Texas DPS started switching over to the new Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm handguns recently for their state troopers. The polymer framed striker-fired handguns are popular with police departments and competition shooters. The ability to carry more rounds per magazine (9mm vs. .357 SIG) in a lighter gun were among the stated reasons for the change. But it appears that the latest wave of recruits in training have experienced an “unacceptable” number of issues with the new gun, and the department is rolling back the changeover, moving back to their tried and true SIG SAUER P226 pistols in .357 SIG. As an owner of a P226, I can’t say I blame them. Here’s the word to the troops from the man himself, forwarded by a source close to TTAG . . .

As you are aware I approved the adoption of the Smith and Wesson M&P 9mm as the Department’s service handgun beginning with Recruit School A14. However, we have been experiencing malfunctions during Recruit School firearms training, which is unacceptable, and I have suspended the transition to the Smith and Wesson M&P 9mm.

Even if the manufacturer is able to address our issues over the next week, we cannot afford to risk the extra training time that was added to address transition contingincies. Education, Training and Research will continue to work with the manufacturer on this issue, but today, Trooper Trainees will be issued Sig Sauer 357 handguns, which we have in our inventory as a precaution.

To be fair to S&W, almost every time a major department transitions from one product to another there are problems. It could be that DPS hasn’t found the right ammo or something similarly trivial, but for now the Republic of Texas will remain a SIG SAUER state.

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268 COMMENTS

  1. In my opinion if a firearm won’t function properly with multiple different loads for ammo it’s not worth owning.

    • It could also be an ammo issue, perhaps the ammo had a batch of bad primers.

      It is too early to draw any conclusions. During the LASD’s M&P transition there was a temporary halt like this one due to extraction issues. It turned out that one guy had futzed with his gun.

      • I have an M&P in .40 and .45 and the one universal thing I have found is that the barrel requires a little lubrication. A drop of good synthetic gun oil on the barrel when the slide is locked back and it cycles perfectly. I have run a bunch of different factory loads and never had any problems after that. It’s a simple two second fix that is actually documented in the manual as one of the points that requires lubrication.

      • Are you even trying to suggest that they couldn’t tell the difference between a bad lot of ammo and weapons that were actually malfunctioning. If the guns just won’t run a certain brand that is one thing. But to say the instructors would look at a bunch of bad primers and go, “Eh, probably the gun”. is ludicrous.

        • I served in the USMC 12yrs , OCSF 13yrs . Owned glocks had them for service weapons . Now have the m&p 40 . I like both but the m&p shoots better for me . Liked so much went and sold my personal glocks had for years and got the m&p 40 and the shield 40 . If you are looking for a nice ccw you will love the shield . When i got the shield streight to the range out of the box 500 rounds , love it I would ever thought I could feel this way about a gun .

      • I have found in a lot of gun makers that u can find fault, with them all. When i first fired my COLT gold cup, it had stovpipes. Of course it was my fault. With my s@w 41 22cal i had jams. My fault! My p85 Ruger had stovpipes my fault. My Colt trouper had hard cocking after 100 molded wad cutters fired true it , and years of use. I have a M@P 40 full size, have had some stovpipes. I have a Baretta 9mm 17 capacity mag. Just got it, swamped my Ruger in on it. Just like the feal of it. I like a lot of u folks reload ammo to save money. All my problems went away , when a gun Smith was next to me in a 270 25 yard target match. First of all keep it Kleen, oiled properly, brushing off lead build up, hold it like its in a vice. What ever hand u use, lock the elbow , stand firm. I have never tried to put one round in and jerk the trigger. But i believe it would not have good performance results. I love all u gun folks .
        Be safe!

    • M&Ps and XDms are just a cheap copy of a GLOCK. They are in most cases inferior even though they have a large fan base of guys that swear by them. I own 19 GLOCK pistols that makeup most of the lineup. I had 8 M&P pistols and am now down to just 3 left. I’m not even crazy about those and am considering unloading them. Sure they function ok, but the accuracy sucks compared to a GLOCK. If you want to stay in the same league as a GLOCK you need a Walther PPQ M1 or a HK VP9. The others aren’t going to do it for you. I can’t believe guys who own both and can’t tell a difference. They must be a lousy marksman to not be able to. The GLOCK will almost always shoot much much better and it just feels smoother when it functions than a M&P.

      I’m not supprized they are going back to a Sig Sauer classic P-Series pistol. They are in another league even above a common GLOCK, let alone a crappy S&W M&P. Classic Sig Sauer P-Series pistols and Beretta M9/92FS pistols generally shoot much better than polymer pistols. It often takes a longtime accomplished shooter of “expert” qualifications to notice though. Your wife or girlfriend who just started shooting 5 years ago isn’t going to be able to tell. That USMC Vet that always qualified “pistol expert” sure as day can…..So can the top shooter in competition at your local gun club/range.

    • I never gave much thought to Glock – until I owned one.

      It’s not exactly pretty, but I get why guys like them. They are easy – they eat any ammo, they always run, they are easy to clean and they are lightweight.

      My Glock is the “appliance” in my collection, but if SHTF – that’s the one I’m grabbing out of the safe.

      -ted

      • I agree, though I don’t own a GLOCK I completely understand the “appliance” approach to their likability. For comparison, I am an avid car enthusiast and I work for a Tier 1 automotive supplier, yet I drive a 2000 Mazda Protege DX with an automatic transmission and 182k miles on the odometer. Why? I drive 70 miles round trip every day, 60 of those on the highway, and the car sits all weekend. I have absolutely no reason to buy something fancy or high performance, or something with wild styling. I’ll drive this until it dies, then buy another suitable appliance with 4 wheels.

        Same with guns. I happen to have inherited a P226, which is very nice, but also 26-odd years old. It has eaten everything I’ve fed it. Yeah, I could go buy a sexy new EDC piece, but this one serves me just fine.

      • +1 for the “applilance” moniker. I was with most old schoolers when Glock first came to market, making fun of any and everything we could think of about the ugly, block shaped, half plastic pistol whose firing mechanism has the confidence inspiring (NOT), click of a ball point pin when it’s dry fired. Furthermore, not being a good handgun shot, I loved my HK USPs because they made me look better than any handgun ever had when I fired single action. However, being an OCD perfectionist I couldn’t stand my every-other-round stove pipes with nasty cheap reloads that I used for volume range time. Then came the very exhaustive and compelling report I read in the late 90’s revealing from decades of statistics involving seasoned law enforcement and military combat veterans that in the heat and stress of “the moment” even THEY would often forget to disengage the safety and struggle to pull the trigger. Being a high anxiety person myself and NOT a combat veteran I could easily see myself forgetting de-activate the the safety in a tense scenario. With my first Glock I LOVED it not being ammo picky and they amazing simplicity of the design and disassembly. I have been a Glock “fanboy” ever since. I STILL don’t shoot as well with the Glocks, I still find them ugly and boring, and I have cheated on them many times for the luxury of other brands and firing mechanisms. But I always end up liquidating the others and sticking with my Glocks because I am not financially able to have the assortment of toys that I lust over. For me, it’s pretty much the wisdom I should apply if looking for a life-long faithful wife. Notice I said IF, because it’s hard not to lust after the eye candy.

      • I know, I know. But I did it too. On one hand I can’t believe I did it but on the other hand I still feel it was the common sense decision. You know, like letting go of the beautiful slut for the plain girl who is 10 times more likely to be by your side if you’re blessed enough to grow old. Okay, maybe that was a very low blow towards Sig. They are a DAMN fine firearm and very reliable. I’m just totally convinced that in the worst possible scenarios Glock has the advantage, even if it’s only slight.

    • So the two glocks that malfunctioned repeatedly at a recent steel match were a figment of my imagination. Good to know.

      • Well… were they stock, or modified? At a match there’s a good change the owner monkeyed with it, and at that point all bets are off.

    • In my anecdotal experience, Glocks and M&Ps experience failures at the exact same rate, and for the exact same reason; limp wristing when shooting weak handed. Which My P220 and 229 does not do. Probably just me, but I wouldn’t be surprised if softer, lighter polymer frames are marginally more apt to malfunction in that situation than a heavier, stiffer metal frame. And the failures in TX seem to have happened during training, which is probably the only time anyone does enough weak handed shooting to notice any anomaly…..

      And to be fair, my P220 is more ammo finicky than either my G21&30, or M&P 45; both of which eats even the most flat fronted cast bullets without issue.

      • While I agree the platforms (M&P,Glock) are comparable as far as reliability when it comes to .40 and 45. The M & P 9, especially the full size has had a litany of problems since it’s inception. Smith is on their third Barrel due to accuracy and lock up issues, they also had slide rust problems and striker failure issues. I would argue that until the Gen4 you could argue the Smith was superior in the 40. But up until the issues with the early Gen4 springs in the 19 and 17 Glock had a far better reliability record in the 9’s.

        Not being a fan of the 40, I’ve given up on the Smith M & P, although I still consider the Shield worth a look. I’ve tried the .45 and while ergonomically it’s a good gun, I can’t get past the cheapness in finish of Smiths mags, problems with the mag springs, and trigger feel. And not to forget, Smiths aftermarket support is a blip compared to Glocks. To me the Glock just feels like a complete gun and the Smith feels like a gun that needs some refining. They aren’t bad guns (Taurus’s) but I’m just not sure they are Glocks.

        • Wtf are you talking about? How did the conversation go from S&W and GLOCK to Taurus? Your comment are so trollish; everything is exaggerated or a half-truth, and then you top it off with comparing S&W to Taurus when everyone knows that Taurus makes PRODUCTS for profit and not firearms to trust your life on.

          Not as refined? Everyone who has held an M&P loves the refined look and feel of the gun, and it has earned a reputation in reliability. It had issues, S&W fixed them.

          Oh and btw, Glocks have unsupported case and explode. Fair review?

    • + 1000000000

      Also I have read over the years that some guns like the M&P are best when you use the caliber it was originally released in, as every model after that is a modified version of that. In the case of the M&P I think it was released in .40 originally. I know they had a lot of issues with the 9mm’s when they first came out, accuracy and play in the barrel spacing. Following that logic a Glock 17 should be the best Glock.

      • I have a m and p 40 . No problems so far .works well and pretty acute a 60 yards. Can keep all the rounds on the med section of a two by two foot area.

    • My brother son is a cop. He has a glock. Mite perchus me one some time. My next gun will be aH@k 40. The air marshals carry them. My b routher has fired over 1400 rounds with out a single problem, (reloads).? I don’t know if its the cost or what. Maybe the tax payers cant afford a1200.00 dollor gun, or more with tax. I believe the low should have the best. I have shot it and its a fine perfesional quality peace. Well built.

      • Well i went over the results ,if a person would be scared in to shouting some one. (Self-defense) . If i understand it the low will take your gun in to evidence. U may be hand cuffed , and carried to jail. To be asked about what happened. The judge will determine if u get your gun back, or when. I understand its best to just say i was scared for my life. And say no more. Let your attorney consolt u. If u are like me u will think more clearly after u settele down. Well with all this in mind , i am considering bying a cheep revolver and leaving my keepsakes in my gun safe. I pray to GOD i will never have to use a firearm to protect my self. Sounds like a lot of problems to me. Love u all be safe fellows.

    • Are there any official agencies in the USA that have standardized on a CZ? I’m not aware of any and for the life of me, I cannot figure out why (not).

      • A lot of cops would balk at walking around with a CZ 75 on their hip all day. Too freaking heavy. But that is why the P-01 and PCR exist . . . .

        • What about a gun out of a a10 jet. Just kidding. If thay had that , the killers wouldn’t be safe in a tank.

      • According to Wikipedia there are several police departments that use the CZ-75, as well as Delta Force apparently.

        Unsure why they are not so considered here in the US, considering they are used in pretty much every single corner of the world otherwise you know? Maybe something to do with availability.

        • They are used by pretty much all cops in Europe, it is either CZ or SIG,HK (in rich countries like Norway) and Glock (in Austria). Most cops I talked to don’t like the Glock/plastic fantastic. Then again these are war vets and probably do more with a pistol than just shoot (like bashing someones face in).

          I would personally recommend CZs, though I can’t understand the “too heavy” complaint. It weighs pretty much the same as every full-size, steel framed pistol.

      • The only pistol that ever broke on me while firing was a P07 Duty, had less than 200 rounds through it. Still like it, but I moved over to the Glock as my ready gun from that point forward.

  5. The same thing happened to our dept when the M$P first came out. When out EST teams went to the S&W 1911 platform we had some major problems.

    • What issues are they having? I’ve probably run close to 1,500 rounds through my M&P9 and the only issue I had is promags suck and won’t feed the last round. Stock mags have been flawless.

