Major League Baseball bans concealed carry in stadia wherever its teams are playing. This is not news. Nor should anyone be surprised to learn that plenty of fans have carried otherwise legal concealed firearms at MLB ball games, regardless. Yes, well, TTAG reader Michael in GA writes that the League is now deploying portable metal detectors to prevent fans from brings guns, knives and large pieces of metal to games. In fact, all Major League teams are required to use the enhanced security measures by Opening Day 2015. A fact that didn’t work out so well for our man Michael . . .
I was stranded outside Comerica Park while CCW because they had portable metal detectors at every gate. I am here for a company event and was dropped off at the stadium via charter bus so I could not simply stow my pistol in my vehicle which is parked at Atlanta Hartsfield Jackson International Airport a few states away from Detroit.
Remember last year a Detroit Delta ticked agent called police to confiscate 30 rounds (all of my defensive ammo) because they were in two magazines locked in a hard case…which is supposed to be acceptable. If I was not paid to come to this annual event, I would never set foot in Baghdad…um…I mean Detroit again. TTAG might want to get on this story so this doesn’t catch anybody else off guard like I was.
True dat. Getting “caught off guard” for carrying a firearm illegally could ruin your whole day. Depending on the location (e.g., an airport security checkpoint or anywhere in New Jersey) you could be arrested and, yes, jailed. You could lose your gun rights. Or your job. Or be arrested, jailed, lose your gun rights and your job. And lots and lots of your money.
Carrying in compliance with the law is easier said than done. The U.S. is home to a patchwork of gun control laws that make it incredibly difficult to know where and when you’re good to stow. Find out which apply to you. Do NOT rely on advise from the police. Check the web for an authoritative source, then find another one, then check the actual statute.
As for readers who carry illegally, valuing their life above the possibility of arrest, my take is that it’s not worth it, generally. I know: you have a natural, civil and Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms. I know: you can’t move or get a different job. I know: you don’t want to be a victim. But . . .
There are plenty of non-firearm self-defense techniques and tools that you can use to defend yourself and your loved ones. Nothing is better than a firearm for a defensive weapon – unless you don’t have one. In which case there are plenty of somethings that are better than nothing, from legal knives to canes. They require more training and increased situational awareness. But they’re worth it. Using them instead of carrying illegally reduces the risks enumerated above.
Don’t be that guy; the guy who would never hurt anyone (other than a criminal) who lost his gun rights for doing nothing more than carrying a gun.
Damned if we do, damned if we don’t. Got it.
To the OP: I would have found the closest place (probably bus or train station) with rental lockers and stashed it in there till the game was over.
Does any place still have those? I’ve noticed that rental lockers at such places have become a rare sight in the years since we declared “war on terror”. Seems a lot of people are afraid someone might stash a bomb in one.
Stash a gun in one, and it might go off, too. /sarc
Rental lockers have been gone a lot longer than that – because somebody did stash a bomb in one. LaGuardia Airport in NYC in the mid-70’s.
I was just a mere two weeks ago ccing around Comercia Park… not in it. FWIW the airport is approximately 25 minutes from there and there are no us or train stations nearby.
In live in LA, the only law people in my neighborhood follow is the law of the jungle.
It actually works out pretty well most of the time. No metal detectors on street corners.
Yet…
Wait, no outrage or bluster about how The Man denies you your right to self defense during sporting events, complete with derogatory remarks concerning those whose job is to prevent you from doing so? No temper-tantrums, snide remarks or vitriol? Just fated acceptance and obey the law?
Who replace Farago and what have you done with him?
IMO the league has the right to ban weapons in their stadiums, but they should also be held liable for any injury you sustain because someone walks through their ‘security’ with a weapon. Or for that matter they’d better provide plenty of on site parking as well, because if you’re mugged walking the mile and a half back to your car they should be liable for that too.
The thing that frosts my cake is, the league doesn’t OWN the stadiums. They are owned by the local cities or teams or whatever. So they strong-arm the teams into exercising their property rights in a way that infringes on our civil rights.
Like any other “gun free zone” that doesn’t need to be, our best (only) recourse is to avoid those venues and send letters to the decision-makers letting them know why they won’t be getting our money.
Who actually owns the stadium is a moot point because the teams lease the property like probably 80 or 90% of retail businesses.
Stadiums are EXPRESSLY covered as a prohibited site under. Michigan law for concealed carry. You could open carry in a prohibited area but they can ask you to leave. My advice is make some friends and have someone to call when things happen. I try to keep people in various places in case i need help, and likewise, they expect the same of me
Can someone please explain to me why nobody has sued a business for denying them their right to self-defense?Or if they have, what the outcome was? I understand that it’s a well-established legal doctrine that the cops have no duty to protect, but what about private citizens/businesses? It seems like if my local supermarket (other than Fry’s–thanks, Kroger!) wants me to disarm myself before I walk in, then they should be expected by a jury to provide reasonable measures for my defense while I’m in their store and parking lot.
What if instead of telling all these companies that we’re boycotting, we instead put them all on notice that if we get victimized on their property, we intend to sue? A $1,000,000 settlement is a heck of a lot more important to them than a $250 weekly grocery tab.
Two issues with a civil suit. First you have to have ’cause’ and since the courts don’t recognize the ‘right to bear arms’ to be a constitutionally protected right, that means you would have to be shot or otherwise injured before you would have cause. Otherwise the damages would be $0.00 because you haven’t suffered a loss. Then you would have to prove that you would not have been injured anyway if you were armed.
There are a handful of states that make the business owners legally responsible for the safety of their customers if they disarm them, but most in states you’re fighting an uphill battle.
You are not being forced to patronize the business, therefore the business is not denying you any rights.
Grindstone, try telling that to a gay couple wanting to use your services in their wedding.
Constitutional rights don’t apply to private property. The owner of a business would be no more infringing on your 2A rights by banning guns in his store than he would be infringing on your 1A rights by prohibiting you from holding a church service there.
Actually, it might be more accurate to say Constitutional rights DO apply to private property, with property rights taking precedence over certain rights of visitors.
Constitutional rights have to be balanced when they come into conflict.
