How many have to die before we do something? How many more tragedies does it take before we do something? How more children have to die before this country realizes that Gun-Free Zones create perfect locations for violence? . . .

Mass shootings happen in Gun-Free Zones. Coincidence? There is a simple solution to mass killings. Arm thyself. Not necessarily for personal defense—but thats as good a reason as any—but as a known deterrent. Discussing the recent events with RF, he asked me what the solution was to school shootings. I said arm the teachers. Having armed teachers will act as a deterrent and take the advantage away from an assailant.

Armed security guards at offices, banks, stores, etc. are not about killing violent criminals in the act, they are about deterrence. You can’t stop criminals with laws, you can only stop violence with the fear of armed victims.

As a follow up, RF asked me if there was any precedent. Sure is — Israel. When they were afflicted with plane hijackings, they put armed officers on every plane. Every plane, mind you, not the minimal and random selection the U.S. chose to do. With armed officers on every El Al flight, hijacking stopped. Period.

In the same way, when Israel experience school shootings, they armed the teachers. Guess the result: school shootings stopped. Coincidence? I think not.

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162 COMMENTS

    • Everyone on this site opposes the killing of innocents and none are more innocent than first graders. Assuming Lanza’s goal was a high victim count at his former school, he could have been more effective if he had chosen a knife instead of pistols. Resistance was not a problem and he knew that going in. Had he used a knife or a machete he would have avoided the gunfire that warned others. He planned to die. He chose to use pistols so he could dispatch himself without the pain of stabbing himself. A coward.

      • It now appears he used a rifle to do most of the shooting.
        Bloody media can’t get one damn’ fact right in their rush to be first with the “news”, whether it’s truthful or (more often) not.

        • “It now appears he used a rifle to do most of the shooting.”

          So the initial reports, that the Bushmaster AR was found in his car, were wrong? Every single mention of it has said it was found in the car, up until 4 p.m. today when, according to CNN, the chief medical examiner “said the ‘long weapon’ was used in the shooting, and that the weapon caused all of the wounds that he knew of.”

          Was the “found in his car” part a mistake, a misstatement by law enforcement, or just an example of the media feeding off itself again, like it did early on with the shooter’s name?

          This, from CNN:

          He didn’t say what that weapon was, but a law enforcement source has previously said that the gunman was found dead with next to three guns: a semi-automatic .223-caliber Bushmaster rifle and two pistols made by Glock and Sig Sauer.

          The medical examiner, H. Wayne Carver II, said he personally did postmortem examinations of seven victims’ bodies.

          “All the wounds that I know of at this point were caused by the one weapon,” Carver said.

    • Gun control works if you’re a high earning career politician with some security goons taking care of your protection.

      • One well placed round is all it takes, from 200+ yards, even.

        Or up close an personal. Ask Ronald Reagan , Martin Luther King, Jr or Robert Kennedy.

        Security WILL fail if the perpetrator doesn’t care about surviving the encounter.

  3. To the best of my knowledge the decision to allow teachers to arm themselves rests with the schoolboard/administrators in many districts. That is how I read the Federal Gun Free School Zone Act (states laws surely vary). This seems to me like the best focus for us to begin a grassroots push in our localities. Does anyone know of a district (besides Israel) that allows this?

      • Good point, and they aren’t the only university, but the Federal GFSZA only applies to K-12. I’m looking into my area.

        • The Federal law allows states to exempt CCWers. Georgia law allows teachers to keep weapons locked in their car, but my local school board requires teachers to sign in their contracts that they’ll be fired in they do so.

      • Yep. That would be the CUD campus. The board of Regents had been ordered to permit CCW holders to carry on campus by the state supreme court a few months before the Aurora theater shooting.
        That campus was the one where Holmes went to school, the scene of all his failure and frustration. How strange that instead of shooting up his “armed campus”, Holmes re-directed his anger and violence to a “gun free” theater. A place and victims which had nothing to do with his anger and hatred, but which was so much more conducive to his plans.

        Anti-2 A. radicals will say that the overwhelming number of such shootings in “gun free zones” is mere co-incidence. Strange, how Holmes bypassed several theaters more convenient to his home, which did not have a “gun free policy”, and instead chose the Cinemark.

  5. Lots more. Lots and lots. See, your “public servants” don’t care about how many children die, where they die, how they die. How many brown children have Bush I, Clinton, Bush II, and Obama murdered overseas for no reason? Many thousands. We’re just trained to look at the ” glorious homeland”. They don’t care about you. They do want you completely defenseless however. Unless people desire to take personal responsibility for their safety, this will continue.

    Also, who, unless out of absolute necessity, sends their kids to the government reeducation centers? I love my kids.

  6. I would want teachers and school personnel to be able to defend my children from harm. It should be a contract. I pay, I give you my kids, you are responsible for their safety.

  7. I wouldn’t suggest arming ALL teachers, but would allow those that wanted to carry the option to do so.
    I would suggest carrying concealed; those carrying would have to qualify for CCW and I would direct them toward more training as well. The School District should then post signs/etc. notifying visitors that their teachers MAY be carrying concealed.
    This would be a very good deterrent in my opinion.

    • Armed teachers aren’t the answer unless and until they receive the same firearms training as police officers. Without such training, armed teachers pose a greater daily risk to the students than unarmed teachers – even factoring in the occasional lunatic.

      Just last week, this blog posted an article criticizing the New York City Police Department for insufficient firearms training and skills maintenance. Teachers today have to buy school supplies like pencils and paper from their own salaries. Are we really going to ask these underpaid public employees to buy their own guns, ammo, weapons training, and skills maintenance? Giving a teacher a gun without adequate combat shooting training is like giving them a school bus without adequate driver training – in both situations, fatal tragedies will increase.

      Imagine this scenario: during school, a rapid pop-pop-pop is heard. Armed teachers draw their weapons, check out the hall – and see each other. Shoot, or don’t shoot? You can imagine the scenario several ways, from a student setting off firecrackers to a teacher that cracked and decided to shoot people.

      I expect the annual casualty rate from accidental/mistaken shootings from armed teachers would exceed the current casualty rate from the occasional lunatic. We’d see lots of “the gun went off” deaths, like that dad who accidentally shot his son through careless firearms handling.

      Note: outright bans of firearms won’t stop lunatics from killing children, either: China had a spate of killings on school campuses a while back – there, the assailants used knives. This slowed down the rate at which the people died, as it is much easier to kill quickly with a gun – but multiple kids still died.

    • The un-professional, pompous, angry, spun-up ass is actually right here…
      I carry concealed most everywhere, except to my bar.

      • Forgot to mention how surprised I was that he didn’t jump at the chance to tell us how Glocks are the best, most reliable handguns…

    • I really, really am not a fan of this guy. I almost didn’t make it past the opening line of, “This video is only for real men. If you are not a real man, please turn it off now.” Mainly because it smacks of the pompous bullshit that I dislike about him.

      However, I pushed on. I did as directed, and went back and watched “Active Shooter I,” and then came back and watched this one. God help me, I agree with every. single. word. he. said.

