Most of us have seen the YouTube videos of “shooting instructors” doing questionable and dangerous things. What sane person would take a class with the guy who advocates running at his assailant while shooting? “Shoot you to the ground” I think he called it. Stupid is what those of us who watched the video call it. And even when you find an instructor whose philosophy you trust, it can sometimes seem as if they’re speaking a different language. So what are the qualifications of a shooting instructor? There’s actually two questions: what are the actual qualifications of the instructors and what should they be? Ideally, that Venn diagram would have 100 percent overlap, but the world is not a perfect place . . .
Different types of shooting means you need different qualifications to teach them. I wouldn’t go to a bench rest shooter to learn about room-clearing techniques. Does anyone think that the best instructor is a person who has no experience in what they are teaching?
On a gun blog to be named later, the issue of Jeff Cooper’s qualifications as an instructor came up. And when it did, a whole bunch of people started making some bold statements about them, while simultaneously attacking me for asking the question. Rather than providing Cooper’s qualifications, I kept getting asked who was a qualified instructor. I mentioned that Massad Ayoob seemed qualified. Better qualified than Jeff Cooper anyway. Well, that just opened the floodgates for people to start besmirching Mr. Ayoob’s reputation.
What is a reasonable person supposed to do when he hears two drastically incompatible versions of the truth? Compare the facts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW_xaTf5oqI
Massad Ayoob has made his c.v. public, and his qualifications are easy to find if you look for them. But where are Cooper’s qualifications? Did he ever compete in the courses he created, let alone in anyone else’s class? Did he win any marksmanship contests? Even the most staunch members of his cult of personality angrily try to change the subject when you ask these questions. Did Cooper keep his resume in the same safety-deposit box as Obama’s birth certificate?
Here is what is available:
- The Facts
Whole lot of white space in the left column. I asked repeatedly, but none of Cooper’s kool-aid imbibers would provide me with any information about their tin god’s qualifications. (And, there is the issue of whether I could decipher Cooper’s resume, given his tendency to pompously butcher the English language to sound learned). The offer still stands: provide me with documentation of Cooper’s qualifications, and I will post a correction and apology.
Would you enroll in a martial arts school where the sensei never competed or sparred? Do you think a celibate priest is the best source of marital advice? Bottom line: which of the two men in that chart is the person you want to teach you how to use your gun to defend yourself? To quote Bo Peep in Toy Story, I’ve found my moving buddy.
Linked it to my FB (with almost 1700 friends/followers), to a couple of pages I admin, and a couple more I don’t. Also linked it to my Twitter.
Obviously already posted the link for others to follow.
As of right now we outnumber them 2:1 or so on Thunderclap, let’s bury them. As in, absolutely bury them. Show them that we can beat them with boots on the ground or clicks on the net.
I, for one, do not accept that *any* state is lost. Some are pretty far gone, to be sure, but that is why we continue to support the cause, isn’t it? Are any of us free if one of us is not?
If Governor Lardo actually did this he might actually become President!
A couple of things about Ayoob: I like the fact that he “begins with the end in mind.” I think his emphasis on how one handles the “post-shoot” part of a self-defense situation is spot on and very realistic.
Full agreement about Cooper’s stilted language – I was never that crazy about his writings.
I actually disagree a bit about your description of Ayoob’s “plain language, presented logically.” Ayoob certainly is clear and logical, but he is incredibly articulate and a bit erudite, too, which (among other things) elevates him far above the “veteran street cop giving advice.”
JEFF COOPER IS A GREAT AMERICAN HERO! Massad Ayoob is a great instructor and Gabe (also a great instructor) is not INSANE.
Mediocre CZ75?
Aww. Don’t know about that…
I’m with you , John. That is a singular credibility killer. You know what they say: ‘Sigs are for people who don’t know about CZs.’
Further, the 1911 may not be ‘the perfect handgun’. It is, however, the most enduring, and when a design transcends a century, and is still very popular, one must certainly conclude that it has a lot going for it, even if it is not perfect.
Cooper’s pretty decent for some philosophical introspection on mindset but when it comes to advice on when to shoot and the aftermath I refer people to Ayoob.
