My mind is a font of useless information. Alexander Graham Bell recommended that people using his newfangled telephonic device answer an incoming a call by saying “Ahoy-hoy” (as Mr. Burns does in The Simpsons). And end all conversations by pronouncing “that is all.” And now I know how to shoot a SIG SAUER MCX (with a forend grip) at a bad guy from behind a tire. Given my flexibility, contorting like that would probably kill me anyway. That is all.

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61 COMMENTS

  1. I wonder what Jeff Cooper or Massad Ayoob would say about that! I hope to never be in a position where I have to use that position! ?

  2. Except its a no go in the real world. The vehicle is at least 5 Feet wide. You have to put the gun on the ground otherwise your rounds will strike the undercarriage.
    And yes, I’ve actually done this in real combat. With the gun on the ground, it works great. Just your hand under the foregrip is enough to clear the brass from the ejection port.

    • Dare we hope for a reply video? I’d kinda like to see how that would work. Seems like the shells wouldn’t clear the bolt, or would bounce back up for a malf.

        • Nah, you’re half-way to your own YouTube channel already, and nobody wants to see a schmuck like me guessing his way through gunplay.
          Do it.
          DO IT!!

          Now if you want a lawyer’s view of stupid ca gun law, I might consider it….

    • Obviously this technique is designed for rednecks crouching behind their jacked-up pickup trucks.

      • You actually have a point. Vehicle height’s going to make a huge difference. My experience is with up-armored HMMWVs.

    • I agree about the width of the vehicle being a general problem. You’re gonna have to have targets at a pretty good range before you won’t be aiming at/hitting the vehicle unless you’re going for knee shots.

      The other problem here is what he’s trying to hide behind. Generally if you’re engaging targets with a rifle the targets have rifles too. Now he’s trying to get all snuggley with the wheel rather than the tire. Um… most rifle rounds will penetrate that rim and hurt you and the vast, vast majority of people can’t hide behind just the wheel but rather a good chunk of them is merely concealed by the tire which rifle bullets surely penetrate for most makes/models of cars (since 9mm JHP’s go right through most tires no matter what part of the tire you shoot). Even further, his idea is a great way ensure to take any spall to the face, arm and neck in a way that creates decent wound and you pretty well completely drop out of cover when you react to it.

      Use the block of the engine or failing that, lie down with your strong side on the ground and the rifle to your strong shoulder. Resting it on your hand, as you said, is a good idea.

      • Rim, yes. All of the other stuff in between the shooter and you, not likely. Forward facing wheel, brake, axle, other brake, wheel. Even a 50 would deflect from that.

    • Agree with you completely. We trained on this technique when I was doing PSD work in Iraq using a couple of old, worn out Suburbans out in the desert near FOB Summerhays (K2). The way the guy in the vid is holding the rifle, he would be putting the rounds up into the center of the floor, not down range. The goal is to hit the bad guys in the lower legs or ankles, and then finish them when they fall to the ground. A single piece of plywood is not the same thing as an actual vehicle., This takes quite a bit of practice to get right.

  3. That’s nothing, I like to shoot in a handstand position, like one of dem dare skunks. Really adds some style and psych out.

  6. I practice real world shooting positions. Like the one handed LazyBoy shot. Or the pants around your ankle toilet squat shot.

    You know. positions that us non operators might actually encounter in the world.

      • Try pulling a j frame from your pocket holster while your pants is piled up around your feet.

        I’m not even going into the “holdup, it’s Saturday afternoon and some moron tweaker just broke in while I was making the beast with 2 backs with my wife” shooting position. And no, you don’t want to see that video. We’re old people. But on the plus side, neither one of us has tats.

    • Its called marketing. Not 4000 PD in the US need to hire them for field training. Demo for Barney how this is done behind the squad, after eating 5000 donuts, while wearing a vest.

  11. I love when people find a training technique and think it’s amazing, but it’s extremely specific. How many of us would ever be doing that crap?

    Also, as far as holding off for your zero with your gun tilted, it’s negligible for rounds going that fast. Gravity is taken into account, if you’re shooting that close, you’re still going to hit where you’re aiming. I’ve shot 200yd at a steel plate with my rifle bench rested sideways. Hit a 6×6 steel plate repeatedly. The bullet is out-running gravity from your 50yd zero by a huge margin.

      • I’m assuming he means travelling forward faster than it is traveling downward. The actual speed of gravity is equal to the speed of light.

    • Not true at all, especially at 100 meters and beyond. I’ve made consistent hits at a 300 meter target utilizing a similar technique but I was aiming off of the target over a shoulder to compensate for the different trajectory.

  12. And now we know how the guy in the Daily Digest (next page) wound up with a rifle bolt up his @ss.

    • If you’re high speed, low drag enough to use this position the guy “sneaking” up behind you is walking into your trap because your operationally operating all over that AO.