    • The fact that I’m able to carry doesn’t make sense. Yes, I’m able, but it’s against the law. If I’m caught, I lose my gun rights and might spend time in prison. To me, the number of campus shootings isn’t high enough to justify taking the much greater risk of getting arrested. I respect his choices, but he isn’t going to be around to bail me out and to hire a lawyer for me if I make a choice that goes wrong.

      • greg that is a very good point. I can certainly understand the risks involved in carrying where youre not supposed to.

        common sense is a poor defense when it comes to “gun related crimes” like carrying in a school.

  9. All school staff members. In California we had to be finger printed and back ground checked before we worked the first day in school. Admin, teachers, janitors, lunch ladies etc. All had to have clean records or they weren’t there. Encourage these people to tool up and encourage parent volunteers to tool up and help. I am retired and would gladly give part of each day to patrol a local school if I was armed and backed by the law.

  10. While I agree in theory, there’s just no way to ever implement this in our current reality. Our days of dealing with indigenous peoples who are pissed off that we stole their land are long behind us.

    Let’s be honest – we as Americans have become soft. Compared to any other group of our population size in the entire modern world up to right now, we live better on aggregate than anyone ever has. Ever. Most folks couldn’t feed themselves if there were no grocery stores.

    We have (mostly) forgotten that there are times when you might have to kill someone else to stay alive. We have taught peace, love, and understanding – but we forgot to teach that there is also always that tiny percentage of people that just ain’t right in the head. And that you can’t “talk it through” with them.
    How many male teachers do anyone really believe would have the commitment to pull that trigger? Or even carry a gun? How ’bout sweet Suzie your kids’ kindergarten teacher? Can you see her whippin’ out the 9 and drawing down?

    Thankfully a percentage of folks do know that the veneer of civilization is a very thin one and could do it. But, as long as there are circuses and bread, most folks will buy what the government sells them. And believe that there are easy solutions to problems that are inherent to the human condition.

    • Ask those same teachers today. My brother-in-law, who is a teacher, offered to do it after columbine. Administration told him it would not happen.

      • David-p,

        Don’t get me wrong, as I noted there are some who will. My point was that most will not proactively make open themselves to the theoretical plausibility of the scenario. Nor will they prepare for it.

        I have no doubt that a surprising number would be able to do what they have to a the point of crisis. But, when there’s no tools and no training before said point, just a like a fire or tornado….

        • Before 9/11, the idea was to give in to the hostage takers. We learned our lesson then. I suspect that a lot of teachers at all levels would be willing to defend their students and themselves if the law would change.

  11. We complain about the anti’s “blood dancing”. Let’s not do the same thing. Let the families and community grieve now. We can argue later.

  12. El Al security is still on a large number of flights. Not sure about every flight but certainly more than 65%. Also teachers in Israel are armed outside the classroom, so during field trips and such. In the class room I am not sure, they might be CCW. Then again since there is so much obvious open carry in Israel concealed seems to not be noticeable. Then again Israelis kind of take security seriously…

    • Civilians, mostly parents, are the armed watchdogs for Israeli schools.

      Believe they do the same in Thai schools as well.

  13. An immediate armed response at the moment of inception.

    Nothing done before or after can be as effective.

  14. The anti’s will never give up their stance, to do so is to admit there are bad people in their world & it will no longer be the land of oz. Former gov doyle is the kind of person greiving over the killer because now he can’t be rehabilitated. A clash of realities, lets rock, Randy

  15. The wingnuts will never admit that gun-free zones are free-fire zones, and the same soccer moms who outlawed dodgeball will never allow teachers to be armed.

    Of course, the same outrage might not be present if a school has armed mall security, because after all, they have uniforms.

    • Where I currently live, all the schools have a dedicated sworn popo (obviously not the A-team…) on premises – the better to get kids used to living in constant fear of the law and blind obedience to “authority”. Which is of course one of the drivers of these increasingly frequent insane violent outbursts.

      No fighting, no guns, no knives, no smacking, no hitting, no booze, no pot, no smoking fer crissake, no insults, no name calling, no anything without being arrested and charged. All the stuff that generations of Americans learned necessary (sometimes painful life lessons) from are now criminalized, instead of getting you in trouble at the principal’s office.

      As to the uniforms, I’m sure you’re familiar with the science of how that makes average folks obey.

  16. You forget that the shooter had body armor or a bullet proof vest so it is harder to take them down. Plus if the teacher was armed, if caught by surprise then having a gun is not likely to help.
    I can understand the second amendment right you want to defend, but also please admit that if there were no guns available the killer wouldn`t have been able to kill 26 people with a knife or crossbow without being over powered.

      • I know, it was a hypothetical. Just admit that it is easier for someone to kill multiple people in a short period of time with a gun than it is with say a knife or bow. It doesn`t mean there shouldbe gun control but at least admit reality.

        • there is a news story on nbcnews right now where a nut job in China slashed 22 kids and an adult with a KNIFE before he was stopped.

        • Did they all die? Is this common?
          I am not advocating gun control but at least have the intellectual honesty to admit that even if guns were carried/allowed in schools, cinemas etc that incidents like this would still happen.

        • Of course it is a bit easier for a lazy guy spur of the moment. That’s not a point with any depth.

          In reality, that means sweet FA, which I think you grasp. Over 1 million Rwandans were slaughtered in a very short time frame mostly utilizing machetes. Had the populace been armed and able to defend themselves that number simply would not have happened. Historically speaking, only the disarmed die in great numbers. Even the hopelessly outgunned fare better.

          It would take 3.5 Rwandas to populate California alone, and we haven’t seen 1mm gun deaths in the whole US added up over the last 100 years. (Yes, I’m leaving out the Civil War).

          The other reality is that anyone with 120 IQ points to rub together and a true desire to kill tens, hundreds, more, can do so at will. Anywhere on planet Earth. Gasoline, propane, nat gas, nail guns, pipe bombs, not to mention hundreds of poisons that could be introduced to water or food supplies. I could scenario that all day long.

          There is a trade-off with guns, just like cars, planes, or any other tool. Sometimes bad things will happen, but statistics show that that the greater good is served by their existence and access by a wide section of a society.

        • So if we banned 100% of guns in America, we would just see whats going on over in the Middle East. People strapping explosives to themselves and becoming suicide bombers, killings 100’s at a time. Gun control isn’t going to solve the violence issue.

        • And as such if there were no guns then the nutjob would just use Molotov Cocktails or Risen Poison or Arsenic in the food or water.
          Outlawing a weapon used to commit a tragedy does not work for the simple fact that it just makes the perpetrator find a different way to accomplish his goal.
          I, for one, will quit my current job and go to our local school to work as a armed guard(am a veteran, and a combat vet, and a survivor of two DGU’s), and work everyday necessary and needed to help protect the kids.
          They are children! They need our help and guidance and our watching over them as they grow and learn and become adults too!!
          Our government needs to outlaw gun free zones and allow us to protect ourselves and any others who need it!

    • Except the reports of body armor are unconfirmed. And that tactical vests are frequently mistaken for body armor.

      • I would say 95% of the time the media reports mention “body armor” it was just a $15 UTG airsoft “tactical” vest that the wackjob bought online.

    • The reports are saying that many teachers heard the shots and knew what was happening. At that point, an armed teacher could lock the door, get the students against a wall, and take up a position to cover the entrance to the classroom.

