Stephanie Hayden (courtesy nextguide.tv)

“Dr. Phil sits down with Stephanie Hayden, daughter of Will Hayden (“Sons of Guns”), who has been accused of raping a 12-year-old girl,” the official episode guide informs. The heart-to-heart’s scheduled for this Thursday (check local stations for times). Those of you following this sordid story will note that the description does not include Stephanie’s latest allegation: that Will Hayden raped her. No doubt that will come up in conversation. Will Dr. Phil ask if Will Hayden ever used a gun to threaten Stephanie or anyone else? I’m sure of it. If Stephanie says yes, well, I’m with Dan. This entire scandal does nothing to bolster the image of lawful, law-abiding, upstanding gun owners and much to degrade them. It’s ammo for the antis. Add a gun threat and it’s gonna blow up big. Don’t get me wrong: guilt by association isn’t right and it isn’t legal. But it’s how people think, if you want to call it that.

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76 COMMENTS

      • Yeah, same deal here. This whole thing just gets worse and worse.

        If he’s guilty, well… you know, it’s so bad it’s almost unspeakable. Total atrocity.

        If he’s innocent, well… It’s almost as bad, that both of your daughters would say that you raped them. To falsely bear witness about such an act would be horrendous.

        Either way, this is really ugly.

        • If he’s innocent then HE is the one who got raped – and it’s a good bet nobody’s going to jail for it.

  3. It makes me sad everyday, which I realize more and more, that the people of this nation are completely unaware that one of the founding principles of this nation was to escape the culture of guilt by association which existed in England.
    As sad or disturbing as this story is, it really shouldn’t be a gun story. I won’t be watching.

    • +1

      I may have to turn off the internet for a while. Already got rid of cable news.

      So tired of the attention whores and the perpetually aggrieved.

    • Yep…this definitely makes me think it’s about money and not truth/justice. I saw my first part of a dr Phil episode while waiting at a car dealership Saturday…wanted to punch the tv, dr phil, the people on the show, and the person who had created the show within a couple minutes.

  5. I don’t believe the whole lot of them. Attention whores now. Gotta make a living somehow since the show got bumped.

    • Agreed.

      If there is an on-going felony investigation and she is party to it (as a victim), she should not be talking to the press – for a whole host of reasons.

      Tainted jury pool, anyone?

      • +1 – If these allegations are all true, then Stephanie did nothing to protect her baby half-sister from the abuse. She likely even helped cover it up. Now she’s going to publicly receive victim’s support. What about her role in the younger child’s abuse? And her role in her father’s prosecution?

        Why can’t she just attend private counseling sessions? Why does this all have to be done Live on TV?

        Something is rotten in the state of Denmark, indeed.

    • I always thought she was a cutie.

      I’ve seen cuter, but the fact that she’s a gun lover gives her a couple more points, IMHO 🙂

      Yeah, the AK’s are fun, too, but LEGO Blue isn’t my cup of tea.

    • He hasn’t been found guilty of anything yet and you’re calling him a sick bastard… People like you are scary.

  8. What does this have to do with perceptions of gun ownership? Has anyone in this sordid tale fired gun in anger? In a sad, twisted way, it erodes the perception that owning guns or liking guns automatically leads to domestic gun use.

    Finally, Dr. Phil is not a board certified therapist, so his TV show is little more than voyeuristic theater.

      • Thanks. I was making corrections the same time you replied. 🙂

        EDIT: Apparently unsuccessful corrections. Don’t post while working, folks. 🙂

    • What does this have to do with perception? How about the fact that many gun owners are stereotyped as inbred rednecks?

    • if there where not so many guns in the us my be a lot more people would not be shot .i know at home here in Ireland .its very difficult to get hold off any sort of weapon which makes me feel safe to walk the street .

      • Oh sure, no guns in British Isles makes you safer, say against crazed knife wielding jihadis, gangs of football hooligans…

      • And if your country ever gets invaded your entire population will be 100% helpless. I argue that if more law abiding folks carried weapons crime would go way down. A criminal would think twice about mugging or raping someone,or breaking into someone’s house at night if they knew that chances are the person was armed and able to defend themselves. Excessively strict gun laws do nothing to prevent criminals from doing what they do,as criminals don’t abide by the law.

    • They can try to spin it all they like, but the fact remains that if he is found guilty, he is by default not a law abiding gun owner.

      • YES that fact remains. The laws on the books would DISALLOW him as a felon to possess firearms. We do not need more laws.
        It is absolutely idiotic to say this mans actions reflect on all gun owners. Its right up there with saying every black person is a thug because SOME morons are running around “playing” the knockout game. Pure garbage.

  9. Sure is looking like Hayden is a piece of shit. No, it has nothing to do with law abiding gun owners, even if a gun was used. A crime, is a crime, is a crime. No matter how it is committed. Of course we all know it’s about the spin, not the real story. If they can paint us as inbred hillbillies in the press, they will.