Maybe a lawyer on TTAG could explain it for us in the proper terminology.
To be totally fair, I’ve seen a lot of contrary advice coming through and I think it is helpful to offer both sides of the coin. The most prominent examples I’ve seen: “Self-Defense Tip – Listen to the 911 Operator” followed by “Self-Defense Tip: Ignore the 911 Operator”. “Leave the area” vs “Stay at the scene”.
I think it’s good thing. If you follow the blog, he’s offering helpful advice and offering multiple perspectives. It’s up to the reader to evaluate the pros and cons of these options and make their choice accordingly.
Generally speaking I concur that an unjust law/rule shouldn’t be followed. If your work is a gun-free zone, you can chose to carry and maybe get fired if caught, it’s your call to evaluate the risk of being fired vs the risk of needing a heater and not having one available. But it’s up to the reader to make the decision if it is worth risking your Constitutional rights in the pursuit of exercising them. In an ideal world we wouldn’t have to make that decision. Sadly we do, and honestly fighting a felony weapons charge doesn’t sound like fun.
Just got a text from my buddy…Coors Field has also installed metal detectors. I don’t care if MLB wants more people to get mugged outside their stadiums but I think the self defense advocates need to be told in advance that this policy was implemented. What is the point of TTAG if information like this isn’t part of the programming?
The title to this article should have been: Self Defense Tip: Stay Away From A Major League Ballgame.
If baseball wasn’t so damn boring, I might be upset about this…
JK.
Yes and when I submitted my story, it being categorized as a self defense tip was the last thing I thought of.
Self Defense Tip: Don’t Carry Your Gun In Downtown Detroit. Really!?
I’m not buying it.
He either got from Atlanta to Detroit by either flyng or driving on this charter bus.
Either way, it’s a good bet that he and his party checked into their hotel rooms first. If he has a hotel, he has access to a hotel safe.
I don’t think there’s a person in America who doesn’t know that MLB and NFL stadiums are gun free and they have metal detectors.
He may want us to believe he’s a victim, but I think it’s just poor planning on his part.
I don’t think there’s a person in America who doesn’t know that MLB and NFL stadiums are gun free and they have metal detectors
I’ve made it through 68 years without knowing that until this thread, and would have died not knowing, because I don’t care, attended a baseball game once, over 60 years ago, football never. His statement was that he was there for his employment, I see no reason to assume he regularly attended such events and could be expected to know all their nonsensical restrictions on his freedom. Which restrictions were not always there, you can be sure.
Why anybody pays the kind of money we’re talking about today to watch spoiled, grown men play children’s games I’ll never figure. And that’s from a guy who’s paid $1500 to reserve his family’s seats at November’s F1 race in Austin! Now, THAT is entertainment!
What do you think of the new FIA rule that drivers/teams can no longer use their radios to discuss the car performance?
(story is on BBC F1 page)
I dunno; I’m still bent out of shape over the Designated Hitter Rule.
It’s a half baked rule that could easily be controverted with code words. Besides I don’t think it’s been agreed to by the FIA or the teams (but I don’t know if ratification from these entities is necessary). An article I read also indicated that more info is forthcoming before Singapore.
See y’all in Austin!! A great, world class circuit.
I just found out from of this article.
The last time I was in a sports stadium was the Microsoft
propaganda rallycompany meeting in 2010. They didn’t have metal detectors at the entrance we used, just badge readers to keep out non-employees.Nobody seemed to notice, or care, that I was carrying. But other than bars and the typical government buildings (schools, post offices, jails, courts, etc.) it’s not illegal to carry anywhere in WA. But if the management asks you to leave, and you refuse, it could be trespassing.
Linux linux linux linux.
Also, I carry illegally at ballparks every year. Huge baseball fan and have a minor league team just a few miles from my home. I either carry a small knife or get there early and get to my seat before the “security” guards arrive. In all the years I’ve been going, I have never once had them search me, but they search my wife’s purse every single time.
It does help to have a badge on my belt, but only so far as they don’t actually look at it and see that I’m a PI and not a law enforcement officer.
Hope MS never sees this. Remember it is in the Microsoft employee guide book that you can’t bring firearms on any rented, owned, or leased property by Microsoft.
@Forrest:
When asked how he could play in Arizona, when they didn’t have MLK day as a paid government holiday, Charles Barkley once remarked that he’d play for the KKK if they paid him enough.
That pretty much sums up my logic in accepting an offer from MS. They had to give me a free copy of Windows 7 though, so I could create a VM with it and work from home. Their VPN tools don’t work with OS X or Linux.
And they search your wife’s purse so she can’t sneak in recording equipment or food. They’re much more concerned about bootleg videos, and people not paying $5 for a soda.
@justAMan:
I think they’d be more upset that I carried in the office, since I worked in building 34, and Steve B walked past my office at least once a week. But once my signing bonus and stock grant fully vested, I left for greener pastures.
@forrest, in MI as a PI that is good enoigh to be Web able to carry anywhere as long as you apply for that type of CPL
Larry, what’s the concealed carry policy at Circuit of the Americas? Do they have 30.06 signs posted?
Can’t. It’s a professional sporting event which is auto ban and they started to put up 30.06 signs too.
Serious question: Is it coincidence that Texas 30.06 signage is “similar” to ” “thirty-oh-six” (.30-06 Springfield)?
“Why anybody pays the kind of money we’re talking about today to watch retarded thugs on steroids play children’s games I’ll never figure. ” there, FIFY
Yep, I have to agree with ya and the previous posters as far as that goes. I have never been a big fan of any of the professional team sports and the more they hire thugs to play for them just means that there will be more thugs in the stands. Now the new Braves Stadium is gonna be built in my county and I and the rest of the tax payers will be stuck with the bill and the traffic and the additional crime and law enforcement costs. So, no I don’t think much of MLB.
Hey, I know people that are happy it’s not gonna be built in Cherokee County…
The Atlanta Braves are in the MLB last time I checked and they do not have metal detectors.
NFL yes but this is a first for MLB. If not…why didn’t you say something about it? I carried concealed last year in Comerica and Turner Field and twice this year in Turner Field and once at Cool Ray Field. So don’t tell me that everybody knows they had metal detectors. That is a lie.