      • That’s more realistic. To think that a teacher could outdraw the shooter and miraculously on he would be hurt is not.

        • Lets be realistic, is the insane bad guy a perfect shot, no, no such person exists.

          Lets be realistic, since the police only hit their target 15% of the time shots are fired, are you saying the criminals are better shots, naw, they arent.

          How is it in one week in June 2010, a burglar breaks into an 80 yr old Army veterans apartment and begins shooting. Missing the old man who promptly retrieved his “illegal in Chicago handgun” and killed the POS even though the burglar had suprise on his side.

          Then of course the next week , in the same gun ban paradise CHICAGO another bad guy walks into a convenience store and opens fire on a 60+ plus year old store owner, missing him as so many criminals do, upon which the old man, the store owner, retrieved his ILLEGAL HANDGUN and killed the POS bad guy.

          Wow, two instances of many, many, many we can show how the bad guy even with suprise on their side, failed to harm their intended victim.

          Resistance is not futile and the evidence proves that even when suprised, the good guy can and does outdraw the bad guy.

          • Even putting aside how many people defend themselves, I still agree with you on the more basic idea, that people should have the right. Although we get emotional on the other issues, you (and many other people here) engage in the argument without making personal attacks.

            I tend to troll some of the other people on this board if I feel they are getting too personal, but I think that is all in the spirit of the internet. A good board will allow a certain amount of insults in the name of free speech.

            The points you are making here are a good ones, and should be included in the national discussion. First, should teachers have the right to carry? The second question is similar: If teachers did carry, would it make students more safe or less safe?

            The question of rights is fairly easy to settle. The Second Amendment can be regulated, but it should not be circumvented. “Gun free zones” should be limited to those places where armed guards are provided. Personally, I think more schools should provide armed guards, but not every school has that kind of budget.

            As to the second question, if teachers are willing to agree to additional training, then I think they can make schools safer, on average. I am not wild about gun accidents in school, but I guess on average, the accidents are still less risky than the lone gunman.

            But that is a question for state legislators and statisticians, right? What if it turns out the risks from accidental discharge are even greater than armed lunatics? Do we push for more training, or for fewer guns?

            Michigan now is about to pass a bill that allows concealed carry at school. It is important to note that the bill requires additional eight hours of training, plus additional firing range time, before you can carry in a “gun free” zone. I suspect that will make Michigan schools safer.

            Imagine if Florida passed such a law, though. There would be teachers carrying guns who never sat through a single minute of gun safety class, much less time on the firing range.

            If Florida passed a “bring your gun to school” law, do you suppose that guns would be used more often to defend students, or to settle domestic disputes?

        • “Imagine if Florida passed such a law, though. There would be teachers carrying guns who never sat through a single minute of gun safety class, much less time on the firing range.

          If Florida passed a “bring your gun to school” law, do you suppose that guns would be used more often to defend students, or to settle domestic disputes?”

          Hey now, why the hate for Florida?

          I’m not really a fan of state mandated training, though I simultaneously think and wish everyone should have some training. In this case, I would get behind it. Especially (I don’t know if this is the case with the Michigan law) if the rule extended to college campuses. As an adult student, being legally required to disarm to take class irks the living shit out of me. Especially since it’s a night class, and the campus (which normally has a 10k population during the day) is effectively deserted.

  17. All four shootings that President Obama mentioned in his speech: aurora, the temple, Chicago streets, and the ct school shooting- all Gun Free Zones. Thanks for making our point president, enough said!!

    • Do you really think someone armed would have prevented this? The shooter had the element of surprise and had body armor.

      • Whether or not this event could have been prevented is an unanswerable question. I think the general thrust of this thread is that if there was a reasonable expectation on the part of a prospective killer that there would be armed resistance in their target area, be it a school or other area that is currently a “gun free zone”, then they might be a bit more reluctant to attempt the killing they are pondering.

        Do I think that arming staff and teachers in schools is a comprehensive solution? No, but I think there is certainly merit to the idea.

        • I am glad you are intellectual honest and don`t think arming is a panacea. Would arming deter some people, maybe but I would expect the people who want to kill lots of people (let alone young children) are the sort that do not weigh things rationally. Deterrence works when people are rational.

        • There are no panaceas.

          But there are things that have been shown by science to work over hundreds/thousands of years. That the ability of a potential victim to retaliate effectively is a deterrent is one of them.

        • Mike can hide in the corner like a good little sheep and pray that he doesn’t get his dumb ass head blown off, but I rather be armed and have a chance to try and defend myself.

        • Sure worked here Mike!

          December 17, 1991 Shoney’s Family Restaurant, Anniston, AL: 3 gunmen, 20 hostages, one ARMED customer (Thomas Glenn Terry). Police finally arrived to find one dead robber, one wounded robber and the third had fled when the shooting started. NO INJURED INNOCENTS.

          October 1, 1997, Pearl High School: 1 gunman, 2 murdered, 7 injured: Stopped by ARMED vice principal.

          January 16, 2002, Virginia Appalachian School of Law: 1 gunman, 3 murdered, 3 injured. Killer was stopped when confronted by two ARMED students.

          Nov 20, 2005 Tacoma WA, 20 yr old juvenile delinquent shoots 4 (1 non gun shot wounded) then exchanges shots with an armed civilian wounding him, but then takes 4 hostages and holes up before surrendering to police.

          Feb 12, 2007 Trolley Mall Salt Lake Utah 1 gunman, 4 killed, 5 wounded before on scene off duty policeman shot and killed the heavily armed killer. Hundreds of people still in mall when shooting ended before on duty police arrived.

          Dec 9 2007, Colorado Springs, New Life Church, 1 gunman 2 murdered, 3 injured, gunman stopped when armed woman shoots gunman, who then turns gun on self and commits suicide, while 100 other church members are in church.

          May 4th, College Station Georgia 2 gunman, 10 victims, 1 dead gunman, 1 victim wounded. The 2 thugs robbing a party begin discussing if they have enough bullets to do the job. One man retrieves his firearm, kills one thug, chases the other off.

          Which means it can and will work again!

        • You mean the background check enforced less than 1% of the time by the BATF letting over 99% of felons and crazies go free since 1994 who attempted to buy from a licensed source?

          Do tell mike how you intend to fix that BATF incessent failure!

          • Maybe I have been too quick to dismiss this particular argument by the NRA. The NRA keeps saying that all we really need to do is enforce existing laws.

            There are about 65,000 FFLs in the U.S., and the BATF only has funding to do about 13,000 inspections per year. Let’s all get together and agree that the number should be at least one per FFL per year.

            Let’s say that we wanted to increase the budget of the entire BATF by 500%. According to my quick calculation, my part of that would be about $15. In actual practice, it would be less than that, because some of the money would come from fees, fines, and service charges. Also, most of the 5,000 new employees would be paying taxes.

            I am all for it. This sounds like a program the NRA could really get behind.