      • I have the same question: “malfunction issues” is pretty damn vague – and could be anything, including the ammo.

        I have thousands of rounds though my MP40 VTAC and it has not even so much as hiccuped once.

      • +1 on this.

        I stopped counting at 2500 some odd rounds through my M&P9 and I’ve literally had zero issues with it. It’s performed flawlessly with everything I’ve fed it, from the damn dirty whore ball ammo to the highest-end PD loads. Plenty accurate too, although I’m not shooting more than 15 yards or so. I do keep it decently lubed, though have run it pretty dry. And I can’t claim to keep it as regularly clean as my OCD really demands. I have a TALO edition with Nickel Boron slide treatment…Maybe it has something to do with it? But setting aside the less than golden stock trigger feel, I’ve never had any issues with it and I’ve beaten it up pretty good.

    • Actually, the free samples S&W gave to Atlanta PD are now being resold commercially by GT Distributing as police trade ins. Atlanta went back to Glock brand glocks.

      Because GLOCK.

      • Wow, I found the link to the APD .40 S&Ws pistols on GT’s website under used handguns. The pistols are even engraved with “Atlanta Police.” GT Distributors does not list how many they have for sale. So Atlanta PD did not pay anything for these handguns and traded them to GT for credit, I assume? And now GT is selling them for $359 each? It is tough being a supplier to the government.

  7. My M&P9 has had zero malfunctions in over 2,500 rounds while being fed WWB, Remington UMC, Tulammo, Brown Bear, and Federal HST. Something sounds fishy.

    • All my m&p’s shoot without any issues…same goes for my sig p226. Maybe I just got lucky.

    • I concur, I’ve run tons of Tulammo through my M&P and couldn’t get it to malfunction.

    • limp-wristing patrol officers.

      You don’t experience “reliability issues” with an already-entrenched issued firearm, because nobody is actively testing its reliability. I doubt the SIG pistols have ever REALLY been tested, or if they were, it was years back with a completely different set of officers that were perhaps held to a higher standard than those of today.

      • I’d like to see the correlation between malfunctions and sex of operator (BTW, no offense to women TTAGers but rather to the quality of government sanctioned affirmative action hiring procedures)

      • I had this issue with my Witness P 40 when I first got it. Had a horrible flinch and it gave me malfunctions. Took training (and random dummy rounds in my mags) to get rid of the flinch. I got rid of the 40 even though I finally got over it, just not a fan of the round. Terrible first choice.

      • My first thought was limp-wristing too. Polymer-framed semi autos are more susceptible to this than metal-framed ones like the P226 from what I’ve read, due to having less weight for the slide to push against. There’s lots of info about this on Google, and a few YouTube videos, one showing a Glock 17/19 malfunctioning almost every time during a limp wrist test, while the P226 handles an imperfect-grip just fine:

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh9JhCyFFxA
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsewsolPyBU

        This is why I refuse to carry anything other than a revolver until someone makes a CCW semi-auto that isn’t so susceptible to limp wristing. People will blame the shooter; I say, that’s fine when we’re talking about shooting at the range, but in a defensive situation the gun should be expected to work regardless of whether or not you’re holding it with an imperfect grip due to whatever circumstances you may find yourself in.

        • Amen to that. I carried pistols for decades, and still do now, but for civilian self defense, I’ll trust my life to my wheelies before any pistol. People don’t know how ANY pistol can be unreliable until they shoot them a lot under combat-simulation conditions and drills. I assume that in ccw, I have high chances to be in a hand-hand scuffle, with very imperfect grip conditions, and that’s where a revolver is needed most.

        • Ditto. I own a S&W 4003tsw(40 cal. to those who don’t recognize the model}It was a S.H.P. issue weapon in the 80″s that several states used. The only two issue’s they had with them was weight and they didn’t sport enough rounds in today’s society. My son is a police officer and has a issued Glock 23.when I received the 4003 he asked me why I didn’t buy a Glock. {Well I knew he knew the answer } I purchased it after our great state changed it’s laws about a maximum rd. count of ten in mags. Well we took it out to one of our properties and he loved it. He thought even though it had weight to it .It was good balanced weight. I wouldn’t want to carry it all day likes the State trooper’s did. But it is definatly one as my go to guns for home defence.

      • From what I understand, they have been using the SIGs and the 357 SIG cartridge for many years. That would mean that the same kind academy classes that were experiencing the malfunctions with the S&W pistols were training with SIG pistols in the past, and obviously are again.

    • It could be a training issue. I’ve seen Glocks jam due to limp-wristing and I saw a Browning BDM, a completely different platform, do the same due to a new shooter.

      There is nothing fishy about it.

      I am personally very interested in the S&W M&P despite all the ampersands in the name. This doesn’t put me off but I’ve never experienced some of the problems others have with striker fired pistols.

      • Isn’t the .357 Sig a “hotter” round than 9mm? Seems like that would be even worse for limp-wristers. Or am I wrong somewhere?

        • Yes, from what I understand the .357 SIG makes the 9mm look like a turtle.

          However, I don’t think that is the issue. I’m not aware, but could be corrected, of any steel framed handgun that has had an issue with limp wristing. The P226 may not be susceptible to it.

          Training is training though. Limp wristing may be an easier correction than teaching proper use of a DA/SA set-up and the additional controls needed to go with it. That said, offer me a choice between a P226 in .357 SIG and an M&P and 9mm and I’ll take the SIG all day long.

          That does not mean anything is wrong with the M&P’s they are using.

        • aha, thanks for the info. After looking at the vids, it appears that steel-framed or even aluminum framed guns should not be susceptible to limp-writing. Learn something new every day!

        • Rob is correct, the 9mm runs around 1000 FPS and the .357 sig tends to run closer to 1400 FPS.

          Limp wristing and failure to lube the barrel/slide is probably the main reason for all of this. I would also like to add that the .357 sig round has a better feed profile due to the case diameter vs projectile diameter. The case is the same size as the .40 with a 9mm projectile the projectile lands higher up on the feed ramp and the neck of the case allows it to feed better. Since the Texas DPS was running .357 sig to begin with it would have much more sense to pick up the M&P in that round as well. This would have required little to no change in the ammo stock required to keep on hand.

          You may also like to take a look at the information here http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/6882/9vs375sigob4.jpg

          The .357 sig tends to dump energy faster in the target reducing overall penetration while creating a larger wound channel than the 9mm while going faster and in general having better penetration through objects that are in front of the intended target.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.357_SIG

        • Sigs are heavy. Things people seem to forget about is that heavy doesn’t mean bad. Polymer frame pistols are more likely to suffer from limp wristing than metal frame ones.

  8. Not surprised local PD is switching back to G17 and G19 after issues and poor customer service.

  9. Just my 2 cents the m&p is not unreliable the po po just wanted to spend more taxpayer dollars on nicer kit this is another example of bad spending. i have an m&p 40 with 10000 rounds through it. it has never malfunctioned and i run all ammo even steel cased. it worked flawless in subzero and i have been known to treat it not-so-delicately

    • 10000 rounds without malfunction? LIE.

      Even great, reliable pistols malfunction sometimes. The chances of you having ANY pistol and shooting it for 10000 rounds without a malfunction must be tantamount to winning the lottery. That’s the type of embellished statement that folks who don’t shoot a lot like to type up on ARFCOM to make them sound like operating operators. Can we cut the fanboy nonsense please? Yeesh.

      • Probably an embellishment but doubt by much. Mine’s only had 2 malfunctions related to new promags I bought. Neither one would feed the last round, it would lock back with a round left. Most of what I shoot is reloaded Freedom Munitions ammo too, with 500 reloads from a gun show and 250 rounds of Blazer Brass when I temporarily ran out of the reloads. There isn’t much to break, only weakness I see is the tampon thing on the trigger spring thats there due to harmonics. You aren’t supposed to get that wet with water or cleaner.

        • I agree that he is probably not embellishing much. It’s likely that he either he has 10000 rounds through it and has had very few malfunctions OR he has a smaller round count and zero malfunctions. Either way I believe it. The S&W M&P design is, generally speaking, a reliable one.

          What’s this tampon thing that you can’t get wet? Is that a joke or some actual component of the design? I never heard of that.

        • Look at the trigger spring below the takedown lever and above the mag release. There is a white cotton tube thing thing in the middle of the spring. I heard it referred to as a tampon once and thats how I remember it now. The M&P has some trigger harmonics thing when you pull the trigger, the tampon is basically a spring damper S&W put in because they think it needs it.

      • “The chances of you having ANY pistol and shooting it for 10000 rounds without a malfunction must be tantamount to winning the lottery. ”

        Maybe, maybe not. Depends on cost and quality of construction / smithing.

        I like this:

        http://ballisticradio.com/2014/02/07/the-final-update-sai-mk25-tier-1-prototype-25104-rounds-later/

        Over 25,000 rounds fired with one malfunction at round 3124.

        Also, check out some of Todd Green’s torture tests.

        Blanket statements offered without facts are just as troublesome as fanboy screams of joy.

      • Hes not saying he shot all 10000 rounds at once without cleaning. I think its quite possible to go 10000 rounds without a hitch if you are cleaning and lubing in between. I would think you would want to replace some springs at 10000 rounds though, and its probably a good idea to do a full tear down and inspect for wear if he hasn’t already done that.

        As far as the switch to the M&P I would rather have a Sig. I haven’t found a gun with better ergos for my hand yet.

      • JR,
        I can see your point. However, I would argue that such tests are anecdotal. I would also argue that gunsmithing is irrelevant to the discussion.

        My logic is sound. Pistols, regardless of design, are machines and machines have malfunctions. The higher the round count, the greater the probability of a malfunction. I just simply don’t believe that a pistol goes 10000 rounds without a problem. Posts of that nature are a dime a dozen on any gun website because shooters become emotionally attached to their pistols and anytime their gun’s reputation is threatened they go into defense mode. I don’t need to cite figures. My posts are not academic papers subject to formal peer-review. The odds are he’s lying. Go into any post on any gun website where a “Glock Vs 1911,” “AR-15 Vs AK-47” or “Sig Vs Glock” discussion has occurred. You will see multiple variations of:

        “I have a (INSERT GUN HERE) and it has (INSERT DUBIOUSLY HIGH ROUND COUNT HERE) through it and it has had zero malfunctions.”

        It just is what it is man; fanboy bullshit. Could this one guy be telling the truth, 10000 rounds through an M&P without a jam? Sure it’s technically possible and I will allow for that narrow possibility. Is it waaaaaaay more likely that he’s just falling into a very predictable pattern of embellishment and anonymous defensiveness regarding his pet gun? You betcha.

        • yep. the only gun I own that I cannot remember having some kind of malfunction ammo related or not is my XD-40 only fired around 500 rounds so far. I bet my AK has had a malfunction do to the magazine or something. My XDs .45 riped the cartridge rim off one time, my .357’s have had squib loads, my Ruger mklll got over oiled and had a flash party(I burnt the hair on part of my hands that day), multiple types of failures on AR-15’s, And many other types of issues on all types of weapon systems. If you want to see some malfunctions that make you scratch your head and wonder how the weapon could possibly do that be an armorer for a infantry company. If you are around guns long enough you will see some interesting things happen.

        • “My logic is sound.”

          You are not showing any logic. You are calling a guy a liar based on precisely 0 evidence because you happen to believe that OTHER people are lying or have lied on the subject.

          There are lots of reasons his statement could be wrong or right. Point is: neither you nor I know.

          So, I fail to see the point in commenting on it at all. You read stuff like that, you file it away as “anecdotal” (which does not mean “false”) or take it as face value or whatever. But calling him a liar with no basis to make the claim is not useful in any way shape or form…in fact, it’s quite disrespectful and the kind of thing the anti’s do.

        • So, I fail to see the point in commenting on it at all. You read stuff like that, you file it away as “anecdotal” (which does not mean “false”) or take it as face value or whatever. But calling him a liar with no basis to make the claim is not useful in any way shape or form…in fact, it’s quite disrespectful and the kind of thing the anti’s do.

          +1

        • LOL. Roger JR. You keep on keepin on. For future reference, logic does not require evidence. Logic merely requires reasoning based on rules or principles of validity.

          I will make the following concessions as you are correct:

          1) Anecdotal does not equal false. It also doesn’t equal true. You probably shouldn’t frame your attack on my argument around a perceived lack of evidence when your own evidence is anecdotal. “Anecdotal evidence” is generally considered to be weak and/or unreliable. Holy irony, Batman.

