Everyone knows that many of Kel-Tec’s firearms are difficult to find. At normal dealer price, as opposed to paying way over MSRP, they can be nearly impossible to get. Due to how clearly supply lags behind demand in many cases, there’s a lot of finger-pointing and blame, a lot of well-intentioned ‘suggestions,’ and plenty of rumors. All of which were in evidence in the comments to my PMR-30 review from six months ago and in basically every Kel-Tec-related post before and since. Recently I had the chance to talk to Kel-Tec and get a high level overview of why this problem actually exists and what the company is doing about it. Unless it’s specifically quoted below, the following is mostly my paraphrasing rather than direct quotes from Kel-Tec . . .
First and foremost, I think many people are surprised to learn just how big Kel-Tec CNC Industries, Inc. actually is. This ~20-year-old American firearms manufacturer which turns out 100% made-in-the-USA guns, employs just over 200 people and shipped about 117,000 firearms last year. That production level makes it approximately the sixth largest handgun manufacturer in the U.S.
Certainly, a comparison in production capabilities to firearms manufacturers that are decades or as much as a century older can leave Kel-Tec playing catch up in some respects. A product line of 10+ firearms, many of which are highly sought-after, has created a lot of demand and an impressively long backorder list. As you may have noticed.
“Build more buildings, buy more machines, hire more people!”
Hey it makes sense. The demand is there so the business case to expand to meet it is almost certainly there as well. Kel-Tec is responding and growing rapidly, but chooses to move in a more conservative manner to minimize gambles and risk and ensure its long-term stability. There are really two reasons demand isn’t fully met yet.
One is the obvious fact that scaling up manufacturing capabilities is easier said than done. Kel-Tec has always been popular, but some of the models for which demand wildly outstrips supply are relatively recent releases. It’s pretty clear that this demand isn’t going to fade any time soon, though, so Kel-Tec has scaled up and will continue to do so at an increasing rate.
However, “Kel-Tec does not, and will not borrow money to expand the factory. In other words, we only pay cash. If interest in our firearms suddenly dropped, or a law was passed and our firearms are now illegal, what then?” The company doesn’t want to be on the wrong side of a bank loan, whether that means financial problems or actually losing operational control. I’m sure all of us have feelings on both sides of this decision, with one hand saying “just do it, the market wants your products!” and the other saying, “fiscally conservative, thinking long-term, hedging your risks…okay, I get that and respect it.” Or maybe that’s just me feeling that either choice is understandable, or a little of both. Maybe even a minority equity investment would be a viable third option.
Regardless, their choice will slow expansion to some degree. But Kel-Tec is expanding as rapidly as possible within that constraint.
In 2011, Kel-Tec bought the metal shop next door to its facility. Then it became ISO 9001:2008 certified, which itself required an overhaul of internal processes. This certification cost time and money, while paying off primarily in improved quality control. Recently, renovation in the machine shop was done to make more space for additional machinery (“those new machines are being programmed for the RMR-30”) and offices. Around the same time, Kel-Tec began purchasing land north of its property for larger scale future expansion.
Production is currently at maximum capacity, with the machine shop running three shifts, five days a week. Kel-Tec outsources certain processes and parts now more than before, which opens up its machines for more critical functions that it has to control in-house. It carefully selects these partners to ensure quality levels are at least ISO 9001 compliant. One of Kel-Tec’s goals for 2014 is to double KSG production, and some of this will be achieved via outsourcing of certain parts of the gun.
Another method to increase availability of the company’s most popular and in-demand products is to optimize machine time when capabilities aren’t such that each product can have its own dedicated machines. Basically, focus production on more popular models and limiting production on less popular items to specific runs each year. That may mean slightly less availability of products like the P-32 (with maybe one or two production runs each year), but it will mean better availability of items like the KSG or PMR-30.
Now that we know some of Kel-Tec’s plans, intentions and strategies for growth and keeping up with demand, one question that remains is what we can actually expect to see in the not-too-distant future. So I asked what Kel-Tec’s forecasted production volume will be in 2016 so we can compare against the previously-mentioned 2013 figure of 117,000 firearms. Drumroll…“Our forecast unit production for 2016 is around 200,000 firearms.”
Lies, damned lies and rumors
With that out of the way, let’s get to the fun stuff – the rumors! I’m fairly certain that some folks will choose to believe internet scuttlebutt no matter what’s stated in here. Whatever you decide, here’s what Kel-Tec has to say about some of the more popular ones.
I have personally seen and heard – or overheard in my LGS – that some of the market’s frustration with Kel-Tec’s inability to meet demand comes specifically from a belief that Kel-Tec is spending some or much of its time and resources elsewhere. It’s one thing if a small company is trying its hardest and just can’t turn out enough product. That can be frustrating, but it’s understandable. It’s another thing if they’re ignoring their customers and devoting resources and effort in other endeavors. That would actually make people angry at Kel-Tec. There are a couple of rumors along those lines:
Kel-Tec makes aerospace and electronics parts for large government contracts and doesn’t care about the tiny-in-comparison consumer firearms manufacturing business.
The fact is, there’s another company called Keltec. Or there was. Their website, www.keltec.com, now redirects to www.craneae.com, but that’s a relatively recent change. Despite the formerly similar name and the general geographical proximity of one of Crane’s branches to Kel-Tec, these are completely separate entities that have absolutely nothing to do with each. This may be the single most prevalent myth and was understandable enough due to the name confusion. But it is absolutely a myth.
Kel-Tec makes guns as a hobby, and [insert military item here] is its priority.
Another myth. Guns are Kel-Tec’s number one and only priority. The company doesn’t make anything else. No missiles, no grenades, no NASA parts, etc. Well…they make a couple flashlights, but they don’t take much away from firearms production.
Kel-Tec is owned by a woman who got it through a divorce and doesn’t want or care to expand production.
Mr. and Mrs. Kellgren are happily married, and Kel-Tec is expanding production. It’s a mystery as to where this rumor actually came from.
So that’s the long and short of it. Kel-Tec makes some unique and innovative firearms that are in very high demand. It’s not meeting that demand right now. It’s a small company but probably a lot larger than many people think. It absolutely is expanding, both in its plans and in its actions. Kel-Tec does not borrow money to finance its growth. That prevents quickly ramping up capacity but profits are being reinvested into expanding output as quickly as this allows. Rumors of Kel-Tec’s various more important business endeavors or a disinterested ownership are unfounded.
Whether you agree, disagree, or just want to play armchair CEO, that’s the state of the company today.
They need to license out one or two of their designs to a reputable company
I was glad to read that they’re investing in quality control. They needed to.
Maybe even their double stack mag design for rimmed ammunition. I think that a 15-17 round mag for a .357 Desert Eagle would be the bees knees.
SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!
I want something like that so badly
I think 12-14 would be the limited to what would fit. But, as said…”take my money”.
If they can make an M1 Carbine clone chambered in .357 with a mag of the same design (and reliability), I bet that would sell like hotcakes.
