(courtesy kxxv.com)

“Authorities went to a four-plex apartment on the 1100-block of circle ‘m’ drive to serve a search warrant,” kxxv.com reports. “When [Detective] Dinwiddie and another officer tried to enter the apartment 50 year-old Marvin Louis Guy and a 49 year-old woman opened fire on authorities hitting Dinwiddie in the face and Officer Odis Denton in the leg. Guy is now in the Bell County Jail and faces three attempted capital murder charges.” The report fails to mention whether or not . . .

the shooting occurred during a no-knock raid. The Killeen Police Department’s press release [click here to read] leaves little doubt that the officers were shot in a “dynamic entry” incident, with a fatal result.

On Friday May 9, 2014, just after 5:30am, members of the Killeen Police Department Tactical Response Unit and the Bell Organized Crime Unit were attempting to serve a narcotics search warrant. The TRU was beginning to breach the window when the 49 year old male inside, opened fire striking four officers. Two of the officer who were shot received minor wounds, because they were shot in an area where their safety equipment protected them. They were treated and released at Scott & White Memorial Hospital.

Officer Denton, a 9 year veteran of the department and an 8 year SWAT team member, was shot in the femur. He was transported to the Carl R Darnall Army Hospital and later transferred to Scott & White Memorial Hospital. After undergoing surgery Officer Denton is in the intensive care unit in good condition. Detective Dinwiddie received a life-threatening wound to the face and was immediately transferred to the Carl R Darnall Army Medical Center. On Sunday May 11, 2014, Detective Dinwiddie succumbed to his injuries and was pronounced deceased at 1:30pm by Justice of the Peace David Barfield.

Exactly what went wrong during the raid, why the Killeen PD decided to no-knock Marvin Louis Guy in the first place, may never be known. But one can easily imagine that the SWAT team could have arrested/detained Mr. Guy and his female companion when they were outside of their home, and conducted the search at their leisure.

In any event, our condolences to the officer’s colleagues, friends and family. [h/t Joel]

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298 COMMENTS

  1. When you play a dangerous game you get dangerous consequences. I offer my condolences to his family but I have no sympathy for this officer or any of the other wounded ones. Anyone bursting into my house without knocking will be treated as a criminal, badge or no badge is irrelevant.

      • Play? In my opinion, any “officer” knocking down a door with out knocking and or announcing themselves is a criminal. If they do that to me they get shot dead, and the “law” would be on my side here in Washington.

        • If I read that right, it was even worse, they were trying to force open a window. Don’t ask me why, I would *KNOW* they were thieves if they went after a window, especially 4 of them. I suspect this guy might get off.

        • No knock at my house you will get shot. My vest and guns are right by my bed and I rarely miss what I shoot at. Never been convicted of a crime in my 63 years.

    • That seems to be pretty irresponsible statement with a lot of uneducated responses. The article states nothing about why this was a “no knock”, but everyone immediately assumes the cops were at fault. If you were involved in a shooting, wouldn’t you want people to know the facts before passing judgment on you? I guess that doesn’t apply to other people… This guy could have a very violent criminal history with known weapons in the house. I am not a fan of “no knock” warrants in general, but I will reserve judgment till I actually have some facts on which to base it. I know, what a novel concept…

        • Hostage rescue is certainly a good reason for a no knock. I might even go as far as apprehending a known dangerous armed fugitive who has been convicted of a crime and has offered police armed resistance to arrest in the past. Short of that I can see no real reason. They need to be outlawed. Also we need to pass protections for citiZens against prosecution if they shoot police on no-knocks. That will stop the from happening very often.

          • Yep. They crave the adrenaline rush, but don’t want to have to face any real danger. How does that work, again? I know! Let them practice surprise no-knock raids on each others’ houses!

        • AFAIK, when there was reasonable suspicion that a hostage was being kept inside, rescuing the hostage didn’t require this special ‘no knock’ dispensation. ‘No knock’ warrants need to go. They never should’ve been permitted in our free nation.

          • But martial law seems bigger on the table than ever before. They’re dead set on committing the most serious blunder imaginable.

            Your input or mine is not being sought. Show no mercy.

      • You don’t barge into a man’s home without announcing yourself. I don’t care if that man is a criminal or not. If you work in law enforcement there are certain standards that society holds you to, that’s what separates a professional from a common thug. If the police are going to act like common thugs then they need to be treated as such. This isn’t “uneducated” this is just common sense. This isn’t Somalia. We shouldn’t be at the mercy of local warlords who can barge into our houses at any second and shoot us to death.

      • Even more reason not to sneak through a window…they are dumbasses who have not enough training…I believe that is the problem with all these police officers…halve ass dumbasses

      • I live near Killeen and just happen to have a copy of the “Temple Daily Telegram.” “In November 2011, Guy was arrested after police responded to a domestic disturbance at a home in the 2600 block of Larissa Drive in Killeen. The article goes on to report about a domestic dispute. It isn’t quite daylight at that time of the morning. I’m up at 4:30 and having my coffee by 5. I like to look outside and visibility is usually good about 6.

        I do not know Mr. Guy, but if someone starts “breeching” my window there will be shots fired. Come to my door, knock and identify yourself and we can talk.

        The report is vague on details, but does not say anything about drugs beyond that they “attempted to serve a narcotics search warrant…”

        If he is guilty they will throw the key away. If innocent a lawsuit will probably stop such invasive search procedures in the future.

        • No, it will never stop UNTIL the judgements have to come directly out of the departmental budgets!

          What incentive is there for them to stop when the judgement is passed on to the taxpayers? Why are the TAXPAYERS paying for the misconduct of their police departments?

          WHY SHOULD THEY?

      • I agree with Burke on this one. These paramilitary types should practice on each other. 9 times out of 10 these things are ratcheted up by these agencies in order to justify after dark no-knocks. Frankly, if the evidence in question is so small to be flushed, it isn’t worth risking anyone’s lives over.

    • You took the words right outta my mouth.
      Expect a raid like that to be by men wearing protection; body armor. That face shield will yield. Don’t waste a round. Put it where it works.

    • I gotta agree. NO knock is a terrible idea. All could have been avoided by just getting them outside the house. Who would say “ok no knock sounds like a good idea” NOT THIS GUY!

  2. So, if it was a no-knock, it’s the second officer killed in one in Texas in less than six months.

    And the shooter in the first got no-billed.

    This one is facing capital murder charges, eh? It will be very interesting to see how this plays out.

    To Repeat: No Knock is CRAP.

    • There’s clearly a serious disconnect between police practices and the public. No-knock raids on the wrong address, raids based on shaky evidence from questionable informants, innocent citizens having their homes invaded, their pets killed, people getting killed . . . and all this happening while even the smallest ‘burb’s police department gets its own MRAP and SWAT team . I wonder how this can be stopped? Criminals have already figured out that pretending to be cops is a great way to successfully invade a house, so what difference does it make if someone shouts “police” before breaking down your door? The message from the police is that homeowners should always assume that guys in black jackets shouting “police” really are police. This places the private citizen in an impossible situation. If someone is coming in your door shouting “police” and you hesitate you or your family could be hurt or killed. But if you try to defend yourself and aren’t immediately killed, you’ll surely find yourself in jail and charged with murder. If you have no money, live in the wrong neighborhood, are the wrong “kind” of person, you’re toast. Since this is Texas and the city is Kileen, maybe there will be a few People Of The Gun on the grand jury. Maybe.

      • And all this is about the wonderful War on Drugs, Which has been going on for 40 years, costing many trillions, after which you can buy any drug you wish on any streetcorner in America. We lost that war decades ago, let’s stop fighting it, decrease crime, close prisons, fire half our police, and increase revenue by trillions by changing our political motto from “Tax the rich!” to “Tax the damn DRUGS!”

        • “We lost that war decades ago, let’s stop fighting it, decrease crime, close prisons, fire half our police, and increase revenue by trillions by changing our political motto from “Tax the rich!” to “Tax the damn DRUGS!””

          This is why it won’t happen; there is to much money and power funneled to the cops, ( government money and asset forfeiture money) to the courts, to the jails, ect. for it to end except by a huge public out cry or by more cops dying executing these abominations.

