I’m not sure if Travis Heinze was subjected to police harassment, legally speaking. Utah’s Illegal Immigration Enforcement Act (HB 497) requires residents to carry identification documents on them at all times. Police are required to ask for and examine the ID of anyone they stop, detain or arrest. So once he was detained, Mr. Heinze was legally obliged to show his ID. The question: did the cop have enough reasonable suspicion to detain Mr. Heinze in the first place?

Anyway, fast forward to 4:44 to see a more pressing problem. When Mr. Heinze follows an officer’s request to show his ID, he does so by reaching into his bag. The deputy then draws his gun…understandably, I’d say.

Heinze should have informed the officer where his ID was situated and asked how the deputy wanted him to proceed. To do that, Mr. Heinze would have to have been aware that reaching into his bag would alarm the officer, potentially putting his life in danger. Which you knew, or do now.

For example, if you’re pulled over and the officer asks you to show your insurance document — usually stashed in the glove box — tell the cop that’s where it is and ask permission to retrieve it.

Whether or not we should live in a country where this isn’t the case is a matter for debate. The wisdom of dealing with police in a polite and cautious manner, however, is not.

RELATED ARTICLESMORE FROM AUTHOR

130 COMMENTS

  1. It is common sense and common courtesy to let the officer know you are reaching in somewhere. Now courtesy can be very difficult to remember when you aren’t treated with any yourself. I’ve met more and more good officers in the last few years, but before that I was running a record of about 2 that I had met in my life that were decent. You get the respect you give as far as I’m concerned. Yeah some people will be rude no matter what, but giving someone the chance to impress you just might make your and their day.

    • Cop should know what he is doing, not the other guy. Cops should not even ask a question until he gives instructions.
      “Sir , I’m going to ask if you have ID, please don’t reach for it until I ask.”

      • i’ve been asked for my ID on every stop i’ve ever had with the police. Usually along with the vehicle registration.

        I’ve never had to ask permission to pull my license from my back pocket or my registration from the glove box.

        I’ve never had to look at a drawn gun when I did so.

        And I live in a crime laden hell hole.

        I dont get it.

        • I always try to have my stuff ready when the officer comes to the window. If not I let him know where it is and ask if I can reach for it. Haven’t gotten tickets when I rightly should have. One even said thanks for letting him know.

      • Exactly that.

        If police require a special interaction protocol that only applies to them and not to the rest of us – and you don’t routinely tell people around you “hey guys, I’m getting my phone, not my gun” when you reach into a bag, do you? – then the onus is on them to establish and follow that protocol.

  2. I think that you nailed it: while we shouldn’t have to ask permission before showing our papers, a bit of communicating can save us an extra hole or two.

    (BTW, movies whose plot rides on an omitted sentence or two annoy me to no end. I usually exclaim to the screen something like “just TELL him!”)

  3. “Utah’s Illegal Immigration Enforcement Act (HB 497) requires residents to carry identification documents on them at all times.”

    A bit off-topic, but does this mean that non-residents are required to neither carry nor produce ID upon demand?

    In any case im surprised this law hasn’t been challenged and overturned yet, on 5th Amendment grounds if nothing else.

    On topic, what’s the feeling about not asking, but informing the officer of where aomething is and announcing one’s intent to retrieve it? Still leaves an opportunity for the officer to object, but doesn’t – to me – sound so ingratiating.

  4. Utah’s Illegal Immigration Enforcement Act (HB 497) requires residents to carry identification documents on them at all times.

    It does no such thing. An officer may demand ID, and if none can be produced and he has a reasonable suspicion the person is an alien, he may detain them for the purposes of determining their status. In fact I’m not even sure that’s operative anymore since the 2014 settlement. In no case may a citizen be charged with a crime for failing to carry identification documents.

    • thanks for clearing that up. for a minute there i thought i was taking crazy pills or woke up in another country. mandatory papers? what the hell has our republic become when that’s an accepted normal.

      • Well, try to vote in a more than half the states without your “papers” and you’ll find that we’re already there. But, wait, that’s a good thing, isn’t it? So confused.

        • Not as liberty-oriented as we’d like, but given rampant Democrat inner city voter fraud (and why Democrats oppose it), a necessary evil.

        • Proving citizenship to vote has a constitutional connection. Proving citizenship to walk down the sidewalk does not.

          This really isn’t that complicated.

        • Voting is not the only thing affected. If you *wish* to do something which requires you to be identified, like voting or cashing a check, for example, then you may present identification or just walk away. If you are walking away, your ID is nobody’s business.

        • Exactly what voter fraud is prevented by requiring ID? Republican AG have gone looking (not realizing this was a red herring for taking the vote from people, I guess), and found essentially nothing. A few felons who thought they could legally vote (varies state to state, etc), and that’s about it.

          No one else has found it either.

          Now, those red states are fond of voting machines with no audit or verification ability, why is that?

    • Now, IANAL, but in general, a US citizen does not need to show official ID unless he is within 100 miles of a national border; or at a Customs station in the airport. A US citizen is required to properly identify himself, and should provide enough information (DOB, SS#, address) to differentiate between himself and any other Buttons out there.