A .38/.357 auto-loading carbine?! Shut up and take my money!!!
http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/shut-up-and-take-my-money.jpg
I’d buy one in an absolute heartbeat. Especially if they price them the way they price the PMR and Sub2k
Ruger has made a couple of carbines chambered for .44 mag: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruger_Deerfield_Carbine …my grandfather has a 1960’s M44 that I’ll have to take ownership of one of these days…
They’ve also done a 9mm or .40 S&W carbine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruger_Police_Carbine
We ALL know the real truth behind Keltec’s continued inability to deliver market share of products…
The world-wide shortage of allen bolts.
OH! I went there!
I heard a rumor that they’re ISO 9001:2008 certified and somehow still make guns that jam a lot.
My PF9 was manufactured in 2010, and turned out to be completely unacceptable in terms of quality and reliability. I hope their ISO certification indicates that they’ve made some significant changes in their processes to correct this.
I’ve been waiting for an SU-16A forever. My local gun shop has had one on order for me from 4 different suppliers with no results yet. It’s now been 3 months so far since I ordered it.
I visited the factory in February of 2018 and they are on track
Why license when other mfgs are coopting their ideas (I’m being nice by not saying stealing since the tactics aren’t illegal at this moment)
The explosion of their product line will create buyer frustration, but it Will be worth it.
Meanwhile the reseller market may be awesome
Guess I’d better sell my KSG at some insane markup before they start flooding the stores like 870s.
You’ve already missed the bubble… I’m regularly seeing KSGs at below MSRP now.
Shhhhh….
Ware the hell did you find the KSG I’ve been looking all over for. One I can’t seem to find one for MSRP ho I did find a used one for 1800. So I told him ware to stick it after that the conversation kind of went south. Unless you can help me I guess I will keep looking did not get a lot of help from Kel Tech the normal we are going as fast as we can.
English is fun
I saw a brand new PMR-30 for MSRP in my LGS not two weeks ago. I did a triple-take and if I hadn’t just sold all my 22WMR supply along with my Izhmash Biathlon Basic 7-2 KO, I’d have pulled out my credit card.
I would have jumped on that pmr-30. I’ve been wanting one forever and haven’t laid eyes upon one under $500 to $600. That’s insane pricing.
believe me, I would have had it been two weeks prior and I still had my brick-and-a-half of 22WMR.
Thanks for the update, that was quite interesting to me. It gives me hope that maybe one day I’ll be able to buy a sub2k and a pmr 30 for a reasonable price!
I continue to read mixed reviews about Keltec’s quality control. My son’s experience with one if their handguns has been really negative. Hard for me to shake my low opinion about Kel-Tec
I have a sub2000 in g17 9mm… I had some issues with the bolt carrier getting stuck on the hammer face, they offered to pay for shipping and fix it, I didn’t want to wait 6 weeks so I ended up fixing it myself but I wouldn’t sell that gun for love or money. It is fun, innovative and a true beast. Whatever u say on their quality control, the customer service when I emailed them was top notch…. My recommendation? Own a Dremel 🙂
I couldn’t pass one up in my LGS recently, but haven’t had a chance to get to a range with it yet. After taking it down a few times to familiarize myself with it, I think I may end up having similar problems. Can you fill me in on what you did?
I had same issue on my Sub2k in 9MM and also chose not to send in. Just curious, did you polish the underside of the bolt carrier and also the top of the hammer (and ejector) – like I did?
Gonna write a longer response on the bottom, but in case you tagged this, you should know to look for it 🙂
“Own a Dremel”
While I think customizing your gun is a fine diversion, and fun too, you should have to do NOTHING, repeat, NOTHING but feed your gun decent ammunition in order to use it.
You can live in the world of “should” and be forever disappointed with something or other, or you can learn to accept that imperfections exist and learn how to dance around them. I’m not saying you shouldn’t have high standards and expect things to be done right, but if you refuse to buy a fun gun like a sub2000 because of the “should”s and “shouldn’t”s, then you’re just stifling your own experiences.
Gurge- I agree, and I’ll probably even buy a Sub 2K eventually, their problems notwithstanding. However, given a PCC’s limited usefulness (underpowered ammo, limited range), I would expect them to make up for it with reliability.
The long sight radius and/or use of an optic extends the accurate range quite effectively, and the bump to a 16″ barrel does increase bullet velocity in 9mm by 100 to 300 fps depending on load and length of your pistol barrel comparison (4″ or 5″). This isn’t Sub2000-specific and would apply to really any pistol caliber carbine out there. I did have a Sub2k in 9mm Glock flavor for a while though and could consistently ring steel at much greater distances, with the factory iron sights, than with a pistol. Even my current 9mm carbine with a 3.5″ barrel does better for me at long range because I can brace it against my shoulder to keep it stable and the red dot is easier to sight with. So it isn’t really a long barrel accuracy thing, it’s a brace it against your shoulder and keep it steady thing. Especially rapid fire… no comparison.
Can you post a thread about this in the forums? My G17 S2K likes to stovepipe on an empty follower.
Dang my Beretta version does the same exact thing!
I’ve been meaning to get that resolved but haven’t really between using it because the irons were off and adjusting the front sight is stupid, it’s better to replace it with a proper one than fiddle with it. I just got a red lion fiend instead and put a red dot on it. NOW IT’S AWESOME, except for that stovepipe issue
However if anyone reloads and you always practicing being 100yrds, you gotta get a pistol caliber carbine.. easy and cheap to reload for and minimal noise…
Can you post a thread about this in the forums? My G17 S2K likes to stovepipe on an empty magazine follower.
My pf9 was great as long as you didn’t feed it white box or some reloads. But the grip was just terrible.
Great article. As a design engineer, I salute this disciplined approach to business development. It is frustrating to the consumer, but it is the best decision for the company and their employees. I wish more companies were run this way.
I just finished a book on the history of a Ruger. They grew their business the same way, and it turned out well for them.
And oddly, they are known for poor quality control as well. My wife’s Single Ten had the front sight mounted off center so badly that moving the rear sight all the way to the right still wouldn’t put the POI on paper at 15 Metres.
Mind you, they fixed it free of charge and I had it back in my hands within three weeks, so their warranty work is top notch.
That PMR is a cool gun, but try to find ammo for it right now. I’ve shot one of there .380’s, it was a decent gun, nothing to write home about though.
five hours a day, three shifts, is not full bore production. We worked 84 hours last week in our CNC shop. Take that punks.
Read it again. Five days a week, not five hours a day. One assumes it’s 8-hour shifts, which equates to full production during the work week.
I suppose they could expand the schedule to run on weekends, but that would likely mean overtime pay, which eats into the bottom line pretty fast.
Several manufacturing companies I deal with use weekends for upkeep and preventative maintenance on the machinery to avoid downtime during production runs.
if its FL, there is no OT unless it’s over 40hrs, at least thats what i’ve been payed working almost every weekend i can remember.
Weekend OT or a Weekend 4th shift almost always in counterproductive, Never any adults around on the weekend to make sure anything is happening much less anything productive/quality.
And as stated, Some designated time is needed for maintenance. Weekend can work for such,
Umm.. three shifts five days a week would be theoretically 120 hours per week.