      • The only one of these shootings in which the shooter wore body armor is aurora, the rest were load vests. Element of surprise could be argued by both sides. Yes the gun man would have the initial element of surprise but they are picking these places because they know nobody will shoot back- there is the element of surprise. Aurora shooter went outside after a gun jam. He was surprised by this and it stopped him. Are you saying a broken rib from an incoming round may not catch him off guard when he knows nobody else should have a gun. I am not saying that it will 100 percent stop it but I would rather have a fighting chance. I would rather this gunman having to worry about taking cover then executing children. More banks are robbed without gun on premise than with. Gun show vs. gun free zone which have been shot up more this decade?

      • China, man with KNIFE, killed 22, NO BODY ARMOR or ANYTHING else at all, just a friggin KNIFE! And still 22 dead!

      • Where does this news of a ammoured vest come from???
        I heard he had on a black vest!
        I also heard that the Aurora shooter had a black ammoured vest!
        I know the military doesn’t use black vests. Theirs are the same color of there uniforms. (some spec troops might)

        Are black vests the new black is bad stuuf??? You can buy a black vest at Amizon for less than $40.00.

        The Aurora shooter had on a cheap nylon vest, and I bet this guy did also.
        A real bullet resistence vest costs more than the guns they say he used.
        A nylon vest is used to carry stuff, and look cool.
        Guy22

      • “Do you really think someone armed would have prevented this?”

        The shooter might have still injured or killed a few people but he would not have murdered 26+ people with impunity. If guns are so worthless, why did the shooter have guns? Why do all the police have guns?

        Now this is more subtle. Law enforcement and security experts have studied mass shooters. Most mass shooters have no intention of fighting their way out. At the first sign of armed resistance, almost all of them immediately kill themselves and most of the rest immediately surrender. That alone is an extremely compelling reason for armed citizens on site.

      • Mike, I doubt he had body armor, probably just a very cheap “tactical” vest mistaken for body armor. As to would an armed person have prevented this? The best medicine for a crazy person with a gun is to have a good guy with a gun on scene as well. But thanks to the gubermint the law assured this wackjob that he would have no resistance when he walked into that school today.

      • its a possibility, yes.

        most active shooters “give up” (as in they kill themselves) when ANY kind of force is pressed on them.

        also, body armor doesnt make one invincible. with more than three shots to a given area, kevlar bunches up and becomes ineffective. its doesnt matter the caliber whether it is a 9mm or any other common concealed carry piece.

  19. Why? We should be looking at the why? Why Sandy? Why now 2 shootings? The answer is so simple that no one will accept it. TAKE NOTE: Amerika has been kicking God out , our schools, our media, our homes: so with God ALSO goes his GRACE(protection) Here is the order that the CURSE follows = DEATH,=disease=drought=dearth=danger=destruction=defeat=deportation=destitution=DISGRACE:that is how it works: JESUS CHRIST loves us so much that he died for you… TURN to JESUS and be blessed; All else is a act of pride >( PRIDE GOES BEFORE THE FALL) two roads BLESSING or CURSE!

    • As a non-Christian, I can’t go along with you on this. America’s primary value is freedom. That includes freedom of religion and freedom from religion, if the person so chooses.

      • America’s primary value USED TO be freedom. Just look at what voters value these days and you’ll see entitlements and sex are much higher than freedom.

        • Meh. That is your interpretation of how I voted. It is about as accurate as if I told you why you voted a certain way. I value freedoms, such as private property rights, and still believe that certain gun rights should be regulated. In my view, these two opinions are both constitutional. For now (at least) the Supreme Court agrees with me.

    • RF — how about some editorial discretion here? This is not the place to be standing on soapboxes discussing religion.

      • We have one rule: no flaming the website, its authors and fellow commentators. OK and something about racist remarks. In any case, I’ve had to let the mdoeration slide slightly over the last day or so. Dan, Nick and I have been swamped. If there’s an offensive comment please send the link to [email protected]. Thanks for your patience and understanding.

        • Robert is right on this. I don’t like to see religion pumped on TTAG but I hate rules even more. The fewer rules the better. If you don’t respond to religious comments the one is all that goes up. The original writer got it off his chest and he is happy. And we all move on. If someone tries to turn TTAG into a pulpit Robert will trip over a cord and someone will get unplugged. “Opps. Oh well.”

  20. I’m with you rabbi. This failed social engineering experiment with “gun free zones” has been proven to be dangerously, fatally stupid.

    Wouldn’t it be wonderful if we could all live in rainbow-sparkle world, where life is beautiful all of the time? Maybe it would, I’ll never know for the simple reason that our species hasn’t evolved/matured enough for that to happen in the remainder of my lifetime or even in the next couple of centuries. We are a clever, ruthless and bloodthirsty lot. Always have been. As we’ve seen all too many times, evil and madness are never very far away and can spring upon us with lightening speed, when and where we least expect it.

    As the President said, we need to put politics aside, and he’s absolutely right. This isn’t going to be a dialog about rights or politics, we have to make this a conversation about pure, basic survival. We have to speak out, loudly and forcefully, to lead this difficult conversation. We must win and set things right.

    Even if we had all the time and money in the world, and we certainly don’t, we will never be able to remove all of the world’s sharp edges and pointy corners. We can’t Nerf the world, not now, not ever. What we can do is recognize that fact, face it rationally and forthrightly, and get down to the gritty business of dealing with it.

    The other day on this blog we spoke about whether one has a duty to be prepared for self defense. I believe that each and every one of us does indeed have that duty. Many agree with me but not nearly enough. Getting more people to agree with that position will be a large part of the conversation that we’ll soon be facing. It will be our job to see that this job gets done, and done right. It will be a Herculean task, it will get ugly. We must steel ourselves to the work ahead and we must carry the day. We must turn our culture of dependence and acquiescence around 180 degrees because our humanity, our dignity, our very essence depends upon doing just that. The blue social model has failed miserably, we must find a better way.

    • “We must turn our culture of dependence and acquiescence around 180 degrees because our humanity, our dignity, our very essence depends upon doing just that.”
      Was the shooter one of the 47% (and I don`t mean a Romney supporter!)
      I don`t disagree with you but in the same comment you say politics should be put aside you complain about “blue” social policy. That is political and a gross generalisation.

      • The blue social model is indeed at issue here. The blue model absolves the individual of moral reponsibility and invests it in the group. This frees the individual from moral constraints. It’s how socialists of all types get normal people to do inhuman things. The blue social model creates a form of collective sociopatholgy. That is why sociopaths are attracted to socialist mass movements.

      • The “put politics aside” comment was a somewhat sarcastic riff on what the President said this afternoon, as if he and his minions aren’t going to politicize this to the hilt. That doesn’t change the fact that the blue model is a failure. It’s not a gross generalization, it’s absolutely crystal clear. We see it in Detroit, Newark, Oakland, San Bernadino, D.C., Philadelphia, East St. Louis, Chicago and a hundred other places across the country. Just sit back and enjoy the ride, Uncle Sugar will take care of everything. Vote for me and I’ll set you free!! Yippee!! And don’t forget the free stuff. Remember all of the buses that got flooded out before being deployed to evacuate people out of New Orleans when Katrina hit? All those poor, deluded souls waiting for the cavalry that never came. Nagin fiddled while N.O. got creamed. We saw much the same thing with Sandy. Pipe dreamers with power and prestige but without a single clue. People that believe in magic and horoscopes. People with a severely limited acquaintance with history or math, let alone physics. That’s the blue model, pipe dreams and fairy tales, hope and change. Rubbish and rot.