        • You would not say that if you lived in the drug paradise of Colorado. Come spend a week or two watching the effects on society before we go completely pro drugs. Believe me it is not all it is wrapped up to be. (and this from someone who voted for Mary Jane legalization.)

      • “….and all this happening while even the smallest ‘burb’s police department gets its own MRAP and SWAT team.”

        My eyes were opened to local police militarization about 15 years ago after dinky Houston suburb League City, TX got a SWAT team. That brings League City’s number of SWAT teams equal to the number of off ramps the city has from I-45 the Gulf Freeway. There are companies you’ve never heard of which have more employees than League City has residents. Yet there they are, tooling around town in their armored car, looking for a reason to exist. And this in the suburb that has the highest concentration of concealed carry license holders in the state. Good grief.

        • I remember when the LCPD picked up a SWAT team. If I remember right, they used the I-45 killings and those bodies off Calder Rd. as justification.

        • ” There are companies you’ve never heard of which have more employees than League City has residents.” Okay, I’m game. Name a company I have never heard of that has more than 83,560 employees.

      • This is Texas, there is no way to convict that homeowner after cops bust in to their home. Castle law is paramount, and I hope it doesn’t take many more of these illegal raids for it to sink in that this **** don’t fly here in America.

      • How to stop the Madness, by William Burke (one more time!)

        Pass laws in the state legislatures, or locally, that specify that damages judgements against the local police or sheriff’s department are IN NO WAY the responsibility of the taxpayers.

        ALL judgements are to be taken DIRECTLY from the departmental budget. NO EXCEPTIONS.

        If a judgement is more than the departmental budget, the budget will be HALVED for as many years in a row as it takes to get squared away.

        NO EXCEPTIONS.

        • Exactly! Rein in the Fraternal Brotherhood by going after pensions if necessary.

          • DAMN! Thanks. I wasn’t even thinking about the pension funds. Anyway, if they aren’t taken for settlements, the corporate looters will take ’em. Along with yours and mine.

          • That is an internal matter. I don’t care how they pay it. I just want them to pay it. ALL OF IT.

  3. This is just another reason why so-called “no-knock” warrants damn well should be illegal. Full stop. It’s just sooo much easier to just stake out the suspects — on a singed warrant — and grab them when they’re out on their daily business.

    • I don’t see why they just don’t serve warrants like they used to. Show up at the front door, knock, and serve. Have officers out back in case they try and run. Simple, works. You go busting into peoples houses then cry when they shoot at you, well, no shit Sherlock.

      • No point in having a warrant if they’re just going to kick your door in anyway. What a crock.

      • It wasn’t a warrant for arrest, it was a search warrant for narcotics. Presumably the no-knock will decrease the likelihood of evidence being destroyed. At least I believe that is the logic. However, as stated elsewhere, there would be much less risk for everyone involved if the suspects were detained off-premises and then the search executes in a controlled and orderly way. The no-knock raid should not be a first choice, but a last resort in extreme cases.

        In fact, I believe that the tactics used to serve a warrant should at least be subject to the same judicial scrutiny as the warrant itself! That is to say that not only should the search have to be justified, but the tactics to be used should also be justified.

        • If I’m not mistaken, “no-knock” does have to be justified, either before or after the fact, and is subject to judicial review.

        • No-knock is ok to keep the evidence from being flushed away?

          Here’s an idea: let them flush the evidence! Then the drugs will be destroyed and unable to harm any children, the druggie will owe a ton of money to someone, and the whole thing won’t take more than one cop for each door who get to wait for an hour or so to make sure no one escapes with the drugs.

        • @Felix

          It doesn’t work that way. The “officers” want to confiscate it, along with using the drugs as a pretext for asset forfeiture. They make big money from drug-related raids, that’s why it’s their top priority, and takes precedence over solving/deterring violent crime, etc.

        • @fler: I know that, everyone does. But it’s a remarkably simple illustration of how hypocritical the entire War on (Some) Drugs is, and wonderful to trot out whenever some simpleton shows their naivete.

        • And just how much can someone flush while the police are making a normal entry anyway? Think about how long it takes for a normal toilet to cycle. If someone has enough time to flush ALL the drugs the person is a low level punk that certainly doesn’t warrant a no-knock. If it is a big time dealer then there is no way they can flush it all with a traditional knock on the day. Therefore no reason for a no-knock either way. Lastly if there is any degree of distribution intent, there is going to be mounds of evidence scattered through the residence.

        • There is no “judicial review” in 2014. Judges arbitrarily sign anything brought to them without any concern for the law. The “law” is made up as they go depending on what the judge wants to happen and the police want from the judge. JUDICIAL REVIEW IS DEAD.

        • Why can’t they shut off the water to the house/apartment as part of the warrant if they are so concerned about flushing drugs. There’s only enough water in the tank for about a half flush. That would leave enough drugs for evidence and another charge of attempting to destroy evidence.

        • Perhaps the water dept is smart than the PD. Want to stop the toilet from fushing (more than once)? Go to the curb box, insert the key and SHUT OFF THE WATER. Not as macho and cool as B&E I suppose.

          “SWAT” – hammer in search of a nail

        • @ Camper

          The term ‘think smarter, not harder’ is not always part of the police lexicon, particularly among what we used to call the “John Wayne’ types.

        • Critical thinking skills are weeded out from potential recruits along with the ability to question orders and pass a test by too much.

        • If there is such a small amount that can be destroyed, it doesn’t justify endangering the lives of multiple people. Do the paramilitary police types figure their lives are worth a toilet flush? It sure seems like it for many of them.

          • Agreed! They say, “your wallet is not worth your life!”

            Well then, a half-ounce of weed isn’t worth a cop’s life either. That’s my nice version.

          • We are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. Sending death squads to serve search warranty says cops think otherwise. As long as police forces insist on using commando assault forces to serve search warrants both police and civilians are going to die. Every year we read tons of articles trigger happy cops breaking down the doors of the wrong house and then murdering innocent citizens.

        • Yep. Wouldn’t be much of a story down at Cheers to say “I served the warrant after they left the house.”

          ..and note that “The TRU was beginning to breach the window when the 49 year old male inside, opened fire striking four officers. ”

          Everybody knows HSLD means going through the window, right? Sure, maybe if you’re a Guatamalan Santa Claus.

      • Its the quasi military mentality of modern policing, if you are a SWAT hammer every civilian tax payer is a nail, its all they know, the concept of using minimum force and taking enough time to apply maximum intelligence is not an acceptable option when your training has been more appropriate for a civil war scenario. You need to be policed by consent of the people not by militarists or you have no democracy.

        • Exactly. Witness the deputy that shot the rancher’s dog (which was running away), got his ass fired for the effort, and now whines about it as he faces charges. Or the Hearne cop who shot a 93 year old woman after she refused to put her weapon down. In both cases, cops in another time would have backed off and tried another approach. But the militarized, cop-as-hard-ass role says never back down. Even if you’re opponent is a 93 year old, probably demented woman, if she doesn’t obey you get to kill her.

        • +10,000, Murray. This is going to be extremely difficult to change, but change it we must.

      • Completely agree! If I worked for the PD I would refuse be involved in a no knock warranty. You are asking to be shot at. I can’t muster feeling bad for the officers shot, because they deserved it since they could have 1.) Waited for guy to come out of house and arrest. 2.) Knock on door and serve search warrant on front door and yelled POLICE while other officers covered all exits.

    • No knock warrants fly in the face of the due process and equal protection clauses. The ARE illegal home invasions under color of law. I have little pity for jack booted thugs who got shot in the face while being jack booted thugs.

  4. My condolences to the family. One question. Is it routine for an officer of Detective rank to be on this kind of entry team?

      • Because, remember, with rank come privileges.

        Apparently serving a no-knock is so thrilling it’s a privilege. Right up until you get shot coming through the window at 5:30 a.m. because only burglars come through the window.

        • You’re sure onto something here: Police and all others with legitimate business knock at the door during daylight hours. People coming in the window by night are NEVER on legitimate business (even if they think they are) and basic castle doctrine indicates the legal and reasonable assumption and response: It’s a burglar and a dangerous one, shoot them. Negotiate with people at the front door knocking but shoot anyone coming in the window seems like a good rule of thumb actually.