Don’t know a whole lot about Jeff Cooper’s accomplishments, but Massad Ayoob’s many and varied skills and accomplishments are well known, and a source of petulant envy in some who cannot get beyond the superficiality of Cooper’s braggadocio. You can always identify an Ayoob article: articulate, even erudite, as pointed out earlier, well considered prose. The easiest job in the world must be that of his editor. Compare the editing (or lack of it) of other articles in, say, Combat Handguns. It appears to me that Ayoob delivers finished text requiring little or no editing, while many of the other articles read as if they never came near an editor, and are very much the worse for it.
Ayoob will never tell you to do something and when you ask “Why?”, say “Because I said so”. He will give you a list of reasons, studies, and practical experiences related to why he has come to the conclusion that he has. He is also more than happy to tell you about things he has changed his opinion on.
“which of the two men in that chart is the person you want to teach you how to use your gun to defend yourself?”
Neither one, for myself, nor would I suggest either for the great majority of ordinary people who just need to learn how to defend themselves in the real world.
Far too many competitions and big name “schools” are heavy on cop/military tactics and gear, cop/military mentality and methods. They concentrate far too much on the gun and gun handling, while shortchanging the mental and emotional adjustments and attitude that anyone needs to be effective. And that attitude has to be substantially different than what cops are taught.
In addition, not nearly enough emphasis is placed on regular and ongoing personal practice, both in gun handling and all the other aspects. Nothing can replace that for creating muscle memory out of class material, however well learned.
I’ve gone to some of the nationally offered schools, and found plenty of good instruction in the guns and gear department, but far too little in the other areas. All too often they are teaching cop, military and hardware, not truly self defense. I especially discourage women from spending their time and money on these schools, unless they happen to LIKE playing aggressive cop and soldier.
I’ve already had to shoot a man to save my life. I know what it takes.
I agree with Mama Liberty.
I don’t know why people like putting down Jeff Cooper. He is a true american hero and he proved it many times. Now both these men are good instructors with different styles and I would have liked to learn from them both.
Telling the truth about Jeff Cooper is not putting Jeff Cooper down.
And, can you give us any examples of Cooper’s alleged “heroics”?
(For the record, this post appears in a slightly different form, with altered text, on my own site.)
Mama, it is obvious that you did not bother to look at Ayoob’s classroom curricula before passing judgment:
http://massadayoobgroup.com/?page_id=7
No military or police tactics/mentality there. Not even close. So, I don’t think that the readers of TTAG are well-served by your exhortation that they not take one of Ayoob’s classes (which clearly do not fall into the category that you describe).
But, I am very interested in hearing about which schools you did attend. Also, the process you used to decide upon them. Help the readers avoid the mentality you describe when they are selecting a class.
A couple of years ago, Gunnutmegger and I went to a talk Mr. Ayoob gave in support of the beleaguered Blue Trail Range in Wallingford, CT. It was a standing-room-only crowd (I should know, I was shoved up against the back wall for the whole thing…). Mr. Ayoob’s talk was on just the topics that Mama Liberty complained that she hasn’t seen from instructors. This was not a “cop attitude” type discussion, but one that focused on important things that those of us who carry need to keep in mind. He offered practical advice on what to do in the aftermath of a defensive shooting. He advised avoiding heavily modifying their weapons, or using reloads in your every day carry (A prosecutor could use these against, as in “his gun had a hair trigger…” or “he was using super powerful bullets…”).
All in all, the talk was a couple of hours long, I honestly don’t remember everything, but I do remember that he spoke in a plain, entertaining, informative and understandable manner. After the talk, he stuck around for a long time, talking individually with the folks who came out in support of Blue Trail Range. I have never taken one of his classes, but I would be happy to do so when he offers one locally. He’s a nice guy, and a great ambassador for our interest.
To be honest, I have never paid much attention to Jeff Cooper, so I can’t offer an opinion about him. I think the guy was a pioneer, offering structure and instruction to a subject we all care about, but I don’t put anybody on a pedestal.
Cooper won the Outstanding American Handgunner award in 1995, before Ayoob won in ’98.
Good to know.
Did Cooper ever win any shooting competitions?
