Cime scene where backup gun proved decisive (courtesy KMOV.com)

I don’t carry a backup gun, just a spare magazine. Then again, I don’t carry my gun in my waistband . . . Victim shoots suspects during robbery in Old North St. Louis

Police say the incident happened at a BP gas station the intersection of Madison and Florissant around 6:45 p.m. Thursday.

The victim went up to the gas station window to buy something. He had a gun in his waistband, police said. He has a CCW permit.

A suspect then tried to grab the gun, but the victim pulls out another gun before the suspect fired shots. The victim then returned fire wounding the suspect.

Police said another suspect got out of a car and he was also hit. One suspect was shot in the leg and the other was shot in the stomach.

The suspects then drove to a hospital, where authorities say they were conscious and breathing when they arrived.

The victim was shot in the shoulder during the robbery, police said. He went up the street to his house to call police.

The victim was conscious and breathing when he was taken to a hospital.

[h/t Bob Irwin]

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56 COMMENTS

  1. Been sold on the BUG concept for a few weeks now. Still don’t know what to get though, tough decision because there’s a lot of options out there for small guns, which is what a BUG should be.

    • Ruger LCP is a great (tiny) gun and for $200 they’re a great deal. Could probably pack two extras, they slip into a pocket well.

      LCP II sounds even better, but I have no trigger time on one.

      • LCP II is excellent, just as reliable as the original, sticks to your hand better during recoil, has better, more useful sights and a noticeably better trigger than a Glock 42, far better than the original LCP. It’s the American Express of handguns, I don’t leave home without it.

      • Might throw out a plug for the LCR while you’re at it. 3 ounces heavier, but having the reliability of a revolver. + the special should be a bit more effective than the auto.

        • The only down side to the 9 mm LCR is it’s on the heavier .357 frame, about 4 ounces heavier than the .38. But then it’s right about the same weight as an LC9s. It also carries the higher price tag of the .357. In a pinch you could reload from your malfunctioning pistols mag azine pretty easily but extracting the spent reloads might be a problem without the moon clips. Definitely would have an edge if your primary weapon is a 9.

        • I have an LCR in .38 Special and .327 Federal Magnum and highly recommend the .327. Better ballistics than the .38 and one more round. And it’s a joy to shoot in .32 S&W Long, so folks will actually practice with it. And if the .327 is too hot to shoot, it will shoot .327 H&R magnum as well.

        • .327 would be my first choice for an LCR as a primary EDC.

          As for BUGs, mine is an AR-15. The only down side is my EDC has to get me to my truck before I can deploy my BUG.

    • TruthTellers,

      Your choice of backup gun depends on what your normally carry and where/how you carry it.

      Most people seem to choose:
      (1) A sub-compact single-stack semi-automatic pistol
      — or —
      (2) A j-frame revolver (especially concealed hammer versions)

      In terms of sub-compact single-stack semi-automatic pistols, I really like the Ruger LCP series or Taurus TCP series (both chambered in .380 ACP) which fit nicely in a pocket holster.

      • Well, I can tell you that the pistol will either be a single stack 9mm or a subcompact doublestack .40… maybe a 9mm.

        My preference is for the BUG to use the same cartridge as the primary and be a revolver for the reliability. I figure if I need to draw a BUG, then I need it to function without issues. So, if I carry a .40, the Charter Pitbull is the only .40 revolver I know of that’s made. If I go with 9mm, the Ruger LCR or Charter Pitbull.

        And if it’s a hot day and I don’t think I can conceal a 9 or .40, then I’ll go with an LCP and the BUG will be a second LCP and an NAA mini revolver as last ditch.

        • TruthTellers,

          Your rationale sounds rock solid to me.

          If you are going with a single-stack semi-auto pistol in 9mm, I really like the Ruger LC9 series as well as the Taurus 709 Slim series. A lot of people also like the Diamondback DB9.

          If you end up carrying two such pistols, which hold seven rounds in the magazine plus one in the chamber for a grand total of 16 rounds, I think you would be in pretty good shape for almost all encounters.

          Oh, and I just thought of something else. I know you want to keep ammunition commonality. Consider the Ruger LCR in .327 Federal Magnum. That gives you 6 rounds in a small revolver and you get the added oomph of .327 Federal Magnum.