As RF posted above, MLB is just now getting around to actually enforcing the gun ban. Lot’s of people have been walking right passed the ‘security’ (ticket takers) with their concealed weapons for years.
You are correct. What is wrong with people on here?
OP here. I flew from Atlanta. I did not leave my firearm in the hotel because…welll, it’s my firearm I carry for defense. Last year at this same event, I had my pistol on me at the game. Twice this year I carried at Braves games. I was not expecting the Tiger game to be any different than the Braves’. The charter buses drove us from the hotel to the park. I got to the gate and saw the screeners. I went back to the bus but the driver was not there and the bus was locked. I went to a local pub and watched it on tv. This will curtail my patronage of sporting events in the future.
Whether or not that should be the policy, it is their policy.
Reading that you had a similar problem before with Delta – I’d imagine you’d have thus been more diligent in your research. I’ve never actually flown with a firearm, but I already knew that most airlines have this policy about loaded magazines. Is it dumb? Sure. Is it hard to learn about? No.
Search for ‘flying with a gun’ and the 3rd hit for me is a TTAG article mentioning how while it is not against TSA policy – many airlines interpret it that way. The 5th hit was AA’s policy which prohibits it. And so on. Their plane, their rules.
As a practical matter; why create the hassle? I’m not saying “roll over to the Man” – but what difference does it make to you whether it’s in a magazine or not? You’re already disarmed, so who cares? Magazine takes <1 minute to load.
It's not so much about picking your battles; but deciding where to fight them. So most of us probably agree TSA's security theatre is worthless. Is arguing about it with the minimum wage agent going to do anything? No and neither will this. It'll just show up in the news as 'nut tries to bring gun into football game'
Don’t be such a dick. You said you don’t fly with your firearm so you have no reason to speak. The magazine can be loaded and that is the way I keep it. I carry my gun into the terminal loaded (legal). Then I drop the mag and clear the chamber. I box up my firearm and check it at the counter. When I get to the destination airport, I reload the gun before I leave baggage claim. I am not going to sit there and insert 15 rounds one at a time. When and if you ever fly with your gun, do it however you want but mind your own business with me. Are we clear?
Guess you skipped this part of the story. ” I am here for a company event and was dropped off at the stadium via charter bus”
That sucks, but I am glad I do not like baseball or many sports for that matter. And now I have more reason to not get into them. I say do not support them for this reason alone.
I agree.
And when minor league baseball institutes the same lunacy, I’ll quit going to those as well.
John
I went to the Red Sox last Saturday and my wife showed me where it said quite clearly “no guns”. Much as I don’t like going “in town” unarmed, I did. And I’m glad I did because Fenway had walk thru metal detectors, security personnel with wands, and so forth. I would have been screwed having no place to safely store my piece.
Why do gun owners continue to patronize entities who despise their rights and liberties? Don’t go to their damn stupid ball games! Leave their stores empty and their shelves packed with merchandise. Let their food rot waiting to be bought. The only reason they continue exist is because gun owners feed them.
Amen!
THANK you, SIR!
I have had a bellyful of people bragging about how they go ahead and patronize these businesses while concealing. Yeah, really clever outsmarting the anti-gunner. As you hand him your hard-earned money.
I love baseball. Why should I give up something I enjoy just because I am Black? No wait, I am not black. Why should I give up something I enjoy just because I am handicapped…no that’s not it either. Why should I give up something I enjoy just because I legally carry a gun? Do we really need a civil rights act to protect gun carry just like the ADA? Sadly I think so.
I agree. We cannot trust each state and locality to “roll their own” interpretation of the 2nd amendment.
Guess we go back to sling shots. Carbon fiber, with expoxy rounds…with pic rail & lazer
Nah, just sneak your porcelain Glock 7 in there, nobody will notice.
I don’t make enough money in 2 months to buy one of those.
What, even an overpaid DC airport cop like you? (Oh, wait…the gun only costs more than the captain of that fine force makes in ONE month.)
The only thing I’ve ever been captain of is my own destiney. And I gave that up when I got married.
Or you could use it as a way to take it to the supreme court that bear means bear! Ill help. Everyone else should too!
Anyone else running iOS and getting sent to App Store without clicking anything? This is horribly annoying.
Yea, I sent an email to Robert. He said it shouldn’t be happening and that they are working on it. Hopefully they’ll get it wrapped up soon.
This is well known. It started happening to me on my ipad mini. That pissef me off! I cleared history, cookies and everything I could clear and it stopped. You can Google the issue and install some blocker that stops it. I can’t remember the name though.
Android, too. Got sent to the play store twice about an hour or so ago. Make that about a minute ago. Farmville 2, no thank you.
I run Ad Blocker on my browser and my Android devices. I haven’t had that problem.
yep. it has happened before, and Dan Z said they would fix it. The fix didn’t last long.
I just don’t go…
I am richer for it too.
Actually, if he would have brushed up on MI CCW restrictions before visiting the state, he would have known that he couldn’t carry in a stadium.
That said, he was probably just rebuffed at the gate and told he couldn’t attend while packing. Not the end of the world…
Went to a Twins game last year. While I couldn’t carry anywhere in Minnesota because the Dumb Fvck!ng Liberals in Minnesota refuse to return the favor and honor Iowa permits, I did notice that I could have walked right in with my Beretta 92, 2 spare mags and a pistol grip shotgun if I had chose to. I also didn’t see a single uniformed officer anywhere, although I’m sure there were a few down by the field. If they’re going to ban weapons the ought to screen for them (doesn’t seem all that hard to figure out).
I would say that a firearm is not the best weapon in such a crowded place. Any over-penetration is almost guaranteed to injure someone. But then a lot of these parks are in pretty bad neighborhoods, and you usually have to walk quite a ways to get to them. Still, best to know these things before you’re stuck outside looking for knotholes.