Ayoob, in discussing Cooper in 2006, referred to two combat engagements that Ayoob was aware of in the Pacific theater and one in Southeast Asia in the intelligence service in the 1950’s in which Cooper fought and killed opponents in active armed engagements using a handgun. = military service + heroics + winning real life or death “competitions”
As to source of training for Cooper: He assembled the best in the field to both receive and develop training starting in 1956 at the Leatherslap events, and used what was learned to develop IPSC and earlier practical competitions in California, which would not be available for anyone to “win” without Cooper’s efforts.
He, and fellow Gunsite instructors (Louis Awerbuck, Ken Hackathorn, Greg Morrison, Russ Showers, Clint Smith, Chuck Taylor, Ed Stock) assembled and cataloged a large portion of the techniques taught at nearly every reputable firearms school to this day; and despite being a surly old grouch who bitched that my hair was too long, gave credit to people like Weaver and others he took techniques from.
No, Cooper did not invent the wheel. He did, however, compile a whole bunch of data about the wheel, and why it should be round and not square… or to remove ourselves from wheel metaphors, why it is important to do more than just square range bullseye work. He continued the conversation started by George Silver in the 1600s with swords, and Fairbairn and others with firearms in the 20th century, and others are continuing it today.
To ask what competitions a teacher has won is missing the point. How does Angelo Dundee’s lack of a fight record indicate that he was not successful in training Mohammad Ali, and 15 other champions? Cooper is best known as a compiler of history and practical information, and a teacher of the same.
I like what I know of Ayoob, and would never seek to discredit him. He seems like a smart guy, although I do not know him personally. He knew Cooper personally, and had a high opinion of him. I knew Cooper personally, and have a similar opinion of the man. The fact that the curriculum of Gunsite has changed and evolved over the decades shows that the “Modern Technique” has been continually modernized over the years, just as the current thinking of Ayoob is not identical to his first writing. Everyone has room to improve.
A straw man graph not including Cooper’s training that he orchestrated and created out of necessity, and yet including a ton of schools and shooting events on Ayoob’s side of the graph that didn’t even exist when Cooper began his work in the field, and owe their existence to the groundwork set down by Cooper is clearly biased. It is akin to asking why Ghengis Kahn didn’t go to West Point, or why Ali a his advanced age and condition doesn’t fight in the UFC. Cooper was done competing in the 1960’s, and was 54 years old by the time IPSC was even founded. A guy who has been dead for 5 years and would be 91 if he were alive today has every right to have been out of the competition circuit for decades.
Neither was 40 second Boyd an ace much less a combat pilot. Cooper lived by his accomplishments, not his history record. Know people who served with him. Their word is good, his track record speaks for it self.
As for Ayoob, his defense of the New Mexico uniformed rapists ended his credibility for me forever.
Gunnutmegger, I have obviously not read everything on the subject, nor have I been to every “school” in the country. All I can share is my general impression and experience. I have read Aoob’s articles many times, especially those at Backwoods Home. He comes across as an arrogant cop, and his cop background is the qualification that is endlessly promoted.
If some schools are teaching real self defense to ordinary people, without the aggressive crap, then that’s wonderful. I’ve just not seen very many. One of the exceptions is, of course, the NRA training available. It isn’t world class, but it is what most people can afford and gain access to. I am an NRA certified instructor.
American Firearms Training and Tactical http://www.aftt.org/ is another excellent school that takes training TO the average person at a cost they can afford. I’m a graduate of their handgun classes.
Another is Tactical Shooting academy, run by D.R. Middlebrooks. I have yet to attend that school, but it is on my short list. http://www.tacticalshooting.com/
And even so, there is a lot of “cop” stuff in their curriculum and classes.
Each person needs to decide what is right for them, by their own criteria. I’m not trying to speak for anyone but myself. But I do have a right to express that opinion. Nobody would be more delighted than me if I were completely wrong.
Mama, did you read the course descriptions at LFI and Ayoob group?
The classes Ayoob created are specifically geared for training civilians how and when to use a gun to protect themselves. Not bogus “tactical” tomfoolery. And I am not sure where you got the “arrogant cop” attitude from.