      Of course, when carrying a concealed weapon, you must carry ID and in some states present it unasked at any LEO contact.

  5. Considering the unnecessary attitude this jackass was giving the cop, I am not surprised that he drew his weapon. IMO, he should have pulled a baton and beat the shit out of him just for being a smart-ass.

    I’d be willing to bet this character has had his nose broken at least once. What a jerk.

    • So…. if someone is mean to a person, that person is justified to respond with assault and battery? Or do police have a different set of morals to live by? You bootlicker you.

      • Actually, many states have laws pertaining to “fighting words.” Which are words or phrases that are deemed so offensive to the recipient, the recipient may respond with physical violence and it not be legally reprehensible.

        • Since you didn’t believe him or want to use google Silphy,

          There are certain well-defined and narrowly limited classes of speech, the prevention and punishment of which have never been thought to raise any constitutional problem. These include the lewd and obscene, the profane, the libelous, and the insulting or “fighting words” those that by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace. It has been well observed that such utterances are no essential part of any exposition of ideas, and are of such slight social value as a step to truth that any benefit that may be derived from them is clearly outweighed by the social interest in order and morality.

          — Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire, 1942

        • OK, fine. Let me try that again. What would be the official name of some state which legally allows you to physically assault someone (today, not 75 years ago) because of words that person uttered? Because, today, if I call you an unforgivable word and you raise your hand to me, I will *SHOOT* you. “Sticks and stones” still applies everywhere, so far as I know, everything is good until someone physically attacks someone else. Ask Trayvvon Martin.

        • >> Actually, many states have laws pertaining to “fighting words.” Which are words or phrases that are deemed so offensive to the recipient, the recipient may respond with physical violence and it not be legally reprehensible.

          That is not correct. If you assault someone in response to “fighting words”, it’s still a criminal act, and you’re still liable for it.

          What “fighting words” designation implies is that it is not protected speech under the First Amendment. In other words, legislation can be enacted that prohibits or otherwise regulates such utterances. However, the bar for what constitutes “fighting words” is extremely high due to a succession of SCOTUS decisions, each of which narrowed their scope.

        • @TimT When I asked that I was at work, and I barely have time to read TTAG, let alone do in-depth research. Thanks for responding though! And no, the thank you isn’t sarcasm, it’s a legit gesture of appreciation.

        • Colorado Revised Statutes 18-9-111. Harassment

          (1) A person commits harassment if, with intent to harass, annoy, or alarm another person, he or she:
          (scroll down)
          (h) Repeatedly insults, taunts, challenges, or makes communications in offensively coarse language to, another in a manner likely to provoke a violent or disorderly response.
          Fighting words are a misdemeanor, and a citizen may defend himself against them.

      • Look up the definition of assault and then battery: you are confusing the two. Assault is words and gestures only.
        LEOs rarely get to battery with a quiet compliant perp.
        They often see an escalation from the “mouthy and bellicose” types.
        So mouthing off to an LEO is a sure sign to them you might be set to go off on them and, since they want to live too, they’ll go to Def Con 3.
        Avoid it. Be nice.
        “Always be humble and kind” — Tim McGraw.

      • “If you meet an asshole in the morning, you’ve met an asshole. If you meet assholes all day, maybe YOU”RE the asshole.” – Justified.

        Not saying that cops should be able to do the beat-down, only that the stupid ass deserved it for being such an obnoxious prick. Hence the comment that he most likely has had his nose broken at least once.

        And being polite to police rather than obstructive is hardly the definition of “bootlicking”. Giving in without a fight when they are definitely overstepping their authority would be bootlicking.

    • So, when you see a policeman, you bow your head or, better yet, cross to the other side? And when the President comes to town, you get on your knees?

      • More like: When faced with overwhelming force, why bother making it harder on yourself? You’ll get nowhere being all sulky with a cop. And if you’re indoctrinated enough to believe a President is some sort of useful figure, you’ve got only yourself to thank for your sore knees.

      • When the president (or any other stuffed shirt) comes to town, the designation of such a place and event becomes “stupid people doing stupid things in stupid places” and I am most definately not there.

    • “attitude”

      And yet you will claim contempt of cop is not a punishable offense, amirite?

      • Whether or not “contempt of cop” is legally punishable, you may well find yourself punished in other creative ways. Poking a bear with a stick is NEVER a good idea.

        • Nah, bears don’t attack humans unless provoked. Cops attack civilians for their own personal satisfaction.

  6. On topic to your off topic, I wonder how many of our armed Trumpster brethren would claim Utah’s law to be unconstitutional? How else can you “send them home” if you don’t know who they are?

  8. I would disagree that it is understandable. We think in terms of threats, so sure, we understand the officer’s concern. On the other hand, if I have just been asked to produce something, it is common sense that I am going to have to reach *somewhere* to produce it. If cops are going to be so edgy as to drawn on people following orders, they need to be more specific. They are after all, the ones that are trained for the situation. Saying its common sense doesn’t make it so. Instead of asking for ID, maybe officers should first ask where the ID is first and then ask them to produce it. Same with my registration, they should not count on me telling them where it is. Just my humble opinion.