        • Well, some people coming to the front door and knocking may still need a bit of shooting, just not the ones with uniforms, badges, and ID.

  5. This is certainl a tragedy. But every time one of these kinds of things happes, I smile a little inside. Citizens die by the dozens in these ridiculous no knock raids. It will take the dealt of LEOs before these stupid kinds of raids stop.

    There is no logical reason for these events. Its just murderously stupid. The only logical explanation is that these towns have built these SWAT teams and now they want to justify their existence. Much to the detriment of the citizenry. Make the cops hurt and maybe the stupidity will stop.

    • It’s a tragedy for the homeowner whose home was broken into in the middle of the night, and is now facing charges for defending himself from home invaders.

    • I doubt LE would take that tact. Does anyone know ANY police officer who will admit they were wrong, and adjust their strategy accordingly? Or, will their personality only make them lean in HARDER, with more of the same, to bully the people into compliance? I predict this will be used to call for MORE raids, with larger, more heavily armed responses.

      • More and more police tactics resemble gestopo and stazi tactics. Have a lot of family and friends that are cops but I don’t feel sorry for any cop that gets shot on these no knock raids. Chances are some of these cops were itching for an opportunity to shoot someone and get away with it.

        • Actually, the most famous tactic of the Gestapo was the ‘knock on the door in the middle of the night’. It seems that even in Nazi Germany simply coming by night was considered crude enough and kicking the door in over the top. Even the Gestapo had better manners than to come in through the window.

        • Well, to be fair, if I understand correctly, ordinary Germans were pretty well disarmed, if not absolutely cowed, at that point; the Gestapo could afford to be polite.

  6. I hate that it had to be that way. If they waited the guy out the officer would possibly be at home with his family.

    However it is unfair to armchair quarterback this situation – the problem is with these raids in principle. They need to stop.

    • It’s entirely fair to review their decisions. They don’t get a pass on their decisions. They had enough time to go and get a warrant, assemble a team, do a briefing to the team, and stage for the attack.

      When someone has to make a snap decision, like when someone pulls a gun on them unexpectedly, or even if a 93 year old insane woman waves a gun around, that’s when you give some deference to the person on the scene. This is not one of those times.

  7. Can someone define for me what the exact difference is between a “no-knock” raid and a “home-invasion”? Because I can’t see any from where I’m sitting.

    I realize LE sometimes has to deal with really bad guys. This isn’t the way to do it.

  9. I feel bad for the family members of the injured officers, but until all information is released I’ll hold off on forming an opinion. These no-knock raids need to stop before the wrong people get injured/killed.

    • The wrong people die in them all the time. They did this time. No one needed to die serving that warrant.

      I think no knock raids are tactically stupid to the point of negligence. As many posters have pointed out, from the point of view of the target there isn’t any way for them to determine who is breaking in their front door. There are simply better ways to serve a warrant,

      • I can’t repeat my pet scheme often enough: let them flush the drugs. You need just one cop for each door, they get to sit at a safe distance for an hour or so, the drugs are destroyed, the druggie owes someone a lot of money, the taxpayers save a ton of money without the trial and decades of locking somebody up for a victimless crime who just might pay some taxes instead.

        • Those are my thoughts also. It’s not worth dying for a couple of kilos of cocaine.

        • In a sensible world with sensible people where rights were respected and human life was more important that the enforcement of arbitrary laws this would be the way of things. In our current Orwellian dystopia where enforcement of the law by whatever means necessary supersedes both reason and cost-benefit analysis and the lives of both officer and suspect are valued less than the amount of drugs (and assets)seized no-knock makes perfect sense.

          I’m reminded of the body count math war of attrition in Vietnam; As long as we get more of them (drugs and suspects in this case) than they do of us (officers wounded or killed, lawsuits lost, innocent citizens killed or ruined) at an acceptable ratio we’re ‘winning’. We just have to keep up the intensity and bear the cost long enough and we’ll win. It didn’t work in Vietnam and it wont work in the ‘War on Drugs’ and surprisingly for some of the same reasons:

          The enemy must not have a safe haven to equip, train and refit (Laos or Mexico, makes no difference).

          The enemy must not have the support of too many of the people (This one is highly questionable in many inner city neighborhoods and just as in Vietnam, the heavy handed tactics are decreasing support by the people of the government).

          The enemy must not have state sponsored support (this is a little quarrelsome but as the Russians and Chinese supported the NVA and Viet Cong the corruption in Mexico and Columbia, coupled to the vast assets of the cartels might well be considered state sponsored external support).

          You must be able to force the enemy to fight on your terms so that you can close with and destroy him (I don’t see how it’s possible to force people to deal drugs on your schedule or at locations of your choosing especially when by nature everyone involved in the trade tends to keep it concealed).

          You must win the ‘hearts and minds’ of the people so they will deny the enemy support (well, we see how well that’s working).

          If the police are to become a defacto military force perhaps they would do well to study the lessons of Vietnam and Iraq. In the former we learned that a counter insurgency via attrition was only effective if the above standards could be met and in the latter we learned that if those cannot be met then one has to offer growth, jobs, security, increasing freedom and viable alternatives to the people to curb support for insurrection and only then will direct action eliminate the core cadre and end the conflict.

          I don’t see any effort at winning the hearts and minds down where it matters in this conflict. I don’t see security being provided to the people in the gang infested areas. I don’t see many viable alternatives to criminal activity being provided in the neighborhoods worst hit. I’d say our plan for the war on drugs is a plan designed to lose from the word go and that the collateral damage and the cost involved don’t even make a holding action viable. If conditional surrender and withdraw aren’t desirable, at the very least a much different approach is needed. I’ll venture that more money was spent on infrastructure and job creation in Iraq that has been spent in the most crime ridden areas of US inner cities during the same period. If the insurgency in Iraq required more building than destroying to reign in, what argument for not attempting the same here could possibly make sense?

        • Ardent, excellent well-organized summary. I would only quibble with one point, and that is about what ‘winning’ the War on Drugs means to its actual sponsors, which would be the Police industry, the Alcoholic Beverage industry, the dark lords who lead the crime syndicates, and the old-school rich who like booze and prefer to have as many as possible of the ‘little’ people stripped of their rights and public face, case in point…made felons. I don’t conjure a conspiracy, but simply see the synergy that arises from the additive parallelism of interest as leading to the prolongation of a useless war. Yes, just as occurred in Vietnam and Afghanistan.

    • “These no-knock raids need to stop before the wrong people get injured/killed.”

      As has been said, there is no “before the wrong people get injured/killed,” it’s already been happening…since the 1990’s at least.

      Cato’s Botched Raid Map is a good one for perspective:

      http://www.cato.org/raidmap

  10. If a group of armed home invaders broke into a cop’s home at night, what would be his first response? Think, McFly, think!

          • Glow-in-the-dark cops, then! 😀

            You can go to Asia and buy a monkey that glows in the dark – look it up! They could make cops that glowed, too, but nobody would pay $30,000 for one.

  11. I think they could have staked out the warrant and moved in on him as he left the house, Walla no injuries or death to either side. I’m second guessing I feel for his family. Let’s all be careful out there!

  12. Good. No-knock raids are atrocious, except in VERY rare circumstances. Their frequency is unacceptable. You wanna pretend to be a tough guy with a gun, eventually a REAL tough guy with a gun is gonna put you in your place, fatally, you bastard.

    The shooter will get life in prison, but we should call him a hero for standing up to these thugs.

  13. Don’t feel sorry for the cop. Too bad he had to die, but he had it coming. No knocks are evil. The “war on [some] drugs” is evil.

    • You kinda do have to wonder how many midnight raids with a machine gun in hand this guy had been on, how many evil citizens he had fired on, before getting too teary.

  14. This whole no knock thing is stupid, you live in a bad neighborhood and someone breakesdown your door at that time (it’s dark and most people are asleep) of night what you gonna do ask to see thier badge before you open up?