Ummmmm…sorry guy you get no sympathy here. As a responsible gun owner and a CCW holder you are responsible to know the law….especially when traveling to another state. Obviously you did no research or you’d known it’s against the law in Michigan to carry in facilities that seat over 2500 people. Now maybe you did read the law and simply chose to ignore it and hoped they didn’t have metal detectors….which makes you an even bigger @!&$@. It’s guys like you who give all responsible gun owners a bad name and offer ammunition to the anti gunners. Do is all a favor and sell your guns.
This is why I will simply never travel to New Jersey.
Do us all a favor and sell your guns? REALLY?
MAYBE, just maybe, when he left his home in GA for this business trip, he did not know the employer was going to take/send them to this game. Or other possibilities.
Agree with the sentiment that it is our responsibility to know that law, but think this response is a bit over the top. Especially since he ended up not doing anything wrong (he did not enter illegally) and he said he just wanted to send out a ‘head’s up’ that the League is enforcing THEIR ban (regardless of State Law…as in, not all states have a no-stadium rule).
So, could we lighten up just a little bit and not be quite so histrionic?
Sorry JR . But it doesn’t pass the smell test this guy didn’t know the itinerary of his business trip. Unless companies are in the habit of flying people into town to go to a baseball game then flying them right back he stayed at a motel. So he knew damn well he was going to the stadium when he got the bus. Fact was he was oblivious to Michigan laws. Or he didn’t care and only stopped when he saw he might get caught. Couple this with him being oblivious to easily found and understood Delta airline policies tells me all i need to know. This is a guy who doesn’t take gun ownership or CCW seriously. I can tell you from experience guys like this also don’t take other aspects like safety etc seriously. We need to police our own. I stand by what i said…he either needs to get serious about his responsibilities as a gun owner or sell his guns.
“he either needs to get serious about his responsibilities as a gun owner or sell his guns.”
So, how’s the O2 up in the lofty, rarefied air on your high horse?
You never make a mistake, misunderstood something your company was doing/going to do, misread a policy?
What exact responsibility did he violate? He saw the metal detector and stayed outside. The airline thing was last year – a completely separate incident; perhaps if repeated that mistake knowing the rule, my response would be different.
He did not kill anyone. He did not threaten anyone. He did not break any law. He did not even break a rule. He did not have an ND or commit any safety violation.
Geez. Sell his guns for standing outside a stadium and missing a baseball game. Oh, the HORROR.
(Yes, that’s me making fun of your over-the-top reaction to what really happened).
I take gun ownership very seriously, because I respect the lethality that a firearm has and is capable of delivering as a defensive tool. The fact that I pay a ten dollar tax to the state granting me their permission to be able to defend my family and any innocent bystanders around me from some savage thug isn’t very responsible to me. I pay the tax on my constitutionally guaranteed rights so I don’t have to open carry my 1911 in a shoulder holster and my Glock 30 around and risk offending some liberal or hypocritical gun owner like yourself into getting me SWATted. Before applying for the CCW permit you have to do soul searching and know that if confronted by an attacker that you will not hesitate in shuffling them off this mortal coil. A CCW makes a moral decision to carry a tool that brings lethal force into every single interaction, and you are saying they can’t be trusted to make their own choice on when and where they can be allowed to protect themselves. In my experience those that freely give away the responsibility of personal safety and allow another to say how they may protect their families, are the gun owners who need to sell their firearms.
C’mon, man, this is TTAG. If anything, his comment wasn’t histrionic enough. 😉
LOL. Fair enough. You’re right. If we can’t all wildly speculate, jump to conclusions, scapegoat our own fellow gun owners and jump on ALL the bandwagons, what do we have? 😉
I’m such a killjoy sometimes.
Agreed. That response was way over the top. If the guy got pinched for going in with a gun and then started pissing and cursing the league, that would be better reason to b***h him out and tell him to sell his guns, but he didn’t. He just didn’t go in.
Honestly, if I were him I probably would have done the same thing. I don’t go to any sports games, especially professional (bunch of winey *explicit deleted* *explicit deleted* *explicit deleted*) games. I wouldn’t know any different unless someone told me to look out for it. The knowledge wouldn’t be usefull for me 99.99999% of the time.
Apparently, even the local residents needed a heads up to the changes. It was on local news. And by the reporting, it seems that it was understood that people were conceal carrying inside before this season. I mentioned before that I attended two Braves games this year with my pistol and did the Tigers game last year with my pistol. So I don’t understand the animosity towards my Constitutionally protected actions.
http://shar.es/11PnKk
It’s guys like you that allow the unconstitutional laws to get passed in the first place. For that sir I give you the IGOTD award. That is the Irresponsible Gun Owner of The Decade.
Dempsterdumpster, I’m running iOS 7.1.2 on my iPad Air with no issues. Try restoring in iTunes and see if that helps.
The stadiums in Arizona belong to us tax payers so I don’t see how the teams have any say on whether or not I carry a gun. That is a publicly owned building and it requires a law to be passed to make it a gun free establishment and no private entity can keep me from carrying on public land or public property even to watch a game. It’s not the teams stadium, they don’t own it or pay rent for it. It is not their house or business so if they hang a no guns sign it is not enforceable by rule of law again unless there is a law passed making ball parks a gun free zone.
MI is different from AZ. Please review some of the other comments on this thread.
Why don’t you try reading the article before commenting. From the article:
“…all Major League teams are required to use the enhanced security measures by Opening Day 2015”
Unfortunately, sports arenas, stadiums, or entertainment venues that seat more than 2500 are prohibited areas for concealed carry under Michigan law (section 28.425o).
At least Michigan law got the no duty to retreat part right.
Oh well. Either obey signs or don’t give them your business. Those who get arrested have no excuse. I don’t like it, and I want to see it changed, but that’s life. Let our boycott send a message to them: no guns, mo business.
Boycotts are more effective on some businesses than others. When people line up to pay $9 for a 16 ounce beer and $7.50 for a brat that not even as good as the ones they sell at your local convenience store for a dollar I can’t see MLB getting the message anytime soon.
Only go to pro games when I get free tix to my employer’s corp suite.
“Those who get arrested have no excuse.”
Just to throw this out there, but disobeying a sign or a private property owner’s ‘ban’ on firearms is not always going to directly lead to arrest. Sometimes, it can just trigger request to leave or face trespassing charge.