    • Cops who don’t keep an eye on people’s hands can end their tour that day in a bag.
      The mouthy ones are the most likely to escalate to physical action so they really get the alert level up.
      So just be nice, but if your are belligerent, don’t make sudden movements to grab something hidden. If reaching puts hands out of sight, tell the officer you are going into the glove box, bag, etc. to get what was asked for and let them tell you if that concerns them and let them suggest how to proceed.
      Everyone goes home safe.Recall the two Palm Springs cops who just got killed chatting with a DV perp? A perp can draw on you very fast.

    • “My ID is in that bag over there. Is it OK if I reach in there to get it?” I’d rather be inconvenienced by saying that phrase than being perforated.

      • 1980; “Officer, my proof of insurance is in the glove box, held in place by my Colt Python.” Response, “OK get it.” This is not hard. In fact, this brings something to mind, here. Could it be that those who do *not* carry are at risk because they are clueless? As an armed American for 50 years or so, I am aware that I should clarify what I am doing with any LEO before jumping around and being stupid. Someone who has never handled a gun at all might not be aware.

  9. Hell no! You want to try and detain me because I won’t give you identification (excepting being under arrest)?

    I’ll shoot your tyrant ass!

    • Please do try. You will make a fine unambiguous example of how cops justifiably shoot people who threaten them with deadly force.

      • What about people justifiably shooting cops when the cops threaten them with deadly force?

        I’ve been a victim of more than one felony perpetrated by a police officer, but I’ve never killed a police officer, because no police officer has ever threatened to murder me.

        • That is not what he is saying. He i.e. is either a Bloomberg troll, a cowardly chest pounder or a psycho path.

        • Dude, grow up! In progressive dystopias, noone “illegally” detains you.

          Who’d bother doing that, when they can just rewrite, or reinterpret, their “living document” law to make the detention legal? And you nothing but a lawbreaking criminal, resisting lawful arrest?

        • Why not talk to us once you are old enough to drive a car (since that attitude will get you killed pretty quick) or to buy a gun. Your responses are those of a 12-year-old troll.

  10. “Police are required to ask for and examine the ID of anyone they stop, detain or arrest. So once he was detained, Mr. Heinze was legally obliged to show his ID. The question: did the cop have enough reasonable suspicion to detain Mr. Heinze in the first place?”

    So they can cause you to be suspected of a crime, and thus merit detainment, just by asking for your ID, which you are then legally obligated to provide. – brilliant!

    • In my life, I have heard several times, of someone arrested for resisting arrest. And all this sounding like there is nothing to see here, move along.

  11. A guy was shot not that long ago for obeying a cop’s order to retrieve his license.

    I suppose it’s too much to ask for cops to actually THINK about the things which they ORDER citizens to do.

    People who are law abiding and don’t actually pay attention to what the police REALLY do, never even IMAGINE that they’ll get shot for OBEYING a cop’s orders.

    I treat cops like unexploded bomblets. I avoid them when I can. I treat them very carefully when I can’t.

    You can never be sure what might set either off.

    • When dealing with cops, I’m polite (as I am toward most people), but in no way friendly. But then I’m generally not friendly to strangers in non-work situations anyway.

      My demeanor is analogous to that of a Japanese patent attorney talking to somebody with whom he’d rather not.

  14. Makes no difference. I can ask permission, describe in great detail where my ID and how I will retrieve it and still pull out a gun.

    Asking permission, waiting for an order, or just going in and doing whatever whenever are all the same level of risk.

    I guess one method serves to ease an unquiet mind maybe but that also serves to distract or obfuscate your victim.

    I do know that if I am out and about minding my own business any interaction with a cop immediately increases my risk of being beaten or killed had that cop not interacted with me. Interacting with anyone increases that risk.

    It’d be safer for me and the cop if he just kept on walking.

  15. Be respectful and don’t make sudden moves.

    Advise, whether you are required to or not, that you have a CHL/LTC/CCW and where it is located. I personally would say, “Officer, for your safety and mine, I would like to advise you that I have a LTC and my firearm is _____. How would you like to proceed.”

    Don’t be stupid and burst out and say ” I got a gun.” That’s a quick way to get shot up.
    Advise the officer where things are before you reach for them and where they are.

    I carry at the 3 o’clock. My wallet is in my back right pocket. I’m going to make damn sure he knows what I’m doing every step of the way.

    • I do what’s REQUIRED by law.

      I DON’T do extra-legal “courtesies”. Almost invariably, cops treat them as DUTIES.

      In Ohio, we’re required to notify… IF AND ONLY IF we are ARMED.

      Naturally, cops have been known to get pissy when you DON’T notify when NOT armed, despite there being ABSOLUTELY no requirement to do so. I have refused to do so in the past and will continue to do so as long as the law remains the same.