I looked at the TacticalShooting website and, I have to say that when I see things like “Find out why Fist-Fire is being called “THE Martial Art” of Combat Handgunning. That’s why it’s being endorsed by leading MMA experts and why it’s being called “THE Martial Art of Handgunning”” my mall-ninja detector goes to DEFCON-1. But, hey, it’s your money…
“I am an NRA certified instructor.”
That explains a lot about your messed up mindset.
I believe that the majority of armed citizens aren’t going to be involved in shootouts with criminals nor are they going to involve themselves in stopping crimes unless personally threatened. The armed citizen should learn how to draw, fire, and hit what they’re aiming at. Instructors should have two courses, one for law enforcement and one for armed citizens. Most police officers never experience a criminal trying to rob them or car jack them. Citizens experience this every day. As far as who is the best instructor, I would have to say the person who has the experience and the knowledge to teach both courses.
Most cops will never be involved in shootouts with criminals nor are they going to involve themselves in stopping crimes. They just show up after the crime to take measurements and harass witnesses.
I’ll have to remember the next time I save some vic’s life and put down their attacker. Next, time, I’ll just wait outside until the incident is over, let the assailant go, then stop and take measurements.
I thought I would just put this out there, Massad Ayoob has acknowledged that he has been a student of Jeff Cooper, and many of the other greats in the firearm world.
Why don’t you ask Mas yourself what he thinks of Jeff Cooper, he has the utmost respect and admiration for Mr. Cooper. Jeff Coppers’ philosophy on firearm handling and the mindset required to live through a gun battle, your State of Awareness is one of the first fundamental lessons taught by Cooper and it alone could save your life.
GOTURBACK
Cooper made some valuable contributions to the shooting world. I haven’t denied that. The Color Codes, the 4 Rules, popularizing training in general; all good things Cooper did.
But Cooper’s experience was all theoretical; he was never at risk when using a gun, except from an accident. And he didn’t explore other training philosophies and improve his teachings over time.
Contrast that with Ayoob, who explores other trainers & ideas, and incorporates plenty of proven information from people who have solid real-world credentials.
The fact that Ayoob is a polite guy and part of the “gun community” should not be misinterpreted as an endorsement of Cooper’s image as an infallible last word in training.
Cop’s have real-world credentials? Are you kidding me? Most of them get shot with their own guns and if not they unload ninety rounds to hit an unarmed suspect twice. Take a look at the video of the Kehoe brothers being stopped. They tried to cover all the misses by saying they were hits but kehoe was wearing a bullet proof vest. What a crock.
Most cops are trained with Cooper-style techniques. No wonder they can’t hit anything when they are under pressure.
Get your google on and type “Jim Cirillo”. And while you’re at it, give “W. E. Fairbairn” and “Rex Applegate” a look too.
Or…hmm, let’s try a different approach. Why don’t you tell all of us who IS credible?
There are bad teachers out there that are just in it for the money. My approach is to listen to everything I can and train with what feels best to me. I would give more credibility to the experience of those that are not professionals but have been faced by home invasion, car jacking or other violent crimes. We all act differently under pressure an nobody really knows how they will respond. The more information and training that we have will make it more likely that we will survive an encounter. This “Who’s Better” nonsense is more childish than productive.
Cooper’s kool-aid imbibers would provide me with any information about their tin god’s
If somebody were to refer to me that way I would be so angry I would stop listening to anything they were saying and verbally attack them.
Ok.
When you’re done, please feel free to send me any information you have about Cooper’s qualifications & accomplishments.
If you took the worst articles from gun magazines and took the best posts from huffingtonpost.com you would end up with thetruthaboutguns.com. Kind of the mom’s basement of the gun world.
What if you took the worst articles from the Huffington Post and the best articles from the gun mags? What would you have then?
Shooting USA
It appears you are wrong about Cooper not having any combat experience:
Read Paul Kirchner’s “More of the Deadliest Men who ever lived”. He has a whole Chapter on Cooper, and reports that Cooper did in fact have a few lethal encounters.
The book is available from Paladin Press
I remember reading a list of Mr Cooper’s competitive awards in a book published in the 1960s or 1970s. His competitive time was in the 1950s and early 60s if I remember right. His combat experience was mentioned as well but he was using an issued rifle not the 1911. I will post the book if I can find it.