Also…the guy’s complaining about Delta at Detroit Metro Airport shows again his irresponsibility. I’ve flown with them a ton of times. Their policy is very clear. A ten second google search will find it. All ammo must be in the original or similar container. It can’t be loose or in the mags. The cops weren’t called because Delta wanted to be jerks. They were called probably because the guy couldn’t check the ammo per policy, the agent cant take possession, and you can’t just dump 30 rnds of ammo in a trash can so the cops had to take it. Again….he failed to even perform the smallest of tasks to make sure he’s aware of the policies, procedures, and laws regarding his firearms.
http://www.delta.com/content/www/en_US/traveling-with-us/baggage/before-your-trip/special-items.html#shooting
Ammo storage requirement is actually set by airline policy. I used fly Frontier before it got “the Spirit” and all you had to do was put masking tape over the business end of the magazine. US Air and American require in the original packaging These are the only airlines I have flown with a firearm.
Like your comment on Frontier getting the “Spirit”.
I’ve quit flying them unless I absolutely have to.
NB: Keep at least one empty box from your carry ammo!
(Or alternatively, have an empty extra mag and an unopened box, quicker packing for the trip that way. Of course your logistics may force you not to leave anything behind at the departure airport, in which case back to plan A.)
” A ten second google search will find it. All ammo must be in the original or similar container. It can’t be loose or in the mags”
Wrong! It says it has to be in original packaging “or” in fiber, metal, plastic, or any container designed to hold small arms ammunition. A magazine is designed to hold small arms ammunithion and keep the cartrages separate and it does not mention that magazines must be empty. Only that the gun must be unloaded.
I asked the ticket agent if I could cover the primer with a piece of tape and he said no. I just wanted to get on the flight so I let him have the ammo. What I did not realize was that the cop would take a picture of my ID and file a report. When the cop walked away with my ammo I asked him what was to become of it. He said it would be destroyed or be shot at the police range. I said Shoot it don’t waste it.
Good luck trying to fly with loaded mags. The exposed primer of the top round is usually the stickler, and I don’t know of any pistol mags with magpul-style dust covers.
Used mag pouches that have a Velcro flap to close them. Didn’t need them anyway because no one going or returning even asked me to unlock the case. They asked me if it was unloaded and I said yes and signed the card and that was that.
For all the guys that don’t fly with their weapons, trying to give advice on how to do it, I do not unload my defensive ammo unless it goes out through the barrel. I conceal carry into the terminal and only then do I take the mag out and the one in the pipe. When I get to the destination airport, I put the mag back in, chamber a round, holster it concealed before I leave the airport.
If you are not willing to consistently carry then you are playing roulette. I’ll be damned if I get mugged during so many of those opportunities to be disarmed.
Nice link! That is the exact link I used when I read this:
“Ensure small arms ammunition is packed in the manufacturer’s original package or securely packed in fiber, wood, plastic or metal boxes and provide separation for cartridges.”
A magazine is a metal box that provides separation for cartridges plus I had them inside a locked hard case. Requirement met and if you can’t understand that then you are as retarded as the Detroit Delta agent. BTW, had no issue traveling either way this time packing my gun and ammo in the exact same manner so thanks for you contribution to the discussion but I found it worthless.
I don’t get to a lot of MLB games but I went to one a month ago in a similar situation. An organized group, and we took a bus from the hotel.
Metal detectors were at the gates, though it was nothing like a TSA experience. Glad I asked about the policy beforehand and left the Glock at the hotel. If I had been carrying, I would have been S.O.L!
We’re allowing our lawmakers to infringe. Look at all the compliant gun owner’s comments on here. Some call me names for exercising freedom. I imagine when the gun ban comes to the home, these guys will gladly hand them over. Sheep.
Don’t know why anyone would visit a stadium that disarms paying customers. Tons of drunk people who hate the other half of the audience get into fights all the time there, and you bet they don’t have enough security to watch the thousands of baseball fans at the same time.
In case you didn’t figure it out…I have a warped outlook on things. Since most things are wrong, I am proud of that.
Your comment reminded me of something that went through my mind when I was talking to security…unarmed security, and that was “If I wanted to murder people with a gun at this baseball game…I would start with you”.
That wasn’t a threatening thought and I was not upset with the guy. I was thinking of the lack of logic behind a gun free zone. They were all very nice even ridiculously coming up with ways to get into the game. One said leave it with the bus driver. Another one said break down the pistol and just leave parts with the driver. I wonder what part of a Glock 19 could I bring in? We all looked at her like she was an alien. She said “Hey I’m just trying to come up with something because I have a CPL and I know how you feel”. I said “Thanks. At least you are trying”. Then one guard said in a low voice “You know what you should do? Find a lady with a big purse”. Bags were not getting screened or searched thoroughly. To all the guys that call me irresponsible…I took full responsibility and did not try to sneak my gun in even at the suggestion of the gate personnel.
The only people who really, really need guns at an NFL game are the players’ wives.
now that’s funny!
The detectors at Comerica park are new…they’ve even put commercials on local radio stations asking people not to even bring their guns downtown, as they’ll now be forced to leave them in their cars, which means they’ll end up stolen….
I’m not so much concerned about carrying inside the stadium, it’s the to and from the car, as well as the drive there and back. If I get a flat tire, or otherwise stranded, I want to be able to protect myself.
This! Exactly! I offered to leave it in a locker but they have no such service.
The other thing to be aware of is does your state allow a CCW weapon to be carried at a sporting event? I have a CHL and my state doesn’t permit it so whether MLB or NFL or any other sports monopoly sets its own rules, it is secondary to what your state permits.
If you see me in public on the free side of a search…I have a gun. I do not respect any rule that infringes on my right to bear arms.
I haven’t been to a major league game since the 80’s. But I got no sympathy. Know what the he## you’re doing…especially if you claim to be some kind of professional.
Michigan law is clear, sports stadiums are off limits. So I’m confused as to why this guy is crying. Either he’s an oblivious tard or intended to commit a crime and ignore MI law.