      It’s “LAW enforcement”, not WHIM enforcement.

  16. How about the cop says: “Do you have ID? Where is it? Please let me see your ID.” Then he knows where to expect the detainee to be reaching.

  17. Ask permission? I prefer to sit or stand there until the officer gives explicit instructions that I can follow. Where the hell did he expect the guy to produce his ID – from his butt?

  18. Moral of the story: Be careful or some trigger-happy b@stard with a badge will kill you and blame it on a “furtive movement.”

    Got it.

    • All things be equal, he had a bag with him and was being uncooperative, then started reaching into his bag. The cop was damn ready to get busy and I don’t blame him one bit. Also, the officers gun wasn’t really pointed directly at him and the officers finger was properly indexed.

  19. This country would be so much safer if we all had our Social Security numbers tattooed on our foreheads.

    • That’s a great idea Curtis. But what would be better, have a persons IQ tattooed there instead of the SS# so we don’t waste time waiting for a person to speak before we know if they are morons or not!
      That would be so helpful!! Just think, a person walks up and their number indicates total moron, you just keep walking and ignore them!
      Perhaps their number is much higher than your own, where you should shut your mouth and listen to them.

    • Yes! Brilliant! We should all carry “The Mark of the Beast” on our forehead$! Looks like the Christian types might be right! Maybe the Anti-christ is already here! Must have S/S no#. with ” 666″ suffix added and engraved on frontal lobe!

  20. Honestly, the cop probably wouldn’t have drawn if this guy was compliant in the first place instead of being a jerk. Sure, the guy has the right to be a jerk, as we all do, but that doesn’t make it the smartest decision. The cop doesn’t know if you’re just being a dick or if you’re one of the more fringe folks in the sovereign citizens movement who might try to kill him.

    I’ve had good interactions with police and two very bad ones. Remaining calm and compliant got me out of both bad situations, one of which a Sheriff’s deputy was looking for any reason he could to use a baton on me and haul me off to jail. In fact he was baiting me to do something buy waving his baton under my nose and talking trash while his buddies watched. Could I have done something? Yes, he was an idiot and way, way too close to me for my training level vs his. Would it have ended well for me? No. This is six on one with the police. If I had violently hyperextended this idiot’s elbow and taken his baton his buddies would have turned me into a bullet pinata. As it was, simple “Yes, Sir” and “No, Sir” answers got this guy to think I was a pansy and not worth his time. I’m sure he laughed about it with the other deputies and I really don’t care. I got out of there without a scratch, charge or even a ticket.

    There’s your rights and then there’s what’s smart. Doing something that increases the risk of getting perforated isn’t smart. You won’t be complaining about your rights from the morgue. Were my rights violated? Damn right they were but I wasn’t going to turn this into an officer involved shooting because there’s no way that comes out well for me.

    • Typical bootlicker BS: blame the victim, be “smart” (translation: abase yourself before the government goon if you don’t want to die).

      What is the point of civil rights if exercising them results in death by government? Bootlickers preach endlessly about how cops are civilians, cops are bound by the same laws (hah!), cops are us, and yet they advocate total obedience, then blame civilians for failing to read the minds of police to predict expected behavior. Quite the equal relationship.

      • No, now the bootlickers try to claim that cops aren’t civilians. They are part of the exalted knight’s class and deserve to lord over the serfs. Now bow and tug at your forelock when your better speaks to you.

        • Right, you can haul their asses to court, and *if* you win, the taxpayers are socked with the judgement while the cops *might* be fired only to be re-hired at some other department. “Rich”, and

          Meanwhile, the bootlickers make absolutely no attempt to call for any kind of accountability from the cops, or a revision of procedures (which only care about their safety, and total contempt for everyone else’s). Instead, the bootlicker actively sides with this malfaisant behavior and calls people stupid when they don’t abase themselves before their government Gods. Then you have the chutzpah to equate cop killings with suicide, the implication being that all death at the hands of police is self-induced.

          Behold, the bootlicker delusion.

      • “What is the point of civil rights if exercising them results in death by government?”

        None if you’re dead. People die protesting the right of way at crosswalks. That’s just stupid. They didn’t get where they were going faster, they got dead. If you’re living after the cops violate your rights you can take their asses to court hence bringing the issue to the public’s attention and possibly getting a court order on retraining the cops/firing the bad guys. Plus you can sue and get a ton of money.

        I’d rather be rich as fuck and called a bootlicker by keyboard commandos on the interwebz than dead because I stuck up for my rights in the heat of the moment, broke some asshole’s arm, took his baton and ended up getting shot 25 times by his dumbass friends in those spiffy uniforms. Sure, my family might get a payday but I’m not going to enjoy any of that with them now am I?

        It’s better to be a living dog than a dead lion.

        But hey, if you wanna play stupid games and win stupid prizes just put a pistol to your temple and pull the trigger. The result is the same for you and, as an added bonus, I won’t have to put up with your stupid preachy bullshit anymore.