          Make sure you report back in and tell us what you end up doing.

        • TruthTellers,

          I want to clarify my previous comment about a revolver in .327 Federal Magnum. It would obviously NOT be the same caliber as 9mm or .40 S&W ammunition. Nevertheless, it might be worthwhile since it carries six rounds instead of five rounds and the rounds are more potent.

          Furthermore, I don’t see any reason to purchase a bunch of ammunition for the .327 Federal Magnum revolver backup gun since you only need to shoot a few rounds to be confident that it is reliable and sighted-in.

          Finally, I don’t think that you would need to carry reloads since I doubt that you would ever find yourself in a situation where:
          (1) You were in a deadly-force self-defense encounter,
          — and —
          (2) Your primary firearm failed,
          — and —
          (3) You had time to draw your backup revolver in .327,
          — and —
          (4) You fired all six shots,
          — and —
          (5) You had time to reload the revolver.

    • I carry a PF9 as a BUG that works great, but if you are going to carry any subcompact gun that is a DAO, just be sure you practice with it every week. I never fail to put at least two magazines through mine weekly. That way I am reassured of its reliability and I have gotten proficient enough with it to shoot tight groups on center of mass at 10-15 feet. The trigger pull on these little DAO guns is like using a staple gun. Learn to use it so you can hit what you need to.

  2. The newest LCP-II is a great BUG, try one at a range. It is much nicer than the older models or a Keltec P3-AT, and it shoots very well for a tiny gun.

  3. I still carry a Sig P938 As a BUG on occasion. I have nothing against a G26 though. I just don’t own one.

  4. “He had a gun in his waistband…”

    In his waistband, or in a holster in his waistband?

    Conceal carry. Yes, he won the fight. But he still took a round in the shoulder (potentially lethal if it goes the wrong way or hits the wrong vessel) when he could have probably avoided the fight altogether.

    • Maybe he was Mexican?

      Who are you to judge other cultures?

      Probably a good thing he wasn’t Israeli.

      Probably a good thing for the perp he wasn’t Mozambican.

      • Actually- the way the man was carrying is called “Mexican Carry”. Not meant to be derogatory, although I didn’t read his comment since it was edited.

        • Good point. When open Mexican carrying, carry Israeli, then Mozambique with your BUG when the perp grabs your primary.

    • Have Ruger GP100 357 4.25” barrel six round WC version. What holster would you suggest for concealed carry?

      • Go with whatever the Guv says he has done his homework. That’s a big gun to conceal but with the right holster you can’t ask for much better. I made the mistake of buying a uber small/ light 357 magnum as my first carry traded it in fast.

  6. Every once in a while, I carry an S&W M642 as a BUG. Often, I carry the M642 as a primary. Either way, I always carry that little M642.

    And nobody knows but me. And now, you.

  8. My Russian Makarov chambered in .380 fits well into a waistband holster. Great BUG for hiking on wilderness trails.

  11. Carrying a weapon in such a way as to be easily seen and grabbed by an attacker sounds pretty retarded to me. That’s a big reason right there I don’t open carry, especially on my hip where any f**k chop could walk up from behind and grab it. No wonder the guy is carrying a BUG. Heck, if I was doing that, I’d make my BUG a .45 of some sort with wicked-ass hollow points. Someone grabs my gun, they die. You have to assume that someone grabbing your gun is a very dangerous thing.

    However, I don’t carry in such a method as to attract unwanted attention by open carrying a gun which in my view is a huge look at me sign saying I’m an idiot tool with small hands and if I could afford it, I’d drive a bright red Corvette. Honestly, I haven’t met a daily open carrier I liked. Every single one I have run into comes off like a knob.

    • As a long time Corvette owner I’d like to say I don’t have small hands. Nor am I an idiot (the vast majority of the time) 🙂

      I also don’t open carry for the same reason you don’t; I don’t want the attention.

      I admit when I first started carrying the idea of a faster draw and a visual deterrent seemed appealing until my wife pointed out two things regarding open carry:
      1. If I can draw it quickly, so can someone coming up behind me (stores, banks, crowded malls, etc).
      2. If someone is intent on doing evil an open carried firearm can put you at #1 on the target list (being the first to go down does little to help others).

      But then again my Corvettes have always been black or silver. Never cared much for red.