          2) You are correct in that the OP is not necessarily a liar. However, the OP does follow a reliable pattern of lying liars spewing lies about their guns. Perhaps lie is too strong. Is exaggeration better? Not that you should take what I am about to say as evidence, but my own experience includes the fielding of large quantities of many different weapon systems for large organizations. Weapon systems that had varying degrees of reliability ranging from excellent to poor. I stand by my assertion that the vast majority of gun owners making outlandish claims about a weapon’s reliability are merely wrapping their egos around their respective guns. Now, this is NOT to say that their guns are unreliable; they wouldn’t be in love their guns if they didn’t work. It also doesn’t make ALL of them liars..err… exaggerators, per se. There are two sides to any bell curve. However, it does indicate to me that such posts USUALLY exaggerate either (A) round count or (B) number of malfunctions experienced. 1-5 malfunctions in 10000 rounds? Sure. I can believe that and that would constitute a damn reliable weapon, by the way. Most modern pistols are quite reliable. Zero Malfunctions? Pffff. That’s a pretty heady claim, especially taking into account variable such as maintenance methods, frequency of maintenance, ammunition types, lubrication used/not used, pistol make and model, variations in factory processes specific to a certain make and model, etc.

          On a separate note, there should be a special TTAG version of Godwin’s Law, where every disagreement here leads to someone likening another person to the Antis. Perhaps we can call it “JR’s Law.”

      • I think it would be easy to do. I have 2 newish Glock 17’s, Gen 4 models. Both now have about 2k each through them. I have not had one problem so far.

        That said when I take them out I usually shoot between 50-200 rounds at a time, depending upon what I do. After each shooting I field strip them and clean them/lube them. After about 3000 rounds and will tear them down even more and clean them….mags as well. Also I never shoot the super cheap ammo, Russian steel case stuff, slathered in that lacquer. Brass American made target stuff.

        If you take care of them, barring bad ammo I think its possible. I have a M&P Sport that has to have at least 5K rounds through it with out issue. Again, cleaning and lubing after each shooting and no crap ammo.

      • My CZ-75 has gone through about 30000-40000 rounds in it’s life. ONly one malfunction ever. And that was with cheap surplus ammo. Nothing related to the gun. So it is possible. I had a Kimber TLE that went through 40-50000 before something went wrong. So it is more than possible.

      • I’ve put just over 2,000 rounds through my M&P 9, including rounds shot by people I’m showing how to shoot. About 500 of those rounds are from people who it’s the first time they have ever shot a pistol, or haven’t shot a pistol in more than 10 years.

        I’ve had exactly one malfunction, and that was a round that didn’t fire, with a direct clean primer strike. Otherwise it has performed flawlessly.

        I’ve had a Ruger 45 that jammed every other round, and an SKS that couldn’t go two rounds without an issue, so it’s not as if I don’t have other firearm that experience issues.

        While 10,000 rounds without a firearm issue may be a large amount, mine has been shot dirty by beginners with no problems, and has been the picture of reliability.

  10. I want to like the M&P but they do seem to have a higher failure rate in our local IDPA circles compared to other similar pistols models.

  11. When it comes to reliability, there are two choices: Glock and SIG. Period.

    Those willing to tinker can enjoy their 1911’s, Beretta 92’s, Springfield XD’s, S&W MP’s, CZ’s, Remington Abomination, etc…

    • never had to tinker with my rock island 1911(the shorter “conceal carry” one). shoots everytime I pull the trigger, hollow points and round nose. I would bet my life on it

    • In response to Mike: I don’t think you know what you’re talking about. But thanks for sharing your opinion, nonetheless.

    • Disagree. I’ve seen Glocks jam plenty. On the reliability scale they are up there, but they are not top o’ the heap.

      I have a Magnum Research that I can’t get to jam, even shooting Tulammo through it regularly. I had a Ruger P-series that I outright abused and then was abused by my brother-in-law for 10 years. No misfires.

      There are plenty of brands that hit between good and great for reliability. It is not just the two you names and I’d put Glock near the top of the scale but not in the same field as SIG, HK, or Ruger in terms of going bang everytime.

      • “I’ve seen Glocks jam plenty. ”

        Me too. Indeed, my duty weapon was a G22, and we did in fact parctice malfunction drills because the guns did in fact occasionally malfunction.

        Caliber wars, brand wars, blah blah blah. In the absence of PROVEN design flaws (by proper engineering analysis, not fanboyism on the Internet), this stuff is a waste of time and effort.

        First Rule: Have a gun.

    • Negative. Do not count out HK. My HK has all been highly reliable and I use it in very austere, rural, professional settings. Not a fanboy, as I am actually a Glock guy. BUT, HK makes a very reliable handgun.

    • In training courses, we see pretty much every type of pistol malfunction at some point. Glocks and SIGs are very reliable. So are XDs. CZs and their clones are used all over the world – there reliability has been proven pretty well. 1911s can be very reliable, though we see a lot of malfunctions in the very expensive custom-type.

      The Glock Gen 4 is experiencing a lot of reliability problems. Most major manufacturers have had to issue recalls recently. No pistol is the perfect, never failing super ray-gun.

      Get a reliable, proven pistol that you like, and train to clear malfunctions.

      We all have our own preferences, but just because I like a certain brand does not make all other brands junk.

    • By the way, I had to tinker with my Glock. Like sending the frame back to Glock for a replacement when both rear frame rails broke off when I was shooting it. Turns out that for about a 5-year period one out of every 4 frame rails Glock buit was bent wrong and prone to break. Glock did not issue a recall. They just replace them when they break.

      This won’t keep me from trusting a Gen3 Glock, but I won’t claim they are the only pistol worth using, either. I won’t trust a Gen4.

      • “Take a number of the firearms in the field, A…”,
        “Multiply by the probable rate of failure, B…”,
        “Then multiply the result by the average out-of-court settlement, C…”, “A X B X C equal X”,
        “if X is less than the cost of a recall, we don’t do one..”
        “… Which firearm maker do you work for?”
        “A major one.”

    • No tinkering necessary with the Sig 1911; never had even one feed issue/malfunction of any kind.

  12. Ive never had a more reliable pistol than my m&p40c. 5000 rds and counting of all sorts. my glocks never did as well as it does. Accuracy isnt the greatest, but at 3 feet…

  13. “It could be that DPS hasn’t found the right ammo…”

    If you have trouble finding the right ammo, you have found the wrong gun.

    I do believe S&W makes excellent firearms and hope they can figure out the issue.

  14. A lot of guys from the LASD love their Smith M&P 9mm handguns. One of our gun guys has a .40 Cal M&P which shot very well. I was doing better with that gun than my Glock 23. He has about 2K rounds through it with 1-2 issues (I forget what kind, but neither held up the gun after tap rack bang).

    I would also be remiss if I didn’t state that our contract for Sig M400 ARs has been delayed due to reliability issues. Again, not sure exactly what. We plan on switching to M&P ARs once the change is approved.

    And their was also a lot of buzz about our Smith 4006s being unreliable after being swapped out from Smith 686 .357 revolvers. I’d say that my current duty weapon will jam perhaps once in 500 rounds, and it has roughly 8K rounds through it. My duty gun is on its second recoil spring. I’m actually hoping we’ll switch to M&P .40s, but I’ll admit that I don’t have a ton of experience with that gun. I’d also like a Glock 35 or an XDM, but that probably won’t happen.

    Hey, enough people shooting enough guns and ammo and things break, jam, need replacement, etc. There can also be quite a bit of politics involved in the police purchasing process. Without hard numbers and stats, its tough to separate fact from fiction.

    • All manufacturers have issues from time to time, companies are made up of people, and people are flawed.

      Sucks y’all have been having issues with the M400, mine runs like a champ, had one or two hick ups here and there, but nothing to get worked up over.

      However, I did throw one of those Fail Zero BCGs in it, like I do with all ARs. Makes the bolt run slicker than snot with or without lube. And, you can use the factory one as a spare.

      • Agree. I actually think it’s negligent not to put an NiB (or similar) BCG in an AR. The difference is noticeable and consistent over time.

        • I’m a big time nickel boron believer.

          I own several guns with NB coating and they’re worth the added cost just from being easier to clean. Let alone the increased durability.

        • have you guys noticed any wear from those NB coated carriers/bolts? I have heard that that stuff is VERY hard, harder than steel. In my mind, I want to believe that it wouldn’t matter because the steel in a BCG in already harder than the aluminum upper. Thoughts? I have always been interested.

          Are they MP tested?

        • Hal, I’ve never notice any abnormal wear on the rifle uppers. And, no abnormal wear on pistol frames with NB coated slides.

          I can’t tell you how many rounds I’ve cycled with the Fail Zero BCG because I don’t really count the rounds fired, but it’s a lot. I take classes and training, so its not uncommon for me to run through hundreds of round in one day. And, I don’t baby them, I get the guns hot.

          I don’t know much about the science of it, other than it’s a dry lubricity coating, nor do I know about Fail Zero’s testing practices.

          I just know, for me, they work.

        • I actually went with the WMD one. Was pissed when I got it cause it had a flat matte finish. Didn’t realize there was a matte nickel boron coating, thought I got screwed. Seems to work fine, easy to clean though I need to get a brass scraper for the bolt, some carbon sticks that won’t quite wipe off.

    • Someone else in the thread mentioned LASD going over the the S&W’s, I have an immediate family member who is a deputy that still has her Beretta. Were the S&W’s just switched over for patrol or did she get the choice and just stick with the 92?

  15. Malfunctions during the recruit firearms course…..so they’re beater guns…..just brilliant.

    • It really does seem a bit like saying “this gun has issues because it wouldn’t fire after being left in swamp mud for a week.”

  16. I have to laugh when stories like this get posted, and immediately 9/10 comments are “this is why I would never use xxxx gun. glad I use xxxx gun instead” or “I own xxxx gun and have had 0 issues in 10 billion rounds fired”.

    We got absolutely zero details about the type of malfunction, how many of them there actually were, and if the guns had been properly maintained/serviced. For all we know they had a class of 15 limp wristers who would have fared similarly with glocks, fns, or any other polymer framed pistol.

    • lol. Guilty as charged. I own an MP40 VTAC and have thousands of rounds through it without even a hiccup. We have zero details on the ‘unacceptable malfunctions’, yet lots of folks seem to throw SW MP under the bus immediately and proudly peacock their Glock, Sig, etc (including the OP, Nick). We’re all a bunch of pimps (or else just trying to justify our particular purchases and preferences, unconsciously or otherwise).

    • I agree. The fact of the matter is that most modern pistols are, statistically speaking, quite reliable. Now, what reliability is is truly in the eye of the beholder. To some, 1 malfunction in 1,000,000 rounds equals unreliable. It may not be reasonable, but that is how they feel. To others, 1 malfunction in 500 is reliable. It’s all very subjective.

      The sad reality is that very few people have the level of perspective necessary to properly judge whether a weapon system is collectively reliable or not. Their experience is wrapped around their individual gun and those of their associates. For example, let us say that gun x is generally reliable over 1,000,000 guns produced and has an average failure rate of 1 malfunction every 2500 rounds. Now let’s say Paul Bunion buys a gun x and it is an unrelaible example. Paul Bunion will likely have a negative opinion of gun x, even though gun x is generally a reliable design. The same could be said about a police academy class of paul bunions who got a bad batch that had the same types of flaws. To that class of 50 cadets, gun x sucks, even though over the course of 1,000,000 guns gun x is very reliable.

      It would be interesting for TTAG to do a study amongst its readers relating to reliability. Each contributor would be required to perform the test under a set of controls, and video each test to ensure authenticity. That would be the only semi-reliable way to collect data from consumers and even then there would probably be fakers.

  18. This sounds like ir may be a tempest in a teapot. I’ve had no FTF/FTE issues with my M&P9 after 500-600 rounds. Then again, I’ve never had FTF/FTE issues with my Walther PPS or my Glock 19 either. Truth be told, I’ve only fired 350 rounds from my G19 so far. If only the sights were sturdier…
    Perhaps I’ll get new sights this payday.

    • If you’re not worried about tritium you can pick up the Defoor Tactical sights from Ameriglo. $48 and they actually have the correct rear sight width for a Glock 19.

      It sounds silly but most sights that work great on a Glock 17 are just a smidge too wide in the front and a smidge too narrow in the rear when used on a Glock 19. Offenders include Glock (ironic), Meprolight and Trijicon. The dimensions leave you with very little-to-no “light bars” on either side of the front sight which in turn makes them slow. It’s a problem of ratios.

      Companies which resolved this issue include: Defoor tactical (Ameriglo), Ameriglo (pro-operator sights are good), Warren tactical, 10-8 and Heinie to name a few. As previously stated your cheapest option is the Defoor sights. They are ultra durable and cheap. I think you’ll enjoy your Glock 19 a lot more with some better sights. Or, if you really love Glock’s sights they sell “ball in a box” steel sights which are exactly what you have but obviously a lot tougher. Those are also pretty cheap but suffer from the same front-to-rear ratio problem I just described.