        Until more people realize that more often than not they are well and truly on their own, and start taking the responsibility for their own safety and well being into their own hands, this kind of stuff will continue to happen. And the way things are going in the world today, the heinous acts that we saw unfold today will take place more frequently, and on more stages, across the globe. Does any right thinking individual believe that we are not at a major, historical inflection point?

        People need to realize that they have one of two choices that they can make. They can either be soft targets or hard targets. It’s not a stretch of the imagination that the day may well come when they will be marked as one kind of target or the other. Wishful thinking and a chipper attitude will be no match for madness and blind, unadulterated evil.

        • Since you are an atheist you are a relativist by definition. You are also a bigot. All Bedouins are Muzzies and all Muzzies want to kill the Jews.

          Once again your historical knowledge is deficient. Over half the Jews in Israel have their origin in the Middle East and North Africa.

  21. I have been in a pensive mood since I heard about the shooting. I have been thinking how would the antis react if HAMAS had sent a terrorist to kill 20 Israeli children. Would their hearts bleed for the Israeli families or would they hem and haw about morale equivalency. For those are wondering what this has to do with today’s events let me explain it to you. When you throw away concepts of right and wrong, good and evil mass death is reduced to useful or meaninglessness. To the Micheal Bloombergs of the world these deaths have no moral content. They are only useful for pushing an agenda.

    • Perhaps it would be best to leave Hamas and Fatah out of this.

      They are the exact ME equivalent of Native Americans who are pissed off that my GB relatives showed up on their property and then stole it from them using genocide and terrorist tactics.

      In the US that conflict is rather settled because we killed most of the inhabitants, but in the ME it’s rather fresh and the victims of land theft aren’t all dead yet. Not to mention the Israelis steal more land every day.

      Apples and oranges.

      • You obviously missed point. Well no, in a way you made my point. Your answer is relativistic. Murdering children is murdering children. You also display historical ignorance. The conflict has been going on for about 5000 years and the people you call Palestinians are relative newcomers to the scene. They date from the time of the crusades. The Bedouins are the only surviving tribe from the original population. Moses’father-in-law, Jethro, was a Bedouin. Here is a word of advice. If you ever find yourself in the region and encounter a Bedouin don’t call him a Palestinian you might get your throat cut.

        • Relativistic?

          The people who currently claim to be “Israelis” were Eastern Europeans who said an ancient sand-cult interpretation of Mazdaism-Jainism is a real estate document. What is currently called ‘Israel’ was founded by folks who had no compunction about car bombing the indigenous civilians in a public market. As to Bedouins, who are you getting this fantasy tripe from, Jack Van Impe?

          Any Bedouin right now is a Muzzie , and would be as happy to exterminate the Jews as any Tuareg. BTW, Ever met them? I have. Regardless of their amazing hospitality, they’d leave you to die.

          Moses didn’t exist any more than any of that other nonsense you’re proffering.

          Thanks, I’ve been there and it is nothing like that propaganda.

  22. In our “modern and civilized” society it is morally accepted (!) and politically supported (!) to render people defenseless and to frequently SACRIFICE (!!!) innocent people – instead of FACING the reality and allowing the people to DEFEND themselves.

  23. The answer is simple, the military do it all the time. You stop these people AT THE GATE. And have a backup if that doesn’t work.

  24. I think the thing that upsets me is that every time there is a shooting like this, gun nuts everywhere unite to blame the school, the state, liberals, and Obama. They blame everything except the gun culture in America.

    Any time someone tries to introduce rational gun legislation, the gun nuts scream that “liberals are trying to politicize a tragedy.” Meanwhile, gun nut websites immediately started pushing for armed teachers, armed principals, and I guess, armed preschoolers.

    These websites are full of excuses. “Well, the guns were obtained legally”, or “No amount of legislation would have stopped that.” Whatever. Imagine that you had to go down to a school lunch-room, and stand in line to be told whether your six-year-old had lived through the day or not.

    But by all means, this isn’t the time to talk about gun control.

    • And your solution would be … another law? As if one more law would have stopped this evil person from obtaining a deadly weapon even though he broke a book full of laws anyway.

    • You are a poster child for what I have been pointing out all day. To you this is a culture problem. The individual is absolved from blame because the gun culture made him do it. When you deny moral agency you promote evil. Evil people do evil things.

        • Yawn, anyone quoting a biased, predetermined agenda piece bankrolled by the Joyce Foundation has already lost the arguement. A reverse Goodwins law!

          So when you going to hold the media accountable for providing and educating the psychos on getting their 15 minutes of fame?

          So when you going to hold gun free victim disarmament zones for disarming the law abiding and failing to protect those they disarm?

          So you going to hold the mother, Ms Lanza accountable for her apparent failure to secure her firearms, oh wait, she is dead.

          If he didnt get them from his mother, he then must have bought them somehow.

          So you going to hold the BATF accountable for their failure to enforce the existing gun control laws on a 20 year old buying handguns, especially in gun control freakland New Jersey?

          Oh wait, 20 year olds arent legally able to buy a handgun from a licensed source.

          Did he steal them, get them from a private individual who by law is not allowed by the BATF to access the NICS background check for private sales?

          Heaven forbid your local politcian actually did something on a mental health system in the US, much less mental health reporting function to the NICS. But we know, progressives wouldnt like the mentally ill to be catalogued, as most of them would be bat schiite crazy progressives anyway.

          So what LBG is saying is guns are sentient beings, which have supernatural powers to load, aim and firearm themself. A fetishism, which mental health experts agree is a severe form of mental perversion/mental defensive systems at worst.

          However, this can gravitate into real mental illness, where one believes said inanimate object can use its voice and esp to force anyone near it to commit a violent act. Luckily for the public safety, most of those loveable, violent, schizophrenics are locked away!

          Unlike good little socialists like LBD, lets actually address those who contributed to the enablement of such a slaughter.

          • That is what people always do on these boards. They ask for facts, and then when the facts turn out to be different than what they thought, they ignore the statistics.

            In the real world, you can’t just ignore statistics because they were compiled at Harvard. Particularly when you are quoting statistics that were compiled based on “user-reported” self-defense.

        • Man, them there honor killings are so evolved and civilized.

          In India, for example, more than 5,000 brides die annually because their dowries are considered insufficient, according to the United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF). Crimes of passion, which are treated extremely leniently in Latin America, are the same thing with a different name, some rights advocates say.

          “In countries where Islam is practiced, they’re called honor killings, but dowry deaths and so-called crimes of passion have a similar dynamic in that the women are killed by male family members and the crimes are perceived as excusable or understandable,” said Widney Brown, advocacy director for Human Rights Watch.

          The practice, she said, “goes across cultures and across religions.”

          http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/02/0212_020212_honorkilling.html

          But hey, since we have 312 mil people in the US an something like 14,748 murders of which the US govt. acknowledges that over 92% of those killings by illegal use of a firearm were committed by career criminals, gang members, and suiciders, exactly how are we more violent than so call civilized countries eh?

          But hey, its better to blame the innocents rather than address those most responsible eh Dave?