  15. What about the use of flash bangs which cause PERMANENT DAMAGE to a persons hearing with NO DUE PROCESS? What about a prison system in which RAPE is common place? For all the whining about abu ghraib, I didn’t hear about instances of gang rape. The simple fact of the mater is that our prison system doesn’t even comply with the standards of the Geneva Convention. By supporting this fundamental violation of human rights, these “officers” have by definition violated their oath of duty. PERIOD.

    • You neglected to say THE LARGEST PRISON POPULATION ON THE PLANET. More than China and Russia put together.

      • Well, I dunno, but suspect its easier to get whacked there instead of imprisoned. Let’s not start assuming they’re just nice guys. I recall 10-15 years ago when Singapore executed two Brits for drug possession. Not murder or mayhem, not in the heat of the moment, simple possession, and legally executed. They’re not in prison, see?

      • That’s not true. China has more. They just refuse to release their numbers. And you think Russia really releases its real numbers? They still have full functioning Gulags out in Siberia.

  16. I realize LE sometimes has to deal with really bad guys. This isn’t the way to do it.

    Trouble is, that it’s starting to look like EVERYONE but a cop is a “really bad guy.” At least as far as the SWAT people are concerned.

      • Yes!! I just looked again and it looks like common sense is now prevailing. Enough of this damn Stockholm Syndrome that the nation has been suffering from all this time.

  18. Stoo-pid. If you’re doing an Entebbe reenactment, maybe a no-knock is called for. Otherwise, nix.

  19. It reads “The TRU was beginning to breach the window…”

    The window! Why in the name of tactical operatorness were they attempting a window entry?

  20. No sympathy. Kick my door in and someone is going to die. Whether it’s you or I doesn’t mean a whole lot but I intend to make it you. Hopefully the charges are dropped.

  21. Yeah I agree why didn’t the cops just wait until they left. This no-knock crap smacks of secret police tactics. Everybody’s guilty until proven innocent ( or shot ).

  22. I don’t believe that an officer deserved to die and three others shot for the crimes perpetrated by the brass and the judicial system.

    The higher-ups, the judges and the prosecutors were culpable, and now a man is dead.

    Dynamic entry is nothing more than a home invasion under color of law. They have to stop for the sake of everyone concerned, officers included.

    • “Dynamic entry is nothing more than a home invasion under color of law.”

      PERFECT, Ralph. But the cops carrying these things out are seen as mere shock troops in a much larger game. One I’m afraid looms in our near future. I’m far from the only one that can feel it coming.

    • Have to agree with the “higher ups” being responsible, especially the judiciary.

      It is curious to recall that the initial use of no-knocks, which went against almost every American’s sensibilities, were brought on by attempts to bust the rackets, specifically the “policy racket,” numbers running. Drug trade brought the concept back to life, cubed. Both activities were/are highly profitable, and as far as I can see the “war” on drugs is chiefly fought because people in government and competitors in the leisure industries resent the riches of those who run numbers or sell drugs. They don’t really mind a person gambling (lotteries) or taking an addictive drug to feel good (Xanax, synthetic opioids like Oxicodone) so long as the status quo agencies and professions get the take. So it’s about envy. And it’s about building up a police force large enough and brutal enough to put down any popular uprising that might threaten, well, people with lots of money or claims on the taxpayer (treasury bond holders, banks, government pension claimants, etc).

      • So, these goons who go around kicking in doors and terrorizing (often innocent) people bear no responsibility for their actions?

        • It’s not really fair to call it a “death penalty”, Ralph. This is more like a self defense killing. Of course, I don’t have any way of knowing if the inhabitants of the house knew they were officers invading their home. However, I can make a pretty good guess that a fair number of occupants of a house embroiled in a ‘no-knock raid’ could honestly have reasonable fear of serious bodily harm or death at the hands of unknown assailants. This would be self defense and not a death penalty. They would be shooting to stop a threat and not to execute. People do die in self defense situations and it’s not considered an execution. There is a world of difference.

          • Past mine too! But I just watched a documentary that blew me away, and I probably wouldn’t have been asleep by now anyway.

  23. As many have posted here tonight, no knock warrants are stupid, If someone breaks into an officers home we would be saying the officer had the right to shoot. Unfortunately, the shoe is on the other foot, the bad guys home got invaded and so the bad guy actually had the right to shoot. If you want the madness to stop, stop the no knock warrants. You can’t tell me that there wasn’t a better way to solve this. You pay the price sometimes by doing things this way. My condolences to the family. It is my hope that no one else has to die because of doing forced entries this way.

    • What in the world leads you to think the occupants were the “bad guys”? Were any drugs found? And if so, please explain what about them made the occupants “bad”?

      • Do not even try to make me look like the prick here. I wasn’t the one that shot the officer, or the one being shot at. The “bad guy”, is a person that the police are after that is all. I was not there so i do not know what was or was not found.

        • If they had found anything, the news certainly would have reported it, to make the occupant look more like the bad guy. I looked at three or four articles on the incident, and none of them said anything about entering through a window, a no-knock raid, OR any drugs or supplies found during the search. I knew what you meant about the roles being reversed… Looks like this guy may not actually be “bad”, though.

          • Yea he was just supposedly a guy that dealt in drugs according to the warrant and decided to defend his home from people entering without knocking, which i would probably have done myself. These do need to end before more people get killed.

            • And a lot more people will get killed, while we debate intricacies of cold-blooded killings.

              • Yes it is sad when we allow police officers to do NKW’s on people just so they can catch people before they destroy evidence. It’s pretty barbaric. Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?
                Tim McVeigh was treated better than this. Right up to the time he was put to death.

              • If indeed he was. McVeigh was some sort of military intelligence deep operative.

                Look this up, if you dare: 4 full years before the OKC bombing, the brother of Oklahoma Governor Frank Keating, wrote a novel about the bombing of a federal building, by a character named TOM McVEY, who, like Tim McVeigh, was caught when he was pulled over for speeding!

                The same book also featured a TWA 800-type plane explosion, AND, for good measure, a World Trade Center-type event!

                It’s SCARY down the rabbit hole, boys and girls. Don’t go down there unless you can handle what you’ll find…..

      • Hey, I think I’ve got an even better question than “were any drugs found?” How about, how did all this shooting in the dark conclude, with the shooter completely uninjured as far as I can tell? Do you think he ran out of ammo and surrendered? My suspicion is that when the cops IDENTIFIED themselves, he stopped shooting, in which case they had better have found drugs, or he is going free, no possible better evidence that he thought they were home invaders/thieves/killers coming for him than he ceased action once they ID’d themselves instead of continuing to shoot until he was killed.

  24. Have you ever heard of a no-knock raid on a corrupt or criminal official?

    “And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? After all, you knew ahead of time that those bluecaps were out at night for no good purpose. And you could be sure ahead of time that you’d be cracking the skull of a cutthroat.”
    ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago 1918-1956

    Condolences to the family; but we’ve all heard this “just following orders” excuse way too many times in hindsight of tragedies/ slaughters/ genocide…

    • Thank you for the quote. архипелаг ГУЛАГ was one of the seminal reading experiences of my lifetime. Americans tend to point to the Nazies as the syn qua non of police state tactics. Rubbish. Leninism and Stalinism set the pace for the approval-by-cowardly-inaction of absolutely stupefying brutality.

      And yes, step by step, we’re headed in that direction. And we’re growing our own Nomenclatura on the cuff, with borrowed money. And we’re legitimizing the stripping of rights from a large mass of the poor through felonization. And onward. But it all makes so much sense to those owning big pieces of American productivity and those who serve those owners. They have lost perspective. And they’ve lost perspective through the love of filthy lucre accumulated all to often through perogatives handed over by purchased legislators or won through stuffing their boards of directors and then asking these now-friendly boards for another million stock options “because they deserve it.” Even the professional investor finds himself calling EBITDA…EBITDAT..earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation, amortization, and theft (by the executive suite).