  19. It doesn’t seem likely that the fault here lies with S&W’s M&Ps; If a bunch of trainees have ‘issues’ with a new pistol, it may have nothing to do with the pistol and everything to do with the trainees. New shooters, especially those hired on the ‘Are you female? A minority? Rather dim? A dim, minority female?’ plan of modern police hiring practices, tend to experience more ‘issues’ than an experienced shooter would under the same circumstances. I find that, during a training class, the sheer number of rounds fired works against reliability–everything gets dirty and hot, including the shooters but especially the pistols, nobody thinks to lubricate anything (including the shooters), and a relatively tight, new gun run dirty, hot, and dry tends to malfunction. Clean, cool, and lubricated properly, that same gun should work just FINE. I ASS-sume that S&W’s glock, like any other Glock, will take a lot of abuse, but eventually it’s going to fight back and stop working. ‘Malfunctions’, if that is truly what is happening, are nearly always the fault of the shooter in some way, not the gun.

    Naturally, there wouldn’t have been these problems with REAL Glocks. (Sorry, couldn’t resist.)

  20. I own an M&P in 9mm, 5″ barrel model. INITIALLY during the first 40-50 rounds it didn’t care for training reloads–several failures to eject. It was not due to limp wristing. It loved full power factory FMJ. The hotter the better. After the pistol was broken in and properly lubed, there were no subsequent issues.

    More info would be helpful in understanding what the issue(s) might have been. The exact nature of the failures, the models in question and the ammo used.

  21. NC Highway patrol did the same thing last year, complaints about their M&Ps in 357 SIG not extracting. Of course when they bought the M&Ps in 2009 they were bragging how reliable they were gonna be, ditching the SIGs they had then for the S&Ws.

    Police depts nationwide are changing guns more than their underwear because they aint paying for them, so why not try em all.

  23. Hah! This is why I carry my Glock brand AK-15 with 30 caliber magazine clips that can empty in half a second.

    • You should be careful about emptying those 30-caliber magazine clips for your AK-15 in half a second; When those are all used up, there aren’t going to BE any more because of the Assault Weapon High-Capacity Magazine Clip Ban. When that happens, all you’ll be able to get to take to the nearest school or mall is a five-shot Webley-Vickers .50-80.

      • Thanks to 3D printing they’ll never be all used up. Which is why all 3D printers must be banned immediately!

      • Anyway, magazines are ammunition, when you use them up they are gone. A Colorado legislator said so, so I know it’s true.

        • I still haven’t found any high-capacity bullet magazine clips for my Glock 7; The ones that came with it were already empty–I guess it was a used gun. The ones I see in the stores are already empty, too!

        • I think Colorado legislators come from the pool of folks who fail the police exam–on the low side. At least the ones with “D” after their names.

      • No, that would not be sporting. If you really, truly must kill someone at 300 feet with just your left hand because your right arm is in a sling, the W-V .50-80 is the gun for you. For short-range work, as when your victim is standing in front of a wooden fence near a ravine, at night, with his coat buttoned up, use a Webley-Fosbery .45. Right through the pump. Too bad they don’t make those any more.

        Or a Gabbett-Fairfax Mars. The BIG one.

  24. I ran 100,000,000 rounds through my m&p/glock/xd/1911/hk/ruger/sig and it still looks brand new.

    It’s all BS. Glock, HK, SIG, S&W all make excellent pistols suited for duty. I don’t know why people run the steel guns for CCW but for duty it all equals out as duty holsters easily distribute the weight and concealment is not an issue.

    If you add up the general consensus of the firearms community and almost every serious shooter, Glock seems to reign supreme on the reliability front. SIG and SW are probably second and third, with HK bringing up the back, because it is so well made and the tolerances so tight, that unless you clean your weapon constantly, it’s gonna get gummed up easier.

    Personally? Who cares? Your weapon is going to fail. It IS GOING to fail. Not if, when. Practice malfunction drills or carry a backup and off you go.

    • A man with a plane. Yes even a car engine has to be cleaned oiled and cared for to last. Well done trouper. A anvil would not last under a industrial grinder.The slide would get so loose, barrel bushing and along with outher parts. WELL it mite jump out of your hand. Remember the movey man on fire. He fired his gun at his self. Did not fire. Just a movie of course. I have never seen a center fire round , factory loaded not go off. I have seen some reloads not fire. Becouse of improper head speaceing. U have some good guns. Be Safe.

  26. Shitty comparrison I know, but I have an M&P 22(Pistol) and a Sig Mosquito (.22 as well) and the S&W has had zero failures through all kinds of ammo and the Sig will only run on good hyper velocity or good (think CCI) high velocity ammo. Even changed the springs on the Sig and it was still picky. Every gun is only going to be as good as they are maintained and practiced with.

    Before you ask I get most of the .22 off of gunbot. It is still cheaper than centerfire ammo even though it is inflated.

    • Fun fact. The Mosquito and M&P22 are made by the same company, Umarex. I have fired both. The Mosquito was terrible in all ways and the M&P22 ran great. Rented from the same range and so I am familiar with what kind of maintenance and ammo both are exposed to. I couldn’t find one reason why I would ever choose the Mosquito over the M&P22, but find it odd how they are made by the same manufacturer but are worlds apart in quality.

      Umarex also makes the Walther P22. Have not tried it yet but its reputation is about the same as the Mosquito from what I’ve heard.

      Still, not a decent comparison to the full-size P226 vs. M&P.

      • The Mosquito owner’s manual says to use nothing less than MiniMags to get reliable cycling. After break-in, my Mosquito was pretty reliable, rarely jamming–but it is hard to hit the broad side of a barn with it. And since it has every safety known to man other than a grip safety, it can be a pain in the rear, and is not appropriate for just that reason for newbies–too much to learn just to get the thing to fire. Plus it has a huge honkin’ grip that is too large for medium or small hands. The DA/SA trigger is the pits–I’m not sure I can even pull the trigger in DA mode. It hasn’t been fired in a couple of years.

  27. 3 M&P9’s here (compact, full, and Pro5″) I have about 9k combined rounds through them. Only one failure to feed out of those and it was the round that was the problem. It was a reload from USA Ammo. Bullet was set just a little too far into the case. Nose dived trying to feed and locked the gun up. Took a bit of work to get it unlocked, but other than that, nothing. I’ve run reloads (mostly USA Ammo, but also somoe Atlanta Arms), Speer Lawman, PMC Bronze, Winchester White Box, CCI Blazer aluminum case, Winchester PDX, Speer Gold Dots and a bunch more. Everything seems to go bang.

  28. Ironically my first Glock, a gen 2 g17, gave me a FTF and a FTE on the 2nd and 3rd shots respectively. My G30 also gave me a few problems. (Well more than a few but those were due to a faulty mag). Both worked out and restore my glock faith. My m&p40 on the other hand has never let me down since day 1. And oddly enough on my hip right now is my Sig 229. Would I buy another glock, hell yes….would I buy another M&p, hell yeah. Would I buy another Sig…plan on it. I’ve read complaints on the Sig 516, again zero issues with mine or my buddy’s (bought same day from same shop). Could it be user error or possibly not broken in fully? Jake made a great point…any weapon can and eventually will fail! Now 8 jams per mag per 10mags a day…well that’s a serious problem. Who wants to chance it…its your life right? You should still be prepared for when things don’t go right…esp if training recruits. If the gun runs perfect through training what happens when an issue arises in the field. Just my 1/2 cent…yep not even worth 2.

    And BTW, I have never seen a non glock brand glock…(reminds me of a guy that wanted to show me his new glock….dude glock is spelled G L O C K….not LORCIN. I laughed but he was pissed) I’m sure he got over it

  29. It’s interesting to me how many people know the exact round count they have through a particular firearm. It seems to me like either an embellishment, wild ass guess, or some kind of gun OCD. Unless you’re specially gathering data for a gun review or gun trails of some sort.

    If the gun works I keep it, if it doesn’t, I get rid of it. But, couldn’t even tell you how many rounds my guns have through them, especially since most were used when I got them.

    Maybe I can get a round odometer put on the gun or something.

    • I keep round count records on a small notepad in my range bag and transfer the data over to a spreadsheet after I’m done. Why? I honestly don’t know. I just make spreadhseets for everything.

      • Me, as well. I also score all of my targets and enter the data into a spreadsheet. It is amazing that I managed to find a wife.

      • It’s probably good that I never thought of that. I would have put that into a MySQL database, written an app joining a table with accuracy results, breaking down percentage of shots per range visit, its relation to results, etc.

    • I log every single round fired through my bolt gun. There are several reasons for this, which includes (but is not limited to) just keeping track for barrel wear.

      Hand guns – not so much. But, I do have an “idea,” rough as it might be, about how many rounds I’ve shot through my 9mm because I handload and can look at supplies on hand, purchased over time, etc.

      At one point in the mid-90’s we (my wife and I together) were shooting about 1000 rounds (total, all guns) per week.

    • When you reload, you get a bit anal about keeping track of the number of rounds fired, so you know how many times particular cases can be reloaded.

      It’s pretty easy after that to know how many rounds have been fired from the firearm.

  30. I’d rather be carrying a Sig anyways if given the choice. That’s all the local police and sheriffs around here carry but in .40 S&W and all of the ones I know personally speak very highly of them. I’ve never seen a DPS trooper here in Tx with anything but a Sig.

    • The Sig has been a fixture in Texas law enforcement for a long time. I believe that institutional inertia is part of the reason for their quickness to blame the new-fangled plastic pistol rather than the trainees.

  31. There are no details of the nature of the problem so we are left to guess, but what first comes to mind is that DPS may have failed in their due diligence of testing the equipment and ammo combination before introducing it to recruits in training. It also may be that they failed to involve the manufacturer early enough to deal with the problem before it got to this point.

    I hope you are able to follow up on the details of the problem.

    On the other hand, I have been told by city police officers that the M&P 9s that they have been issued are more prone to corrosion than either the Glocks they are replacing or privately owned M&P Shields. Strange.

  32. RSO here. I’ve seen plenty of FTFs and FTEs with Glocks and to a lesser extent, M&Ps (which could be due to the fact that the Glocks are shot more). It’s almost always a grip issue, and plenty of police officers do the limp-wristing thing. I personally own an M&P 9 and havent had any malfs with it over the course of around 500 rounds. For what that’s worth….

  33. Well finally someone else has noticed the pieaces of SHIT S&W is putting out for us, the buying public! I have bought 3 M&Ps in the last 2 years. 2 of the 3 where complete SHIT! I bought a 9mm Shield directly from the S&W reps at Shoot Straight, Clearwater. During S&Ws “neet your customer day” Waited in the rain for over 2 hours to buy this handgun. Got inside, asked the S&W guys all set up by the front door, do you have any Shields left? He asked, what caliber, I replyed 9mm. He then dug threw a bunch of boxes, and pulled out my Shield 9mm. I didn’t even get a chance to look it over to check out the quality, but to be honest I was in a hury, and figured it would be ok, WRONG! Never got to open the box till they gave me my credit card and CCW, and ID back. I finally opened the box just to make sure serial nums matched receipt. Got home ready to clean my new $500 dollar purchase, and that’s when I noticed the front sight was leaning 3 degrees left in the dovetail. The sights base plate that goes into the dovetail slot was lower by 3, 1000ths of an inch on the left side of the front blade, and level with the top of the slide on the right of the front blade. Being a gunsmith for over 15 years I realized that there was an issue. So at the first shooting, breakin, the gun shot 2 inchs right at 21 feet. This because I was making the front sight level, which moved the bore axis over to the right. By round 200, the painted dot on the front sight fell out as well. So I called S&W to get a repair done, and address the 3 degree slanted front dovetail cut. I received the TERD SHIELD back with a new front nightsite, which the gun didn’t have to start out with. BUT, still a crooked sight!
    That’s when all hell started with the jack ass’s at S&W! They told me that yes the front dovetail is 3, 1000ths out. And that was within specs, so your stuck with it PERIOD! I BITCHED up the whole line of managers at SMITH, explaining that I am a disabled combat vet, and a customer of SMITH for over 25 years, and have never bin treated so badly by a gun manufacturer in my life! Oh it gets better. So after 2 months of back and fourth, I asked how much for ME TO PURCHASE A NEW SLIDE OUT OF MY OWN POCKET? That’s when their lead customer service manager told me “every new shield slides are going on new guns, to NEW customers, and I couldn’t have one”. That’s when I went ape shit, and told him then you are keeping this piece of SHIT firearm!