          Oh thats right, England which has a violent crime rate of 1,977 per 100k people which is almost 5 times the current violent crime rate in the US of 403.6 per 100k people is much safer using Kenyesian eubonics math.

          Same thing with South Africa 1,554 vcr per 100k people.

          Same thing with Canada 1,282 vcr per 100k people.

          Same thin with Australia 1,024 vcr per 100k people.

          Man all them gun ban paradises being more violent, well, only if you are sane do you recognize such a GOVERNMENT ADMITTED FACT!

          • There is a difference between violent crime and violent crime that results in murder. If you are comparing our murder rate to Central America, we seem pretty low. If you compare our murder rate to Europe, we seem pretty high.

            I suppose we are not necessarily any more violent than Europe, just a lot more deadly.

      • Most of America’s violence is concentrated in a subset of 10% of the population. The rate of violence for remaining 90% is like Canada. All the studies proclaiming the US as violent assume the rate of violence to be uniformly spread across the population.

        Guilt does not equal reponsibility. You claim that the responsibility lies with the “gun culture.” Absent the gun culture the shooter would have turned out fine

    • Far more people have died in aviation accidents since 1991 than these horrible and unfortunate infinitesimal blips on the radar that are called “mass killings”.

      Almost 33,000 people died in car accidents last year, yet no one is suggesting that we ban cars – because we all know that far more would die if we do.

      The fact is our Great Nation was founded on the principle (Number 2 if you’re counting) that the average guy must be able to defend himself against any person or government that may threaten his natural human rights. There are always costs to be paid as has well been noted “you don’t get freedom for free”.

      The cost may be painful, but it is necessary.

      • No one is suggesting that we ban cars, yet we go to great lengths to regulate them, and we spend billions each year training people to use them safely.

        If a couple of people were killed each week by foreign terrorists, we would be making our immigrant-registration laws tougher.

        • Perhaps you are not familiar with US car ownership and driving rules…

          Anyone can own a car, provided that they are 18. Most folks can legally drive at 16. Our testing regimes are a complete joke – if you can fog the mirror, you’ll pass. Training? There is none required. The only thing our government spends billions on is enforcement agents, that is, raking in more billions through fees and fines. It’s merely an alternative revenue stream.

          Honestly, we regulate gun ownership to a far tighter standard than cars or driving.

          • We regulate gun ownership more tightly than cars?

            So you are saying I need to have insurance to buy a gun? I need to pass an owner’s test to drive a gun? I lose my license if I get caught carrying a gun while drunk?

            Let’s face it, even though the driver’s test is a joke, it is still harder than the concealed carry test in Florida. The only thing that can stop you from getting a CCP in Florida is a conviction for domestic violence. The driver’s license, by comparison, can be denied for something as simple as epilepsy.

        • Passing the driver’s test is about as complicated as filling out a yellow sheet.

          If you do something bad with your gun while drunk, you will likely lose it, just like your car. Unlike your car, you are very likely to do jail time.

          As to FL, you also can’t get CC if you have had chemical issues, convicted of a felony, and a few more.

          • Passing the driver’s test was relatively easy, but it was about 100% harder than the concealed carry test, which does not exist.

            As far as using controlled substances, that is a joke. In Florida, at least, you can get a concealed carry permit three years after you get released from jail. If you get the record sealed, then the waiting period is only one year.

            As far as losing your gun for using it drunk, that is simply not true. If you get drunk and walk around with a gun, the punishment is based on what you end up doing, not based on your blood alcohol level. If you are driving while impaired, it does not matter whether you “do something bad”, you get arrested and lose your license.

            They don’t wait to see whether you kill someone.

    • “Meanwhile, gun nut websites immediately started pushing for armed teachers, armed principals, and I guess, armed preschoolers. ”

      Armed teachers, principals, and parent volunteers would be the stopgap measure when our (at present non-existent) mental health system or criminal justice system fails.

      Look, a person determined to do harm will do it. If guns were not available, several alternatives which are even more effective than firearms are available that will never, ever be removed from the world. We need a stopgap measure. Armed people are that measure. Why constrain ourselves to the several minutes of response time for police? I would much rather have armed people already on site. And no we don’t need to pay for police officers at every school. A lunatic would simply shoot the policeman first. Concealed carry is the answer … it keeps the criminals guessing.

    • The law failed all the innocents that died today. The laws failed several times. Your solution to prevent further events like this is another law? Makes sense right?

      • 1. Background checks for every gun purchase. “Parking lot” sales should be illegal.
        2. Any magazines larger than 6 should require a license similar to a concealed carry permit.
        3. Gun purchases limited to one per month.
        4. Anyone caught breaking one of the rules loses their right to buy, own, or carry. This includes drinking while carrying.

        • Low Budget Dave: I’m amazed; I don’t think I’ve ever met a dealer in something who seems to have so much distaste for his own product.

          Background checks for every gun purchase means that every single gun in the country has to be registered. How long do you think that will take? How do you propose administering it? Do we all have to bring our guns into the local BATFE office once a year to prove we still have them all in our possession? Random on-site checks?

          It’s interesting to me that you are willing to permanently deprive someone of a Constitutional guaranteed right due to an arbitrary malum prohibitum law like the number of rounds in the magazine or the frequency of purchase. I recently purchased four stripped lowers at the same time, and had to have a background check done to take them home. Would the rule also apply to instances like that?

          While I’m on the subject, what possible purpose does a “one gun a month” law serve? Virginia had one for a while, because they were supposedly identified as the #1 source for crime guns in NYC, but they recently overturned it (or let it lapse, I’m not sure). You see, it was doing absolutely nothing, as the FBI’s average time to crime for firearms found in NYC was measured in multiple years.

          There’s a bunch of states (including my own) that allow drinking while carrying, as long as you don’t drink to the level of impairment. Clearly this hasn’t resulted in blood in the streets, or they’d have rolled those laws back. If I’m carrying concealed, how do you propose enforcing that?

        • Lets continue this review by acknowledging how many of the existing gun control laws actually apply to the bad guys.

          http://supreme.justia.com/us/390/85/

          Haynes vs. U.S. 390 U.S. 85 1968 where the US Supreme Court ruled 8-1 in favor of Haynes that any law requiring a felon to self incriminate themselves and violate their 5th amendment rights was not enforceable as a charge for prosecution.

          Hence criminals don’t have to follow 85% of the existing 22,417 gun control laws that do so, e.g. your stolen weapons, registrations, etc….

          Would you care to suggest that the 5th amendment be repealed, no, don’t think you would!

          Then we should review how well those laws are enforced anyway.

          Like the BATF for refusing to prosecute more than 1% of the 1.83 mil felons, others, and crazies rejected by the background check since 1994.

          http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/html/bcft/2008/bcft08st.pdf
          USDOJ Background Check & Firearm Transfer report 2008

          Like the BATF for refusing to catch ANY of those lying on their 4473 forms (Cho, Loughner & Holmes were crazy, they lied) or using fake identifications.

          http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/03/21/national/main280557.shtml General Accounting Office study

          Like the BATF for refusing to do anything about the 95% of felons who don’t even attempt to buy from a licensed source to begin with.

          http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=940
          DOJ Firearms use by Offenders Nov 2001

          Like the BATF for refusing to allow civilians access to use the NICS background check for private sales as only licensed dealers are allowed.

