Or something . . .
Supporters of the Texas and Florida measures argue that these proposals will make students safer by allowing school officials to respond to on-campus shootings. But these measures have been sharply criticized by students, legislators, and policy experts who note that there’s no evidence backing up the benefits of more guns in schools.
Instead, these critics point to significant racial disparities in school discipline to make the case that these measures will create additional anxiety — and risk — for students of color. For many black, Latino, and Native American students, having more people in positions of authority with guns means a lot of things, but safety isn’t necessarily one of them. …
But for students of color, who account for a disproportionately large share of students disciplined in schools, the concern isn’t that armed teachers wouldn’t make a difference — it’s that armed school officials could be more likely to respond to students of color with unnecessary force or threats.
– P.R. Lockhart in Florida’s new law lets teachers carry guns in class. Black and Latino students are worried.
So be it! Just this week in my AO two 14 year olds were arrested for trying to rob, at gunpoint, a 9 year old. Shut ’em down early…it’s the only way to be sure
Hear, hear…
That’s basically what that black State Representative in Al or Ms or wherever said, there’s just some kids that are not wanted, better to kill em now, than to have to kill em later.
Yeah, see the first story re Shitago shooter in training.
What’s the problem?
Well, they do have a point. Schools are already refusing to punish minority students for bad behavior, even when it becomes threatening and violent, on the grounds that not understanding cultural differences—always a fault of the teachers by the way—contribute to student frustrations and anger. If teachers are at fault for “triggering” violent student outbursts, then it only stands to reason that arming teachers will only result in minority students being shot and possibly killed.
The administrators won’t do anything? No adult workplace would tolerate behavior like this. Can you imagine a co-worker punching you? Throwing food into your cubicle? Spitting on you? Why do good kids have to live thru this hell?
This is what progressive education has done to our education system. When politicians take over the teaching process, it quickly becomes unthinkable for anyone to fail. The result is that our schools are filled with thugs who, in earlier times, would have been kicked out of school for behavior that has now become a routine part of the day in most classrooms. Schools are a disaster area.
not if trained appropriately. Look the law passed in Florida is not for the entire state, but for those communities that want to arm teachers for the safety of school children. First the school system of that district has to agree, #2, a teacher has to want to carry a gun for safety and follow all the training and requirements set forth( Those that do not want to won’t.), 3rd, 10 million dollars has been set aside in Florida for training, and teaching. This is one possibility to help protect the children, not kill them. Humm, when was the last time you heard a teacher took a gun to school to kill minority students? Calling school zones “No Gun Zones”, just tells the insane killer where to go to kill without resistance or danger to the killer. I think this is a great idea, but it goes against those who think guns are the problem, when they are not. Pass all your laws, the criminal will not obey them. Common sense is important here, lacking in those that want to ban all guns.
Nice…They just called all teachers….Racists!
Teachers are usually liberals, liberals are largely racists. The author isn’t wrong.
What was stopping the teachers from bringing a gun to school to use “excessive” force before these bills?……Oh wait, a piece of paper that said “gun free zone”.
So teachers will shoot all the black kids, got it. Also there is evidence backing up the idea that gun free zones don’t work.
Vox. ‘Nuf said.
Yep. A website run by the original juicebox children of the media.
Maybe if those ‘students of color’ had daddies in the home instead of vacationing at Club Penitentiary they’d be better behaved and wouldn’t need to be disciplined more than the colorless students.
Also, who the hell is P R Lockhart and why should I care about his speculations? And why does he think that shooting students would become a disciplinary action?
If you don’t want to be “targeted”, don’t be a thug or a douchebag.
I miss the 80’s and 90’s when race wasn’t an issue with anyone anywhere. Obama gets elected and suddenly the world is thrust back to Jim Crow and everyone is lynching each other. Wasn’t the opposite supposed to happen?
Theoretically yes but Obama’s “post racial” activities were designed to ferment distrust and unity for political gain of the democrat party.
Huh? I was in high school in the early 70’s and race was an issue. A big issue.