    I also purchased a 9c M&P with no problems 2 years earlier. But my M&P 15-22 was shit right out the box, barrel pointed left, so bad in fact, that with the sight adjusted all the way right it still shot 3 to 4 inchs left at 25 feet! Sent it back, and they swapped the whole upper out with a new one. BUT, they didn’t repackage my rifle with the cardboard protective upper and lower inserts in the box. Just threw the brand new gun in there with a magazine and gun lock that destroyed mt barrels finish. Needless to say I removed the barrel and recoated the barrel myself, weather than let their so called GUN TECHS screw this one up any more!
    ASSHOLE COMPANY THAT BUILDS SHIT GUNS FOR THE NEW GUN OWNER, THAT THEY FIGURE WONT KNOW ANY BETTER, WHILE LEAVING THE OLDER GUN OWNER CROWD THAT KEPT THEM IN BUISNESS FOR AT LEAST THE LAST 100 YEARS! I TOLD YOU SMITH, YOU WOULD REGRET PISSING ME AND THE PUBLIC OFF WITH YOUR NEW AND IMPROVED SHIT PISTOLS AND RIFLES! I love to shoot and own quality rifles and pistols, but don’t sell shit to the gun community and expect us to take a big bite! Could not have happened to a better company!

    • I’m getting the sense going ape shit is a well-honed skill of yours.

      Try GLOCK next time, David 🙂

    • All these issues with things pointing left, I honestly think you are cross-eyed and your eyes are the problem.

  34. I’m curious as to what types of malfunctions they were getting. If it will not function with “self defense grade” ammunition then I wouldn’t want it either.

  35. There pistols had issues chambering non poly tipped hollow points such as the flying ashtray type hollow points. So bad in fact, a simple tap, rack wouldn’t cure the malfunction. You had to strip the mag out of the mag well by ripping it free. GREAT IN THE MIDDLE OF TRYING TO SAVE YOUR ASS, and or PARTNER, or FAMILY!! When compared to the Glock by Guns & Ammo TV, all they could say comparing the 2 was the Glock was of higher quality! There you go!

  36. Never owned a Glock, do have SW pro series 3″ 1911, piece of junk right of the box. Already been back to smith once, still has failure to eject issues, will send it back again and then sell it. On the other hand, was at range with a very experienced shooter who at time owned .40 Glock, not sure exact model, and the gun fired in his hand without him touching the trigger. Spooked him enough to switch carry pistol.

    • Most likely he had altered the trigger to a Ghost and not got the install correct. But without seeing the gun who knows. Over all quality has dropped alot all across the board! Gun makers are trying to catch up. Running their CNC machines way past the hours to resurface axis bits causing runout, and all kinds of fit problems. MORE HURRY UP AND GET IT OUT THE DOOR TO SCREW THERE EVER GROWING NEW GUN OWNER CUSTOMER BASE, LEAVING QUALITY TO THE WIND!!

    • Must have been a Model 7. That’s the only Glock I know of that can fire in your hand without anyone touching the trigger. A shame, really–they’re the ones that are invisible to airport X-rays and metal detectors. I got one in 7mm Nambu–shot it over a million rounds without cleaning it, too. Had to stop using it when I ran out of loaded magazine clips.

  37. IF THE COLT IS GOOD ENOUGH FOR THE MARINES, IT SHOULD BE GOOD ENOUGH FOR THE TEXAS DPS.

    COLT 1911 GOVERNMENT MODEL, NEVER LEAVE HOME WITHOUT IT.

    COLT

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEIvu_aWccY

    http://www.coltsmfg.com/Catalog/ColtPistols/Colt1991%C2%AESeries.aspx

    http://www.coltsmfg.com/Catalog/ColtPistols/ColtMarinePistol.aspx

    can’t have too many of these either ;

    CHIP MCCORMICK CUSTOM, LLCtm .45 Power Mag 10rd

    http://www.chipmccormickmags.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=15150

    never forget !

    Suzanna Gratia Hupp explains meaning of 2nd Amendment!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1u0Byq5Qis

    kind regards,
    terry

    • Kind of went a little click crazy on the links there, Terry.

      You might want to reel it back a bit next time.

      • Why? Did he provide you with too much info, then make you click on it? This place talks about nanny state restrictions, etc, then tries to tell others what to do.

  39. Yeah, call Smith and see how long it takes to even get one of their asshat customer service pricks on the phone! More than 3 different times calling Smith I waited over an hour and 10 mins to speak to someone! And was talked to like I was the dirtball for buying their SHIT FIREARMS! I even recorded the last 6 phone conversations, just in case I was going to have to sue there ass’s! If any high ups at Smith are actually interested in hearing these to rectifie their horrible customer service or manufacturing process’s, just let me know RIGHT HERE! Ill post all their belittling and down right RUDE behavior for all of us, it will in fact turn your stomach to what and how they spoke to me, when I was wounded 3 times in combat so they have the rights to sell they SHIT GUNS!!!

  40. I would also be interested in learning the exact problems they were experiencing. Our academy guns are M&P 9’s that have been in use for the last 3 years after wearing out the 15 year old Beretta 92’s. This academy is a general training academy so the guns stay there and used in each class. We have 2 day and 2 night classes each year plus various other uses for those guns. By now, each of them have fired close to 8 thousand rounds with no general pattern of failure. As would be expected, minor issues arise with individual guns, i.e., broken slide stop, weak mag release button spring, sight drifting, etc., occur but no general pattern on any one problem and no function issues at all. Various brands of ammo have been used during that time, depending on what’s on contract and what’s available and we’ve experienced no issues based on a particular type of ammo.

  41. The key to your statement is “3 years ago bought” The new guns coming off their production line are not the same guns they built 3, or even 2 years ago. They have eliminated alot of there checks and balances to up production! So a problem that would have bin caught right away, slips on by, till they have a whole run of incorrectly built firearms. They need to slow back down to a normal production rate, or add more people and machinery. But that effects their bottom line, and less face it, that’s all they care about anymore…AND HECK YEAH IM MAD, I HAVE BIN A SMITH CUSTEMER FOR 25 F IN YEARS, AND WAS TREATED LIKE AN ASSHOLE, THANK YOU SMITH & WESSON!!

  42. I own a P228 and an M&P9. The P228 was my first gun and that is going nowhere. I do find it easier and more comfortable to shoot the M&P. I have put 2,000+ rounds through the M&P. The only issue I had was some extraction failures near 400 rounds, but I think that is because I did not properly clean the extractor after the first 200 rounds. That M&P was made in 2007. I have since bought another made in late 2013/early 2014 and have not yet taken it to the range.

  43. Im glad im no Officer in Texas DPS. I never carry one of those SIG piece of crap! I carry a good M-92FS or a Glock series any day over one of them

  44. Ya’ll are a buncha Sig and Glock pimps… including you, Nick!

    One little babble about undescribed ‘unacceptable malfunctions’ and everyone breaks out their peacock feathers.

    Pimps! 🙂

  46. Hey VALLYGIRL, I can tell just by your short statement that you have NO real time experience with building of firearms! Not that your opinion isn’t important. But that’s not what any of us our talking about! No Glock vs. M&P, just talking about the shit guns being produced lately! In fact, Glock has had a couple few duds lately. And Sig, please, they have more discontinued pistols listed on there site then S&W, and Glock have ever had together!

    • lol. Fixating on me as the object of your anger I see, David? 🙂

      No, I don’t build firearms. But I do own em and shoot em. Glocks, Sigs, SW’s, FN, CZ, SA, etc.

      Never had an issue with my MP 40 VTAC. Maybe I just got lucky. Maybe you just didn’t. Maybe the .40 doesn’t have the same issues that 9 does. Hard to say. Got someone all in a fluff about CAI the other night too, because I got one with canted sights and he didn’t.

      and yeah, Sig has MORE than it’s share of issues, especially with their 556 series rifles.

      and yeah, I got burned bad by SW customer service once too. I was pissssed.

      So I can dig it. Just don’t pop a blood vessel over there bro. We’ve all been burned at some point.

  47. Sorry Paul, I have had it lately with crap guns being pushed off on the new shooting community! I run a gun shop here in FL, and have never had more returns for shit made guns than in the last 2 years. And I mean FTE, to FTF, to the entire trigger assemblies breaking. And im talking GLOCK, SMITH, SIG, KIMBER, and even Colt. Just tired of the JUNK! What do you want us as sellers and buyers, and gun store owners to do???? Just close up?? Or BITCH AS LOUD AS POSSIBLE SO THEY WILL FIX THE ISSUES!

  48. Everybody has to be different, don’t they.

    First, the Sig 226 has to be the most user hostile handgun there is if you happen to be left handed.
    Second, while the traditional double action has been around for a while, there is a reason that nobody uses them anymore. People don’t shoot them well.

    I have owned two M&Ps. One a 9mm and the other a .45. Both have run flawlessly, although each has not got more than 1K rounds through it.

    So here it goes . . Why not a Glock? Lets face it, they are reliable, and they shoot reasonably well. Once a shooter has learned to work the reset, they have essentially a double or single action gun at their disposal depending on how they use the trigger.

    Here I do have some experience. I’ve owned and used over a dozen glocks. I currently have several, all in 9mm. The full sized 9mm Glock is one of the easiest firearms to shoot on this planet. This is particularly true of the 34. The trigger in standard 5.5# configuration can be shot fast, it can be shot slow, and it just runs and runs. My wife prefers the G34 to any other handgun.

    When the Gen4 came out, she wrapped her hand around one and had to have it. This meant I had to sell my Gen3 G34. I felt a bit of guilt.

    This gun had been used by me in IDPA for almost 10 years. It has over 35,000 rounds through it. In that time it has NEVER EVER failed to fire, eject, and feed a piece of factory ammunition. NEVER. Thats weak hand, strong hand, Righside up, lying on my side, whatever. Its always gone bang when I squeezed the trigger. If most glocks run half as well as my 34, then the decision should be a no-brainer.

    Don

    please lets not get into 1911s. I own, shoot, and love my 1911s. But when you consider that most cops aren’t “gun guys” the glock becomes the clear choice.

    • re: Glock being the “clear choice” for police, have a read through this article from 1998 in the Washington Post about the Glock and their unintended/negligent discharges:

      http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/longterm/dcpolice/deadlyforce/police4page1.htm

      And let’s stipulate, for the record, that there are plenty of other metro PD’s with the same negligence in training, the same level of officer gun handling (ie, deficient and incompetent) with Glocks. NYPD’s mis-handling of guns is the stuff of legend. LAPD now looks like a bunch of trigger-happy idiots in the last year. Let’s just agree that the majority of cops are barely able to suss out which end of the gun is the dangerous end, and they’re far too content to spray rounds hither and yon, with consequences paid for by the taxpayers.

      Now… how about we think real hard about the taxpayer’s perspective on this? Is the Glock the best tool for the job? I think not. I agree with you that most cops are not “gun guys” (or gals). So, in light of that, I think we should go back to S&W Model 10’s for cops. When the police give us taxpayers evidence that they can really handle those, maybe we’ll give them nicer revolvers than Model 10’s.

  49. I mean if we don’t say “NOPE NO MORE SHIT FIREARMS, SHIT FIREARMS ARE ALL WILL GET”. And thank you for worrying about my heart. But if 5 tours with the 82nd Airborne didn’t kill me, I doubt very seriously this will. LOL

  50. I can agree, but the reason cops use Glock, is there easy to train new shooters to use. And training is very expensive an time consuming. Its much easyer to train a new shooter to use a Glock then an 1911, especially a model 70 1911. But if the gun doesn’t work, it doesn’t work, your dead anyway! This is not a pissing contest on who makes the best pistol. This is an outrage to gun makers, to stop pumping out shit guns, before someone gets killed by their saving a buck or two!

    • Indeed. I’ve been saying for years that US gun buyers should be outraged at the quality of product they’re being given in the market.

      Sadly, too many modern gun buyers have no idea of the level of quality that used to be available to gun buyers in the US.

      Now, everyone is in a race to the bottom of the barrel, with a few exceptions of those outfits who are willing to charge what it takes to achieve a good product. Sadly, too many gun buyers are deluded as to what their dollar is worth today that they think the quality gun makers who charge what their high quality products actually cost to make are ripping off the public.

  52. PPGMD and John, both cases could be correct, personally I like the ergonomics of the M&P series, but have yet to shoot one.

  53. They are definitely easier to train with, and no scary cocked and locked hammer.

    But its also pretty impressive that this gun can work so well for the least common denominator, but still perform so well in the hands of a skilled shooter.