Dano,
You did notice the fact that the man is from Georgia and visiting in Michigan on business, right? Georgia has no such restriction on concealed carry. I am pretty confident the man had no idea about Michigan’s long list of restrictions (I believe second only to Illinois).
Ignorance is no excuse. When in MI, MI laws apply – It’s that simple, it’s black and white, it’s non-negotiable. If this fool can’t do 7 minutes of research then I question why he’s carrying a firearm and leaving his home state.
The founding fathers of the United States of America ignored a few laws. Martin Luther King was jailed. You ignored your states sodomy law. So I carried a gun into several MLB games before they erected metal detectors. And you want to call me retarded? Tell us your great story of exercised freedom Dano.
This guy is a bone head, a simple no frills bone head. Malls, sports stadiums, and schools are and have been historically anything but friendly. He failed to do any research and wants to cry foul about private property owners and lease holders putting rules in place.
Oh I got me some frills!
The pro sports teams in Denver all ban firearms and anything they deem “dangerous”. There are metal detectors at some gates, but anyone entering is subject to a random wanding. It’s not worth it to me to risk being turned away, so I just don’t go.
Screw them.
Hey, RF….
Open carry with a CPL is (as the laws are written, at least) not only legal at Comerica park, but preempted, too.
If someone wished to open carry there, legally they would have to let them in or potentially face a lawsuit…
Let’s do it!
Safeco field in Seattle has walk through detectors and hand wands. Neither detected my good sized pocket knife.
I no longer go anywhere that prohibits concealed carry.
What really bothers me is NRA-affiliated gun clubs that prohibit concealed carry.
Or gun shows or…
Yep…that too…
I have much better advise than “don’t carry illegally”: don’t go to venues where people are guaranteed to be disarmed — especially when those venues have thousands of people.
Even if you think nothing will happen to you in a “safe” building or stadium (there is no such thing by the way), the walk to and from the building/stadium is just begging to be victimized. No sports game or convention is worth your life.
doh! I meant to spell “advice” rather than “advise”. I am way down on sleep today.
If you’re not victimized en route to the sports venue, then surely you will be at the ticket booth and concessions stand.
Billionaires getting corporate welfare to put on a game where millionaires play children’s games, AND they want me to pay $9.50 for a twelve ounce cup of beer?! They can suck it.
My wife & I went when our son was an infant to local farm club team. They were more concerned with thr bottle of breast milk than my pistol to the point of asking to taste it. Told him he was a pervert asked for his boss who also told him he was a pervert. We would have left but with a church group no choice.
Saw armed security that needed slingshots not glocks. I have been back 1 time chaperoning a church outing, tried to physically search male & female told me to disarm politely told him I was police and legally required to carry all times. I then asked for the promotions director again she was fine with it also told her that person of the same sex should pat down. Long story but he was doing something outside his job description he was a registered sex offender he ended up violated. Church no longer does the outings and they now actually check employees. They do prohibit anyone carrying proper signs posted & not a penny of my money, the church dropped thrm for molesting & anti-gun (minister hunts & carries) he also had several other groups stop.
The ball park was paid for with tax funds, bond issue and has refinaced twice the neighborhood is a DMZ and a number of local CCW people refuse to go. It will fail as miserably with a good portion of the anti 2A posistion being the cause.
Thanks for the headsup Michael, and RF for publishing it- would not have known about the upcoming MLB policy otherwise.
I don’t know how CCW permit holders can keep up with all the local and private location gun bans, in advance, with 100% accuracy. Andrew Branca’s book and website is a good start, but its only case law, jury instructions, etc: http://lawofselfdefense.com/blog/
AFAIK there is no comprehensive “where can carry” resource, but maybe a TTAG reader can point to one.
More reason to have a nationwide constitutional carry permit, that rationalizes state and local codes. That may seem far-fetched, but then so did passing “right to carry” in all 50 states, even just a decade ago.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rtc.gif
Bottomline, I dont go to stadium games much now, and this is just another reason not to put up with the crowds, drunks, parking, and high ticket prices, when the gun ban goes into effect.
On principle alone, I avoid gun-free zones, and would boycott paying for them, as it makes them TARGET RICH zone for criminals or worse- Terrorists. http://legalinsurrection.com/2014/08/texas-and-california-in-crosshairs-of-isis-and-al-qaeda/
No…I’m a bone headded a-hole too lazy to look up thousands of policies around the free country we live in just to exercise a right.
I appreciate you and RF putting it up here too. Some people on here just seem to live their daily lives waiting to get their panties in a bunch from riding such tall horses.
The myriad of overlapping laws, rules and policies make it difficult to find a specific answer to a specific question at times so people make mistakes…. It happens.
Actually until December 21, it would not be illegal for this person to have carried concealed into Comerica Park. The restrictions currently only apply to Michigan license holders,them and only them. They do not currently apply to nonresidents carrying under a home state license.
No restrictions for concealed carry apply to non residents carrying under 750.231 or 750.227.
The restrictions in 28.425o ONLY apply to MI CPL holders issued a license under 28.425b.
The author carrying under a Georgia Weapons License is not licensed under MCL 28.425b …. Therefore MCL 28.425o DOES NOT APPLY…. Until 12-21-2014.
Absolutely false….restrictions apply to michigan licenses and those licenced by other states with reciprocity agreements. Please site sources for your info. Our better yet….walk into a restricted places with a concealed handgun, call the cops, and tell them it doesn’t apply to you as you have an out of state license.
http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7-123-1591_3503_4654-10947–,00.html
The only changes going into affect Dec21 are provisions regarding keeping license holder info private
Please read the law instead of arguing. I don’t care what the website says, I care what the law says.
28.425o
(1) Subject to subsection (5), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:
Non residents carry under section 12a(1)(h)
In case you didn’t catch that
NON RESIDENTS CARRY UNDER SECTION 12a(1)(h)
28.425o does not address section 12a(1)(h) carry.
Besides, the state police aren’t interested in informing you of your rights, they totally leave out 28.432(1)(f) and how it exempts those people (including residents) from handgun registration.
According to MI legislative website
28.425o IS changing 12-21-2014
My crystal ball says they are changing 12a(1)(f) to 12a(1)(h) because the RINO’s wanted to be sure the misery is spread to non-residents.