  25. What if had been the wrong house?

    “John Adams, 61, was shot and killed by police during another “wrong house” raid. His wife witnessed the event and indicated that the police did not announce themselves before forcing entry. As a result, the homeowners believed they were under attack by home invaders. Adams did what any Tennessee homeowner would likely do in that case — he fired a warning shot with a shotgun, the perfect home defense firearm. – See more at: http://silverunderground.com/2012/09/too-often-no-knock-warrants-kill-innocent-homeowners/#sthash.Ek9jFG1S.dpuf

  27. Sometimes I think I’m being silly to want a Tokarev because it will defeat Kevlar. And sometimes I don’t.

    • The 7.62x25MM will defeat Kevlar, but not reliably. However, especially at close range (such as a home invasion in this case), 5.56MM M855 ball — and of course the allegedly more effective M855A1 when it inevitably comes to the civilian market as surplus and contact over-runs like its predecessor does — will not only defeat soft armor but most hard armor as well. Even from shorter barrels, at that.

    • I disagree. The man’s family must have known that he was a thug (no, I’m not using “thug” and “cop” interchangeably here), and they still supported it (presumably). I have no sympathy for them, and I rejoice at the death of a thug with a badge.

    • I agree, though I don’t find myself wondering how many because I know the number is large, the cost to police-community relations enormous, and class aspect sickening.

      There’s no War on Drugs at the local Pharmacies. Physicians want control, the Pharmacies want a percentage for handling, and they both get what they want. They both contribute to addiction, but apparently only of the “good” kind, which means the certified legal sort, on which taxes are paid and the professions get their take. I wouldn’t be surprised if there were more opioid pills for sale on the street passed from pharmacies on ‘legitimate’ scripts…than there are doses of heroin and meth.

  31. These are just plain asinine ways to serve a search warrant.
    We discussed these time and again and always came to the same conclusion.
    Just sit down the street and wait for them to go to the store or wherever, then box them in with a couple of marked patrol cars.
    Funny how it always worked.

    • But then they couldn’t waddle around in their black, Darth Vader tacticool gear and get the rush of kicking in doors.

    • I am perfectly fine with that, in particular the MARKED patrol cars. Block me in with a couple black SUVs with plainclothes goons erupting, and I bet we’re going at it again.

      • Damn straight! There are too many former blacked out or white out cop cars in the hands of gang bangers and they still have the cop tires, hub caps and spot lights on the vent window.

  32. I sympathize with cops, but a no knock raid is a set up for exactly what they got. Damn shame! Somebody has trained them wrong. Fire the Killen chief for allowing this stupidity. Police need to outsmart the criminal, not out adrenaline them, or this is the result. We have the right to protect our homes. As others have pointed out, what’s the difference between a no knock raid and a B & E?

    • I’d agree on the firing, but for a different reason. The reasonably predictable difference in cost for using SWAT or SRT with no-knocks, verses using brains and effective low-tempo tactics, should make it clear that the quiet, intelligent, low-tempo tactics save the taxpayer money, while not increasing the harm to the public flowing from crime. “Public servants” who ignore cost in the operations they supervise deserve to be fired, though that deserved result is not easily obtained in any aspect of government.

  33. Not having enough information here.
    If t were me with my non criminal background and being a completely innocent civilian of anything……..
    Im such a do gooder its sickening.
    As I also live alone and don’t entertain stay over guests to frequently anymore.
    Id shoot 1st and worry about it later.
    If anyone was or is breaking into my house……….as it should be.

    • You post on this site. To some, you aren’t innocent. For all have fallen short. There will always be someone to justify bad behavior by the State. If it should, Lord forbid, happen to you… there will be someone, somewhere finding reasons to justify it based upon your behavior, background, circumstances created by you, etc.

      • Yep; there are various alpha bet agencies that have written official reports saying that gun-owning, second amendment supporting, constitution believing law abiding citizens should be classified as domestic terrorists.

        The mass arrests with no knock raids would quickly begin once this designation is made into law. Then the people would have a choice to make; sit and wait for the No- knock at the door at night or be proactive.

  34. I’ve met several fine LEOs while learning to use my firearms, and I wouldn’t wish them ill. That said: damn these no-knock raids. They leave homeowners in a lose-lose situation.

    I absolutely hope the attrition cost to police is staggering, and makes them back down from the practice. Unfortunately, that’s so unlikely given the current paramilitary mindset.

    I wonder what the escalation will be; dynamic entry with a tank, “to keep our officers safe”?

    • “dynamic entry with a tank, “to keep our officers safe”?

      That’s what they did at Ruby Ridge.

  36. How is a no knock entry into a residence any different from an ambush, assault, home invastion?
    My first impluse on hearing a flash bang, is not “oh must be LEOs raiding the wrong house, let me just lay here with my hands behind my head, until they sort it out” Nope, most folks are going to grab weapon of choice and start defending the castle. I’m too busy being perplexed at the sheer stupidity of breaking into someone’s house in the wee hours to have sympathy to those injured/killed. That is typically what is going to happen if a house is broken into, especially if point of entry is though a window – that just screams criminal activity.

    • The whole idea of a flashbang is to stun and disorient the targets. Otherwise I very well MIGHT assume it was dumbass cops with the wrong address. Confused and disoriented, I’ll be the one over there emptying his mag at you.

  37. People who do not own guns knowingly or unknowingly, live at the mercy (or whim) of the Government and criminal. For some reason they choose to abdicate responsibility for. It seems that the system reflects the will of the people.

  38. From all the facts I can gather by nosing around the interwebz, it appears that the cops were trying to break in a ground-floor window in the rear of a four-up/four-down apartment building on a street lined with such buildings up and down the length of it on both sides. Google has street-view images of the buildings on the street, and the satellite view shows that it is a pretty densely inhabited neighborhood.

    Yep, what a wonderful place for letting loose with lots of stray rounds hither and yon. Cops obviously don’t give a rat’s ass about public safety if they are executing a “dynamic entry” where guns will be fired in a neighborhood like this if there are other options.

    • Yes. Look up the FBI-sponsored murder of Black Panther Fred Hampton, shot dead in his bed. And up to this event, up to tomorrow.

      Look that up. Nothing has changed, except it has gotten worse, not better.

  39. The more common no-knock raids become, the more these things will happen, which will in turn lead to even more heavy-handed tactics. Make no mistake, there is a war coming. Arm up while you can, and be ready to pick a side, because it will rage everywhere.

    • I have no doubt that it’s coming. I feel it right before I fall asleep (if indeed I manage to), and it’s there when I wake up. There is no escaping the feeling.

  40. The whole idea of a “no knock” raid being done in the name of preserving evidence is just idiotic. As is the whole idea of the “war” on drugs. The risk/reward percentage alone isn’t enough to justify using that tactic. I get so tired of hearing about the safety of the officers. Here’s why…nobody asked you to take that job..you weren’t drafted..don’t feel safe? Quit..go find another line of work..I work in heavy industry. We had a hell of a lot more people killed and injured on the job last year than law enforcement did. I’m not pissin or moanin about it. I took the jib for the pay and I accept whatever risks there are that come with it. If I felt worried or unsafe, I’d find another line of work. Seems it doesn’t work that way for LEO’s though. They want more power to trample peoples rights in the name of officer safety. Of course if they get to gear up and look “tacti-cool” doing it I guess that makes them feel special too. The whole thing is one big freakin costume party joke.

    • +1

      And, with asset forfeiture, these activities generate money for government. The money made by government, by the industry, and others drive this stuff. The individual officers may get the thrill, paycheck, and delusional belief that they are doing “good things” but, I believe that money, power, and conditioning are at the root.

    • “The war on drugs” is a clever and cynical ruse. If we are honest with ourselves, we can grasp what it really is: a war on the competition.

      Google this story, from yesterday: “Marijuana legalization in American states hurting Mexican drug cartels”.

      • Someone connected to the FBI has assured me that there are far more vehicles stopped and searched attempting to enter Mexico from the US than attempting to enter the US from Mexico, because entering the US all they’re carrying is drugs, it is the return trip where the vehicle is loaded up with cash money, which is what the cops are after.

        • Yeah. Cash seizures constitute a kind of “black budget” for police departments.