    • I won’t comment on who is guilty of what, but I am sure I’m glad I’m not a part of that family. Makes my own somewhat disfunctional family look SOOOO much better than what I thought of when I was growing up. I didn’t know how good I had it.

  10. Well, maybe we will get the full story. I just hope they manage to keep the questions free of political banter.

  11. The penalty for raping a 12 year old in the state of Louisiana is life without parole and hard labor.

    I hope justice is swift

    • After a fair trial, you mean, right? That’s one of those things where accused citizens have the enumerated right to face their accusers and have their fate decided by a jury of their peers.

      Or, is it just after the appearance on Dr. Phil? If he’s guilty in the court of public opinion is good enough?

      I’m not defending this guy specifically; I have no idea what the facts of this case are. I am disgusted by the willingness our culture has to “accuse, try and convict” people in the pop press.

      Kevin Clash is another good example, and there are many, many others. The press should just report facts. “X was arrested for Y. Trial date set for Z.”

    • If he’s guilty and convicted, I hope his justice is slow.

      Hard labor in the daytime, and what awaits him in the cellblock at night.

      I wonder how long he will last before he offs himself.

    • IF he is guilty. People are too quick to judge. Are that many people really so ill-willed to hope for someones guilt. Because that’s what it seems like. People don’t even know the story yet,but seem to WANT him to be guilty….That in itself is sick.

  12. I always thought the the guy was a class A douchenozzle. I could not stand to watch the show, just because of all his posturing and egomaniacal bull. He seemed like the kind of a guy who was just a jerk, always.

    Turns out, I was right. Of course, the fanboys are still going on about ‘what happened to innocent until proven guilty’ but there is what we call a “Common Sense” test and if both of your daughters are accusing you of raping them, and one is fully grown, then Res Ipsa Loquitur, as Hunter Thompson was fond of saying.

    “The thing speaks for itself.”

    • “‘what happened to innocent until proven guilty’”

      Because the full concept is “innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.”

      We have rules of evidence and legal procedure for a reason. It’s called “Due Process.”

      I don’t harp on this because I am a fanboy of this guy…I have never seen the show. So, let’s get that out of the way.

      This is one of those things that comes under the general heading, “I support the Second Amendment, but…” Different rules for different groups, like gun rights for some but not for others?

      Are you saying legal process and the 5th, 6th and 14th Amendments don’t apply due the nature of the accusation and who is doing the accusing?

      He may well be guilty, but whether he is or not, as a citizen of this republic, he deserves his day in court, not to be accused, tried and convicted on the freaking Dr. Phil Show.

      • Wait, now, there were no air conditioned courtrooms when that was written, so now common sense restrictions must be applied to that right, and besides, no one needs a trial by a jury of his peers in order to hunt, and 87.6% of Americans believe he should hang.. Did I miss any?

    • Wrong, Rea Ispa, would not apply here. If you are going to try to toss out legal jargon at least use it in the proper concept. If he is guilty he is guilty, but since you want to try and use legal terms how about the good old innocent until proven guilty? He doesn’t have to prove his innocence jack ass, the state has to prove his guilt and being accused of a crime doesn’t prove guilt, even if it is 2 family members doing the accusing. Why is it that a grown ass woman waited all these years to accuse her dad of such a horrendous act and worked with him on a daily basis? $$$ grab!

      • I personally know 3 different adults that waited until they were adults to say anything. They were not collecting $$$$ when they spoke up. I didn’t speak up until I was an adult either. U don’t know why they wait if u haven’t had to experience the shame of it yourself. So don’t judge

    • Yet she worked at her father’s business,and everything was completely fine until the show was tanking and she lost her time in the spotlight. The fact that she is choosing to go on national television and talk about it on Dr. Phil tells me she is looking for the spotlight again. You are way too quick to judge. Just because he is a “douchenozzle” doesn’t mean that his daughters aren’t money hungry attention whores. Either could be true. Better not to pass judgment prematurely.

  14. Dr. Phil is like an equal-opportunity Al Sharpton when it comes to profiting off of the vile awful sh*t that happens to others.

  16. Shouldn’t Ms. Stephanie have been advised not to discuss this matter in public before any charges are brought against her “father”? Sadly, despite being talented gunsmiths, these people are pretty classless. I would guess their closets are crammed full of skeletons we don’t really want to know about, but many people (readers of “The National Enquirer” and regular viewers of Dr. Phil and his ilk), whose lives are so desperately dull and meaningless that most of us would jump off a bridge than live like they do, will gobble this garbage up, burp loudly and hope for more….it’s the mental/emotional equivalent of pigs following cattle around the feed lot gobbling up the cow’s feces as soon as expelled by the cow.

    “Dr. Phil”, like the Producers of “Sons of Guns” has a show to produce, maybe an anti-gun ax to grind, as well.
    His moral compass is completely de-magnetized as he desperately tries to cling to his “fame”.

    The anti’s routinely state that gun owning men have penile inadequacies, which is why they “need” guns to compensate for their sexual inadequacy. It’s spurious and deliberately intended to piss us off. Best ignored.