    I have a friend who is a pretty skilled shooter. He’s pretty much a Glock and 1911 biggot. Everything else is crap in his mind. He’s just come to the conclusion that with a new custom trigger in his 34, he shoots it faster than his 9mm 1911. He thinks the low bore axis and the flex in the lower more than make up for the decreased weight in the Glock in shot to shot speed.

    One thing that can’t be argued is the difference in maintenance requirements. I can disassemble a glock for cleaning in 10 seconds. The 1911, maybe 30 seconds.

    But I can disassemble a glock for detailed cleaning in 2 minutes. Figure 15 minutes for the 1911.
    Reassembly the times for the Glock stay the same, while the times for the 1911 double.

    Don

  54. Glocks are fine until you chamber them in .40 and try to put a light on them. Our PD had enough with Glock and thier constant excuses and finger pointing.

    • Samson, you must be Saint Pete PD. We sent 700 G22 in 40 S&W Gen 4 back to the factory for G21 Gen 3s, because once you installed the weapon light, it made the frame to stiff to cycle. Another…R&D on the Police and general public, just like the Gen 4 G19. No more testing before release, will just release the untested gun, and fix the problems as they occur. BULLSHIT. Until someone dies because a problem occurs in the worst time possible. Like 3am when your patrol unit is responding to an armed home invasion!

  55. Hmpf.

    Awhile back, TTAG picked up a piece by some name-brand trainer/shooter who was saying that there’s no reason to carry or use a 1911, they were so unreliable. I vented my spleen in a comment (which RF turned into a stand-alone post) on how the US Army qualified the 1911 about 100+ years ago with a 6,000 round firing test, which is a damn sight more than many semi-auto pistols get for verification of function or acceptance today.

    After my splenetic defense of 1911’s, some black cheez-whiz aficionados got their tactical thong underwear in a sheep shank knot and got all huffy about their cheez-whiz pistols.

    So now we’re seeing that maybe cheez-whiz pistols have problems too.

    Wow. I’d never have thunk it. Neither would any other gunsmith, right? I mean, all of us gunsmiths sit here by the phone all day, waiting for it to ring, with heavy hearts and tears in our eyes, because nothing goes wrong with modern guns any more. All this plastic makes for dull conversations at the range these days… to hear the cheez-whiz fanbois, most of my life is now “Hey, Gunsmith, I used to have problems with my guns, but I sold them all and bought (insert name of plastic pistol here) and now I don’t need to darken your door again! So long, Old Fart, you’re outta my life forever! Nyah, nyah, nyah!”

    Oddly enough, that’s not how things are working out. Hence my rant about the assertions that 1911’s are “so unreliable” that you’d best not bet your life on them. All guns have problems. All semi-autos get pissy and whiny when you feed them out-of-spec ammo. All semi-autos are sensitive to magazine malfunctions and damage to the feed lips. On and on and on.

    This is why you’re taught to never depend upon mechanical safety mechanisms as a substitute for the Four Laws of Gun Handling.

    There’s a reason why, boys and girls, the gun in the nightstand on my side of the bed is a revolver. It doesn’t see lots of range time, but it is well maintained and if (God forbid) I have to use it in an in-home social engagement, I don’t need to think about “tap-rack-bang” or any other such nonsense. Just keep pulling the trigger, and it does what revolvers have done for a longer time than semi-autos have: launch bullets downrange. No external safety, no fiddling, no mucking about. Six big-assed pieces of lead launched by a .45 Colt cartridge lead go downrange in a couple of seconds.

    All guns, including those made by a certain company that uses the word “Perfection,” have issues from time to time. I know this for a fact because I own two of these “Perfect” semi-autos… and I have a different definition of the word “perfection” than the maker of the pistols. My response to “Perfection” is straight out of a chick-flick:

    “You keep using that word. I don’t think that means what you think it means.”

    • Very funny Gunsmith, Glock has actually stoped using the word Perfection in there recent adds! I remember in 1985 Glock Perfection was on all there stickers and gear. Not now, I guess claiming Perfection nowa days is in itself, a big lie for Glock. I own 2 Gen 1’s and a few Gen 2’s, have never had any problems, and I used them as rental guns at our range with lead reloads! I lost count on the amount of rounds that went threw them at the 10000 round mark. Just had to replace the mags, they wouldn’t keep the slide back after last round fired anymore. Wore the mags out! But the G36 is got all kinds of mag problems. Not to mention last competition I was at, KC’s Gen 4 G34 went down so bad he had to withdraw from the shooting event, and he’s Glock top team member!

    • Have you tried a CZ?

      They are pretty good IMO.

      Regarding 1911s: People expect a target gun built exclusively for accuracy to work like a combat piece. Those old milsurp 1911s or any non-target model works well from what I have seen.

      • I am still unimpressed with DPS getting into this situation. They need to get some people in there who actually test things properly.

        From what I have heard, S&W is all but giving away their handguns to get departments using Glocks to change. That does not mean they are bad handguns, although they have their detractors, particularly among those who are happy with their Glocks. Most departments are apparently specifying their Smiths without the short reset trigger. While most experienced shooters, especially 1911 shooters, prefer the short reset trigger, we should remember that the majority of police recruits have little, if any, experience with firearms prior to entering training and will have limited time and ammo available for proficiency training thereafter. The departments are justifiably concerned about their personnel firing under stress when they may not intend to do so. This is compounded when transitioning from a long stroke trigger system like the Glock’s.

        I also wonder about S&W’s failure to have better communication with DPS during the transition. I would have expected them to do a good bit of “hand holding” to make sure things went smoothly and that the company provided whatever support was needed. Not only is DPS an important customer in terms of sales, but they at least used to be an opinion leader. Now S&W has a black eye whether it was their fault or not and has lost the account.

        I’ve not had an opportunity to fire the CZ, but have handled them and I think they will fit a variety of hand sizes and point well. I can’t comment on their reliability. I have some Glocks and like them for what they are even though I really don’t care for them as a range gun. They are just a reliable reliable tool. I still like my compact 1911, but it is heavy…maybe I need an aluminum frame.

        • The problem basically is that S&W screwed the pooch on this one. They have NO CUSTOMER SUPPORT! Where you call to talk to CS, isn’t even where they repair, and build the guns. So the right hand doesn’t know what the left hands doing! Like in my case with the 9mm Shield TURD I ended up with. On the one side theres me with over 15 years gunsmithing experience talking to a CS rep that hasn’t ever even seen the gun with the issues! On there side you have a non experienced CS rep telling you your pistols in spec, just going off some gun tech that has a couple of classes on how to assemble their stage of the pistols build. You cant talk to a gunsmith directly handling your repair. Big gun companies have gone this route to save paying big bucks for a small number of SMITHS, and replacing them with many GUN TECHS, r assemblers. This causes big problems when the company amps up the production line! By these techs not having the experience to recognize a poorly made part that they are using to assemble there stage in the building process. A gunsmith would recognize the out of spec part, and replace it or tweak it back in shape for proper function. So your getting parts stamped out on machines that are running 24/7, that must be shut down periodically for recalibration. This is being skipped, so that after time the stamping plates need to be resurfaced for nice clean parts. Since this isn’t being done on the scheduled intervals, parts become rough, out of spec, and down right warped! Then you have some girl or guy that doesn’t see the parts problem, or doesn’t care, or has been told by management “that will work, just get it out the door”. And wallah, a TERD PISTOL IS BORN!!! Gaston Glock started this whole mass production style of gun building. However, when Gaston was alive he strived to make sure that every part his company made was almost perfect, hints the old GLOCK PERFECTION add. The only way this style of assembly works is if the parts are all very close in spec. When Gaston Glock died, Glock changed, and eliminated a lot of there checks and safty testing, which leads us to todays mass production SHIT BUILT GUNS!!! And everyone is doing this half assed production now. SIG,KIMBER,GLOCK, and yes Smith!
          So this causes in some cases a total run of BAD, POORLY made firearms. Then they start getting returns, once they get so many back from one run, they will issue a recall. Gee THANKS, had you just trained your people better, slowed down production, and recalibrated your CNC machinery at every scheduled time, you would eliminate 90% of the trash your building to dump on the American people. But that would mean less PROFIT. And that’s really the bottom line now ah days. That’s why customer service is shit these days, or they blame you for buying shit ammo, or limp wrist shooting. Its like the CS rep has a list of excuses they go down, before they insult your experience, and you either dump the pistol, or JUST GO AWAY!! Isnt that right S&W!!!!!! People are starting to notice the shit these companies are dumping in are laps, and these companies can blow off the every day shooter, but when they do it to a large police agency, SHIT HITS THE FAN, as we’ve seen here in this blog!! So reap the benefits why you can big gun companies, but the new gun owners are starting to pick up on your half assed tactics, and soon you wont be able to give away your shit guns! Very much like what S&W is experiencing now!

          • David, I have no inside knowledge of what is going on at Smith. You may very well be correct about them cranking out parts and not maintaining the equipment or their QC. The successful use of non-gunsmith assembly techs is dependent upon a supply of quality parts held to specific standards as all they are expected to know is how to assemble the parts and perform a brief post assembly function check. Presumably there is a test firing prior to packaging for shipment.

            If that is the case,someone at the top at Smith had better act rapidly and aggressively to set things straight. While I am in no way questioning your personal experience, it is difficult to believe that Smith does not have better support for their major departmental customers. I am beginning to think that Smith may have withdrawn the entire shipment to DPS and covered it with an NDA which would explain why there is so little information. Eventually something will leak out even though DPS undoubtedly also wants to keep it quiet because they dropped the ball too.

            Are you still fighting with Smith?

        • I have had flawless reliability with CZs. Don’t mind trusting my life to them, though this is the steel-frame models I haven’t tried the plastic ones.

          @david:

          Gaston Glock isn’t dead. Also you should maybe try using paraghraphs? It was a bit hard to read but I agree with you, just like Dyspeptic Gunsmith said. The problem lies in companies making stuff cheaper and cheaper, taking no pride and consideration of long-term quality in their work.

          • If your M&P broke a firing pin on the first 1 or 2 dry fires I would seriously think about what your life is worth? I have broke firing pins in everything from Browning M2A1 heavy machine guns to 22 rimfires, and yes have had some not hardened right snap pretty quickly. But a self defense handgun needs to have quality metals, alloys, and polymers used to make the parts, I mean who wants a gun that every couple hundred rounds you need to swap firing pins.
            That’s like Sig when they shipped the first part of a huge Dutch Police order of there new at the time P250’s. When the Dutch weapon inspectors opened the crates and prepared to test fire the guns, multipal weapons went click, no bang. After careful exam they noticed a large number of the P250’s were missing their firing pins completely. Needless to say they canceled their order, and returned the weapons. They went with H&K instead.

  56. I really hope we get open carry in Texas soon. I’m looking for a small concealable 9mm mostly for my wife but if we don’t get open carry I’ll need one as well. As for open carry, back in 2000 I bought a brand new H&K USP .45 for $600. The only time I’ve had trouble with it is when I tried to run that winchester klean range ammmo with the truncated cone bullets through it. It HATED that stuff. Everything else it eats no problem, even Hornady:p My wife really likes it too but says it’s too heavy for her, but she likes how it shoots ‘soft’.

    Course, since I’m starting to do IDPA matches, I also want to find a 9mm for that cause I simply can’t afford to shoot my .45 unless I start reloading.

    See, guns for men are like shoes for women, we need one for every outfit:p

    • “I really hope we get open carry in Texas soon”

      But, but…, to hear everyone here tell it, Texas is the pinnacle of Gun Freedom!

      #selfDelusionalNotionsOfFreedom

  57. Cool, maybe I can pick up one of those “crappy” M&P’s real cheap. I can always use another one or two.

  58. I understand that this forum exists so everyone can offer their two cents worth about gun issues such as what may or may not be causing the M&P 9 malfunctions experienced by TXDPS, but everyone should realize that DPS has ALOT of very knowledgeable gun guys involved in the firearms training program and several of them were very familiar with and owned M&P’s before the decision to transition from Sig to S&W was ever made. The firearms training of DPS recruits consumes over a month of the nearly 6 month Academy and the staff of full time FA instructors at the DPS Range as well as dozens of field FA instructors assigned to each recruit school know the difference between a malfunction caused by the shooter and a mechanical problem with the firearm, and then factor in that the majority of recruits are prior law enforcement or military so basic firearms knowledge is not an issue. Obviously there is a major quality control issue between the M&P’s tested & evaluated by the training staff in the years leading up to the decision by DPS Brass to phase out Sig for S&W, and the batch of M&P’s delivered for issue to Trooper Trainees in 2014.