        • Right, you can haul their asses to court, and *if* you win, the taxpayers are socked with the judgement while the cops *might* be fired only to be re-hired at some other department.

          Note the bootlickers make absolutely no attempt to call for any kind of accountability from the cops, or a revision of procedures (which only care about their safety, and total contempt for everyone else’s). Instead, the bootlicker actively sides with this malfaisant behavior and calls people stupid when they don’t abase themselves before their government Gods. Then you have the chutzpah to equate cop killings with suicide, the implication being that all death at the hands of police is self-induced.

          Behold, the bootlicker delusion.

        • DID you sue him? After all, that’s assault.

          If not, you gave him positive reinforcement for his bad behavior.

        • “Right, you can haul their asses to court, and *if* you win, the taxpayers are socked with the judgement while the cops *might* be fired only to be re-hired at some other department.”

          Those taxpayers will either put up with their money being taken from them due to the actions of their hired servants or they’ll demand accountability from the police. If they fail to do the latter it’s not my problem. Not getting killed by a roid-raging LEO is my problem and my only problem in this situation.

          I’m not going to get myself killed for your vision of perfect policing. If you’re so hot about this I’m sure we’ll find out shortly how you went out in a blaze of patriotic glory defending your rights from the tyrannical police that had you outnumbered six to one. Write your own obit about it so we’ll know you went down fighting the good fight. Until then shut the fuck up because you clearly haven’t thought this through.

          If I had done anything, do you know what would have happened? Nothing other than me dying because dead men tell no tales. They’d have written it up that I was a nut who attacked and disarmed a Deputy causing injury to the deputy and had to be put down like the rabid dog I was. In that particular case you would have a 0.00% chance of getting any reform because their version of events would be what the public consumed and I’d just be a dead nut. They’d control every aspect of the narrative and there would be no reform. In fact the guy who’s arm I broke might get a goddamn medal.

          Long story short: You’re an idiot.

        • “If they fail to do the latter it’s not my problem”

          Your problem is that you are defending this behavior. Your failure to see a difference between not getting killed and actually siding with the criminal pigsters is telling, as is your laughable attempts to explain your particular method of “reform”: sue them, and it is not my problem the cops don’t learn a lesson because it isn’t their money.

        • @Chris:

          No, I didn’t sue. There was no point. The only people there when this guy went off the rails were the deputies and myself. It’s not worth paying to sue when it’s going to be the word of six sworn officers against me with no other witnesses, and since he didn’t actually rough me up I had no physical evidence either. Because the other guys (and a gal) didn’t stop his behavior I don’t figure they’d have taken my side in a tort.

          I called the city police immediately after getting out of there and filed a report. The Sheriff called me two days later and got my side of the story. Apparently the guy had a bunch of complaints against him or the Sheriff really didn’t like him. Either way the Sheriff fired him about week later. So as far as I’m concerned it worked out.

          @Butthurtz:

          Get off the computer/tablet/phone, go outside and play a nice game of hide and go fuck yourself. Don’t bother coming back.

          @MDS:

          “Your problem is that you are defending this behavior. “

          Are you off your meds or what? I never said anything remotely defending the deputy’s actions. I merely said I wasn’t going to take actions to escalate the situation to the point that would allow the deputies to effectively murder me because I gain nothing from that. Resisting that guy in any way was begging to get my ticket punched because the other deputies that were there clearly didn’t care to even attempt to restrain this asshole. I deescalated the situation and got the fuck out. Anyone who wouldn’t do the same is a fucking retard, a keyboard commando or both.

          Just stop talking, you’re making yourself look like you’re stupid, crazy or both. Like I said, write you own obit, and go fight the good fight. Then I’ll take you seriously until then I put exactly 0 stock in anything you have to say.

        • Your continual condemnation of the victim is proof enough of your approval of the pigster’s actions. You aren’t fooling anyone.

          “If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor” – Desmond Tutu

          Except in your case, you explicitly call the victim stupid, so your side is even more clear.

        • “Your continual condemnation of the victim is proof enough of your approval of the pigster’s actions. You aren’t fooling anyone.”

          Wow. You really are fucking retarded. Saying “Don’t get shot for no reason when you can go to court” =/= “Take whatever the man throws at you”.

          You’re mentally unstable. Please, for the love of Christ, suck start a pistol.

          You clearly want people to throw their lives away for no real reason. I suggest you follow your own advice: kill yourself because you’re a useless waste of oxygen and need to fucking die.

          Now, regardless of whether you follow my advice or not: FUCK OFF WITH YOUR DUMBASS SHIT. Like a conversation with 2 year old on calc, I’m not going to keep dealing with your stupidity/ignorance/mental problems. You’re not fit to have this conversation so STFU.

        • Note how the victim here did not die and yet you condemn his actions. So all your disguised wisdom is nothing more than blatant bootlicking.

          I bet you wouldn’t even sue a cop even if he shot you, you’d just beg for more. 🙂

        • Questioning the wisdom of someone’s actions is now condemning them… yeah, no.