  41. No knock raids should be left in iraq , afgan, and war zones .

    not in the, or what use to be United States of America

    What happen to work smarter not harder

    lets shoot the whole place up and storm in there ..

    or hey lets use the few little brain cells we have and accomplish this the best way possible

    • They been around since at least the 80’s and its only idiots and entitled idiots that shoot… not like they don’t yell police and you dont get a opsie my bad… you get death..

      • turns out when you break my window in during the wee hours of the night I’m entitled to open fire.

      • Amazingly, I found out in a book that I’m reading that this no-knock foolishness actually started in the late ’60s and ’70s, and has crazily escalated since the ’90s.

      • As a matter of fact, in a great number of instances THEY DO NOT identify themselves. Shall I just assume they are police breaking into to throw me a surprise party?

  42. No knock has been around since the 80’s and Supreme Court has ruled you cannot shoot a cop and only a idiot or a idiot high on drugs would do something so stupid because now he will get death.

    One more idiot screwing it up for all the real gun owners.

    makes me laugh at how many people can’t even make out who the person is before killing them… Tells me they have major mental issues or are blind

  44. These days most Leos fall somewhere between being a d1cks or @ssholes.

    Therefore I am officially splitting the difference and referring to LEO from this point forward as “Taints”.

    • ROTFL. But I still throw up a little when people continue to associate the majestic lion with taints by way of an initialism for law enforcement officer. LE is as far as I will take it. Please consider leaving real leos out of it.

      • You are right JIO. “Le Taints” sounds a lot better.

        This way the noble lion remains unoffended, with the side benefit of having the new name sound much more sophisticated.

        “This is Le Taints! We have a search warrant!”

        • If they’re cracked up, rolling on the floor, they can’t offer much resistance.

  45. Was a deputy , if they would have just had officers standing by for when these subjects came out of the house to get into their vehicle then initiated the warrants , maybe this would not have happened , there are getting to be more of these warrants being served and soon there will be more and more of these officers being killed , it goes back to a lot of drug dealers have enemies or addicts trying to steal drugs from them , some of it goes to the fact that folks are going to protect themselves from other criminals and perception is the key , now if it were my house being raided , which would be the law having the wrong address , If it were a no-knock warrant how could I know myself I would think it was a burglar trying to break in , of course I would defend my castle as it be ! The Capital murder charge will probably be kicked back to another charge , the two crimes clause won’t be able to stick . Be prepared and ready . Keep your powder dry .

  46. Also let me add , when we did go on raids if we had to , we would go through the door we would be yelling Sheriffs department we many times over , we did not go through windows because we had enough sense to know that the residents would think we could be burglars trying to rob them , I don’t know who planned this raid but they screwed the pooch on it going in a window , what you do on a raid such as this is you go through the door warning the residents of who you are , you have officers standing by outside windows and other exits in case said residents decide to try to flee , not going into a house like you are trying to ROB them . Be prepared and ready . Keep your powder dry .

    • So? Plenty of criminals yell “Police” when breaking in someone’s door. Stay the hell out of people’s houses and do your job with some professionalism.

    • Something makes me wonder if the footsoldiers aren’t being sent in to be killed, so as to raise the tension between cops and citizens even higher.

  47. This is just another byproduct of the failed war on drugs. The judge that signed the no-knock warrant and the officer who applied for it need to be charged with murder.

    • Arguable, unless nothing illegal was found (or brought along). There is supposed to be “probable cause”, if there is no crime it is clear that requirement was not met. Of course, with a death, now, they can probably find some illegal drugs around the station, suddenly attributable to this fatal entry.

  48. Just one question:Did they find anything ilegal in that house or they just attack wrong house???

  49. No where does it say that this was a “No knock” raid….lots of assuming going on…,.here is a thought don’t break the law to begin with then police won’t show up at your home and serve a warrant.

    • In what world to police serving anything but a no knock warrant attempt entry through the window? If a judge didn’t sign a no knock warrant for this then the actions of the officers was a criminal one. If a no knock warrant was signed then it’s a no knock raid. I can’t tell if you’re being intentionally obtuse or if your reading comprehension is just flawed at this early hour. Have a cup of coffee and read it again.

      As to the second part; ever heard of police raiding the wrong house? A long list of examples can be had simply by Googling ‘police raid wrong house’, including this gem: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/05/06/new-york-police-keep-raiding-dead-mans-home-lawsuit-says/
      In which police have raided the home of a dead man more than a dozen times over 8 years attempting to serve an arrest warrant.

      Typical warrant service includes a knock at the door and a request to come out, usually by daylight. This sort of middle of the night in through the window activity over a drug warrant of all things is getting people killed; cops, citizens, innocents. Anyone who could support these types of tactics for the sole purpose of obtaining evidence of a suspected victimless malum prohibitum offense is either an idiot, a supporter of tyranny, or just so evil as to take joy in the senseless carnage that ensues.

      • Ardent, remember that there have also been instances of the WARRANT being issued for the wrong arrest, either typo or confusion. IOW, where the police make no mistake, raid the house which the warrant directs them to raid. The opportunities for screw-ups are many and varied.

    • Here’s another thought……

      …don’t serve a warrant through the bathroom window at 3am and you probably won’t get a face full of hot lead.

    • So where you live, cops serve warrants by knocking on the window in the middle of the night? And what was the “crime” of the people who lived there – “hosting a rowdy no-knock raid party”?

      There is nothing about any drugs being found. You can damn well believe that if there was, we’d know about it.

  50. This was Not a no knock!! Maybe if more of you people got involved in your neighborhoods and helped instead of turning a blind eye to the thugs and low life’s around you then this man would have wen

    • There is a ‘knock’ and there is a ‘knock’.

      Did they give a quick, light tap just to satisfy the legal department – then try to immediately barge right on in at an early hour? That sounds like a no-knock raid in a practical sense.

      Or did they give the door a good pounding and then allow the resident a reasonable time to wake up, orient themselves, come to the door and ask ‘who is there’?

      There is a difference. Hopefully the court sees a tape in this case. If it is closer to the first scenario then the prosecutor is toast.

    • What would make you think it wasn’t a “no-knock”? You think they knocked on his window?

  51. Went home to his family! So since all of you want such a change then get off your asses and step up to help instead of hinder while you inaccurately judge!!

    • Step up and help you do what? Eliminate No-Knock warrants for malum prohibitum offences to reduce officer mortality and restore the rights of the citizenry? Help you restore the 4th amendment rights of the people? Help you end the disastrous and corruptive asset forfeiture laws that turn police departments into organized robbery gangs? Help you end the destructive, divisive and utterly unwinnable war on drugs? Sure, I’ll do that.

  52. It seems that these no knock raids are deadlier to the police than a standoff. Was this raid legitimate since I do not see them being charged for the alleged crime that caused the no knock raid in the first place. Had they knocked they would have not been mistaken and criminals especially since some criminals impersonate police.

  53. It doesn’t matter if the homeowner was a real bad guy or not. No knocks are stupid!

    Cops need to understand that they are not Rambos and anyone with a brain knows it’s very difficult to make the correct decisions under stress, any stress.

    Huntersville, NC has 82 officers of different rank and an additional 10 civilians. Their SWAT is 12 officers. The town had about 47,000 population in 2010. Their speed trap on state 73 is the biggest moneymaker.

    How well do they train? Not much. They are right next to Charlotte which has a much better set up for SWAT but every police chief needs their SWAT.

    The Heritage Foundation says there are over 70,000 no knock home invasions by police each year.

    If I remember correctly the reason the SC said it was okay for no knock was the bad drug dealers would flush the evidence down the toilet!

    OTOH, in 2010, the CDC said over 16,000 people died that year from PRESCRIPTION drug overdoses. But the MSM gets too much money from advertisers, doctors make money from selling drugs and which pharma company doesn’t want EVERY drug to require a prescription.

    The police are being used as tools for these entities. So if we end the war on drugs and legalize them, all the for profit jail companies, the civil servants running jails, the courts (judges and staff), et al LOOSE money! So does big pharma and the medical community.

    We have to continue no knocks and the war on drugs “for the children”, as Adolf used to say.

    No knocks will continue, more cops will die so the answer to preventing more police casualties is to dynamite the suspects house. . . .after that bring in a Warthog to take the neighborhood out.