Cooper’s competitive shooting skill is mentioned generically in Wikipedia in the Modern Technique of the Pistol under the Combat Masters subsection. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Technique_of_the_Pistol
Re: Cooper’s real life shooting experience Amazon.com mentions 3 generically in a blurb for the book mentioned above.
http://www.amazon.com/More-Deadliest-Men-Ever-Lived/dp/1581606907
“Jeff Cooper. The founder of the modern technique of the pistol and a personal friend of the author. Several years before his death I interviewed him about the three shootings in which he was involved. “
Cooper – 3 Combat Shootings
Ayoob – 0 Combat Shootings
I will take Cooper any day………………
Logic is cool, you might want to investigate it. I know you might get great SEO out of tearing down a famous person and building up someone else, but here is an easy logical exercise: A rapist with Down’s Syndrome says that ice Cream is served cold, and a Harvard professor that sidelines as a priest says it is usually served warm. What is important, the speaker or the fact? 10 points if you can name the logical fallacy this article is based upon.
A suggestion, if you choose not to focus on shooting instruction, and positively helping others enjoy and improve in this awesome activity… at least attack ideas and not people. Jeff Cooper& Massad Ayood & Gabe Suarez and Clint Smith and Shepard Humphries and Tony Copper & other “Top 10 Shooting Instructors” have weaknesses and strengths. Some may smoke too much, some have avoided fights, some have sought fights and some may be passionate about something different than you, but to focus on tearing down a legend who is not even in competition with you for a personal email from Massad? Come on!
Qualifications should be open and honest. I can honestly say that I provided counter-sniper operations for the Vice President of the United States. In reality, I froze my butt off on the roof of an airport building… does this “experience” qualify” me to share my knowledge with others if I am a bitter short man that really, really wants to be friends with a shooting instructor that is still alive? Heck no!
Think about it, do you want a great teacher that can’t fight to teach you or a great warrior that cant teach to teach you? Do you want a great teacher that cant fight to fight your war or a great warrior that cant teach to fight your war? Massad is an incredible instructor and deserves his place on the Top 10 list. So does Cooper.
If a person without any combat, law enforcement, military, mafia or other martial experience is really good at teaching me how to shoot – I will hire them. Jeff and Massad rock!
finally, some common sense.
Each of these men have made significant contributions to students of the gun. One of them actually made his living, going in harm’s way with a gun in his hands. One of them survived three times because he kept his head and and answered imminent harm with precisely-directed fire. One of those occasions was a flat-out sub-machinegun ambush of the vehicle he was riding in.
Cooper wasn’t hand holder, he scoffed at PTSD and he didn’t suffer fools gladly. He was however responsible for great improvements in the serious application of the handgun. What he lacked in training skills he more than made up for in choosing an excellent cadre of instructors.
I have to chuckle when I see the New Order kicking the headstones of people like Askins, Cooper and Skelton.
‘The Truth About Guns’, huh? How fortunate of us to be availed of it.
It’s funny – one person is shot (the TSA worker) and it is all over the news. Meanwhile, about 2-3 miles away young black men are shot nightly. Those shootings never make the national news.
I started Reading Jeff’s work in the early 60’s, I began written correspondence with him in 1970, met him in 1976 when we set up the IPSC. I know many others who had known him well. Jeff himself said that one of his 3 handgun kills was really just an ambush of a man who had no idea that Jeff was anywhere around, but the Japanese man had an automatic rifle and was moving in a way certain to bump into Jeff’s (clandestine) group, so Jeff just aimed carefully and shot him. Strangely enough, Jeff started WW2 using a Colt SA revolver, based upon “advice” by elmer Keith, who had no combat experience at ALL, never pointed a gun at a man, nor had one pointed at him (by his own written admission).
I”d certainly prefer that anyone I cared about take their classes from Ayoob, by the way. Jeff had some things to teach us, but mostly he was a storyteller, hearing from lots of people all over the world, for 50 years or so, in his capacity as head of GUNSITE training, as shooting editor of Guns and Ammo magazine, as head of IPSC for several years, as head of the Southwest pistol league for many years, as a well-received author of interesting books.