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(auhdmd55h1bwyc45sbikmt55))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-28-425o
Last year, at the Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo Cookoff, they had those dinky little handheld metal detectors. Firearms aren’t legally banned the event (though they would be at the rodeo itself a week later, which is a professional sporting event), so I’m not even sure what they were checking for. I’d guess maybe contraband booze, but who knows?
The min. wage worker, not even a licensed security guard, running the wand actually banged against my IWB G26 two or three times, audibly, tactiley and the buzzer never went off. I think I saw the LED was on, so maybe it was on, but I wouldn’t take any comfort in these toys and those handlers actually detecting anything and keeping any place secure. Still, if there were legal consequences in the offing, I wouldn’t risk it.
“Carrying in compliance with the law……” Exactly what I thought from this shill web-site. This site will help condition the people who read it without critical thinking skills to surrender their rights in the name of policies.
Premises on which carrying concealed weapon or portable device that uses electro-muscular disruption technology prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsections (1) and (2); violation; penalties.
Sec. 5o.
(1) Subject to subsection (5), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:
…
(c) A sports arena or stadium.
he should not even have been concealing there. learn the state laws before carrying in another state
Section 28.425o doesn’t apply to him ( until 12-21-2014 when the law changes) for the following reason.
1. He is not licensed under 425b
2. He is not carrying under section 12a(1)(f)
Those are the ONLY 2 groups of people that 425o applies to.
This man was carrying under Section 12a(1)(h).
Just like you obey state sodomy laws.
I don’t give my hard earned cash to professional sports players, nor the owners of the teams.
Sec 5o
(d) A bar or tavern… where the primary source of income of the business is the same of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises.
He still violated Michigan law.
It’s not a bar or tavern where the primary source of income is alcohol by the glass.
It’s a stadium and an “entertainment facility”.
No…I spent the duration of the game at a tequila bar down the block. So if there is a law against conceal carrying in the bar then I broke that law too. I ordered a shot of Dos Lunas Resposado and the bar keep said they were out so he gave me the Anejo for the Resposado price. $12 vs. $18. Then I ordered a Negra Modelo draught with my Carnitas. The owner came up to me while I was sipping the fine Tequila and said “you can take your time to enjoy the good stuff”. Then he said try the Tres Generationes and gave it to me on the house. I sat there watching the game talking to the bartender and I told him why I was not at the game. He was sympathetic as were the security people at the stadium. Then he gave me another Negra Modelo, larger size, and said it was complementary as well.
He mentioned going to the game Friday so I gave him my unused meal voucher to use. All around it was a good time and I was packing my Glock 19 and good times were had by all. Absence of unconstitutional gun laws, does anyone think good times will cease?
No Michael, you did not break any law. People around here just haven’t actually read and understood what Michigan law says. They just assume what their instructors or what the state police told them is legit.
As I’ve already said three times on here, a nonresident has more rights than a Michigan resident does when it comes to carry because of how 28.425o is written.
28.425o ONLY applies to MI CPL holders and to people under 12a(1)(f)….. You were carrying under 12a(1)(h).
28.425o says diddily squat about 12a(1)(h) carry.
But keep in mind in case you do come back here. Starting December 21st 28.425o has been re-written to include section 12a(1)(h).
No legal knives at the ballpark now. I’m gonna have to get one of those zytel blades and a combat umbrella.
Umbrellas were specifically mentioned as restricted items but firearms were not. They told me that weapons were understood to be restricted.
The sheriff deputy that taught my gun safety course said that if you see him standing…he’s carrying his .357 concealed. He showed his badge to an Atlanta cop at a Falcons game and they would not let him in. He vowed never to go to a pro football game again. He told us he concealed at baseball games all the time. I guess he will have to skip those now as well. He basically said that off duty he carried everywhere there was no searches (the law be damned) and I chose to do the same for myself. If I am out and about on the free side of a metal detector, I have my gun on me.
@Detroiter, Tyler, state laws restricting rights…hmmmm. Well soon enough you will be justifying essentially no carry anywhere because in a democracy it only takes 51% to vote away your rights, which is going to happen.
There are TOO MANY state laws making felonies out of things that are permitted in other states, including exercise of clearly enumerated constitutional rights.
We need a nationwide law covering the right to BEAR arms, either nationwide concealed carry or mandatory reciprocity for state permits. Furthermore, the law should set uniform standards for restrictions based on tests of strict scrutiny.
I expect some flames from some “states rights” folks, but before you pull the trigger, ask yourself if a state could just unilaterally restrict women’s right to vote (19th amendment), or if Panera bread could exclude blacks (14th amendment). What we have now is a logically incoherent mess of state laws pertaining to the 2nd amendment.
This leads to Kafka-esque outcomes such as Shaneen Allen facing a mandatory 42 month sentence in New Jersey for exercising fundamental rights recognized in Pennsylvania.
He said he watched the game from a pub.
What pub?
Being that I live around Detroit I can tell you that all those “pubs”” are restaurants and there is absolutely no evidence that their primary source of income is liquor by the glass. Many of them sell Keno and tons of food.
http://taqodetroit.com
The chips were stale but the Carnitas were good. I suggested charro beans as a sub for re-fried beans would be an improvement.
Most of the sports bars in the area had closed their kitchens down so this was one of very few places open for dinner.
I did quite a bit of walking looking for a place to hang out and eat. The scalpers never got tired of trying to sell me tickets.
Jared, reread Sec 12a (1). It only says that you can carry as a non-resident if your licensed to carry in your state. It does not say that a non-resident is exempt from MI carry laws.
Tyler,
Laws say what you cannot do, not what you can do.
28.425o says what CERTAIN people can not do. MI CPL holders and people exempt as per 12a(1)(f) are bound by 28.425o.
A non resident carries under 12a(1)(h). Nothing in 425o says anything whatsoever about people carrying under this provision.
Sounds like a legal loophole. The laws in this country are full of them. It takes a good lawyer and sympathetic (or activist) judge to get a case dismissed on those grounds. I feel no shame whatsoever for not reading any laws…ever. There is what is right and what is legal. They often are not congruent.