Yes, you could do some overtime on the weekends. But it tends to result in higher production costs and is best used sparingly for seasonal demand or the occasional big order. Extended periods of overtime eventually lead to lower employee morale, worker fatigue and quality control issues.
Let’s face it – People NEED a Kel-Tec like they NEED a Harley-Davidson. We have other options. I respect a company that grows its capacity at a controlled pace.
Or you could do what we do in the BioTech/Pharma industry and run rotating 12 hr shifts so you only need 4 shifts to cover 24/7. It only costs 4 hrs OT every 2 weeks. Its industry standard for us since we can’t leave cultures unattended.
I work in the Soft Gel Capsule industry and we do the same thing. It’s actually nice for the employees since we only work seven shifts in two weeks.
We tried three 8 hour shifts, but the down time on weekends plus throwing out thousands of kilos of Gel every weekend was killing our profits.
The only thing the Bioheck industry and the satan worshiping scum in it need to do is be exterminated like the subvermin they are. You should be worrying about destroying a world full of life, not worrying about your dumb job you stupid slave. -nukes Monsanto-
I respect that they stay out of debt.
On the flip side if they had borrowed some money, they could’ve sold a lot more pocket .380 pistols before Ruger copied their design.
I owned one of the double stack 9mm’s and it was totally reliable it just had a really heavy trigger.
I would like to have a Sub-2000 and an RMR-30, love both designs.
I don’t recall there ever being a problem with Kel-Tec pocket pistols being out of stock. At least, every local gun store I’ve been to so far, did have a P3AT on display; sometimes also a P32. So I’m sure that they’ve sold as many as time (before the first clone, that being Ruger) allowed them.
3 SHIFTS 5 DAYS A WEEK IS 120 HOURS YOUR 84 SEEMS PAULTRY COMPARED
I’ve done a lot of work for companies who wanted to become or were re-certifying as ISO-9001 and it is not an easy process, just the documentation requirements are staggering. Hopefully, being ISO certified will clean-up their dread quality control issues. Kel-Tec makes cool guns but they also make guns with issues. I have yet to see or own a Kel-Tec rifle that didn’t need to make a return trip to Florida at least once.
It’s amazing how many gun folk dish on KT guns, then fuss because they can’t get a KT gun in the same breath. Kel-Tec represents the best in American entrepreneurship — an immigrant with fresh, risky ideas growing sustainably for the long-term benefit of its employees and customers. They carved out a niche instead of riding the bandwagon, and its working for them. Keep up the good work.
Personally, I see Kel-Tec’s quality control issues as very frustrating, because all those guns being returned and worked on is taking resources away from producing more guns. They have some very clever designs, and there’s at least three or four K-T guns I’d love to own, but right now, they really seem like a prototyping company that outsources beta testing to their customers.
It might be armchair quarterbacking, but why not license some of their less-popular designs to someone else and free up those manufacturing resources to produce the more in-demand models?
+1. Check out the Kel-tec Owners Group
( http://www.thektog.org/forum/ )
Most seem pretty happy with their Kel-Tecs, and very appreciative of customer service at the company.
Well, uh, yeah. Would you join a forum for something you don’t like? Except to possibly find help fixing a problem?
I have nothing but Praise for Keltec, I was carrying a Keltec p32 inside my Motorcycle Jacket when I had a big boo boo, a few months later I shot that pistol, it fired once and then no more, would not cock the hammer after firing,
Sent it in too Keltec and they basically changed all the parts so it went bang every time and did not cost me a dime, gun was completely out of any warranty,
Around my neck of the woods Keltec is not as popular as other brands so I see no difference in availability!
I’d love to have access to a LGS with kel-Tec available.
I’ve been on a waiting list for a PMR-30 since they came out.
Checked last week- I’m now name number 12 on the list
It wasn’t out of warranty. Lifetime for the original owner, but they’ll still fix it for free for any potential subsequent owners
Good report. Thanks for the info. While I don’t love it, I can certainly respect their decision not to borrow $$$ and possibly end up over-leveraged, protecting themselves from becoming vulnerable to being bought out or getting caught with their pants down in the event of some major change outside of their control (ie – a new gun law that changes the whole game). I do wish there was some middle ground options though as you noted… I was personally able to get the KT’s that I wanted, but at a bit of a premium (because of the low supply).
My only wish is that they would offer a high-quality version of the Sub 2000 made of carbon fiber, high grade steel components (trigger, hammer, bolt carrier, etc), with a few design refinements, made with the highest level of QC – and offer it at a higher price point. The design itself is pretty awesome and unique and I believe would be a real contender if it were made of the highest quality materials and craftsmanship. Mine needed a fluff and buff just to get it to stop FTE’ing the last round in a Mag (because of the way the underside of the bolt interacts with the hammer when no round is in the mag).
I sometimes imagine what an awesome piece this would be if it were made of the highest quality materials and craftsmanship, with a great (metal) trigger, a built in sling attachment point, a really well made carbon fiber receiver and handguard (metal reinforced at the pivot point), high quality metal sites (with the rear sight elevated about .25 inches), the buffer tube cover included, high quality steel internals, a slightly bigger (height wise) buttstock to fit the shoulder better, and an flush piece of rail on the top of the handguard, so you can slap on a QD red dot, a better option for a rail piece underneath for a VFG, etc, etc.
Much of this you can customize on your own, or get aftermarket stuff, but can’t change the receiver or internals too much – and investing too much in something with a possibly limited lifespan seems questionable.
I love the Keltec sub2k Glock mag. It is the most fun gun to shoot out of my collection. I agree, an all metal one would be awesome and I will be willing to pay top $$$ for it. I had the same issue with the last round FTEject. It seems that it is mostly a mag issue. I’m curious what was your “fluff and buff” fix. I had also an issue with an empty shell cutting in the feed ramp (still worked but I replace it just to be sure is reliable). Having a metal one would be a nice upgrade. Meanwhile, just stocked up on that part. I can attest to their awesome Customer Service. I never had to send my gun in, but when calling, they even offered to send me the parts for free. Shooting the KSG is also a lot of fun but requires some training to get it right. All in all, it is an awesome company that creates great products.
Yeah, I have one in .40 and one in 9mm. I also had the issue with empty shells cutting up the ejection port and found it was mostly on that last round (that would stovepipe about half of the time). It wasn’t mag related. It was related to the way that the underside of the bolt group interfaces with the hammer, as on the last round, there is no round in the mag to offset the friction of the bolt interfacing with the hammer on it’s way back, causing it to choke and FTE about half of the time. I polished both the underside of the bolt where it interfaces with the hammer and also the hammer (as well as the ejector) and also make sure that part is well lubed before shooting and saw the FTE rate decrease considerably.