I’m not entirely sure, but I think the early 70s were not a part of the 80s and 90s. I might need a fact-check on that, though.
Yes it was an issue. It’s always been an issue. More and more black demands being met and not one damn inch of progress. Actually, there is some progress, but not enough to make a big difference in violent crime rates.
Blacks always have an issue. I say send them back to Africa where they can enjoy the peace, prosperity and safety of living amidst the glories of black run nations, without the fear of prejudice. I lived in Africa-its a shit hole.
Yes! Amazing you actually remember that. We have gone backwards thanks to Obama.
Race wasn’t an issue in the 80s and 90s? We’ll have to agree to disagree.
Having grown up in Detroit’s shadow during that time period, I’m going to have to protest that race was very much an issue.
Race has been, and always will be an issue with the majority of black citizens. In truth, blacks are among the most racist Americans. And your point is?
So stupid. Just. Ugh.
Maybe they won’t act a fool or attack/threaten the (usually small, female) teacher if they know she could fucking end them if they push her hard enough.
It’s not like “minority students with discipline problems” understand anything but force already.
It isn’t just small or female teaches. I had a new teacher tell me that he had been directly threatened by a parent while at the school.
He asked me what he should do and I borrowed a page from the handbook and told him that he was required to inform the district police. The district has three sworn police officers.
He did what I suggested and we found out that the problem parent was actually forbidden from being on any school campus due to other issues.
Apparently, this particular parent later saw my new teacher at a market. The parent immediately began moving toward the teacher (remember, we are now in the parking lot at a grocery). The teacher did the right thing, as he was still near his car and hadn’t closed the door yet. He got back in his car and drove away. Again, I sent him back to the district PD.
Apparently, that was a probation/parole violation and the student (age 14) is now convinced that the teachers sent his father to jail, but for us, the problem is solved.
I do want to add that I am glad that this hasn’t turned into another thread filled with insulting teachers. Yes, some are not suited to carry a firearm; but they have “self-selected” to not be firearms owners, as is their right. However, we also have former-LEO and military offices as teachers, along with teachers who shoot competitively.
In all, most that I work with are good in their field, and good teachers. Many, like me, have gotten tired of the business and lay-off cycle and have knowingly traded less pay for a greater bit of security. My kids are out of college and I have purchased a smaller house with a lot less worry. I am far from unique, we have so many MBAs’ in our district that we have an informal MBA club that, and others use as a social and support network. The Seemingly small connection, the MBA contains a lot of other social commonalities.
Yes, I have had teachers ask me to take them to the range and show them how to shoot (including the teacher in the post above this). Enough so that I am putting a lot of thought into taking part of a summer to become certifired as a trainer.
Dear Vox: shut the fuck up.
TTAG needs a like button in the comment section.
👆 Yes they do.
Exactly! Lack of like can be frustrating here!!!!!
Agreed. I certainly believe a “like” button could be useful not just for us (the Great Unwashed Heathens of The Gun) but, if set up properly, could be used by TTAG as a way to ‘feel out’ the reader base and track some metrics on what we agree with/disagree with. Just a thought.
Shorter Vox: Teens, or anyone else, who choose to be worthless assh*les in schools shouldn’t have to worry about their actions having serious, long-term consequences.
Has anyone found one single instance of this actually happening in any of the places that have allowed teachers and/or other people with a license or permit to carry in schools?
People have been carrying in schools for years in some places. I’m sure if this was an issue in any of those places these rabid truth seekers at vox would have ferreted it out by now.
No. The same arguments were made against concealed carry.
and against arming ships’ crews against Somali pirates
Fl has been placing well trained armed civilians in schools since the beginning of this school year without incident and without anyone walking in to a school and killing a bunch of kids…
When they have no reasonable answer they default to race.
If we had an epidemic of teachers beating students for disciplinary purposes, or stabbing them with scissors or sharpened pencils, this claim might have some merit. Of course, we have nothing of the sort. This is much like the predictions of university professors that students would resort to gunfire during heated classroom debates if they were allowed to carry. Of course, that hasn’t happened, and neither will this.