      • @ Mongoos
        Yeah I did say bright RED Corvette. They lady next doors boy friend is a galactic idiot and guess what he drives, a bright red Corvette.

        And @ uncommon_sense, I counter your argument that if cops had the choice, they wouldn’t be in uniform and open carry. Also, show me ONE COP ANYWHERE who when off duty open carries.
        I bet you can’t find ONE. People don’t run up behind cops and grab guns because they know police have hand to hand training and won’t hesitate killing their stupid ass.
        Anybody with both hand to hand training and weapons training is going to be a bad choice to victimize.
        A cop in uniform is a pretty clear indicator of a bad choice.
        However, some schmuck walking around Walmart with his S&W M&P hanging out there like his sh– don’t stink, heck, why not?
        As far as open carrying so people see it is a normal activity and there is nothing to be afraid of, well I’d buy into that if every single time I see an open carrier, he wasn’t acting like a stuck up knob.
        I’m keenly aware of and notice the open carry attitude. They have that aura about them and it’s not approach me and lets talk. So sorry, I don’t accept that load of malarkey. I don’t buy into your argument one little bit. A weapon is best left mostly hidden.

    • MLee,

      First of all, if carrying a firearm openly is such a huge liability, how come we don’t here about criminals sneaking up behind police and snatching their handguns all the time? Answer: because it pretty much never happens.

      Second of all, there are really nice RETENTION holsters available for a modest price (about $40) that make it extremely difficult for some two-bit thug to snatch your handgun from behind.

      Third of all, open carry is a method of acclimating people to the concept of good, decent, everyday people being armed in public, which is a direct action to protect our right to keep and bear arms from unconstitutional government infringement.

      Sure, carrying a firearm openly could make you a target. It could also convince a ne’er-do-well to go some place else.

      • I have 5 Corvettes in my collection, two of which are bright red, the other three are blue and I do not open carry, so there goes your theory about that.

        I have been playing with cars as long as I have been firearms and I have been conceal carrying for 40 years. I am a Federally Licensed Firearms Dealer and have my Concealed Carry License.

        For concealed carry, I chose the sub-compact .45ACP Springfield XD MOD.2 (XDG) because it has more features, is the same size as the 9mm Springfield XDS and S&W M&P Shield, but holds 13+1 rounds of .45 ACP +P.

        I feed it Winchester Ranger T-Series (RA45TP) 230 grain JHP .45 ACP +P (the successor to the Black Talon) ammunition because it consistently expands to 1-inch and penetrates 14.5″ in the FBI heavy clothing, sheet metal, drywall, plywood, and auto glass ballistic gelatin tests.

        My second magazine is loaded with 13 rounds of old-school (green & yellow box) Remington (R45AP6) 185 grain JHP .45 ACP +P (1140 fps) which is no longer available (replaced with less powerful Golden Saber) and my third magazine is loaded with 13 rounds of Speer Lawman (53067) 230 grain round nose TMJ (Total Metal Jacket – much better than FMJ) which has superior barrier penetration and tends to tumble after impacting several inches of ballistic gelatin).

        For my second draw option (aka deep concealment or backup gun), I chose the sub-compact Ruger LCP II .380 ACP (9mm short), because it is the highest quality, safest, and smallest .380 ACP pocket pistol on the market.

        I feed it Hornady Critical Defense (90080) 90 gr FTX 380 Auto ammunition because it consistently expands to .52″ and penetrates 13.2″ in the FBI heavy clothing, sheet metal, drywall, plywood, and auto glass ballistic gelatin tests.

        My second magazine is loaded with 10 rounds of old-school (white box) Winchester Super-X Silvertip (X380ASHP) 85 grain JHP .380 ACP (1000 fps) which is no longer available (the current Silvertip, that comes in a silver box is not as good) and my third magazine is loaded with 10 rounds of Speer Lawman (53608) 95 grain round nose TMJ (Total Metal Jacket – much better than FMJ) which has superior barrier penetration and tends to tumble after impacting several inches of ballistic gelatin).

        For the wife, I went with the Remington RM380 Micro Concealed Carry .380 ACP (9mm short) pistol mainly due to the current post-Christmas rebate which lowered the price to $99 including two magazines. This deep concealment micro pistol is Remington’s improved remake of the $1,200.00 Rohrbaugh Firearms model R380 which is all metal, hammer fire, and with an easier slide to rack. A super value on an extremely high quality firearm.