If you try racking the bolt back with a round in the mag, then rack it without a round in the mag, you’ll probably notice what I’m saying better. Note: I also have the issue with trying to re-assemble it, where I need to use a wooden dowel to push down on the hammer a little bit to get the bolt group back in- and seems to be related to the issue I was seeing. I tried to break in the hammer spring a little while I was in the gun as well. I also kept the bolt locked back when in storage (because I found that the issue seemed to exist MUCH more so on the 9mm and not the 40, as I believe they both use the same spring which is a bit too stiff for 9mm, but not for .40) – and I racked the thing about 10,000 times to break it all in a little bit too. Anyway, I could go on and on about what I’ve done with mine…. KTOG has a lot of good info as well…
I too would pay top dollar for a real high quality (metal or carbon fiber) version of the sub2k, with all of these issues addressed and a few minor design refinements (ie – higher, rear metal site, better front site, built in sling attachment point, slightly higher buttstock, metal trigger, flush rail built into design (but can still swing it shut if nothing attached, etc, etc).
Aren’t there carbine uppers for Glock and 1911 frames out there? i wonder how those compare to the S2000.
http://www.mechtechsys.com/
Folding in half to like 16.5″ in length is probably the biggest thing that differentiates the Sub2000 in a really meaningful way vs all of the other pistol caliber carbines on the market.
See my post below get the tacticool buffer and see if that helps u
I own a MecTec CCU for the 1911 (going to do a review for it after I’ve taken it out to shoot some more.)
It is completely metal (mainly steel) and is really amazing.
Using their telescoping stock, the gun breaks down to 24 inches in length.
Really great company with a great product.
Friends don’t let friends buy Keltec….
My S2000 in 40 was fun until it blew apart in my hands…
Yeah, saw that Tex. One of my concerns with investing a lot of $$ into mine and one reason why a stronger design would be very helpful (ie, a metal or carbon receiver, reinforced at the point where yours broke)
I’d buy both a PMR30 and Sub2K (well, I’d actually buy two, one in Sig flavor and one in Glock) IF (1) I could actually find them in the wild, and (2) LGS didn’t mark them up to 2-3X retail (and they actually get buyers at those prices).
Nope, I think RFBs, PMRs, and Sub2Ks are the actual ‘Ghost Guns’ until otherwise proven 😀
Grammar police:
Disinterested means unbiased. I think you were looking for uninterested. For example: football referees should be interested and disinterested.
I pride myself on my usage of the English language, and I didn’t know that. Now I know, and knowing is half the battle!
It means both things and any dictionary will list unbiased as one definition and “not interested / indifferent” as another definition. 😉
I hate my KTs. All six of them. Looking for #s 7-10 to increase my hatred of them. It will be a life-long pursuit of misery.
You sound like YankeeMarshal…
Not sure who Yankee Marshall is (I guess I ain’t paying attention too well).
Just a southern hayseed. But, I was dumb enough to not take the $289 PMR-30 (or 5-6 of them) from Bud’s a few years ago.
The Yankee Marshall is a YouTube personality that does a lot of gun reviews. He has a love/hate relationship with all of his guns. He will praise one gun as the best thing ever made in one video and turn around in the next video condemn the same gun as pot metal garbage..
I have a Kel-tec p-3AT thats a perfect pocket pistol, its almost a clone to the ruger LCP . A little small in the grip, But carrys in your pocket perfectly.
I think you have that backward. It’s not the P3AT that’s the clone.
Have you shot it much? I sold my P3AT shortly after buying it. Took a decent loss just to get rid of it.
I have about 200 rnds thru it.. I couldnt hit my ass with both hands with it past 20 yrds.. it’s more of a 7 to 10 yrd tool…. My wife is a crack shot with it, it fits her hands better.. Havnt had any feeding issues or jamming…I like it because its so small and I can carry it without any discomfort..it makes a great back up gun.
Why is your ass 20 yards away from you? And why would you try to shoot it at that range?
Bought a 40sw sub2000 glock23 config last week. 450 after all expenses. Shot a few hundred rounds of pmc fmj and ppu hp with no hiccups at all yesterday. Sights were odd but I got used to them. Love the gun. Should’ve seen the look on the girl’s face in the booth next to me when I unfolded it for shooting lol priceless.
Great. Can I buy a sub 2k now?
Good plan… and I think you can shoot them at Bullseye too..
Yes:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Semi-Auto-Rifles/BI.aspx?Keywords=sub+2000
Good article. I kudos about staying away from “bitchiness.”
That said, as a commentor, I do not need to have the burden of objectivity. My experience with Kel-Tecs has been very negative. Many of their products look rough around the edges. Neat designs, yes but when SHTF and there’s a zombie hoard at my door step, the answer is Glock every time.
They look rough do they?
So you’ve never owned one, then?
The problem with Kel-tec’s reputation is all the people who’ve never owned one that spread the rumors.
^^^ This
If you don’t own one then STFU. Shooting your buddies once only verifies that your buddy probably f’ed his up before he let you shoot it. I don’t let other people work on my guns for the same reason I don’t let other people work on my bike. I don’t shoot other people’s guns/ride other’s bike for the same reason. My life depends on their proper operation.
I don’t know what some clown did to their bike/gun (even if said clown is a good friend), and I don’t know just how good that “gunsmith” or “mechanic” is. I’ve spent way too much time fixing “professionals” mistakes on my bikes to ever go there again or to even let my gun go to a gunsmith.
I mean, just for starters, the first time I took a bike in to get worked on was because my fork seals were leaking. I got it back, rode like crap, so I took the forks apart myself. They forgot to put oil in the forks. Or the time a place changed my oil and forgot to tighten the new oil filter. Or that time they punched a hole in my gas shock and just gave it back, Or…
And those are the pros. What are untrained mechanics/”operators” doing to their guns/bikes? Or to mine?
I’ve had 2 keltecs. A PF9 & a Sub2000. PF9 was the worst piece of junk I ever owned. Still wish I had the Sub2000. Sold it for a loss right before the bubble(arg). Serious QC issues…even worse than everyone’s favorite whipping boy Taurus.(I’ve had 4 with ZERO issues). I think Keltec could sell millions of guns a year IF they got their s##t together. I would buy a KSG, Sub2000,PMR,SU’s ,bullpup if I got a deal. But try finding one at your LGS.
I’ve shot a few keltec handguns and honestly? I do not know why they’re so popular at all. Just flat not that great. Couple that with the quality control issues and I’m just at a loss.
There is also price and weight, where they are very competitive.
Kel-Tec needs to take a break from releasing new designs. Their catalog is growing faster than their manufacturing capability.
Personally, while I think a lot of their designs are neat, their dubious QC keeps me away from buying anything they make.
Thanks for shedding some light in an objective manner.
I have had many Kel-Tec firearms, and have never had any trouble with any of them that wasn’t my fault. The only reason I ever sold them was to purchase similar other firearms that I perceived to be an upgrade from the KT. In reality, I have never realized any additional utility from the money I’ve spent letting KTs go to buy “nicer” firearms.
I have had probably 3 different P3AT pistols and never had one jam.
I had a SU16 that was an awesome little gun.
I also had 3 trouble-free PF9s.
The only problem I ever had with a KT was when I tried to run some gun show reloads through a PF9. I had a case head rupture and blow the extractor out. At first I thought it was the gun’s fault, so I started shooting the same ammo out of my M&P. Then a case head ruptured on the M&P too but didn’t damage it. Realizing I’d purchased bad ammo with some over-pressure charges, improperly sized cases, or some other flaw, I threw the rest of that junk away and called KT customer service. They had me ship the PF9 to them and 3 weeks later I received my repaired PF9, free of charge, which continued to function flawlessly.