          Lets not forget that our politicians play a significant role in enabling the crazies to go free. As a result of VA Tech, Pub. L. 110-180 NICS Improvement Amendments Act of 2007 was enacted.

          http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/PUBLAW/HTML/PUBLAW/0-0-0-38245.html

          The real question and failure, is what have the states actually funded or resourced to do so?

          http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/nics

          Going to the actual website, we see as of July 2012, there are only 1.7 mil records of people who by due process have lost their 2A rights for being severely mentally ill. Yet mental health experts agree that on avg. over 23.15 mil US adults (50% of current 2.7 mil prisoners) are severely mentally ill.

          So is that the 80 mil law abiding gun owners fault, or the politicians, sucker question I know!

          Then all those failures of people in position of authority, who repeatedly fail to do something about it.

          Like the psychiatrist for Cho (VA Tech killer) who failed to notify authorities about Cho before his shooting rampage. You should hold VA Tech responsible for failing to implement appropriate safety measures after they disarmed their students. Review the timeline of the VA Tech shooting and explain again why more laws should be implemented when so many failures occurred that were NOT the law abiding gun owners responsibility!

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_massacre_timeline

          You should hold the sheriff in AZ responsible for failing to press charges against Loughner 4 to 5 times prior to the Gifford’s shooting as we see death threats are not a felony in AZ when your parents are politically connected like Loughners. Gifford’s actually ignored death threats and had no security, how foolish.

          The military at least did a little of what antis refuse to do, hold those responsible for failure accountable. They convened a military tribunal and found those 9 Army officers guilty of dereliction of duty for failing to follow military procedures and protocols in handling and processing obvious mentally ill people in their ranks. The guilty finding has ended any hope of advancement essentially ending those 9 Officers careers.

          http://www.wane.com/dpps/military/Army-reprimands-9-officers-in-Fort-Hood-shooting_3745084

          Lets not forget the heroes in Aurora CO. You know, the psychiatrist and the Risk Review Board at Colorado University. They had Holmes under review and when he dropped out of school, they just like irresponsible children, dropped the issue and notified no one, even when they had acknowledged that he was a risk.

          Thereby enabling Holmes to continue and engage in his killing spree. Lest we not acknowledge the Cinemark theatres who disarm their patrons and do nothing to protect those they disarm should be held accountable as well.

          • I think this proves my point more effectively than I did. There are simple laws that could prevent a great deal of gun violence. Many of these laws are already on the books, and just need enforcement.

            I think we are in agreement here that the BATF should enforce all existing gun laws against corrupt gun dealers. Obviously, you can’t prosecute them for murder, but why haven’t we at least revoked their license?

    • What exactly does America’s Gun Culture have to do with a random demented 20-year old?

      Demented being the key word here. Unless you’re insinuating that America’s Gun Culture actually can make people crazy somehow… which I think you’ll need to explain.

      I think the problem was… he had a mental break (and a history of mental and attitude problems) and wasn’t institutionalized or treated appropriately for his social or psychological issues.

      There’s your problem.

        • Go ask the one responsible, oh wait, he killed the one responsible, his mother.

          So explain again why we should be punished for his mothers error?

          Isnt getting killed for her mistake enough?

          Oh thats right, you just want to emulate your heroes, and splash blood on your brown shirt, pants and hobnail boots like your heroes as you dance in innocent victims blood enabled by idiotic laws created and implemented by people like you.

          You want your pound of flesh, when you going to understand how insane it is trying to get that pound of flesh from those who are not responsible for the actions of the few insane ones?

          What is it going to take to get that through your thick skull?

          You being victimized?

          Do let us know what it will take so that if it is within our legal powers we can do so and make it happen so we no longer have to listen to your insane socialistic crap blaming innocent people!

          • So in your mind, having to keep your gun locked is “being punished”?

            And also, spare me your personal insults. You don’t know me, and you don’t know my motives. You wouldn’t know me if you met me on the street. You don’t know what I hold dear, nor which loved ones I may have lost.

            You may disagree with what I say, but you do not get to judge why I say it.

        • Do you blame women that were raped for being “attractive” or “desirable” to sick sex-offenders?

          Do you blame the child for being molested by the priest?

          Do you blame anyone and everyone that’s ever been mugged for carrying money in their wallet? Wearing jewelry? Having a nice watch?

          Do you blame the person crossing the street on a crosswalk for being struck by an impatient or inattentive driver?

          Here’s a novel idea:
          Why not blame the criminal, crazy person, a-hole for being an evil criminal, crazy person, or a-hole.

          Stop blaming the victims for the crimes and attrocities that were committed upon them. Yes, this includes the dead mother of the murderous kid in this scenario. She didn’t give her guns to her kid, you know. She was murdered. Just like those elementary school kids.

          That demented crazy 20-year-old mass murderer could’ve just as easily murdered a cop and obtained their guns to do his misdeeds. Would that have stopped you from blaming the victim if that were the case?

          Newsflash: legally owned weapons aren’t at fault here.

          Makes a whole lot more sense to me.

          • I don’t know the facts of this particular case, I was just proposing legislation that would make guns safer, in general, without infringing on people’s second amendment rights. Gun locks might not have helped in this case, or maybe they would have. The point is that there are certainly some households where gun locks should be legally required.

            As far as your silly example: You are saying that keeping an unlocked gun around the house is absolutely fine, even if you have a son that you suspect has a mental illness? Really?

        • Because LB Dave is a proponent of the culture that says nobody is guilty. It’s all societies fault when they do wrong. If we engineer society in the right way we will all live in paradise but until we get to nirvana then people like him and Mr. Bonomo will have to be put in charge.

          • I don’t believe that no one is guilty, nor do I think that we can ever prevent all crime. I just think that certain criminal activity can be reduced by application of common sense laws.

        • Where did you gain the information that was the case?
          He MURDERED HIS MOTHER if you haven’t heard & they were her firearms.
          It is far more likely he killed her so that he could take the guns from wherever they were secured.

    • the thing that upsets me is when people dont hold the perpetrator accountable. they decide to highlight a scapegoat, whether it is guns, video games, marilyn manson, americas culture, etc, etc.

      “These websites are full of excuses. “Well, the guns were obtained legally”, or “No amount of legislation would have stopped that.” Whatever. ”

      the guns were stolen. theres a major law that has been broken. yet, unsurprisingly, those magical laws dont appear like large hands to stop the perpetrator from committing violence. shocking. yet this golden rule seems to elude many that take the route of choosing scapegoats.

      fyi, im sure you call americans “free speech nuts”, and “freedom from unreasonable search and seizure nuts” too.

  26. “Having armed teachers will act as a deterrent and take the advantage away from an assailant”

    Simple wisdom. It works.

      • Lets use government data and compare someone supposedly safe, a doctor, to the chance of being killed by an accidental firearm discharge and we won’t use one single NRA generated data source.