    If you think I’m wrong, police in Miami shot 377 rounds at two guys trapped in a car (the cops legitimately thought they were armed). 2 dead guys in the car, 2 cops shot by their own people. 377/23=16.4 rounds per cop. Suspiciously close to emptying their magazines.

    So what happened to shooting a few times and seeing where you hit, THINK then act as needed? Don’t go to Miami I guess.

    Like I’ve said, the police will kill you!

    • “…the courts (judges and staff), et al LOOSE money!”

      Then they’d better tighten it up! (Sorry, couldn’t resist)

  54. This type of activity on the part of the police is simply an extension of the overall militarization of local, state, and federal agencies that got a boost from the War on Drugs and really took off after the Patriot Act. This, coupled with a strong desire to for these SWAT units to justify their own existence, makes for a dangerous combination for everyone involved.

    If you really stop and think about whose life is on the line everyday in these scenarios, evidence would lean heavily in favor of the criminal as the endangered entity in many cases. There are groups of heavily armed police constantly plotting the criminal’s demise; and not very often is the converse true; most criminals have a completely different agenda not involving the police.

    Additionally, in many cases, these so-called “criminals” are involved in consensual and victimless drug transactions, not ongoing violent acts warranting the violent and armed response that they seem to provoke so often.

    Perhaps, if we spent the money that’s currently being wasted in the failed War on Drugs into both determining the root causes of drug use as well as the treatment of the mental and environmental factors involved, we would come out ahead financially, as well as making improvements in our society as a whole as opposed to tearing it down and building a police state in its stead.

    • In the event one of these SWAT teams hits the house of a person who is actually prepared in advance for them they’ll take 100% casualties. The reasons for this are multiple and diverse but include such things as effective barriers, booby traps and a suspect sufficiently barricaded and armed to allow him to fend off several waves of entry teams. This alone is an argument against their usefulness. In the event one person goes mad and takes a hostage or bunkers in it’s one thing, but the general low body count of SWAT serving warrants is a good indication they aren’t needed. Given a couple $100s and a day or so I could covertly convert any residence into a deathtrap for dynamic entry, and my skills aren’t highly specialized (however I wont discuss the particulars where the wrong people might see them).

      Taking suspects while they are away from their dens before serving search warrants is just common sense. Kick the door and flash bang the house isn’t a tactic that should be employed in anything but a life or death situation (kidnap, hostages, etc). It’s counter to officer safety and counter to the basic rights of an American citizen. If increasing casualties, on both sides, more law suits, more bad press and more condemnation is what it takes to end this practice then I must wish for more, because it has to end.

  55. http://kdhnews.com/news/crime/officer-involved-in-friday-shooting-dies/article_a7b4402c-d950-11e3-a18c-0017a43b2370.html

    This article, at least, notes that they were trying to breach a window at 530AM. Please see the accompanying photo of the high quality training that the SWAT team receives. Winner for the person that spots the highest number of firearms safety mistakes.

    Are they sure that the guy in jail actually did the shooting? or did friendly fire bring down this officer? might have been if they play the way they practice.

  56. As a police office in Texas for 23 years I am truly ashamed of the people on this web site, this office did not ask to die, but he did he gave his life so others may sleep well at night. SHAME ON ALL OF YOU!!!! The reason now does not matter, what matters is his life of honor and duty, as for you that were glad he is gone, you can visit the devil in hell where you belong. And just for the record he gave his life willingly for everyone, will you. I BET NOT cowards!!!!

    • I’ve worked in public safety and I still work with many members of law enforcement. I truly think that the vast majority of posters here, myself included, absolutely mourn the loss of this officer, mourn for his family, recognize the sacrifice that everyone in public service might make for us.

      What makes us angry, though, is that this fallen officer fell victim not just to gunshots but to failed policies, to bad tactics. He need not have died. Breaking in a window at 530am is not a sound tactical move unless you have a pretty damn good reason to do so.

      My local PD just arrested someone on narcotics and burglary charges. Watched for him to leave his home and arrested him, in the street, away from hiding places, away from others that might be in the home, away from weapons he may have had in the home. Safer for everyone and it did not end it tragedy.

      The over-militarization of law enforcement, the no-knock “because we can do it, we will” mentality, is what killed this fallen officer as much as the bullet. And because it was a preventable death it makes us that much sadder and madder as well.

      • No, the majority of people here do not mourn the stormtrooper. Read the comments and you’ll see that. Most people mourn the innocent people who are killed in their homes during botched, wrong address raids.

    • I’ve always objected to the phrase “he sacrificed his life” or variants on that theme. In the Marines, I’ve never met anyone who willingly sacrificed themselves, though it has happened and those people get big medals. Almost always, lives are taken, not given. I would much rather serve with that type.

      As for the police giving their lives, what rubbish. Unions see to it that their safety is more important than ours.

      As for calling the citizens “cowards,” I think that is a great example of the hubris that the police in our country have. We are not cowards. They are thugs, looking down on us, demanding to be given respect and obedience.

      Remember that the courts have ruled that it is legal to exclude smart people from the police department, with smart meaning IQ’s in excess of a measely 110. It shows in their on line writing when their objection to complaints is to call others cowards.

    • Also, I do not rely on the police to allow me to sleep peacefully at night, so don’t hurt your arm patting yourself on the back for that one, either.

    • I live in Texas. If you are the example of the consummate professional who is going to come bursting through my window at 5:30 a.m. in the name of public safety…well now I AM afraid.

    • …so others may sleep well at night.

      I personally sleep less well knowing that TWAT teams can make a mistake with an address and bust in my home guns a blazing. I have ZERO chance of willingly committing a felony but a very NON-ZERO risk that some country bumpkin tool is mistakenly coming through my window.

      SHAME ON ALL OF YOU!!!!

      Nope, shame on you. You are now an increasing PART OF THE PROBLEM rather than the solution. If you knew what was good for you you’d learn something and ask your boss and yourself why a segment of the population that has traditionally supported the police are now against you. You may want to ask yourselves “Are we missing something? Did we go to far?” But I know you won’t do that point of self-reflection. Maybe you’ll have time when you’re recovering from get a face full in some future no-knock

      The reason now does not matter, what matters is his life of honor and duty,

      You can only pull the honor card if you were doing honorable actions. Doesn’t apply in most no-knock circumstances.

      And just for the record he gave his life willingly for everyone, will you. I BET NOT cowards!!!!

      Oh Boo Hoo. I bet most Nazi’s felt the same way.

    • Sorry HB, the issue is bad police policy and even worse execution of duty. Glory and patriotism have little to do with what happened.

    • No, HB. Shame on YOU and any officer who thinks this is acceptable behavior in a civilized society. I didn’t ask for this officer to “sacrifice himself”, especially not for something as stupid as drugs which needs to be legalized anyways. Didn’t we learn from prohibition? Stop wasting taxpayer money so you can pretend to be a commando and risk the lives of the people in your community that pay your salary. You’re fighting criminals that your war on drugs created and we should be thankful?

      With all due respect, go take your snake oil somewhere else sir. You may be an officer of the law but you are in no way above me or anyone else in station. Remember that.

    • I don’t mean to be callus but I’d sleep better at night with a suspected drug dealer on the loose than with cops breaking down doors in the middle of the night. The former frightens me not at all, the latter is terrifying in terms of personal autonomy and security but even more so in the way it violates the rights of the people. I agree there is a tragedy here, but I cannot say that there isn’t a social and political utility in the death of an officer in these types of raids. Just stop kicking in doors in the middle of the night to seize evidence of victimless crimes and this wont have to happen. There is a serious problem here, and it’s police overreach and the destruction of the basic right of a person to be secure in their person papers and property. If you care so little for the civil rights of the people that you’re willing to be involved in such a fandango, all the better that you’re not around to do it again to someone else.

    • The cowards are the ones breaking in people’s (often the wrong address) doors in the middle of the night, and killing innocents.

      Also, everyone here is responsible for their own safety and defense, they don’t get to call in swarms of badgegang backup for everything. “Cowards”, indeed.

      “Sleep well at night”??? Surely not the people who are being invaded by these morons at night!

      He didn’t give his life for anyone; he’s not Jesus. Get the hell out of here with that noise.

