my elementary school – any adult who cares about their kids, and is willing to volunteer (especially MEN) are badly needed these days. Kids need as many positive influences as possible to counter the bad – the bad sometimes even being the drug-addicted / alcoholic adult they’re stuck with. Too many fatherless kids and kids raised by TV. It’s depressing.
Sad to say that almost a year later after Sandy Hook, I’d bet most schools have done little in the way of concrete steps to revamp their security procedures / plan. I know for sure that if the evil does come to my school in the hood (the odds are not in our favor…), the only plan I’m considering is helping my students to escape instead of sitting in the classroom like lambs waiting to be slaughtered.
The ideal situation would be since my classroom is close to the side parking lot, I escape with my students toward my car, where I have emergency supplies and loaded *ahem* TOOLS *ahem* to protect the little ones as they get away to the nearest fire / police station… all while I’m calling 911 on my cell.
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