          You’ve gone full retard. Stop drinking glass cleaner with your lunch and learn to actually argue. Maybe, while you’re at it, take a class on how humans operate in the real world. You know, rather than your pathetic unicorns and rainbows world.

          Intentionally ratcheting up the level of the confrontation wins you no points with the other person. You might have the right to do it but that doesn’t make it smart when the totality of circumstances is considered.

      • “What is the point of civil rights if exercising them results in death by government?”

        None.

        Unless backed up by sufficient armament and attitude to overwhelmingly tilt the “death by” probability in the other direction. Absent that, “civil rights” is nothing but one in a long line of opiates for the (common) people.

        As long as government CAN rape you at will, they WILL do so. That they may whisper nice words in your ear during the act, will in no way ever change that fact.

      • Boy, you guys can get ridiculous over nothing. Long story short, early ’60’s a cop leans into the backseat of the car I was cruising with buds in, tells me if I say one more word (I was harassing him while he was harassing my brother), he was gonna drag me out of that car and teach me a lesson. I responded (I shit you not!) “You lay a hand on me and I’ll have your badge!” He went positively ballistic, screaming and yelling and tearing around the car, while his partner advised him that I was right, there was no excuse, until finally they drove away and left us alone.

        • In your case his partner was telling him to stop. In my case the other deputies on scene didn’t give a shit what this guy was doing and made no effort, verbal or otherwise, to change his behavior.

          In fact, I would surmise that they quite enjoyed him “teaching me a lesson” that they were in charge. They went so far as to reposition their cruisers so that none of their dashcams would catch what was going on.

    • strych9,

      Based on your brief description, the deputy that assaulted you and his partners who failed to restrain him are nothing more than criminal thugs. The fact that they receive government paychecks and wear government uniforms is irrelevant.

      Unfortunately, they had every immediate tactical advantage: surprise, numbers, and firepower. They also had every legal advantage if you had wanted to pursue civil or criminal action against them: numbers, their elevated status as a government witness in a trial, and purposely pointing the dash cameras away while maintaining audio recording which would allow them to frame an encounter to their total advantage.

      In other words you were suddenly, quite literally at war with 6 people who had every possible advantage and you applied Sun Tzu’s Art of War principle that you never fight an enemy on their terms since any fight, in that instance, would have been exclusively on their terms.

      It sounds like you partially applied Sun Tzu’s principle to fight on your terms when you filed a police report immediately following which apparently led to that deputy’s dismissal. Unfortunately, you did not apparently do anything to hold his accomplices accountable and they are still free to assault and murder other good people.

      To the other commenters on this forum, I encourage all of you to follow Sun Tzu’s words of wisdom and fight your enemies on your terms, not theirs.

  21. As far as getting pulled over goes, I always reach into the glove to get my documents before the officer is even out of his car, then I have everything in-hand; DL, CCL, registration, proof of insurance; by the time he gets to my window. I have the dome light on, the car in park and turned off, and I keep my hands where he can see them.

    If asked where on my person I’m carrying, I tell them instead of gesturing. I don’t often get pulled over, so as of yet I’ve never been asked to disarm, but if I were, I would probably ask the officer to do it. No need to touch my EDC at all when there’s a cop there. Best to avoid any possible misinterpretation of my movements. I neither trust nor particularly like the police, but at the end of the day, we both want the same thing: to move on with our days. So I do what I can to facilitate that with as little drama as possible.

    • “I’ve never been asked to disarm, but if I were, I would probably ask the officer to do it.”

      Great idea!

      “Sure, officer. You drop your gun, and I’ll drop mine.”

  22. The cop had no business touching his weapon. The life and safety of a citizen more important than the life and safety of a cop.

  24. “Officer I ma reach for my ID now, it’s inside my waistband at the 5 o’clock position.”

    “Yea go ahead.”

    …

    What’s the point. Teach the cops to watch carefully, and realise that telling them or not, a weapon can still be pulled. Stop going for the fvckin gun unless you reasonably perceive a threat. Just by reaching there’s no judgment to be made whether it’s papers or a weapon.

  25. Utah’s Illegal Immigration Enforcement Act (HB 497) requires residents to carry identification documents on them at all times.

    Well… that sucks. I routinely take a walk with no ID.

  26. I will lobby here for at least equal courtesy, and fractional benefit of the doubt. The cop could be overstepping their, or their jurisdictional, authority, but you don’t know if they’re just new, or what kind of day they’re having.

    De-escalate with whatever recognition of the officer’s authority has first, even if you have to (or wish to) point out what limits they may have.

    Police training and SOPs are geared to verbal judo you into surrender no matter what their lack of authority or jurisdiction, I favor being better informed of the law than they are and keep the cameras rolling anytime they sweat ya.

  27. Yeah, wallet in back pocket, no problem. Reaching into a bag… more pucker factor.

    As for glove compartments, reach away, just don’t do it fast and don’t have a surprise gun in there, because the officer will be looking in as you open it.

    • Ask your chiropractor (or spinal surgeon) why you don’t want to have a wallet in your back pocket while you are sitting.