So, having had zero problems with Kel-Tecs I’ve had, when people tell me of all the trouble they have with KT the first questions I ask them are “what are you feeding it?” and “how are you holding it?” That usually reveals the problem. However, I did meet a guy at the range one time who could not get his PF9 to work. He was using good ammo, and I couldn’t see anything obviously flawed when watching his form. Still, he kept getting FTEs. But then I shot his gun with the same ammo and it worked fine for me. After years of seeing people have problems with guns, and having a few of my own, I have started to theorize that some gun designs just don’t work in the hands of specific shooters, somehow due to the shape of the grip and the shape or mass of the shooter’s hands. For instance, I am the only person I know who absolutely cannot shoot the broad side of a barn with a M&P9c or Shield. Put that same gun in someone else’s hand and everything is fine. Sure there will be some production issues, and some designs are more robust than others, but I have yet to experience any design-inherent flaws with KT guns that would keep me from considering them for future purchases.
Those are just my experiences. I realize that they are statistically insignificant.
Interesting read. Sadly, the author hasn’t addressed the biggest rumor of all: Kel-Tec’s sub-par quality.
As a college student (read: no $$) and recent CCW permit holder, the PF-9 seems like a very appealing gun. However, I’ve heard a lot of conflicting statements regarding the gun’s build quality, reliability and accuracy. The same seems to be said regarding a lot of Kel-Tec firearms.
I read this article hoping some light would be shed on that topic. Alas, it wasn’t meant to be.
The ISO 9001 certification should lead to positive changes in QC.
I waited almost 4 years for my PMR 30 and it was worth it. I paid under list and have fired more than 400 rounds with no problems. My PF 9 also is flawless, but not as much fun to shoot.
I’ll be waiting for a RMR 30 when they become available. If any of the negative posters can run a company better, do it. You know that the government is there to help you… RIGHT!
Just looked at Gunbroker. KSG’ s selling at above retail( mostly). Add in shipping & FFL fee & you get more than $1000. Does anyone know the current MSRP? It was $800,then $880. From what I understand the feeding issues have been solved. I’d put one on layaway at my favorite LGS if the price was reasonable.
Kel-Tec lists MSRP for all of its firearms on its site: http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/ksg/shotgun/
It does not matter how many PMR’s they put out now, or what the price comes down to. Not in Colorado, since 7/1/13. Grrrrrrrr
Kel-Tec has abyssmal quality control & even worse customer service. If you consistently make products that do not function straight from the factory, maybe you’re in the wrong line of work. Greatest pleasure I ever got from my PF9 was trading it for something that worked. They make interesting designs, but buying their products is no different than burning your money. Kel-Tecs are novelties. It’s just like Apple products; the people clamoring for the cool new Kel-Tec are the same ones lining up for an iPhone in a new color.
We’ve all seen plenty of QC complaints, but KT’s customer service is almost always held in very high regard (this can been seen in comments above — QC issues, great CS). By nearly all accounts they are very responsive and accommodating. My only personal experience relates to the updated barrel design for the PMR-30. I called them like a year after they released the new design to say my PMR-30 had the old barrel version and I wanted to buy a new one. They asked me for my address and immediately mailed me the new barrel plus a new buffer and such at no cost.
Hopefully the dedicated machines for specific firearms models plus ISO 9001:2008 certification will help with quality control.
I appreciate the article for giving us what might be seen as a behind the scenes look at Kel-Tec’s “issues”. However, I have to say, it just sounds like more excuses from a company that makes very sub par products. Defective firearms that are brand new in box, shoddy workmanship and horrible quality control are just SOME of the many problems that are evident with the vast majority of their models. I’m not just jumping on the “bash Kel-Tec” bandwagon either. I speak from personal experience while also having dealt with many unhappy customers (yes I work in the industry).
Honestly, the running joke in the industry seems to be “Friends don’t let friends buy Kel-Tec” and it’s for very good reason IMHO. If you want a quality product, stick with the big six – S&W, Glock, Springfield, Beretta, HK, Sig Sauer. Just my $.02
Frankly, other than the part about ISO 9001:2008 certification (which was mentioned primarily due to how it affected production volume during the process), the article was not meant to address quality one way or the other. I only asked them about keeping up with demand and what, if anything, Kel-Tec is doing along those lines. Although plenty of people have QC concerns, most of the negative comments I have seen on TTAG and in person at the range and at my LGS had to do with product scarcity and price gouging by those who have it to sell, and I thought this line of questioning would result in more meaningful answers than trying to have the company somehow prove that it was increasing quality control. I think only time will show on that.
Not interested in their products or plans. Just more craptastic plastic.
Good talk. Obviously not everyone is in the same boat with you, as demonstrated by the demand for these guns vastly outstripping supply for some time now. To the point it has caused widespread frustration. Craptastic or plastic isn’t really within the scope of the post, which was supposed to only relate to supply/demand issues. If everyone had unlimited funds, I frankly wouldn’t expect to see a whole ton of folks carrying a P-3AT or PF-9 when other, arguably nicer options can be had for multiple times the price. I carry a Beretta Nano, for instance, and sometimes an H&K P7. However, I still own a PMR-30 because it’s a ton of freakin’ fun to shoot. I don’t carry it (mainly because I don’t trust rimfire ammo reliability… the gun itself has been fine for me).
There is definitely a subset of gun owners who automatically consider absolutely anything under a certain price point to be crap and anything made with plastic to be crap. JWM, I don’t think you’re actually a member of that group, but it exists and it’s not a small group. We all know how vocal these folks were with the advent of the M16 and then again when Glock started hitting the scene. Even though both platforms have proven themselves, there are still folks who think a handgun under $xxx is a POS Saturday Night Special and that polymer is for tupperware only. Fine. It really doesn’t change a dang thing about Kel-Tec’s ability to manufacture enough firearms to meet demand though. Just that your personal demand is met even without the company existing in the first place 😉
Um…I quit going to the Keltec site after it took(maybe) 12 months to remove some very nasty MALWARE.. MSRP $990…& no MALWARE warning. Current KSG price.
Whatever the reality of or reason(s) behind this company’s performance and public perception, all of these problems could have and should have been resolved long ago while working within the relevant constraints and decision criteria.
By their own admission, their barrels are only good up to 6K rounds. That’s ridiculously amateurish and low rent right there and calls into question any of the high principled explanations put forth in this apologist piece.
As someone who makes these types of business decisions himself, as well as professionally advising others in making theirs for their businesses, that this condition has lingered this long speaks volumes about the owners. I see successful businesses every day, which have long since outgrown the once-sufficient capabilities of their founding entrepreneurs, succumb to that crushing narcissism compelling them to hold on when they should turn the business over to professional business executives. The backside of the success curve gets real ugly real fast and can plunge formerly wonderful companies into tailspins and crashes if the founders don’t wake up, set aside their egos and step aside.
Best of luck to you, Kel-Tec.
