“A shoving match in a bathroom at a Confederation of Clubs meeting in Waco, Texas exploded into a war,” agingrebel.com observes. “Nine people were killed, 27 people were injured, 17 were hospitalized, two are listed in critical condition, and 170 men were arrested following a brawl at a chain restaurant in a shopping center on the South Jack Kultgen Espressway.” Those are the facts. As our Quote of the Day pointed out, the anti-gunners were all over this one; claiming that gun control could have prevented the violence. As if. More than that, what did cause the death and destruction? Here’s another interesting set of facts . . .
When the restaurant refused to ban the Confederation of Clubs, police stationed at least 22 cops including ten Swat officers from the Waco P.D. and the Texas Department of Public Safety in the parking lot outside the restaurant. They did not station either uniformed or plain clothes officers in the restaurant.
The shove in the bathroom became a scuffle in the restaurant. When about 30 Bandidos, Cossacks, Scimitars and other bikers spilled into the parking between the Twin peaks and the Don Carlos Mexican restaurant next door, the police were waiting for them. The scuffle became a knife fight and several men were stabbed. When one of the combatants produced a gun the Swat team opened fire with automatic weapons. Multiple sources have told The Aging Rebel that all of the dead were killed by police.
Swanton said the fusillade “saved lives in keeping this from spilling into a very busy Sunday morning. Thank goodness the officers were here and took the action that they needed to take to save numerous lives.”
Huh. So that explains all that media buzz yesterday about biker gangs coming to Waco to attack cops. And the hundreds of local, state and federal cops swarming the scene and protecting the lock-up. Check this from dallasnews.com:
Waco police issued a bulletin at 10:13 Sunday night that announced: “Our agency has recieved (sic) information that the Cosaks (sic) and Banditos (sic) have issued an order to kill anyone in uniform.”
Wait. Another Waco police massacre? What are the odds? Even if true, the public will have less sympathy for the victims than they did for the Branch Davidians. A lot less. [h/t DrVino]
Wait: what?
And, yes: the words coming out of the mouths of police on-scene do not match the words of police written down in their affidavits. That doesn’t imply a conspiracy, but the differences are not merely matters of in-the-heat-of-the-moment fluidity of facts. Something doesn’t smell right.
First things first: let’s get all the facts straight. Then we can figure out what they mean.
This is TTAG. Didn’t u get the memo? It is always the cops fault, not the two violent biker gangs.
That is sheer bull-tweet. Search the archives. Cops done good (Colorado Arapahoe school shooting for instance), cops done bad (Chris Dorner manhunt with innocent civilians being shot) and it is reported either way. Yeah, and TTAG has a narrative that gun owners deserve hate, you know, because of a few idiot gun owners and their negligent discharges.
Like others have said, your full of it. I will be the first one to blame the police, as I do not trust them. However I have heard and read different versions of this incident. Let things get out a bit more. But I must agree if the account of swat going full auto over a pistil is correct, the police WAY over reacted. Maybe the brotherhood is trying to make up for doing nothing when ISIS attacked earlier this month with AK knock offs?
Since TTAG is so into cop articles I’m quite surprised that I have yet to see the story about how Obama banned the military program that sold military equipment to police departments. It bans everything from armored vics to machine guns and grenade launchers. I hate Obama, but it’s quite of an amazing order. It’s all over the liberal and conservative media but why its not here on TTAG just boggles my mind.
That order was because more and more police chiefs are coming out against govt control and Obama’s gun stance. It’s to limit the resistance if marshal law is ever declared.
>police chiefs
>coming out against govt control
Bwahahahahahahahaha
Obama massively increased Byrne grants, at this rate the cops can buy their own tanks and grenade launchers.
The only thing amazing about the President’s order is that no one seems to have read it. It bans the transfer of guns larger than or equal to 50 caliber, which are generally not used by police. It bans the use of armed aircraft and drones, which have not been transferred. It bans the transfer of grenade launchers — this one might impact a few agencies, but my Havoc is at least as good as an M79, and is cheaper and not a destructive device. The transfer of TRACKED armored vehicles (M113, most likely) is now prohibited, but MRAPS are still available, and are actually more versatile. So the only major thing this order is going to do is limit the amount of camouflage clothing distributed to police? Yep, I’d say that it’s pretty amazing that the press has jumped all over this like it was going to make a difference.
Samuel Helm, I was beginning to think I was the only one that actually read that EO.
+1. Trying to parse the truth from news reports is a fools game.
I knew there must of been quite a few rifles involved just from the body count. Why would the cops *not* shoot first and ask questions later.
I speculated about this. Motorcycle gangs are notoriously bad shots. Shootouts between them usually result in a lot of shots fired and few hits. The police, though, were likely armed with AR type rifles with optics. In spite of what many say, the .223/5.56×45 is very likely to cause death with a torso hit.
I’m not sure how opening fire into what was essentially a bar brawl can be counted as “saving lives.” Hopefully all the undercover cops and informants who were no doubt involved managed to stay out of the cops’ firing lanes and were able to go home to their families.