  29. With American law enforcement utilizing Israeli military tactics in dealing with American citizens, we are all Palestinians now…

    • Maybe you are. Most of the rest of us understand that the Palestinian authorities are power mad dictators who lie, cheat, and obfuscate, never telling the truth to their sheep.

      • I see the “Israel firsters” are out. For the record, I have no use for ether Israelis or Palestinians and would like to see MY country stay out of their affairs, along with the reduction in “foreign aid” that each entity receives.
        It is a loosely guarded “secret” that American law enforcement types have been transported to Israel to learn how Israel deals with its “citizens”, bringing back their tactics and techniques to use on American citizens–not good… Being on a constant “war footing” colors their perception as to what domestic “law enforcement” should be like…
        There is NO REASON for American “law enforcement” to adopt Israeli police tactics…

  30. Here are “police” practices that deserve to be exposed:

    #1. During a traffic stop, the police officer will touch the back of your car. The reason for this “touch” is that, quite often, the police officer will have a small quantity of narcotics (marijuana or cocaine) on him (in his hand) that he will rub on the car in order to help “justify a search”. When the dog is brought in, it will react to “cues” from its handler as well as the drug residue on the vehicle and help “justify a search”. This tactic is mostly used against young people. Drugs can also be “planted” on a “suspect”.
    The “touch” used to be a way for police officers to “prove” that they had an interaction with a citizen, but no more . . .

    #2. Most (if not all) cops possess a “throwdown” weapon. This “helper” is obtained from a criminal who is then “let go” without his weapon and is always used to justify a questionable police situation and to “sanitize” a “crime scene to absolve police on the scene of criminal police behavior. Quite often, this is informally suggested during academy training “off the record”…

    #3. If you are in the back of a police car, LIE DOWN on the seat. Police use the concept of “screening” to abuse their unwilling “passenger”. This involves, driving at high rates of speed, violent turns and other antics to get the passenger to “hit the screen” separating the front from the back with his face. Hence the act of “screening”.

    #4. If you are being handcuffed, quite often the police officer will wrench you arm behind you, forcing you to “turn around”. Another “trick” is a foot to the instep, forcing the individual to involuntarily “pull away”. The officer will then add a charge of “assault” to whatever other charges they concoct against you (just for being forced to turn around). They “pile on” charges, hoping you will plead guilty to at least one.

    Remember–NEVER CONSENT TO SEARCH . . . You must be polite, but firm in your refusal. You can state that “you NEVER consent to searches” as well as using these “magic” words–“am I free to go?” The police officer MUST answer your question . . . If you are being detained and an illegal search takes place, you have legal recourse.

    Remember–police are not your friends . . .

    That being said, not all “law enforcement” is criminal, but the “thin blue line” that they so jealously guard (and “look the other way” when rogue cops abuse their authority) does much to taint ALL “law enforcement” with having ulterior motives.

    In fact, the cops who are standing around watching their “brothers in blue” abusing a restrained citizen are just as culpable…

      • To LEO paramilitarizied fanboys:

        “FULL INDEPENDENT CIVILIAN REVIEW BOARDS FOR ALL RANK AND FILE P/O’s !”

        Ban all police unions from public service jobs !!!

        “Hold police unions culpable for their actions in inference with a victims constitutional rights! Intimidation, defamation character, etc…$$$$$$ !!!”