Look I only own a single Kel-Tec firearm and I’m no fanboy or anything. I posted this piece because I thought KT could address supply/demand issues in a meaningful fashion and, while I expected comments around quality control issues, I did not plan to actually respond to any of them as it’s outside of the scope of this blog post. But, I’m going to briefly give my $0.02 (maybe 1 cent) on the following:
“By their own admission, their barrels are only good up to 6K rounds. That’s ridiculously amateurish and low rent…”
Their FAQ says the expected lifetime of their firearms is 6,000 rounds or more. Not “up to” and not barrel-specific. But, by way of comparison, our own military expects a 6,000-round life for M4 barrels. That said, it’s my personal opinion that the price is commensurate with this sort of expected life and that the expected life is commensurate with the intended usage. If you want a compact 9mm that is designed to fly on past 6,000 rounds you can get one. It probably won’t run you $269 like a PF-9 will. I wouldn’t buy most of their models for heavy duty range or competition use and they aren’t designed for that. This blurb in the FAQ was up when all they were selling was the super sub-compact pocket pistols and I’d honestly be shocked to hear if any end user has ever even approached that sort of round count from a PF-9, P-11, P-32, or P-3AT. I have no clue how it may or may not apply to the newer guns like PMR-30, KSG, or the Sub2000.
You’re playing the technicality card on me with “up to”, as opposed to “or more?” Ok, I’ll bend on that, because you’re right.
Still, “expected” means what, 51% probability? There’s no standard deviation mentioned, but whatever it is, it means that double digit percentages of their barrels could last far less than the cryptically phrased “6,000 or more.” So it could mean very little, whether applied to compacts pistols or others. With so little clarity given, there is naturally so little benefit of the doubt returned. Really, that they even need to address the question (frequently no less!), strongly suggests people’s experiences, expectations and concerns with the brand.
Are they “budget” guns? That’s one way of putting it. The fact is though that for twice the money, or even less, one could purchase perhaps a five or ten times better compact pistol from someone else, measured by barrel life alone. Say, Glock, for example. If it’s really just a just-to-have-it firearm, then quality probably doesn’t much matter, which is cool as long as people know what they’re getting. I doubt many newbies do, and that’s where I look askance at KT. As for their over-hyped, overpriced vaporware? That’s a decision for full grown men and women, presumably informed at that price point, to make for themselves. To each his own.
I’m all for live and let live. I don’t happen to take either their products or their company very seriously, but you’re free to do whatever and that’s cool, too. I also think addressing some of the perceptions out there was a good and valuable article topic. Things have a way a settling into unearned fact status just because they’re repeated often enough. So an airing of views does the community well. Thanks for that.
Agreed. But… they also have a fully transferable lifetime warranty (the gun itself is warranted for life) and, by basically all accounts, are really good about it. Even if your gun wore itself out in some way — barrel or otherwise (again, they don’t say barrel life they say expected life of a Kel-Tec firearm) — in 4,000 rounds or 6,000 rounds or 10,000 rounds, they may well repair or replace it. I don’t think the language is very cryptic. If you look at the FAQ the question is, “what is the expected life of a Kel-Tec firearm” and the answer is, “All Kel-Tec firearms have an expected life of 6,000 rounds or more.” So you question why don’t they post stats and does it mean 51% or what, and Kel-Tec clearly says “all.” In my mind the meaning of this is “I own a Kel-Tec, how long can I expect it to last” and the company is saying “you can fully expect the gun in your hands to last at least 6,000 rounds.” You can search for between the lines meaning and try to creatively interpret it but I think it’s pretty straightforward language. It’s also a pretty blunt/forward and candid thing to put out there. Now you know that if you want a gun that is expected to run 10,000 or more rounds you can take your money elsewhere (plus add some more money). If it helps you make an informed decision, I can’t see how it’s bad.
Actually, their FAQ says lifetime of the product and for the original owner ONLY, on the warranty. How is that transferable to follow the gun, as you claim? You’d suggested earlier that their website may be out of date, for having applied to an earlier period with a more limited product line? Hmmm….is this yet another oops moment for Kel Tec? Some kind of mix up between website and the written warranty? Ahhh…the Interwebz….them sites is crafty I tell yer what! Who knows *what* to believe out of them, which, has been my point all along…..
As for the warranty wording, it covers defects in materials and workmanship. That can be impossible to prove, as opposed to misuse/abuse, and ultimately it comes down to their say-so. Or else what? You’ll sue? Over a three bill throw down piece? Please. And for your information, entire industries and professional fields exist to parse words and favorably interpret meanings. That’s not new and shouldn’t surprise anyone. “Expected” may not be an infinitely elastic term, but it’s certainly stretchy enough that I wouldn’t bet on it.
I get what you’re saying about common understandings, since that’s probably what they want you to believe. There’s just too much wiggle room to pin them down. I’m just saying that if you ever pressed these people on it, I seriously doubt they’d cave. They’d fight every inch and make you prove your round count, which you could do, how, exactly? Exactly. If it ever became a big issue, they’d lawyer up faster than you could say “class action lawsuit.” They are what they are and that’s that. No sense tilting at windmills here. Sheesh. I’m done on this, so the last word is yours if you choose.
Nah, I agree with you pretty much across the board there. I’d only add that in all of the Kel-Tec customer service / warranty experiences I have heard from online (some are in this comment thread) and in person, including my own experience, the company is extremely accommodating. Regardless of whatever may or may not be on their website in the fine print. You’re totally right that it says original owner. I thought it was more like Taurus’ fully transferable warranty based on commentary from folks who have had their firearms fixed by KT. Seems like they may have that in place as a CYA but, in practice, just fix things and send replacement parts on a mostly no-questions-asked policy. That could certainly change in the future I suppose. So far the service seems to outpace the price of the products though. Whether one thinks “6,000 rounds or more” is really low, appropriate, or high for these guns I suppose is simply subjective.
ISO 9000/9001 has nothing to do with quality.
The only thing that having 9000/9001-compliant practices do for you is insure repeatability. You could be producing utter crap, but if you have ISO 9000 compliant processes, you’ll produce crap all the time.
As I liked to say when going through an ISO 9000 compliance audit: “If we wanted to have a cat crap in our product boxes before we shipped, as long as we had documented processes for the breed, age, sex and what we fed the cats to produce the crap, then we’d be ISO 9000 compliant. Our customers would still wonder why they’re opening up a box with crap in them, however.”
In my mind, quality control means repeatability. Kel-Tec ships plenty of guns that work 100% across the board no issues. Then some people seem to get total lemons of the same model (and, of course, lemons happen from basically every company but the real question is the percentage). Every meaningful accusation of quality issues with Kel-Tec is not that X gun model is junk it’s that a certain percentage of X gun model doesn’t work properly from the factory. Ideally the ISO compliance will help with QC and will bring the misses up to the correct standard and create repeatability there, not bring the correct standard down to the misses haha
If you make crap every time, you have repeatability… and no quality.
As I said above: ISO 9000/9001 has nothing to do with quality. It is about documenting production processes so that there is consistency. I’ve been through ISO 9000/9001 certification and the net:net is that that it is yet another practical joke foisted upon the western world by British bureaucrats.