        CDC Death Data 1930’s, over 2,500 accidental deaths by firearm discharge
        CDC Death & Data 2009 554 deaths by accidental firearm discharge, right at 100 age 0-18 yrs old.

        http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/deaths_2009_release.pdf
        US Census 1930’s 112.8 mil
        US Census 2009 304 mil

        BATF 1930 TO 2009 100 Million more firearms in civilian hands

        JAMA http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/286/4/415 700,000 doctors in US kill 44,000 to 98,000 by medical malpractice every year or .065 to .14 per physician.

        Since kids = 1/3 of population, will adjust deaths to reflect = 13,200 to 29,400 deaths.

        100 / 80,000,000 = .000000125

        Physician is .0188 or .042 /.000000125 = 150,400 to 336,000 times more likely to harm your child than they being accidently harmed by a lawfully owned firearm.

        Explain to everyone again what the oh so scarey risk is of an accidental death by firearm discharge that has dropped 75% since the 1930’s and has not increased in parallel with the population increase of 167% and your fear mongering inferred

        So where is the risk from concealed carry holders and why aren’t you antis crying to ban doctors?

        Actually anyone taking their child to a doctor should have Child Protective Services called on them for risking their child’s lives so frivolously.

        Where are your govt. data cites and studies Dave?

        • Statistics are great. Those low statistics cover up the fact that 174 children died from accidental gun discharge in calendar year 2000.

          But at least the numbers have decreased since Congress banned full automatics in 1930, and of course, the gun control act of 1968.

          So the number you are willing to accept is 174?

          Meh. I’ll take it under consideration. It doesn’t seem like much of an improvement.

  27. I touched upon this in another post. It is time to elaborate. We need community volunteers with concealed handgun carry licenses to volunteer at schools. If we had at least one armed volunteer and even better two armed volunteers at every school, every day, that would greatly reduce a lunatic’s ability to walk in and just execute dozens of people.

    I would be first in line to volunteer an entire day once every two months — maybe even once every month. It would be a civic duty like jury duty. And for all the people worried about safety, the simple solution is that the volunteers carry their handguns in properly fitting holsters that cover the triggers. A handgun in a properly fitting holster that covers the trigger will never discharge itself. Of course all the volunteers would have to carry concealed. That preserves the element of surprise for them if God forbid they ever needed to respond to an attack.

    Now imagine if a couple teachers were carrying in addition to the two community volunteers?

  29. While I’m sure there are a handful of teachers who would carry in the classroom if allowed, the vast majority of them would never even touch a gun much less carry one. So I’m not sure how effective this would be in curtailing school shootings.

    • That’s a mindset that really should change, though I know it unfortunately will be extremely unlikely to. How does the current “lay down and die” attitude serve students?

      • How does the current “lay down and die” attitude serve students?

        It doesn’t. It trains them to be subservient. Today, it’s the bad man with the gun. Tomorrow, it will be the government and a “good” man with the gun.

  30. We already put our trust in teachers for our kids’ safety, don’t we? We leave them there for 8 hours a day with these people, for not a whole hell of a lot of money or gratitude, and hope for the best.
    Say what you want about the state of education in this country, but as far as keeping kids safe, the teachers have a pretty damn honorable track record. How many times now have we heard stories of these people putting themselves in harms way, shielding their students, barring doors with their bodies, ANYthing they can think of to buy them just a little more time and safety.
    What the hell is wrong with us? These people have already demonstrated their resolve. For God’ sake, let them use the tools they need to protect themselves, and the kids we leave in their care!

    • In reality, how many would take the time to be proficient? Could you trust them to not ND their weapons, to be aware of their background?

  31. Wow, this is by far the most sensible, objective, respectful, and intellectual discussion that I have seen on a comment board.

  32. A little add on there are strong reports the mother of shooter was CIA and the arms used were also CIA weapons, and very many reports of a second shooter, such as the little boy who saw the police had a man they had on the ground. As always the fix is in the facts are now way out ! ARE we taking mind control also???? Money seems again no problems for any in all these shooting if you will also take note… and the mother was never a teacher or ever worked at that school ever ???? also was talk on 911 tape about 2 shotguns and a rifle and tape was cut off at that point???????

  33. Food for thought- the NE corridor has banned, restricted and limited FA ownership to the point where something like this occuring in that region is bound to be far worse than in, lets say, Arizona. With the exception of Vermont, the rest of the NE is one big anti-gun zone, ripe for future tragedies like this.

    • In Arizona, when Gabby Giffords was shot, at least three people in the crowd were armed. All of them watched while a couple of unarmed people in the crowd did the hard work.

      • Exactly as they were trained to do since they did not have a clear field of fire and did not want to shoot innocent people.

  34. One of those who took him down WAS armed but didn’t draw his firearm due to the possibility of hitting bystanders.
    Being a “gun nut” meant he had the knowledge needed to exploit the killer’s magazine change & take him down.

  35. Less than 5 percent of Israeli teachers are armed. Most of those are on the west banks. Obtaining a gun is more difficult , much more difficult in the US. Why aren’t guns registered the same way cars are. Why aren’t licenses , and insurance required on guns ?

    Of the 61 one mass murders only a handful were stopped by people with guns. Of those people two were off duty cops, a couple were former marines. To react appropriate in this kind of situation requires intensive training. Arm teachers and you’ll see students dying in the cross fire. You’ll see the stress level of the students go up.

  37. The NRA are nothing more than lobbyists for the Gun Manufactor’s. Do you really think they care about anything other than selling more guns. Millions of dollars have been spent on convincing people guns make you safer. They don’t in almost every case. If you’re going to carry a gun in my neighborhood I want you trained, I want you to have insurance. Because if you do shoot my kid I will sue you, hire the best lawyers, and see you locked up, all your weapons confiscated. Putting guns in the hands of untrained paranoid people who expect the country to fall apart is a disaster waiting to happen. Thousands of studies across the world show the US has the highest rate of gun related crimes in the developed world. And its by a factor of at least 10 to 30 times higher.

    • We’ve all read those propaganda sheets you quote & found them lacking in facts but full of fear & loathing.
      What IS it about those of us who choose NOT to rely on the government for their safety that gets to you people?

      Are you jealous of our independence & self assurance?

      • No you haven’t, you’ve just accepted the propaganca the NRA is selling , which is more guns. What you don’t get, is that its my country and I don’t want idiots running around with guns killing people. You can’t violate my rights, put put my people at risk. You can’t do whatever you want. The 2nd ammendenment was designed to prevent revolution, not to prevent the goverment from taking over. Gun rights only became an issue in the 60’s. If you don’t have the proper training with gun, if you haven’t demonstrated a need for a gun not designed for hunting then you don’t need one.. If someone steals your gun, and a crime is commited with it I want you held personally responsible if it wasn’t properly secured. I want you to have insurance. there are more gun related shootings in the US then any other developed country. That can’t be argued.

  38. What I care about is all of the lunatics running around with guns. Forty nine percent of the guns in this country are sold without background checks. Thats insane

    • Another number without any link to where it came from.

      Come on: Where did you get the 49% figure from, seeing as none of those sales are recorded?

      That’s always been a problem for gun banners; you don’t have much in the way of hard facts, so you make stuff up.

  39. The numbers are easy to obtain. But any numbers I’d present you with wouldn’t be believed. Go ahead and google.

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