My thoughts exactly. Teachers are not going to start dispensing discipline with guns. The Idea of having armed teachers is to protect the students from a mass shooter.
“…who note that there’s no evidence backing up the benefits of more guns in schools.”
Uhhh….because it hasn’t been tried yet?
Oh I dunno about that. For two hundred years up until the gun free school zones act we had guns in schools for various reasons including school-sponsored shooting teams and because kids and teachers went to school after hunting and cuz we just kept them in racks in our truck windows and etc etc etc. The whole school shooting thing only ramped up after schools became helpless victim zones and the media made a bargain with shooters that if they killed enough kids they would air their manifesto and coolest photos and talk about them in the news for a week and they’d be celebrities and their grievances would finally be heard. Paying for celebrity status with blood is a lot easier than buying that kind of air time with money.
“Vox: Letting Teachers Carry Guns Means More Minority Students Will Be Shot”
Or something is right…
You have to be a drop out !!!
I believe the OP was agreeing with the opening sentence which specifically says “..or something” meaning that they agree with the notion that Vox is otherwise full of crap. Just wanted to clarify that.
Yeah, armed sentries with guns has NEVAH!!! been tried anywhere at any time! Just everywhere there are things we value! Henry Ford was right. Thinking is hard work. That’s why most people don’t do it. On a related note, if you have children or grandchildren in the public indoctrination system I would highly recommend that you do everything in your power and beyond to free them from it! You can do it! Home schooling is best followed by a Christian private school. At home school, everyone who is qualified can be armed! I haven’t heard of any shootings at either.
Except if you are not Christian and don’t want your kids indoctrinated in Christianity.
There are private secular schools… ya gotta pay through the nose but many of them are not liberal mind wipe loci.
Utah teachers can carry in school… no blood in the hallways here.
‘Indoctrinated’ is way too strong a term. ‘Presented’ is the word you were looking for.
I can see that. How about inundated? Not on purpose but surrounded by it and taught it and talked about daily.
I’m not against organized religion, but I’m hoping to raise my little humans to seek and do good without getting religion involved. God is great, and I believe there is a divine creator, but the religions who purport to represent him do him a disservice. I think if we all just followed the golden rule the rest would automatically fall into place.
Yeah, I overheard a bunch of local teachers whispering among themselves as they stocked up on “SCHOOL SUPPLIES”, that’s what they were calling the various types of ammo they were piling in their carts… All I could hear over the giggles and the tee-hees was “I can’t wait til Fall, I want to start carrying right now, damn if those little brats will give me any more crap when I walk in that room and slam my 1911 down on that desk”. ” just want to soot something and I hope it’s one of THEM”….. Yeah looks like they got it right, teachers have been hanging on to hope against hope that someday they would get the opportunity to strap up and walk into that classroom and demand respect or else. Now does anyone with a shred of common sense actually believe that a teacher is going to threaten a student with a gun? Why? So they can spend the next 10 years to life in prison? There are teachers out there that definitely do not need to be around children, but most of them are anti-gun liberal child molesters who won’t be carrying any way…
What many of the students, and other people opposed to allowing teachers to be armed is that, like the military, a classroom is not a “democracy”. The military exists to protect and defend the Constitution, it does not live by it. A classroom exists to to impart learning, not to vote on what is taught. Both are autocracies for good reasons.
So sad , too bad, do what you’re told by authorities & everything would be fine,,, act like a thug , then die like a thug, just cause your a certain color doesn’t mean you get a break if you’re a punk, kids are like puppies, there cute when their young, but some grow up to be ass wipes…
Maybe they commit more crimes?
I seriously doubt that and these dinks think there is some other way to truly stop a bad guy with a gun they must know Merlin and Gandolf both. One rule that should be in place for any armed person in a school, teacher or some kind of law enforcement, is no guns come unless gunfire is heard or a gun is seen. That is sort of a general rule of self-defense. Ask when they last heard of an armed place as the recipient of a mass shooting?
more drawn weapons means more knuckleheads acting like jackasses will have weapons pointed at them.
if there is a disparity the problem lies elseplace.