Right. I still don’t disagree with you on that. I just think consistency is precisely what Kel-Tec needs, above other variables, as the most important next step to improving the end product.
If you’re trying to say that Kel-Tec only produces crap and the best examples of their guns are crap, so being consistent at the top level simply means more of their best crap, then fine. We diverge there. I think the vast majority of their guns run just fine and if they bring down the percentage of ‘lemons’ that require repair when new they’ll be in a significantly better place. Six sigma and all that.
I’m not saying that Kel-Tec produces crap or “only crap.” I’m just saying that ISO9K isn’t going to improve the quality of any manufacturing company.
In particular, one of the things missing from ISO9K and real quality processes is a feedback loop. The best practices in quality manufacturing requires a feedback loop from the point where quality issues are ID’ed back to as far up the production change as it takes to fix them. In the case of a firearms company, that would require customers be able to return their guns to the manufacture, get an evaluation whether the cause was a manufacturing/materials/assembly defect, etc and then initiate changes to prevent future instances. There are very few gun companies that do this.
Those Mazaks look awfully familiar….
I have a PMR-30. It is a very fun pistol to shoot and people always notice it. I picked it up new for $380 and it is worth the price.
Only downside is that since getting it I have had the front site, takedown pin, and firing pin break. The good news is they are all easy to replace and Kel-Tec will send you new parts for free.
I can understand that the confusion of expansion and certification can slow things down and I commend them for not adding to the nation’s debt problems BUT….
If you are having these kinds of issues, don’t keep putting new ideas out there that people will clamor over and chase down only to be told time after time about delay after delay. Don’t introduce something and show it off year after year at SHOT Show when it will not be available for years to come. It leaves a bad taste in the mouth of the consumer.
Also, when there is proposed legislation that would affect one of your designs and your response is to jack the price up because of the increased demand? That is just plain insulting to the consumer. And then to put out a press statement saying that the legislation is the ONLY reason for the increase??? Magpul was faced with legislation as well and what did they do? They saturated the market with their product. They even gave DISCOUNTS to those that lived in the area of most effect. Poor form KelTec, poor form.
I will be honest, the entirety of what I think of KT from this point forward hinges on the RMR-30. I am fed up with delays and announcements that fail to produce results. I am tired of it being put on the shelf for one reason or another. I am tired of the excuses. To be told that they were shelving the program because they didn’t know if it would be part of a legislative ban and then only to shelve it again in favor of the KSG which was subject to the same threat of being banned??? Sorry, doesn’t hold water.
I will be waiting for 3rd quarter this year. If KelTec stays true to their word (this time) then I will send them some of my hard earned money and see what they have put forth; and my ‘Word of Mouth’ advertising will reflect upon that. If they delay it again, then I am done with them, will sell my PMR-30 for whatever I can get for it and my WoM Advertising will reflect that too. They have to realize their stock isn’t the greatest right now and they need to hit this out of the park. Produce what you say you are going to produce and stop introducing new designs until you have satisfied that which you have already promised.
We are waiting. We are watching.
Where’s the real story? Like what’s behind Keltec’s ADHD? We’re gonna build a SU16 300blk! Bullpups, coming SOON™! Salt Bath Nitriding barrels replacing chrome! I mean, I admire their cash only business model, but their needs to be a serious talk about their complete inability to follow through on anything not related to handguns.
Criticise Keltec all you want, but I’d be ecstatic if the fedguv were as inept as they are now but stayed in the black. At least taxpayers won’t be bailing Keltec out.
Great article. I own a P32, a P11, a PF9 and a Sub 2000. All work fine and are good guns for the money. Wouldn’t sell any of them.
My p3at had been my carry since 2011.
I also have an SU-22, I love this little rifle! In the world of ipsc mini-rifle, I’m the lone kel-tec in a sea of cmmg conversion rifles and tricked out archangel ruger 10/22s. I love the attention I get when I blast through a course w/o malfunctions!
Fixing a sub 2000 in 9mm if the problem is the bolt carrier getting hung up in the hammer face, no dremmel required 🙂
1) lube it up with frog lube
2) get the buffer thingy from tacticool (it is a cushion thing that goes on the spring and reduces felt recoil, I’ve been up for 20 hours now so my English is suffering, google it and u will know what I’m talking about.
3) dry rack the bolt carrier about 100 times, initially you will feel the roughness as it slides back, over time you will stop feeling this… Do it while sitting on the can so you don’t waste precious time.
4) take the gun apart about ten times and when installing the bolt carrier back in don’t use a rod to push the hammer down as people recommend but rather use some force on the charging handle to bring the bolt carrier forward… It will get easier after a few times.
5) done, the action should feel a lot smoother now and the buffer tube will keep the bolt from going 100% back when firing so it won’t get stuck again. having done this I’ve had zero problems in over 800 rounds.
6) use the dremmel for installing a magpul ar buttstock on my ak… A whole ‘nother story.
Having spent 25 years in manufacturing, I can tell you that Kel-Tec is telling it like it is. Many respondents here simply do not understand how manufacturing works. Many gun companies, and others have sunk because they expanded beyond what their finances and available talent could support. Manufacturing simply does not “turn on a dime”. Attempts to do this usually result in quality control failures and customer disillusionment. The only partial exception are government contracts which allow companies to run like hell and damn the waste because the government is paying for it. Trust me, you do not want any company to “hurry” in making guns or anything else you want. Also, in the current market, extended overtime results in fatigue and morale problems and these will show up in the quality of the product. In other cases companies have put pressure on final inspectors to let shoddy products out the door. You don’t want this either. Considering the climate in the shooting world right now, we all just have to be PATIENT.
I spent some time with Matt with Kel-Tec at this past SHOT show and he offered some encouraging words for Kel-Tec. After talking to him he have me the chance to review the PLR-16 from Kel-Tec and it turned out to be a fine pistol.
http://rangehot.com/good-time/
In case you are interested.
“Kel Tec will not borrow money” Translate to mean “No bank will lend them money”
One thing Kel Tec has going for them is there’s no competition for most of their more popular products. If you want a four pound, folding, pistol caliber carbine; your gonna wait a year and it’s going to be a sub2K! I don’t see why some of the bigger manufacturers won’t bring some similar products to the market. Kel Tec clearly can’t keep up with demand and there’s a lot of money to be had!
“We will not borrow money to expand operations”?? Who the hell talks like that..is this 1947 and grandpa’s horse shoe company? Talk about missing the boat. With current demand for the product, the meager loan would be paid off in a year…The ROI supports getting the damn loan and running the business like it should be. They got ISO certified, so someone is thinking..now they just need to convince the business team.. The reward far outweighs the risks in this situation. Sounds like they should maybe sell the business to someone who can actually grow it and not tick off customers waiting for years… the product is good, but not amazing. This should be a 24×7 operation at this point. 200 employees is not huge…100-125 per shift, can get the job done and orders expedited. No new building needed…just some good maintenance and PM teams.