    • I think we’re hearing the sound of a man waking up to realize his vocation isn’t as honorable as he thought it was. It has to hurt, to find out that what you thought was a noble cause is derided not only by criminals who could be dismissed but by a majority of the law abiding, the patriots, the people with whom you thought you stood.

      Next time you put the uniform on think about this: We hope you’re a good man and one of conscience. If you are, we hope you do the right thing (hint: no knock raids hoping to find drugs isn’t the right thing). If you don’t, or can’t, or wont stand up for what’s right then you’re a instrument of tyranny, a thug, and an enemy of the people. You’ll forgive patriots for not shedding tears over the loss of one such instrument of tyranny. We just feel a little safer the less of you there are.

      • To my way of thinking, a bunch of Tactical Teds breaking into a family’s home in the middle of the night, without identifying themselves, is PRECISELY “asking to die”. Ask, and it shall be granted.

    • Don’t crawl your arse through my window. I don’t conduct criminal activity and have no reason to expect paramilitary raids in the dark of night. No one forces them to do the job. They chose it. The streets aren’t a damn bit safer due to this idiotic raid.

  57. how many officers would have died if they knocked first? Officers were “just beginning to breach the window”. the criminal opened fire immediately-had the weapon in his hand, or right in the open within reach and ready to kill. Perp was ready to initiate violence the second he felt threatened and did so. No hypotheticals here.

    Second guessing cops is a full time hobby it seems. Taking these guys outside? how many stray rounds would have flown as the perp “defended” himself? Unless you think this guy leaves his weapon at home and follows the laws, except for the ones he’s broken already.

    Keeping it contained, only the officers and the criminals were at risk. The officer died because of that desire, making it easy for hair trigger killers to open fire. That’s a risk and a tragedy, and part of the job. So people can complain about them later.

    • Rick, you make the mistake of calling the occupant of the home a criminal. We know no such thing and the cops had no way of knowing who was even in the house when they acted like criminals and broke in the house through a window.

      If I’m visiting a friend at his home and am awoken to the sound of a window breaking, I’d be inclined to protect myself. Even if the target of the raid was the only person there, he is still a suspect and not a criminal. That distinction is the very basis of everything that the police do.

      Remember too that not everyone has good hearing, so shouting “police” is not a brilliant idea. Even if the shouting were coherent, the occupants aren’t guaranteed to hear. My wife is deaf and I have a lot of deaf friends. If someone were to enter my home in the wee hours when I’m not there, my wife would assume it was a burglar unless they were very careful to identify themselves. Coming in through the window is good way to get shot, but waiting until the sun comes up and waiting outside until you catch her eye is a good way to get invited to have some iced tea.

      I’m sick of apologists for the police spouting that police safety is paramount. It isn’t. The safety of the public is paramount, and no knock raids put the people at risk.

      • You’re damn right. This is why we pay their salary, to take these risks to remain morally superior to that of a thug or vigilante. If you don’t have the guts to take it then quit and find another field to work in. That’s the problem with our police these days, too many cowards and not enough real men and women. That’s a generalization of course, there are some fine officers out there but I keep hearing a bunch of whining from these folks about the risks that are inherent in this line of work. You never hear a construction worker stepping on a soap box to complain about how dangerous a table saw is.

    • Keeping it contained, only the officers and the criminals were at risk.

      Oh indeed because we all know how bulletproof the interior walls are of a multi-family townhouse is.

      Jeez what a tool.

  59. ” There are companies you’ve never heard of which have more employees than League City has residents.” Okay, I’m game. Name a company I have never heard of that has more than 83,560 employees.

    Koch Industries ???

    AB

  60. another one of the countless examples of the absolute ludicrous arms build up of local police departments, posing as “SWAT”: with no real threats to address ones that SWAT was originally designed to address (with all focus on de escalating/force as last resort), in most cases poorly trained ass kickin’ cops are getting ninja suited up every minute, climbing into MRAP’s, bashing down doors, tossing in flash grenades….all to serve warrants! what a farce. And results like this are all too commonplace. Just read Radley Balko’s “rise of the warrior cop”, his 3rd treatise on the subject. Filled with FACTS. And absolutely chocked full of tragic stories of no knock raids executed upon flimsy “snitch” info, attacking innocents, at the wrong house, killing everything from pets to kids to grandmothers. Its heartbreaking. And when these same cops crash into houses, draped in black, and chance upon a disoriented yet armed homeowner terrified of dying at the hands of what they believe are home invaders, they kill one of them, and then get charged with capital murder. More lives destroyed. For what? Over a warrant that could have been served in a completely different manner Just that thing happened in Utah, when police used a “tip” from a jealous ex girl friend regarding “pot plants in the house” to no knock an Iraq US combat veteran’s house. He thought he was being invaded by criminals, and put 2-3 cops down, then got charged for capital murder, and hung himself in jail….he had 2 tiny pot plants, growing for himself in attempt to address the PTSD he contracted while fighting “the war on terror”. Except the real terror belonged to all involved in this incident-that should never have happened.
    I have worked hard to live in a what most consider a nice area. The police that serve it are first class professionals, responsive, and about the last ones to jump on the chance to grab a bargain (free) MRAP and play soldier. If the chief of police ever gets that wild idea, Mr Balko will be personally coaching myself and 100 others on how to stop that nonsense in its tracks.

  61. Let’s not forget that the affidavit for a search warrant is reviewed and signed by a judge while the LEO raises his hand a swears the information in it is the truth. So some of the blame has to go in that direction too.

    I remember when even a night time search warrant was difficult to get a judge to sign off on. What has changed?

    • Maybe the judges are getting a bigger cut of the forfeitures. That would explain it, right?

    • Sometimes some of the officers are to blame for pressing guys for information during a pinch. There is a good chance that the detective on scene was the one that pressed for the warrant.

  62. The mods must have deleted dozens of jokes about a ‘Detective Dimwittie’ by now?

  63. If the judges that issue the warrants for no knock SWAT raids were held accountable for issuing the warrants on such frivolous information without solid evidence this would cease tomorrow.
    The process of attaining a no knock warrant must meet certain criteria.
    Issuing no knock warrants to anyone that asks for one based on an anonymous tip from an unknown source is not reason enough. When lives are on line there must be more than just hearsay that isn’t submissible in a court of law to obtain such a warrant.
    If the evidence to issue a no knock warrant isn’t submissible in a court of law no warrant should be issued. It’s up to the judge to determine such, not the law enforcement officer requesting the warrant. The responsibility of issuing such a warrant lies solely on the judge that should be held accountable for their actions.

    • And a better mechanism for impeaching such judges needs to be put in place. After a handful of impeachments, watch the brothers of the bench suddenly become sticklers, as they should have been to begin with.

  64. I said it about the michigan eru that posted a picture of themselves in marsoc dress, and one woman even confirmed my suspicions about them

    most of these guys were probably at one time in the military, and were probably deployed at one time……….that being said, how many of you have seen the movie hurt locker

    yes that movie had a real life theme, most of us that have been deployed miss the action and miss how everything meant something everyday from the time you woke up to…..well just everyday

    the military taught us how to turn those instincts and actions on, they dont teach how to turn it off….I am slowly teaching myself just that

    swat teams, STAND DOWN , you are not in the military

  65. You are listed with Negative or Poor Rating on the internet; Your current rating on the internet needs immediate attention. Your profile is not trustworthy and people will avoid using your services. Don

  66. You are listed with Negative or Poor Rating on the internet; Your current rating on the internet needs immediate attention. Your profile is not trustworthy and people will avoid using your services. Don

  68. Do Not Be Fooled!

    Again, it is the anti-gun voters at fault, for electing the politicians that put these laws on the books (and the judges that allow them to get away with it.) They, (the whole bunch of them, but ultimately the voters who put these idiots in place). They, any voters that voted for the anti-gun politicians, have another death on their heads if you ask me.

    I have early warning systems in place and guns all over the house, to ensure I survive. Or go out at least drawing down on the bad guys.

    They, the cops, are not good guys in any no knock scenario. Make excuses for anything and again the libs twist it to do what they want.

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