Mike,
It was, the idiots couldn’t even write a gun control law properly. They never updated the subsection, that’s why 12a(1)(f) was never changed to 12a(1)(h).
TheProblem is that people don’t actually read laws they just say things like “the state police said this” or “follow the laws of the state”or something similar without actually citing what the penalty is.
For example,an Indiana resident who is 18 years old with a carry license, can carry in Michigan, yet a Michigan resident who is 18, 19, or 20 years old has no way to carry a concealed handgun.
That is another example of how a nonresident in Michigan has more rights than a Michigan resident.
A lot of people in Michigan are slow learners. It took them almost a decade to realize that you can carry a handgun into a school if it is not concealed, it took people even longer to realize that open carry was legal in general.
This is the only state where people had to start an open carry group to get people to understand this, because they could not take the time to actually read the laws.
Legislating rights away…..they weren’t rights if they can be legislated into oblivion, were they….
i know we hate the cops around here (sarc [kinda]), but in case you are ever in detroit:
city cops in detroit are in general extremely pro-carry by citizens. there is a station within 1/4 mile of comerica that would probably have been happy to stow your firearm for you while you were in your meeting/event.
I’ve never had an issue in detroit while either open carrying or ccw’ing. I live about ten miles outside of the city in the burbs. I’ve never met a police officer in the detroit metro that was anti-gun rights.
I walked around the stadium a couple times and never saw a cop. I saw two police cars parked. The paint was peeling off the hood of both cars. It is sad what has happened to that city.
12(a)1 is a SUBSECTION of the same law authorizing concealed carry by licensed individuals. Non-residents licensed by their home state are exempt from getting a license from MI to carry in MI. They have to follow the same laws as residents.
28.421a Concealed pistol licenses; issuance; creation of standardized system. Sec. 1a. It is the intent of the legislature to create a standardized system for issuing concealed pistol licenses to prevent criminals and other violent individuals from obtaining a license to carry a concealed pistol, to allow law abiding residents to obtain a license to carry a concealed pistol, and to prescribe the rights and responsibilities of individuals who have obtained a license to carry a concealed pistol. It is also the intent of the legislature to grant an applicant the right to know why his or her application for a concealed pistol license is denied and to create a process by which an applicant may appeal that denial.
28.422 License to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistol; issuance; qualifications; applications; sale of pistol; exemptions; nonresidents; forging application; implementation during business hours. Sec. 2. (1) Except as otherwise provided in this act, a person shall not purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol in this state without first having obtained a license for the pistol as prescribed in this section.
28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon or portable device that uses electromuscular disruption technology prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsections (1) and (2); violation; penalties.
Sec. 5o. (1) Subject to subsection (5), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:
(c) A sports arena or stadium.
(d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises.
28.432a Persons to whom requirements inapplicable; “local corrections officer” defined.
Sec. 12a. (1) The requirements of this act for obtaining a license to carry a concealed pistol do not apply to any of the following: (h) A resident of another state who is licensed by that state to carry a concealed pistol.
Tyler, show me under 28.425o how a non-resident can be charged under this law.
Show me exactly where in 425o he could be charged.
It specifically says MI CPL holders (people license under 28.425) and people who are specifically exempt under 12a(1)(f) are bound by 425o
Not everyone under all 12a. Just 12a(1)(f).
There is no law violated here.
Cite the EXACT law Mike was in violation of. I can tell you it doesn’t exist…. Yet.
28.425.o is not a separate law. It is a subsection. Everything from 28.421 to 28.435 is a part of the same law. Everyone licensed to carry is required to follow 28.425o. The only people exempted from these prohibitions are listed in 28.425o (2).
No one is authorized to carry under 12a1. It is a list of exemptions from getting a MI CPL.
28.425o doesn’t apply to everyone. It explicitly says who it applies to. Non residents aren’t “licensed” under this act, they are exempt from 750.227 via 750.231(a).
You are reading into the law what isn’t there. If non residents are licensed under 28.425, then what gun board issues non-residents licenses??? The answer is none.
If Indiana resident who is 18 with an IN LTC, how are they licensed in MI when they are under 21???? The answer is they aren’t licensed, they are simply exempt from 750.227 so there is no law to charge them with.
They can’t be licensed under 425 for the purposes of 425o but at the same time be exempt from being under 21 as per 425b.
The fallout from what you are saying would be severe. A WI resident with a CCL who was convicted of disorderly conduct a year ago can legally carry in MI where at the same time if he was an MI resident, he would be ineligible for a CPL.
So by your logic, this WI resident would be illegally carrying because he doesn’t meet 28.425b
When I can’t carry a gun I like to fill one of my pockets with some sand. Blasting a fool in the face with sand works perfectly to temporarily blind your attacker while you get away.
The law says that non- residents that are licensed by their home state do not have to apply for a CPL in Michigan. If an 18 yo from Indiana carries in Michigan, he would be fine. Your Wisconsin resident with a disorderly conduct charge would be fine as well, since he is licensed by his home state. They still have to follow the laws of Michigan once here.
Again, section 12a (1) only states that non – residents do not have to get a Michigan CPL to concealed carry if they are licensed by their home state. That’s it.
Exactly, the WI and IN resident would be ok, since they are not bound by 28.425 if they were bound by 425o, then they would be bound by 425b which would mean they were ILLEGALLY carrying.
12a only says they must follow any restriction places on their license.
Again, you are not showing me the penalty for them violating 28.425o or where that sections provided a penalty for non- residents, it doesn’t.
We need to see the law, not a catch all statement of “follow the licensing law”.
Unless you can show how a carrier 750.231a non resident is violating 28.425o, they you are giving out bad information as you are making it up, similar to how we used to hear you couldn’t OC in PFZ’s or OC in general.
I will no longer attend any live sporting event because of these league policies. I used to frequent Reds and Blue Jacket games, no more. I will watch from home from now on.
Please don’t say or write “dat” ever again. The last thing the US needs is for more illiteracy and ignorance to be perpetuated.
Because resisting tyranny will always be legal?
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