If the majority of disciplinary problems are caused by minority students, then yes, it stands to reason that the odds of a minority student getting shot could be greater than what is considered reasonable. So, perhaps the underlying problem is the families of these minorities not taking care of the issue at home. Therefore, the libtards must raise the taxes of the average working individual so that more money can be “given” to these poor lost souls. Now I get it.
Who cares what vox thinks. They have like 5 readers and dropping. Best thing that happened to them all day was TTAG mentioning them so they can get clicks.
This should not be a “all teachers” versus “no teachers” issue.
As a retired school administrator, I KNOW that some teachers can be trusted with firearms to improve campus safety and security (after appropriate training, perhaps even as deputies) and I KNOW that some other teachers cannot be trusted with anything more dangerous than Velcro-closure shoes.
Vox is a leftist rag for socialists who believe Lenin was one of the Beatles. Not sure why anyone would want to essentially repost their poop.
Amen
And Karl performed with Zippo, Harpo, and Groucho.
A culture of fear rather than a culture of strength.
Quote: “But for students of color, who account for a disproportionately large share of students disciplined in schools, the concern isn’t that armed teachers wouldn’t make a difference — it’s that armed school officials could be more likely to respond to students of color with unnecessary force or threats.” Every study done has shown that schools with armed staff have never had a student shot between the hours of 6am to midnight. And by the way, never a mass shooting as those schools either.
It’s amazing how little trust or respect the leftists have for teachers, suggesting teachers would be a danger to their own students.
Why would the teachers or administrators publish/broadcast which teachers are licensed to carry? If ask by students, the response should be, “not your business/concern”. If a bad guy appeared, some student(s) may yell out shoot ’em Mr Jones and that ain’t good. Relative to a carry permit there is no reason for others to know who has or does not have a permit and is armed.
Even Vox stated, “But for students of color, who account for a disproportionately large share of students disciplined in schools”. Seems that Vox and others should be more concerned with WHY is there a disproportion LARGE share of students of color disciplined in schools!
Back in the day(late 60’s-early 70’s) we had race riots 3 out 4 years. Everyone was punished who participated. My youngest graduated HS some 6 years ago. The punishment was still somewhat severe( I saw a young dindu get his azz royally kicked). They also had armed guard’s roaming the halls. This is south of Chiraq. What’s happened since? Dunno’ but I assume some B. Hussain Odumbo BS has rubbed off…HOME SCHOOL.
So a teacher dispensing knowledge of English, math, baking, history or economics isn’t a racist engaged in “racesplaining” and trying to supplant the PoC’s culture, but a teacher with a gun suddenly turns into an outright racist out to murder students who are not white…
Yet the article notes “…who note that there’s no evidence backing up the benefits of more guns in schools.”.
OK. I’ll play *throws $5 on the table*.
Where’s the evidence that guns make people racist or that the teachers, administration and staff are themselves murderously racist? Show me the black student who’s been taken out and lynched for breaking a school rule. Wait, you have no evidence? Ah, so at absolute best, being as generous as I can, all I can say is that your counter-argument is at least as much bullshit as the original argument since you have zero evidence of your position but demand such evidence of the other side.
Nice Appeal to Ignorance there, asshats. Fuck you, where’s my $20 Vox/experts/students/legislators?
I’m betting with your side and I’ll raise the anti to $100!
Raise the ante to whatever you like because you’re going to win…
“…who note that there’s no evidence backing up the benefits of more guns in schools.” is a bullshit statement.
Now, granted, what I’m about to present is not an apples to apples comparison but that doesn’t mean it’s useless and it puts the lie to the above statement.