  31. If anything, police should be held to a higher standard than that of the public…As it stands now, police can commit crimes with impunity because, in most situations, they investigate themselves…Behavior that would get an ordinary citizen charged, convicted and incarcerated is routinely ignored by “the powers that be” because police are considered to be “above the law” as the “law” is whatever they say it is, the Constitution be damned…
    Ever notice that police unions are “fraternal”? This should tell you something. The “thin-blue-line” is a gang, little different than street gangs–at least when it comes to “covering-up” their questionable and quite often, illegal and criminal behavior.
    In today’s day and age, “officer safety” trumps de-escalation of force. This, in part, is due to the militarization of the police along with training in Israeli police tactics. This becomes a problem, with the “us vs. them” attitude that is fosters, along with the fact that Israel is a very different place, being on a constant “war footing”, and by necessity, its police tactics are very different.
    There are too many instances of police being “given a pass”, even when incontrovertible video and audio evidence is presented. Grand juries, guided by police-friendly prosecutors, quite often refuse to charge those police officers who abuse their authority.
    Police officers, who want to do the right thing, are quite often marginalized and put into harms way, by their own brethren…When a police officer is beating on someone that is already restrained while yelling, “stop resisting” THAT is but one reason police have a “bad name” in many instances…this makes the “good cops” who are standing around, witnessing their “brethren in blue” beating on a restrained suspect, culpable as well…
    Here are changes that can help reduce police-induced violence:
    1. Get rid of police unions. Police unions (fraternities) protect the guilty, and are responsible for the massive whitewashing of questionable police behavior that is presently being committed.
    2. Eliminate both “absolute” and “qualified” immunity for all public officials. This includes, prosecutors and judges, police and firefighters, code enforcement and child protective services officials, and others who deal with the citizenry. The threat of being sued personally would encourage them to behave themselves. Require police officers to be “bonded” by an insurance company, with their own funds. No bond= no job.
    3. Any public funds disbursed to citizens as a result of police misconduct should come out of police pension funds–NOT from the taxpayers.
    4. Regular drug-testing of police officers as well as incident-based drug testing should take place whenever an officer is involved in a violent situation with a citizen–no exceptions.
    5. Testing for steroid use should be a part of the drug testing program. You know damn well, many police officers “bulk up” with the “help” of steroids. Steroids also affect users mentally as well, making them more aggressive. The potential for abuse of citizens increases greatly with steroid use.
    6. Internal affairs should only be used for disagreements between individual officers–NOT for investigations involving citizen abuse. State-level investigations should be mandatory for all suspected abuses involving citizens.
    7. Prosecutors should be charged with malfeasance IF any evidence implicating police officer misconduct is not presented to the grand jury.
    8. A national or state-by-state database of abusive individuals who should NEVER be allowed to perform police work should be established–a “blacklist” of abusive (former) police officers.
    9. Most people are unaware that police have special “rules” that prohibit them from being questioned for 48 hours. This allows them to “get their stories straight” and makes it easier to “cover up” bad police behavior. Police must be subject to the same laws as civilians.
    10. All police should be required to wear bodycams and utilize dashcams that cannot be turned off. Any police officers who causes a dash or body cam to be turned off should be summarily fired–no excuses. Today’s body and dash cams are reliable enough to withstand harsh treatment. Body and dashcam footage should be uploaded to a public channel “on the cloud” for public perusal.
    11. All interrogations must be video and audio recorded. Police should be prohibited from lying or fabricating stories in order to get suspects to confess. False confessions ARE a problem in many departments. Unknown to most people, police can lie with impunity while civilians can be charged with lying to police…fair? I think not…
    12. Any legislation passed that restricts the rights of ordinary citizens, such as firearms magazine capacity limits, types of weapons allowed, or restrictive concealed-carry laws should apply equally to police. No special exemptions to be given to police. Laws must be equally applied.
    Police work is not inherently dangerous…there are many other professions that are much more dangerous.
    A little “Andy Taylor” could go a long way in allaying fears that citizens have of police.
    That being said, I have no problem with police officers who do their job in a fair, conscientious manner…however, it is time to call to task those police officers who only “protect and serve” themselves.

    • I absolutely agree with most of what you posted. But, I believe it doesn’t go far enough.

      1.) Full independent civilian review boards for ALL rank and File Police officers–including management, and administration. Such as Sgt., Lt.s, Chief’s of Police, and Superintendents.

      2.) Make it a Nationwide ballot intuitive to make it a “Capital Crime” for any Politicians, Police, government agency to “infringe” upon any Amendment pertaining to the People within the US Constitutional-Bill of Rights.

      3.) Complete Prohibition, and Ban of Police Unions, guilds, or fraternities…For Police officers in public service.

      4.) Any Police Union that interferes with a victim (citizens) civil rights, or legal recourse…Will be subject to Legal action by the victim…And the victim can receive Financial compensation, damages, etc….

      5. ) Creation of a State/Local victims of police brutality, and crimes fund…Something that would have independent oversight….And provide assistance to victims (citizens) of such incidents outside of legal recourse.

      6.) A complete De-Militarization of all Police Departments nationwide…Defunding of Departments in the name of Liberty and Freedom…Because all lives matter! America is not a DMZ !

      7.) Possible Dismantling, and Disarmament of our Local/City/State Police forces…And a complete overhaul…To independent, Privatized Town security officers….No firearms–limited to intermediate weapons up to batons only….For only citizens can be armed, 2nd amendment within a free constitutional republic….

      8.) An end to all social engineering experiments throughout the USA. Hold Liberal Politicians criminally libel for the creation of inner city problems on their watch…..

  33. If we need to delay new police cars for a year to do it, every cop must have a body cam. If your body cam (or someone else’s) does not confirm your story, then your story is a lie. Regardless of whether it is not functioning (turned off).

  34. It didn’t used to be that way, but now it is, and that’s a sad state of affairs.

    Roger. Wilco.

    Charlie

  37. Without watching the video, I stand by the fact that if a cop asks you to produce your ID, he should be able to safely assume that you’re going to have to reach somewhere.

    If he does not want you reaching places, he’s going to have to live without seeing your ID.

  38. Don’t ask a cop for permission for ANYTHING.
    Do let them know in advance what actions you are going to perform.

  39. My insurance agent long ago told me to keep all documents a cop might want clipped to my sun visor, so the moment I’m stopped I can drop them onto the dash before the cop has turned off his engine. That way they’re in plain sight and I’m not reaching anywhere that might cause any confusion, because my hands will be in plain sight.

  40. It never ceases to amuse me when “pro-2nd Amendment/anti-tyranny” type right-wingers find any excuse to justify police abuse of someone who isn’t them.

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