        I feed it the same as my Ruger LCP II.

  12. LCP II as a BUG in the pocket holster it came with over a year ago. It is a great choice that no fat cylinder revolver will ever match. That holster has held up far better than I expected.

  16. Another reason I carry appendix. Tougher to see with most types of clothing and much reduced risk of some asshole from sneaking up behind me to take it from me.

  18. Carry cheap a** Bersa Thunder 380 w/10 round magazine. It’s easily replaced if ever used for SD
    Took Texas Concealed Handgun License with it, and passed with a respectable score. Also got to practice two clearing drills with it during the test. Backup is Ruger LCR 22lr or Ruger SR 22lr with 10 round magazine. Have a second LCR 22lr in event of LEO seizing weapon upon SD use.
    Car carry is Bersa 22lr because that is only handgun that fits a Sneaky Pete holster, other than Glocks, not a fan of those.
    If you say the LCRs are not effective due to heavy trigger pull, you are a girly man for not either not knowing trigger position for revolver vs pistol, or haven’t dry fired 200-300 rounds with metal snap caps. I’m a 66 old woman with some hand weakness. If I can do it, you can too.

    I do have much more expensive handguns GP 101 and GP 100, they have vintage grips on them in great condition. Because I admire form vs function they are “Safe Queens. Take them out for cleaning and lub job. I do love handsome handguns and old style steel frames. But maybe just me, your mileage may vary.

  20. In Re: MLee’s post December 28, 2017 at 00:02:

    I have 5 Corvettes in my collection, two of which are bright red, the other three are blue and I do not open carry, so there goes your theory about that.

    I have been playing with cars as long as I have been firearms and I have been conceal carrying for 40 years. I am a Federally Licensed Firearms Dealer and have my Concealed Carry License.

    For concealed carry, I chose the sub-compact .45ACP Springfield XD MOD.2 (XDG) because it has more features, is the same size as the 9mm Springfield XDS and S&W M&P Shield, but holds 13+1 rounds of .45 ACP +P.

    I feed it Winchester Ranger T-Series (RA45TP) 230 grain JHP .45 ACP +P (the successor to the Black Talon) ammunition because it consistently expands to 1-inch and penetrates 14.5″ in the FBI heavy clothing, sheet metal, drywall, plywood, and auto glass ballistic gelatin tests.

    My second magazine is loaded with 13 rounds of old-school (green & yellow box) Remington (R45AP6) 185 grain JHP .45 ACP +P (1140 fps) which is no longer available (replaced with less powerful Golden Saber) and my third magazine is loaded with 13 rounds of Speer Lawman (53067) 230 grain round nose TMJ (Total Metal Jacket – much better than FMJ) which has superior barrier penetration and tends to tumble after impacting several inches of ballistic gelatin).

    For my second draw option (aka deep concealment or backup gun), I chose the sub-compact Ruger LCP II .380 ACP (9mm short), because it is the highest quality, safest, and smallest .380 ACP pocket pistol on the market.

    I feed it Hornady Critical Defense (90080) 90 gr FTX 380 Auto ammunition because it consistently expands to .52″ and penetrates 13.2″ in the FBI heavy clothing, sheet metal, drywall, plywood, and auto glass ballistic gelatin tests.

    My second magazine is loaded with 10 rounds of old-school (white box) Winchester Super-X Silvertip (X380ASHP) 85 grain JHP .380 ACP (1000 fps) which is no longer available (the current Silvertip, that comes in a silver box is not as good) and my third magazine is loaded with 10 rounds of Speer Lawman (53608) 95 grain round nose TMJ (Total Metal Jacket – much better than FMJ) which has superior barrier penetration and tends to tumble after impacting several inches of ballistic gelatin).

    For the wife, I went with the Remington RM380 Micro Concealed Carry .380 ACP (9mm short) pistol mainly due to the current post-Christmas rebate which lowered the price to $99 including two magazines. This deep concealment micro pistol is Remington’s improved remake of the $1,200.00 Rohrbaugh Firearms model R380 which is all metal, hammer fire, and with an easier slide to rack. A super value on an extremely high quality firearm.

    I feed it the same as my Ruger LCP II.

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