Israel has a fair number of Arab citizens (they’re even allowed to vote!). Those Arabs have children go to public schools and public schools all across Israel. Specifically in Israel’s West Bank there are schools that are protected by… teachers and staff with guns. That’s some oddball exception within Israel but it does exist. Outside that area classes are protected by armed police or military who are assigned to the job.
So, while not exactly common, Israel DOES have teachers and staff who are backed up by police and IDF response. Therefore, there is evidence to support the idea that there’s a benefit to “more guns in school”. That evidence is up for debate obviously in terms of what it means and what we can learn, but the fact that any of it exists from anywhere on the planet means that Vox is wrong because the basis for this argument is incorrect. We can also look at this and say that Israeli teachers do not become outright racists in the presence of a gun because if they did, the Arab children who are “PoC” by definition would be murdered by their teachers at some rate significantly higher than the white Jewish children and we can presuppose that this would happen where 1) teachers have access to firearms and 2) in the area where teachers do have access to guns because that area is one of higher tension. Yet it doesn’t occur.
So, there is some evidence to support this notion. It’s not much and it’s not apples to apples because Israel also employs a number of other security measures at their schools, such as using fencing and bollards to create a stand-off distance (presumably against VBIED’s as well as shooters) and armed, specialized, security who maintain security so that teachers can teach. Israel also has radically different gun laws than the United States, no real hunting culture (hence not very many people own a bunch of guns that kids could get their hands on while granddad is busy) and near universal military service to boot. Then there’s a the cultural differences and how those extend to media etc.
But Israel does have school shootings and when they happen the response there is different than in the United States (from Israel Today): “In 2008 an Arab terrorist opened fire in a Yeshiva (school for religious boys) killing eight young men. An off-duty IDF officer grabbed his gun, just as he was putting his kids to bed. He ran out of the house and into the Yeshiva, where he hunted down the terrorist, shooting him before a security guard also put two bullets in his head.” That sounds a bit like a certain church shooting we had in the State of Texas, doesn’t it?
Again, we can debate what all of this means, but we cannot allow the statement that “there is no evidence” because there plainly is evidence. The question is what that evidence means, if anything, and if it’s applicable to America as well as if what’s done there can be replicated here with any success, what a cost/benefit analysis would show etc etc.
We can also show that in the United States there are some states that allow CCW at the University level (I am not sure how this works with public K-12 so I won’t make a statement on that). Now, I know of nothing that suggests that a Professor is somehow more stable in relation to race and firearms than a K-12 teacher, but perhaps that’s something we should look at. Again, not apples to apples but there’s no rash of white professors carrying guns in Utah or Colorado (or the other states that allow campus carry) and blasting on Black or Hispanic students who complain about grades or something.
However, because I’m not an asshole (OK, I am but the rest of this sentence is true) and I don’t work at Vox I’ll say that there is a difference between a bachelor’s holding teacher and a PhD professor, as well as differences between college and K-12 student populations. So maybe we should study those things to find out why these college professors are not shooting their students but people worry that K-12 teachers would. Perhaps there is some grounding for that fear that we don’t yet have evidence for and should examine things to see if such evidence exists.
All in all, to allow the statement “there is no evidence” when there is evidence is to allow the antis to close off debate with an Appeal to Ignorance, and in the larger scheme of life would negate the purpose of all scientific inquiry for which there is not yet evidence. Which, really is hilarious coming from the folks who are likely to be card-carrying members of the “Party of Science”. That’s what they’re trying to do here.
Quote: “Now, I know of nothing that suggests that a Professor is somehow more stable in relation to race and firearms than a K-12 teacher, but perhaps that’s something we should look at. Again, not apples to apples but there’s no rash of white professors carrying guns in Utah or Colorado (or the other states that allow campus carry) and blasting on Black or Hispanic students who complain about grades or something. ”
When legislatures have passed concealed carry laws for universities most professors and administrations adamantly object to the law because, “students with guns will make classrooms unsafe” or some such words. It is a variation of “blood in the streets” argument. I don’t know of any instance where a concealed carry student has caused a problem on campus.