    An article in another forum (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/03/24/interesting-sw-factory-error/ ) revealed that a S&W Bodyguard minus the serrations on the slide was recently delivered to a Dealer. Now if you come up with the WTF answer as to how a pistol without serrations on the slide made it out the S&W factory, I suspect the same answer might explain the malfunctions encountered by TXDPS. I just hope that the crew at S&W had their s#!t together when they built the M&P40 CORE Pro Series I just paid 600 bucks for and had to sink another 165 bucks into on an Apex FSS kit for a decent trigger that should come standard on every so called Pro Series that leaves the S&W factory.

    • That kind of shit happens when one of 2 things happen. 1 you ramp up production beyond production limits. 2 you reduce production costs, by using cheaper parts. Either lead down the same path to shit creek, with out a pattle. This really sucks because in my opinion the Smith feels better tham my Glocks.

    • Ted Unlis, it looks as though those highly qualified personnel either were not involved or failed to test actual shipping S&W units with the ammo intended to be used. Any way you look at it, DPS needs to do a better job.

      • The M&P’s DPS tested over the last couple of years didn’t malfunction, the batch of guns delivered for issue to DPS recruit class A14 malfunctioned. Obviously you don’t know shit about how firearms are issued by a law enforcement agency of more than 3500 sworn officers. Well over 12,000 Sig Sauer handguns have been purchased and issued by TXDPS since 1989 and not one of them required a post factory quality control inspection and test after delivery to the buyer. Quality control and testing to insure each individual weapon functions properly is the responsibility of the firearms manufacturer before a weapon leaves the factory. The test for proper function and reliability by TXDPS of a newly issued weapon is accomplished at the range during initial or transition training and qualification by the recruit, Trooper, Agent, or Ranger who will actually be carrying that specific weapon, and that is mandatory before the newly issued weapon can be carried on duty. I don’t know how S&W and DPS will ultimately resolve the issue, but I can guarantee you if the Smith and Wesson M&P 9mm requires a post factory quality control inspection and test on each individual pistol upon delivery to ferret out flaws the S&W factory missed, the M&P will never be carried by a Trooper, Agent, or Ranger in the State of Texas.

        • You obviously know nothing at all or you would not have made such a statement. You also don’t read well so I’ll repeat it. They obviously failed to test shipping units for acceptance testing. I’ll put it even more simply for you. They screwed up. Deal with it.

  59. I can vouch for this issue of reliability from different loads. I work for the Sheriff and we also have a separate city/county police oversaw by the Mayor. About the same time 4 years ago we both switched duty weapons. Us the Glock 21 and the police choose M&P in 45 ACP. During the POST academy our Deputy recruits had zero malfunctions running thousands of rounds of factory reloads and training ammo (ZERO was the name of the ammo), The Police had to call in a Smith and Wesson armorer who gave the final verdict of the academy needing to buy better training ammo. A Police cadet could not finish one entire qual. COF of 30 rounds without 1 to 5 malfunctions. After words the M&P seemed pretty flawless running regular factory and duty ammunition. And being a bit jealous, it feels better in hand than my big old brick 21.

  60. I am not sure what the failures were as that is not stated but my M&P 40s have been flawless. I shoot everything from high quality defense rounds, cheap steelcase, to a LOT of lead handloads. The only issues I have noticed to date have been with a few primers too deep on some handloads. My fault, not the guns. Going out today for another round of gunpowded relaxation therapy and these S&Ws will be part of that. As I have stated before, they take everything I feed them and ask for more.

  61. One of the first guns I bought was a brand new M&P 9c. I took it home, field striped it, cleaned it, reassembled it, pulled the trigger, and then proceeded to pick up the tip of the firing pin that had broken off and shot through the barrel. Needless to say, I was not impressed. S&W replaced it, but I was not given any explanation as to the cause.

  62. Sorry Mr. Gaston Glock, I thought he had passed. Heck he was born in 1929. How many people you know born in that era that are still living?

  63. The failures had to be sufficient enough to dump the gun entirely, with out letting Smith try to work out the issue, or exchange for a different model. This makes me feel they discovered a horrible, none fixable flaw in the design, who knows.
    I am wondering why there not talking about the failure though, makes me think Smith is scared to have it come to light! Maybe their trying to design a fix before the panic RECALL sets in?

    • I doubt seriously if it’s an inherent design flaw with the M&P because there are too many older guns out there that have never had any problems. It is much more likely that DPS got a batch of guns that were somehow outside of S&W build specs and tolerances, which means it is a quality control issue caused by either an irresponsible increase in production or slacking machine operators and/or inspectors.

      Fixing the quality control issue will be much easier than winning back the trust and confidence of DPS.

      • I agree with that statement completely. If you read my post earlier I have seen a total difference in the quality of manufacturing from Smith and Wesson lately. I have a 9c from about two and a half years ago and it’s absolutely flawless. I got a shield about 6 months ago and it was absolutely junk.

      • I agree with that statement completely. If you read my post earlier I have seen a total difference in the quality of manufacturing from Smith and Wesson lately. I have 9c from about two and a half years ago and it’s absolutely flawless. I got a shield about 6 months ago and it was absolutely junk.

    • “They obviously failed to test shipping units for acceptance testing”, Too funny Richard. Did you come up with that one all by yourself or did the kid working at the Bass Pro Shop gun counter lay it on you.

      Let me help you try to visualize what that might look like. The freight company truck driver delivers a few pallets bearing 500 new pistols to the DPS firearms range in Florence TX and asks one of the firearms training officers to sign for receipt of the weapons, the officer verifies the number of weapons received in the shipment then tells the truck driver, hold on right there partner, we gotta do some “acceptance testing” before we sign off.

      How many rounds should the firearms training officers fire through each individual weapon during this “acceptance testing” Richard? 50? 100? 500? What is the truck driver doing while this “acceptance testing” of these 500 weapons is taking place Richard, does he sleep in his truck? If the firearms training officers encounter a weapon that malfunctions, do they reject that specific weapon for “acceptance” or the entire shipment of 500?

      You see Richard, in the real world “acceptance testing” takes place over a couple of years before the first shipment of purchased guns are received. DPS puts the sample guns provided for evaluation through the ringer with thousands of rounds of many different types of ammunition fired, torture tests, disassembly and inspection by DPS Armorers trained by S&W, and everything else you can imagine.

      Any time a law enforcement agency is replacing 3500 weapons, they can only trust that the firearms manufacturer will deliver weapons of the same quality and reliability as the weapons tested and evaluated before the decision to purchase was made. Only a dumbass would believe that individual “acceptance testing” of each weapon in a large shipment is practical or actually happens in the real world. There was no “acceptance testing” of the 12,000 plus Sig Sauer pistols purchased since 1989 by DPS. There were of course malfunctions and flaws on a few Sigs out of hundreds during transition training and qualification of the officer issued the weapon.

      I will repeat it for you one more time Richard, the test for proper function and reliability by TXDPS of a newly issued weapon is accomplished at the range during initial or transition training and qualification by the recruit, Trooper, Agent, or Ranger who will actually be carrying that specific weapon, and this is mandatory before any newly issued weapon can be carried on duty.

      • Everything you say keep demonstrating that you don’t know what the hell you are doing and add proof that DPS screwed up. The kind of slackness you describe got a lot of GIs killed in ‘Nam, but that involved corruption on top of incompetence. I hope that is not the case with DPS.

        • The ignorant and lame attempt to somehow link the malfunctions in the first batch of M&P’s delivered to DPS with GI’s killed in Vietnam confirms that you are a real dumbass Richard. No matter what kind of information is available, you’ll never admit you don’t know shit about duty weapon testing and selection in a major law enforcement agency.

          Fact is that DPS was on top of it from the get go and didn’t hesitate to pull the trigger (pun intended) by immediately suspending the adoption of the S&W M&P 9mm as soon as the unacceptable malfunctions were encountered.

          No matter what type of idiotic response you might choose to come back with Richard, it is an indisputable fact that not one single M&P ever made to the street for carry by a Trooper, Agent, or Ranger in the State of Texas and never will until it is has been proven that the M&P is at least as reliable, dependable, and durable as the Sig Sauer pistols carried by DPS over the last quarter century have been.

          • It is interesting that with every statement you make you show a greater ignorance than the last one. It is idiots like you who cost lives because you can not even grasp the questions, much less an answer. Why don’t you do yourself a favor and quit.

  65. I have one complaint about the M&P pistol design that I believe disqualify it from consideration as defensive pistol. The issue is with the magazine release. Very little pressure is needed to drop a magazine. The magazine release spring is very weak. Very little travel of the button is needed to cause the tab on the release to disengage the magazine. Due to its’ dimensions, the button is very susceptible to being accidently depressed. Unintentional magazine releases are a real possibility. The last thing any officer or civilian needs in a defensive situation is for the magazine to fall from his/her pistol. I had an M&P 40 and 45. I sent the guns back to S&W over the magazine release issue and I was advised that the guns met their specifications and were not defective. I believe the specification is where the defect is present. I sold both for this very reason. I switched back to Glock. I carry a Glock on-duty and have no complaints. The gun works every time I pull the trigger and I never have reservations about it being up to the any task when I need it.

  66. I’ve owned a few M&P’s. I was very disappointed with the M&P 9c’s. Good looking pistols but utterly unreliable. S&W CS informed me that the 2 FTE’s per 100 rds were acceptable. Hell, I have not had that many in 10k rds on my G17’s & 19’S! The M&P 45’s were a different matter. The functioned well. Were accurate enough. The trigger was just awful. I’ve since gone back to Glocks which will win more gunfights than beauty contests any day. They prove that looks arent everything. Btw, wise choice on the part of the Texas DPS..

    • Exactly what happens with BAD CUSTOMER SERVICE! My father ran a gunshop for over 16 years, and I remember the Smith Reps coming in and showing us the new products coming out. Let us shoot them, and get are feedback on how they could make the product better. Those days are long gone. Replaced by mass assembly line , mass production with the cheapest parts possible.

      I can also remember if a customer thought his newly purchased firearms mag release spring was way to weak for his or her personal taste, let alone the safety issue, they would swap it out with a heavy weight spring. At either free of charge, or charge you for the cost of the springs. The problem is this is going on in every mass production gun maker right now. Its like a race to the bottom, with NO pride in workmanship.

      • I will say that I have seen a lot of slack QC and some disappointing customer service within the last few years from many manufacturers.

        It’s enough that I’ve been having a hard time deciding on a new 9mm CCW handgun. I have the money to buy virtually any of them right now, but my experiences indicate that there are so few choices that a guy could actually trust right out of the box. A handgun I bought just a few months ago is back at S&W being serviced right now, and I am very much hoping that they don’t entirely screw the pooch on it. It just plain should have worked right the first time, but so few firearms seem to anymore.

        Personally, I have found that CZ, Ruger, and BCM stand behind their products. That’s the benchmark I use anymore – not whether or not it will work, but whether or not the company will just fix it with no BS if it doesn’t.

        • that’s what I’ve been saying this whole time for the last two and a half years. Its a darn shame that today’s US and gun manufacturers are building junk and pushing it off on the new gun buyer, where the older gun person with more experience sees the faults in the quality of construction that’s why I don’t buy anything manufactured anymore build it myself end of story.

    • In response to the opinions of CQB60 and Gregory about Glock, AMEN! Back before DPS adopted the Sig P220 & P228 in 1989, all suggestions that the dependable and much less expensive Glock should be considered as the DPS issue weapon were completely rejected by a single gruff old school firearms training officer who pretty much unilaterally made all DPS firearms acquisition decisions. There was no way by god he was going to go for a plastic gun, and like many hard headed Glock haters in law enforcement back in the day, he came up with reasons to reject the pistol by skewing the duty weapon specs to eliminate Glock from consideration, two of my favorites were that the Glock was unsafe because it didn’t have an external hammer or a decocking lever. If you want really want to identify mistakes (listen up Richard) made by Texas DPS in firearms selection, the total rejection of Glock for consideration as a duty weapon initially followed by decades of refusing to admit they got it wrong has been a consistent bone headed call by DPS brass over the last 25 years..

  67. Even if is ammo related ill take the P226, mine eats everything, 20K rounds since 1992 and never missed a bang! Something my Glock’s can’t say.

  69. I own every variant of the M&P fullsize in .357 sig(and a 40 barrel also) 40 cpmpact, 9mm shield and bodyguard in .380. As far as feed problems I have never had one. I shoot any kind of ammo(usually whats on sale) and mostly my handloads in all of them. The only problems I have with the fullsize and compact is the triggers are horrible to me. A quick trip to apex will fix that right up though 🙂 the shield came out of the box with a much better trigger and the bodyguard well its a pocket gun so the long heavy trigger is fine in it. With that said I too still think the Sig is by far a superior gun in 226 or 229 configuration. Glocks? well I know alot of people love them so I won’t even go there LOL SHTF weapon though I’ll still take my 1911 anyday 🙂

  70. I have an M&P that I bought in 2009 that has about 2000 rounds through it with no issues (no I don’t shoot that much). It eats whatever I feed it. But can we get back to that tampon thing that you aren’t supposed to get wet? I see it on my gun but haven’t heard anything about this.