  14. I think he jumped the shark tank…..that is one of the dumbest operator operating operationally BS videos I have ever seen

  18. I wonder if any of the commenters know who Mr. Palmer is, have taken a class with him, or researched his background?

    • Kind of irrelevant, I don’t think anyone is bashing him completely, just this semi ridiculous position he is recommending.

      Training is a lucrative business. Consequently, trainers who want to stand out have to find something to set themselves apart from the rest, and often that comes in an unusual or unorthodox method (see: full blown Costa-brah overly exaggerated c-clamp)

    • This ^.

      Assume forward-facing prone, rifle mounted, several feet behind wheel. Tuck-in the elbow, lean/roll to the strong side until rifle almost touches ground, engage target(s), roll back behind cover/concealment to reload or manipulate.

      Yeah, I know; the farther back you are from the wheel, the less cover there will be from multiple targets that are offset horizontally.

    • I can get in and out of it (minus the leg brace thing that I think ruins it all) faster than I can the prone. It provides much more cover than the prone, especially from blast and spall, such as from full auto impacts to the vehicle and the ground as well as RPG fire.

  23. This is a modification of a position taught in elite military circles jokingly referred to as the ‘broke back’ position (Broke Back Mountain) for the ass in the air positioning. This is the first time I’ve seen it canted this way to ‘utilize more cover’ behind the tire. The way I’ve seen it taught, and taught it, is more bent straight over, with rifle closer to the ground and utilizing the too of the head to stabilize. As previously mentioned, a hands width is enough to clear the ejecting brass, and you need to get the weapon that low to clear the width of whatever your utilizing as cover. These are battle tested techniques folks, and can be used in full battle rattle. It looks goofy as hell, but it works. Don’t be afraid to add tools to your kit bag.

    • It looks like his polo-shirted chest is touching his thighs (vid time 2:15-2:25); I don’t see how it would be possible to assume this position “…in full battle rattle.” with a chest full of mag pouches or a thick plate-carrier/MOLLE vest padding your front.

      Watching his muzzle, it appears as though his shots are barely clearing the barricade gap as it is (with the upward angle needed); add a helmet into the mix, and raising the carbine to match the added height, and his shot WOULDN’T be clearing the wood/obstacle.

        • I guess I’ll have to try it myself.

          Assuming I can ever find a range bay with no strangers nearby, and I can collect all the cell phones and cameras from my associates and lock them in the vehicle for the duration…

      • The way he is doing it won’t work in kit, I agree. When I have taught this technique, it is with both knees down, hunched over my weapon, behind the tire/vtac barricade. Head/helmet on the ground for stability, you place your support hand palm down and lock the weapon around/into your wrist with the magazine well. That one hand width is enough to clear the ejected rounds, though I have had rounds bounce up into the cuff of my uniform. That sucks.

        I’ve done this and taught low drag low profile Privates in the infantry how to do it, starting slick then progressing to full kit. Like I said, its a tool in the kit bag. And if you are by yourself, with no not watching your back, you’re already in a shot position. But if you are at range, 100-200 meters, seeking cover with your buddies in a kill zone and trying to return fire with minimum exposure, it’s a valise technique to have in your kit bag.

        • Thanks for the additional comments, MadMedic; much appreciated (you too, jwtaylor).

          I have the additional “advantage” of shooting wrong-handed, so case ejection/rebound against the ground while shooting strong-handed usually isn’t a problem for me. I’ll try it righty, too, so I’ll know the limitations for everyone.

      • 100% correct, This guy would be putting rounds into the underside of the vehicle if he were trying to do this for real. I always get a kick out of these internet experts who have never actually done the things they are supposedly training people to do.

        Iraq 2004 -2007.

  24. Gotta be an epic troll by Sig Sauer. This technique is slow to enter, slow to exit, and substantially reduces situational awareness.

    • In my actual combat experience using this a position very similar to this it is the opposite of all of those things.

  25. Sorry folks, but if you look at the angle of the muzzle as he shoots, you can see that had he actually been shooting under a vehicle the rounds would have been impacting against the undercarriage of the vehicle before they ever exited out and went on toward the target. When I was doing PSD work in Iraq we used to practice this using old Suburbans that had reached the end of their useful life cycle, and in practice you have to ensure you have a very flat muzzle trajectory in order for the rounds to actually clear the understudy of the vehicle.

    Plywood mock-ups are one thing, but the real deal can be very different. If you ever have to use this technique, your goal is to shoot the other guy’s ankles out for under him so that he falls to the ground, and then put a couple of rounds into his body.

  26. More cringeworthy and overused blog statement. “I’m just going to leave this here” or “just saying”?

    • “Just sayin'” is still in the lead, but the challenger is gaining rapidly.
      “I share your pain” at their repeated use.
      Ain’t nobody got time for that.
      Word.

      🙂

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