There is a guy named Hank Strange on YouTube that visits Kel Tec’s facilities. Its a great view into how Kel Tec makes their guns and how they have expanded recently. I was impressed with their employees and believe that they are doing everything that they can to get quality guns out to the market. Growth is painful and so is not being able to sell thousands of more guns when the market is hot. Kel Tec would love to sell more guns and make more profits.
I understand it is easy to jump on the hate wagon, I have had an incredible experience with various kel tec weapons. The latest is my KSG. While I have read the negative comments I have dispelled them for myself. The only complaint I have is not being able to shoot it every day…
Two years ago I put down a deposit on two PMR-22 mag pistols and two RMR-22 mag rifles.
I just read your insiteful article on Keltec. And while I have received my two PMR pistols I have not received my RMR rifles and get no response from Keltec.
Does keltec really make or intend to make RMR-22 magnum rifles, I understand u do not speak for the company but it seams you may have some insite, certainly more than I do.
The RMR-30 is now called the CMR-30, has a few design improvements since the protos, and will begin shipping late this year. I want one too.
Still waiting and saving my pennies (a lot of pennies) for a CMR-30 Carbine and the awesome RFB .308 bullpup. These new designs are an epic leap above their older, cheap handguns.
I’ve been interested in the sub 2000 9mm for a while but these folks out here are stupid trying to sale these $250 guns for $600 +, If Kel Tec can’t meet demand on an item they are manufacturing why even build it? I’ve been in the OEM market for 30+ years and if you don’t move with the trend in the market place where the demand is people will go somewhere else and basically say screw Kel Tec they can’t even supply what they advertise. If you think you can supply me with A Kel Tec Sub 2000 9mm, soon let me know but I damn sure am not going to pay 2 to 3 times the price you are offering a $250 gun. If not I will build my own in my machine shop or purchase another. It isn’t rocket science and if you don’t get on the band wagon soon people will loose interest with the lead times you are offering I will assure you that the interest will go away before you know it, I have already seen a decline in interest due to availability. You are going to kill your market appeal before you reach the top if you ever do get there. From what I see you Kel Tec I don’t see reaching the top due to your production or lack of it.
If they were a publicly traded company, their board would be out on their ear. If you don’t want to go into long-term debt, borrow enough money so that your near-term orders will cover it, or sell some equity, or just contract it out. You HAVE TO strike while the iron is hot.
The KSG isn’t my jam, but if it was, I’d probably have bought a UTS-15 by now. I want a Glock mag Sub 2000, but I would be surprised if Kel Tec came out with decent quantities of them, before Glock comes up with their own carbine! I may buy a CX4, in the meantime. There was buzz about the RFB, but people are rapidly moving on.
Wouldn’t buy another Kel-tec as long as I live! As long as you support a child murderer, i will never purchase another one of your products!
All this is find, but I just looked at Guns International site and they are advertizing LOTS of PMR-30’s at an outrageously bloated price….so where are they getting the guns when no one else can get them? They have to get them from Keltec who obviously must be in on the deal for extra profit!! I have several Keltec’s and am regretting it, seriously!
Kel-Tec can run the company how they want for sure. All I would like is a new black PMR 30.
How many KSG’s have Kel-Tec sold?
Its real easy to be a arm-chair quarteback in this case. I can say this out of personal experience. I bought a sub 2k in 9mm. One of the best shooting guns I have ever had. My wife who never shot a gun in her life makes bulleyes at 50 at the range. Now she loves guns and I owe it to kel tec for reasonable prices, decent quality and WONDERFUL customer service. The laws of supply and demand dictate the price of these guns out in the field. Not Kel Tec. If there is a problem they fix it fast. They aim to please. They may have issues but they try to correct them, which now-a-days is a real plus. I say they lean out their product line and focus on quality. Farm out some designs to other companies, make the sub 2k in .45. Getting a loan is no issue they have capital and equity. Case in point Bose used to make some awesome quality things, once the old man died, the investors came in, and they are a shell, not like the original. People shouldn’t bash a company trying to do the right thing. So what you can’t what you want from them like yesterday, get over yourselves. I just picked up another sub 2k in .40 cal. so they are available. While little things can be better like flashing finishing, no big deal its a $450 gun that due to its simple pure design works like it should. Any of you that feel you can do better get the capital up and open your own gun company, and chances are you will fail. Kel tec is surviving and thriving in an increasingly gun hostile america.
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have owned a p3at for over 5 years happy with it. would like to purchase a pmr-30 but refuse to pay scalper prices for it. if kel-tec does not get it’s shit together and meet consumers demand for it’s product i will never purchase another one of it’s products.
I’d love to see a compact version of the PMR 30. Say a 15 round mag with a 3-31/2 inch barrel for a carry gun.
Two years later… Still no Sub 2000…
What’s Keltec’s excuse now? I have waited long enough, I guess I will give up and buy a Glock conversion.
I have unlimited 45 call ammo…..PLEASE MAKE THE SUB2K IN A 45 CAL….PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE……THE 9 AND 40 are way too small…..the SUB2K could be again one of the greatest guns ever made….THE THOMPSON 45 CAL…..PLEASE MAKE IT I WILL BUY IT AND 1000’S WILL ALSO….PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE…
3 shifts 5 DAYS A WEEK. Looks to me they need to consider the 7 day option!
Still looking for a PMR 30, my son got hold of one, a newer version, could not believe how good it felt in my hand, tried it and fell in love with it. Now the hunt goes on lol !
I have been waiting for years…. I still do not own a Sub 2000. 🙁
I bought a Gen 2 in the coveted G19 mag version last week and just did the transfer from my FFL today. Easy peasy and I paid way under MSRP. They’re out there in late 2017. Shoot Straight in Apopka, FL has them for $385 and that’s a smokin’ deal. I paid $440 for mine.
I have found pmr 30 for 499.00 i thought it was high. But thank GM for my profit sharing check this friday. Ill own it by 230 pm. Plus i work in the sheet metal stamping division and we run 7 days a week 24hrs a day and when something breaks due to lack of maintenence its catastrophic. This company cannot afford a catastrophic failure. For those who dont know GM stands for General Motors.
Yes, we know you automotive union slugs are overpaid. Thanks for the confirmation.
I have had mine paid off for over a month and the gun shop still does not have any in stock. They keep telling me I will be the first person they call when it comes in. Mine was $499.99.
..oor they could cut the pay and benefits of their board of directors, use that money to expand to meet demand at 70% (they are at 28% currently)
at this point they either:
1. dont have the man power and are not able to get it because CEO pay rises faster than worker hiring
2. like the diamond industry does: they are perfectly capable of fulfilling demand, but withhold it so they can artificially jack up the price
impatiently awaiting the arrival of the new P17…. Please!! Take My Money!! LOL Can’t wait for it to become available
Got a P17 and it broke down after 750 rounds (yes, I clean and lube my guns after every range visit). Barrel crown got all messed up using winchester ammunition despite no malfunctions. 1 week and still nothing from their customer service.
wow the pawn shop has a used prl 16 for 600 They said keltec is focused on space parts … good luck finding one I think you all nee to take the lone i SEE more black people talking about keltec then anyone else GOOD BY GLOCK
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