    Nonetheless, if Dr. Phil gets Stephanie to tell her lurid story in excruciating detail on National TV, it will be used against us POTG in even more vile insinuation.

    This is what the Democratic Socialists have brought this country to. We are nearing the proverbial bottom of the civil and social barrel where the apples are all rotten and worm infested. If we allow this to reach its trending conclusion, then we deserve whatever demise it brings us to. In November of this year, vote as if your lives, liberty and legacy depend upon it…because they do!

  17. This has to be the dumbest move possible for any witness in an active investigation/case that has not yet gone to trial. She may well be giving Will his pass for a mistrial because after all, no juror would be unbiased going Into it.

    The prosecutors forgot to tell her to shut up, or she just doesn’t listen. Either way, bad move.

  18. “But it’s how people think, if you want to call it that.”
    Roman Polanski and Woody Allen seem to be exempt from the “guilt by association” problem. And the film industry seems to criticize the gun community more than most.

  21. Guilty or not, these days it’s all about perception, not facts. And the damage to the gun community has already been done by this story

  22. OK, lemme spell it out for you folks again. I think I’ve already said this several times on TTAG, but I’m going to say it again:

    If you see a gunsmith shop with lots of drama, go somewhere else. There shouldn’t be any “drama” in a gunsmith’s shop.

    I quit watching “SoG” when I saw them creating “drama” about fixing a Bridgeport to get a customer’s gun done “that afternoon,” while they had a Haas VMC slightly out of focus in the background. Once that scene showed, there was never anything they could do again to make themselves look competent in my eyes.

    • Good call out. I saw things that as a customer, made me think I would never use their services. It’s interesting to hear it from an actual Smith.

    • “If you see a gunsmith shop with lots of drama, go somewhere else. There shouldn’t be any “drama” in a gunsmith’s shop.”

      +1

    • Point of order, gentlemen – like all so-called “reality” shows on TV the drama is scripted in by the producers and the stars of the show read their lines and act out the drama because that’s what the producers think will keep people interested and coming back to watch the commercials, which is the whole point of the show in the first place.

      Like the phony fights and over the top drama of the WWE that would get any person hard time in prison if the action was real, it’s all show biz and the intent is to make a buck.

  23. Really feels like the intent here is to poison a possible jury trial AND get this thrown out. This whole Doctor Phil thing seems very well planned on the Hayden’s side of things.

  24. Indeed–this is nothing short of fodder for the Antis incessant-fire…The story is horrendous on so many levels and it utterly sickens my stomach to no end.

  25. The cognitive dissonance on display is not at all surprising. This is naturally what happens when people don’t have their own identity.

  28. You know I never watched Sons of Guns, it looked really dumb to me. With all this hubub the conspiracy theorist in me wonders if it wasn’t all a psy-op.

    But that can’t be, because it would entail the involvement of Law Enforcement and the Judiciary with the Mass Media to perpetuate particular negative views regarding gun owners.

    Who could imagine such a thing in a country as free as this one? It would be part of a conspiracy too monstrous to conceive!

    Those of you who have watched the show, which do you think is more likely: The scenario put forward above or the notion that Hayden is a prolific child molester whose own daughter and victim defended him on national television, only for her to change her mind on facebook and go on Dr.Phil?

    Personally I am reserving judgement for after the interview. I think both potentialities are equally strange and conceivable.

  29. Before show went off the air Stephanie defended Will.. Show gets cancelled Stephanie changes her story.. If Will did what Stephanie claims..Why in the hell did she allow her twelve year old half sister…to live with Will.. …she knew what he did..

  31. I’d like to know what she stands to gain by coming forward NOW after all these years.
    It’s not like she hasn’t had plenty of time AND opportunity to say something before.
    And she worked WITH HER DAD in that business for years. You would think once she
    was grown she’d want to get away from an abuser. This whole think stinks like yesterdays
    garbage.

  32. I’m a leftie, and I liked the show, and I liked Hayden, sort of. I at least appreciated the seriousness with which he and his employees treated dangerous weapons.

    Pretty weird that Discovery picks one gun family, and all this insanity comes out. I don’t think it typifies gun owners, but statisticailly, its pretty ironic that they pick one and it all turns rotten, either because Dad is a psycho, or his family is nuts.

  33. The guy has not been found guilty yet but seems to be already judged, I always thought that Stephanie had her thumb up her a**e, always attention seeking thinking it was the “this is the I am beautiful Stephanie show”. “Hate to tell you this girl but not that great”. Why did she defend him to start with? seems strange all this has come about after the money stopped from the program and her failing business, perhaps she has to earn more to keep that lazy useless husband of hers. If all this is true the guy should be hung but if it is not they should get the sentence that he would have got if found guilty. Over here in Britain we have shot guns and some rifles because of the strict gun laws but I don’t think this typifies the gun community in any way, I have always found that the majority of legal gun owners are the most law abiding. If someone is capable of this atrocity guns have nothing to do with it.

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