Most professors are left wing adherents who probably would not touch a gun; they do all their damage with their mouth indoctrinating students with socialism.
If a segment of the population is committing the majority of the crimes, it follows that segment will be shot at more often.
Our local schools have done nothing, I repeat, nothing to harden their campus against walk-in shooters.
It is my firm belief that if a school district does not take steps to harden their facilities, they are really interested in using our children as political pawns in a cruel anti-firearm agenda.
Taking the means of protection away from good guys and gals only aids and abets the bad guys’ in their attempts to create evil.
It would appear that vox just made the case either for ending public education, or school choice.
If there kids are in danger because of their race, then what does that say about the kind of teaching they are receiving in the first place?
‘Nothing wrong with shooting people as long as the right people get shot’ – Clint Eastwood as ‘Dirty Harry’ Callahan. ‘Nuff said.
Well in Israel, this is certainly true. Armed Israeli teachers shoot “minority” Palestinians. Because they’re the ones trying to hurt their students.
The only aggregate trends I can find in school shooters have little to do with race, and much more to do with aberrant behavior.
Well heck since I am certain that VOX is correct (as they certainly would never print falsehoods) then we should arm all the students to protect themselves from the assaulting, armed teachers.
All these protesters and whining Liberals will sing a different tune when an armed teacher caps a criminal shooter before he or she can kill a lot of kids.
more “minority” kids will be shot REGARDLESS. Mostly by other “minority” kids.
“…who note that there’s no evidence backing up the benefits of more guns in schools.”
We will never know what might have happened in that Parkland School that day if Coach Feis had been armed.
We do know, however, exactly what happened because he was disarmed.
Also…. We don’t prove the positive benefit of removing a law. It is up to you to prove the positive benefit of keeping the law.
Perhaps they should stop committing more than half the crimes.
Teachers are being attacked by students in school all the time, but teachers are not allowed to physically engage or restrain aggressive students, that’s the job of the school resource office, or campus monitors. So all the loose talk about armed teachers being another challenge for children of color is totally off the mark. Armed teachers do not have peace officer status, they are the last line of resistance to protect their students, from dangerous external threats, not internal threatening situations, that may occur in school. They are not first responders, police, or armed school security officers, they are the last line of defence when school safety procedures have been breached.
Only if they need shootin’!
I have a huge problem with the words “But for students of color, who account for a disproportionately large share of students disciplined in schools”. Who says it’s a disproportionate share. Herein lays the problem Again! It’s not disproportionate, it is what it is. Troublemakers, bullies, brats and delinquents represent exactly the percentage that they do – not because of racism but because they are tending towards being sub-humans… too many generations inbreeding in the inner cities and choosing shit ass criminals and drug dealers as role models…
I say we go into orbit and nuke the whole neighborhood… it’s the only way to be sure.
Seriously? So teachers will selectively shoot minority students? Just because? What students cause the most problems in schools? See your mind went THERE. Get rid of the problem students no matter whom they are. No problem students, no shooting. If there is a shooting and a student didn’t cause the problems then the person shot better be an outsider, if not then better background checks need to be done for teachers.
We have (3) teacher’s in our family, all of them have been shooting Firearms for a long time. I don’t by this stuff of Color. making any difference, so far most of the shooter’s are white male. The collage kid a couple weeks ago was 1/2 white and Black. I don’t by this crap of people of color are afraid of firearms, I shoot all the time and see all type’s of people shooting. THIS is not a race thing, it a mental health problem !!! I find it very strange that we tell every body that you can’t have firearms at school, kind of like saying money is at the bank with any security !!!! THE FIREARM BAN, is a open sign to shoot and kill our Children John
Well, if we see a continuation of these idiots climbing on desks and getting into fist fights with the teacher, then practically beating the teacher into unconsciousness with more hyenas helping the original dim bulb, maybe the teacher needs to defend him or herself with deadly force. We can’t solve 50 years of liberal big city stupid decisions and liberal family destroying policy like welfare. But on the delivery end of education we have to allow the teachers to not be victims.
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