  71. Although I did not read every one of the above scadzillion comments, the general tone of most of the comments I did read is either childish or peevish. First off, it is totally irrelevant whether any firearms shooter has shot a million plus rounds through any handgun with zero malfunctions. Get real! Secondly, if some of you guys have nothing better to do than spend hours and hours on this blog rebutting everybody’s comments that seem ridiculous or inane, get a life. The commenters I respect are those firearms enthusiasts who keep their itchy trigger fingers off their keyboards until they have actually spent a few minutes consulting their brains for more helpfulness and less bravado.

    Come on people! Report the facts, respect the other person’s opinion, and live and learn.

  72. My father was a former marine and a Detective with the city of Pittsburgh.
    over the years Dad used a number of Handguns, He always felt reliability was most important, thus the revolver was number one, having said that he used Auto pistols as well and as he said shit will happen and you best be prepared to field strip a weapon quickly and resolve the issue at hand.
    1911’s he loved them but said they are a pain in the ass field striping and if you are smart you will carry extra recoil spring and recoil spring plug on you at all times just in case it goes flying off.
    That is why he started carrying a Smith&Wesson victory model revolver chambered in 38 special in Korea
    He also picked up a Beretta model 1934, he thought well of this pistol.
    When he was on the job he carried mostly revolvers the one that I knew of that he carried the most was his colt cobra snub nose, he would also carry back up pieces one was the Walther PPK, which he liked, but still favored the revolver,
    Than he picked up a FN~Hi Power, and he carried that for a number of years, we used to shoot it a lot no malfunctions and we mixed ammo types, projectile weights, projectile types never an issue, as Dad said this is the first Auto pistol he truly liked and it is a trouble free pistol to field strip.
    He last few years on the job the city issued him a stainless Smith & Wesson cambered in 38+ P 4 inch barrel, this pistol became his all time favorite he completely retired the colt cobra and was sad he had to turn it in when he retired way back in 1985.
    Over the years I have bought pistols Polymer and steel , as pe polymer frames the number one would have to be the USP 45, it was easy to field strip, browning like design, internally, it was reliable a handgun as one could get and was accurate, the only thing I did not care for when I would shoot it I could feel the ammunition moving up the magazine and the pistol seemed to get lighter in the but and I felt my self adjusting my grip.
    I damn sorry I traded that pistol.
    Latter I bought a Smith&Wesson P99 pistol very easy field stripping pistol, to me
    to me though the grip frame was just to light and the decocker lever was in a bad place, this pistol was also in 45 acp, and as long as you gripped it correctly it went bang, I should have bought it in 9mm, instead of 45 acp.
    I also bought the Smith & Wesson M& P around the same time period, the frame is a lot stiffer and has a more solid feel to it than the H&K usp and esp the Smith & Wesson M & P 99 pistols The grip felt good , I did not take the time to check out the field stripping procedures, You are provided with three grip inserts the extra large, the large and the small, The pistol had the x-large on them, when I took it to the range for the first time, The pistol never malfunctioned , But it was the most painful experience I have ever had when it comes to shooting a handgun and believe me when I say I have shot some big ass caliber hand guns,
    It was like someone had place the tip of a rail road spike dead center at the palm of my hand and hit that rail road spike with a ten pound sledge hammer every time I pulled the trigger. The pistol to change the grip inserts there is a tool that is located to the rear of the magazine well, they tell you to rotate the tool and pull out, well for four years , I needed to use a tool to pull that tool out , could not get enough leverage on it, I put the Small grip insert on it and the pistol is much more pleasant to shoot, but Iam not a fan of Smith & Wesson rear grip arch design. now the take down while not complicated it is a pain in the ass having to take the tool out to disengage that lever, which is located inside the ejection port of the magazine and it is also located under another lever, I usually donot use the tool I use a pencil or pen or even my finger, and for inexperienced folks with this pistol they have trouble finding the right lever to push down and that is in day light conditions, just think if your in a tight spot at night and you have to field strip it to fix an issue, trying to find that lever ?
    The loaded chamber indicator the is to me a total waste you have to take your eyes off target and point the muzzle up to look through that stupid hole, that at night time is of zero value, they should have stuck with the p99 striker system.
    I feel the trigger is good and the grasping groves along the slide our excellent at least for me. and the sights are good. I for one like the location and size of the magazine release button. and the frame has a solid feel to it.
    But there are better 45’s out there the I still prefer the 1911’s grip esp. with the flat main spring housing.
    Than I came across the Sarsilmaz ~ Sar k2 45 auto, its all steel, 14 shot capacity,
    adjustable rear sight, From my understanding Sarsilmaz got its start as a sub-contractor to produce parts for the witness pistol, which is a copy of the CZ-75.
    The grip reminds me of the Browning Hi-Power while its curved its a gentle comfortable curve, unlike the Smith & Wesson M & P, its lines to our a combination Sig, Hi and of coarse Cz~75 like, very comfortable and pleasant to shoot 45, and I have had no issues with it thus far and it is accurate a 45 as there is. The hammer is a true colt commander style and easy to use, it has cocked and locked feature, the safety is well designed and for me just the right size, The grasping groves along the slide are nice and are cut deep enough that it gives you a good solid grip on the slide and you have a nice wide trigger guard for gloved hands.

  73. I think the great state of Texas should have done there home work and checked out what they were buying before buying. In my opinion they should have went to Glock like rest of the States and city’s, they work every time they have been proven and time tested, I know there will be glock haters out there but they do work every time.

    • the Texas Review Board did do their homework on the Smith and Wesson M&P 9, the problem was the pistols they tried out and purchase 3 years earlier to do their review on were not built to the same quality that the pistols that were delivered for the order. Smith & Wesson has dropped their qualityon the parts that they use to produce their hand guns with. That’s why they’ve had issues with extraction and failure to feed with their barrels cheaper parts cheaper guns whole thing just boils down to s**** Creek there swimming in. There has been a complete drop in quality control in production value across all the major manufacturers from Sig Sauer Smith and Wesson Kimber even glock us had numerous failures with her g 36. So bad so that key see the glock shooter had to withdraw from his last competition because he had a gun failure that he couldn’t fix and those guys that are team sponsored by glock carry everything to fix their guns just a little hint that they’re not building the same guns at the bill 20 years ago. Our local PD had to have the entire order of Glocks gen 4 22 replaced with Jen 3 21s. if you want a high quality pistol nowadays you just have to buy a pistol from a custom gun builder with accredited background. Production guns are just about junk nowadays are all the way across the board!

  74. My two SIG’s, a P-226 purchased in 1989 and a P-239 purchased in 2013, run just fine with all ammo types, with the exception of steel cased TulAmmo. A second strike on four rounds out of fifty was required by the P-239, none with the P-226. Probably due to a slighter smaller and lighter hammer of the P-239. Second strike capability is a nice thing to have, something that many striker fired weapons don’t have.

    Texas DPS did evaluate the M&P’s, and their SWAT team members reported numerous failures. That said, the troopers love the .357 SIG round overall, and the .45 ACP for close in work like serving warrants on dangerous criminals in a home environment.
    And yes, they are using SIG’s for both.

  75. smith and wesson is still living on a brand name and deep love its fans have. many shooters will only use an sw and swear all else is junk. just like some truck drivers will only drive a pete. the m&p is a joke. almost no police forces in the world use them, esp compared to other pistols such as glock sig steyr colt etc. no military branch or unit ive ever heard of use them period. glock is the most widely used service weapon in the world, followed close by the model 92 and the 1911. and no im not a fanboy of glocks or have a tattoo or any of that mess of a glock. im just pointing out the joke of the label military and police when almost neither use them. maybe some small team or third world test bed may have them but not enough users to even mention. its like saying a hi point could be used a service weapon also….. after the way sw backstabbed customers more than once i will not own another sw product ever. not even a branded item like all the made in china pocket tools and t shirts. im not saying they are junk guns or dont work or any of that. they make several products that work fine and several have good workmanship. im saying im not going to give them a cent of my money and it wouldnt bother me a tic if they went out of biz. they are not the red white and blue 2nd am USA company they once were. folks looking for manufactures that fully support gun rights and dont cut the hamstrings of buyers need to look at other brands. buyers looking for a real military and police grade weapon would do well to ignore the M and P line.

    • Remind me how they backstabbed customers? If you mean the 90’s AWB it had a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ownership. They’re the ones who made the decision to make the deal to avoid lawsuits. Other then 10 round capacity limit, I don’t even get what the big deal is. Then again, i’m middle of the road politically, so that might explain why. Anyways, O’l man Smith and O’l man Wesson didn’t decide it in the retirement home. Corporations are NOT people, They change owners and the actions of those owners during they’re time there should NOT affect the company when they’ve gone. I don’t even know what the 2nd one is your talking about. They’re a friggin firearms manufacturer, Along with Colt, our oldest still around (well Colt actually, other than rifles, is kinda…) They make both pistols and rifles with high capacity magazines, but they’re against our 2nd amend, rights? Or because they’re where they’ve been pretty much their whole existence, in Mass.? That doesn’t mean I can’t get full capacity mags from them. Their revolvers are solid, polymers were rough a bit for a while, but M&P’s with trigger kits are good pistols. To each their own, but Smith and Wesson never did anything, because (AGAIN) they are not a person. The owners at the time blame and curse all you want. Our other big domestic gunmaker Springfield makes their weapons in Croatia. Meaning Smith is prob the most American large firearms make we have. Not that I care either way, I’ll buy a gun made in Turkey if it’s the right stuff.

  76. DPS class B-2014 should have been well into their training by now. Someone should know what sidearms they were issued. Even if DPS is playing hide the ball on what the problems were in class A-2014, DPS should be in a position where they should respond to a simple question of what was issued to the new class.

  77. I’ve got a SW Shield, a Glock 17, and a Sig p320, and none have ever failed to fire. No stovepipes, nothing. What they mean when they says “issues” is pretty damn ambiguous. Oh, the recruit school, well I’m not sure, but if it’s anything like a Glock, you’re gonna have a few people limp wrist it every day. Malfunction, My academy also used reloads which were a tad underpowered I believe (when I went to the range one day and bought plain cheap 9mm range ammo I was surprised at the recoil because it wasn’t what I’d been getting at the academy range), which helped accuracy and confidence, but made limp wristing malfunctions even more likely. I assume it made stovepipes and your other slap(magazine) and rack(slide) to clear malfunctions more likely also, Good practice at least, eventually anything that could be cleared without disassembly was like our magazine changes, all muscle memory. Anyways, I don’t know what they used there, but if they were using .357 sig before ($$) they might have been in the habit of reloading already. Or the class might have been incompetent, but while tigger on the M&P sucks, I don’t hear of any issues regarding malfunctions really. I don’t hear that for any of the big makers. Recalls? Yes. It’s past that point for the M&P though.

  78. M&Ps are junk, its well known at this point they have barrel problems. This is what happens when other manufacturers try to out Glock Glock. If you want a Glock, get a Glock, not some pale imitation. Glock has been making perfection since 1985, these jonny come lately wannabe Glocks might figure it out in 25 years.

    • I would have to agree I sell M&P pistols at our shop and I’ve got to shields right now 9 millimeter that are back at Smith and Wesson because the barrels came apart where the land meets the groove near the crown pieces chunks rather a barrel have come out I don’t know what the hell Smith and Wesson is doing but they’re making junk!

  81. I have the M&P in 9mm and have shot tons of differing cheap ammo.
    HOWEVER in this same time period that this article was written (early 2014), I too experience 6 jams and numerous bullets being broken in mid flight (observed when I pulled in the target, lots of extra small holes). Up until this point I’d shot thousands of rounds with no problems.

    Needless to say I was extremely concerned.

    However, after a short while this issue went away. Since then I’ve had ZERO problems using what ever ammo I put through it. I really think it was a quality control issue. If you recall, the ammo shortage was in full swing; I’m sure companies were dropping their quality standards to get ammo out the door as fast they could.

  82. I have a M&P in 357 sig. It’s the worst handgun I have, and I have a lot of them. It throws bullets all over, and is basically useless to me. I’ve slugged the barrel, and a .356 diameter lead bullet barely shows signs of rifling. I sent it back to S&W and they just sent it back and said it was in specs. It’s junk.

    Old adage: Buy S&W revolvers, but stay away from their autos.. I learned my lesson.

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