Ayoob covers far more territory, and to much greater depth. If you see him, ask him if he’s melted any Micros lately. 🙂 he’ll know it came from me. 🙂
Ayoob has known for a long time that mostly you don’t have to fire, that misses often suffice, that speed is of the essence, that the range is almost always MUCH closer than the 10 yds range, at which Jeff had you do most everything.
I corresponded with Jeff for about 10 years. I was at the Columbia Conference in 1976, the 77, 78, 80 US IPSC nati’s and the 77 and 79 IPSC world shoots in Africa. So I learned quite a bit about the Man. Jeff was not all that fast on the draw, but he was very accurate, especially from prone. He could routinely deliver 3″ groups from rollover prone at 50 yds. Jeff was fos about the scout rifle. When GGG came out, he invited criticism. I sent him 140 of my handwritten pages, using nothing but his own words in contradiction. 🙂
Many a top coach in sports was nothing much as a player. The Weaver stance has been well proven to be inferior to the modern Isosoles. Search youtube for Jerry Miculek’s vids. Jerry’s never shot anyone, or even pointed a gun at anyone. Neither had Elmer keith, by the way. I”ve pointed guns at people 8x in my life. Every time, all of them fled the scene, at top speed. I fired twice, over their heads, to give them impetus. This was back in the 60s. Today, given cell phones, I’d have been locked away forever.
I’ve met Mas Ayoob a few times, and have read his work. He’s a very reliably coherent, aware man, and nowadays he can really shoot. Back when I knew him, in the late 70s, he was just a C class competitor.
I find it odd that you praise Ayoob and damn the 1911. He likes the 1911 too. There’s one with his name on it from Ed Brown made to his specifications. I have a very similar model. Yes, he shoots other weapons. A lot of shooters do, but I’ve seen him many times with a 1911 in hand.
Massad says he has been a cop for 35 years. Flat out lie. He has been a citizen volunteer in a small department with only 3 officers. CALL THEM & CHECK!
I lived in NH for 15 years ,there are not many towns in NH that are big enough to require more than a few policemen,still can be a good cop.I once read of a shrimp sized guy that that was literally born in a cotton patch.somehow became the most decorated solider in WW2.I really rambered on this one , sorry
I’ll vouch for the long comments by Mickey and Jim H. I’ve studied under both men.
Cooper’s qualifications are that he “been there done that” multiple times in the military and lived thru numerous lethal (too others) encounters. Yes, he has won competitions. More so, he CREATED major competitions – as a tool for learning about the subject, and to train others. He started and ran Gunsite, long noted for top notch training. He IS Jeff Cooper – and yes that is suitable qualification, akin to “resume? He’s Albert Einstein! Yes he knows something about physics!”
Ayoob hadn’t killed anyone, but he has studied the realm of armed self defense in great detail and is a master of aggregating and presenting that information.
Don’t disparage either. Per the adage, “they’ve forgotten more about the subject than you can ever hope to learn”. Belittling Cooper in particular belies gross ignorance.
Jeff Cooper was a snob who really believed in himself. He didn’t need anyone else as a fan. Mas Ayoob is a fine man with a terrific pedigree. I have communicated with him and he is very humble and down to earth.
Pretty despicable to ignore the well-documented combat experience Jeff Cooper had, as well as the well documented accomplishments as a competitive shooter of Col. Cooper. I have no doubt this was done on purpose – one would have to be moronic or not have access to the internet to be prevented from researching and knowing of Cooper’s past experiences. And it’s ironic that if asked, Massad Ayoob himself would find this “comparison” to be very troubling. Though current techniques have branched out a bit in recent times, they all trace their way back to Cooper’s “Modern Technique of the Pistol”. He literally wrote the book(s).
Well Yankee Gunnuts, I don’t blame you for leaving your name off of that steaming turd. Talk about getting your ass handed to you…
Some people are just so full of self-loathing they have to pass it around to others.
You are clueless about firearms too. Get a new racket.
Why bother going the legal route? Unlike on TV, spent shell casings don’t hold prints in real life. If you waste some dirt bag no one will miss anyway just waste him and roll.