We had to kill them to save them.
it’s a witness thing , you understand.
Actually, the bikers I know are pretty good shots. You may be thinking of the Bloods and Crips kinds of gangs. Granted my friends are ONLY Hells Angels, sooo…
The Hells A and Mongols didn’t do so well in their shoot out in Reno a few years back.
Dude you must not know any of the riders I do one was on the pistol team in the army, two others I know shoot weekly we don’t even want to talk about the one that a gunsmith specializing on long range tactical weapons and live way out in the country on a hill LOL
I wonder how this is going to play out. I’ve never seen a police public information briefing where the first thing done was to lay blame on a business owner. Typically it’s just “Here’s what happened, an investigation is under way, please stay clear of the area and let police do their jobs.”
But in this case, Waco PD’s initial statements came off as highly defensive, almost as if they were trying to deflect attention away from their own actions.
This all happened about 5 miles from my house.
I wouldn’t want the Banditos as enemies, this will get worse.
It will get worse for the Banditos if they want to escalate the situation.
BlueBronco, you’ve got THAT right.
If they were your neighbors, it could get much worse. What would you do, lay down? These people live on other’s fear.
I talked to a former officer who said that in this sort of situation, it was SOP to have a video team that recorded the whole scene, so as to gather wonderful intelligence and evidence. And that was several years ago when video was more expensive.
Hard to believe there is no video of this. If not, it kinda sticks out like the dog that did not bark in the night.
+1
Monitoring for updates…
I saw something yesterday chiding the owner of the restaurant, named Patel, for ignoring police requests that he ban the clubs/gangs from meeting in his establishment. I believe this was in the Daily Mail, the police were essentially blaming the owner of the restaurant.
I would not be surprised if there were some paranoid lawmen waiting for anything untoward to take place. The question is not really whether they were paranoid, since that has been established, but whether their paranoia saved lives or cost lives.
Ultimately society doesn’t care about the guys who join these groups, right or wrong that is your take. Outlaw bikers or not, I doubt nine people deserved to die that day. Who shot them and why?
Well, one of the easiest ways to die in this country is to make a police officer nervous. Remember, the ONLY reason they carry guns is to protect themselves, they are not obligated to protect anyone or anything else. They actually petitioned the Supreme Court to be absolved from any duty or responsibility to actually protect anyone…………..and won.
“Well, one of the easiest ways to die in this country is to make a police officer nervous. ”
Hey MORON, why don’t you walk thru baltimore or detroit or bed stuy flashing some green and see how long you last.
These outfits have been killing each other for decades. The Hells A. and Mongols is one example.
Oh, I thought you meant Cops and bikers for a minute there –
I wonder if we will ever know how many of the dead were unarmed.
And it’s been raining on that massive crime twice since the shooting. Cops are still out there collecting evidence.
This sounds like the right question. Consider two extreme possibilities:
– None of them were armed. Perhaps others who survived were armed and drew their guns after the first biker drew his gun. The cops shot at everyone who drew a gun but, tragically, only shot bystanders who were either unarmed or hadn’t yet drawn.
– All of them were armed and had their guns drawn. While we will never know this for sure, perhaps they all drew based on a reasonable man’s apprehension of danger.
It’s more likely that some, but not all, were armed and drew their weapons just before being shot by police or other bikers.
It’s really hard to summarily dismiss the suspicion that the cops’ action might have made a bad situation worse than it might have been had the police held their fire.
The best imaginable scenario might have been that many bikers drew their weapons but all held their fire until an agreement were reached that each gang would retire. The worst scenario might have been that even more bikers would have been killed or wounded by other bikers had the police held their fire.
What outcome would have been worse? For the excess deaths and woundings to have come from lawless behavior by civilians (bikers)? Or, for all the actual deaths and woundings to have come from the police?
I don’t intend to pre-judge this particular situation; nor to necessarily question the rationale of qualified immunity. Instead, I propose that we use this incident as a rather severe case where police fire might – in some cases – do more harm than good. These bikers are not poster-children.
However, the good Samaritan CWP holder in a 7-11 who shoots a robber IS a poster-child. If the police shoot the last armed-man standing as soon as they arrive, are they – probably – doing more harm than good? Arguably, the last armed-man standing might be either a white-hat/black-hat; it’s a 50/50 proposition. If a black-hat he might shoot the clerk or another customer; and that would be a bad outcome; yet, clearly, even if the armed-man did shoot the clerk/customer, he is doing so as a private-sector criminal. If the police shoot the armed-man good Samaritan, it’s a tragedy by a public-sector criminal who will probably enjoy qualified immunity. Which is worse?
Assuming that some / most of the armed Bikers were not legally in possession of their weapons, should those Bikers have been allowed to “retire”?
We often complain that the cops should try enforcing existing gun laws (especially those banning felons from having guns) rather than passing new ones.
If you follow my (somewhat twisted) logic, here’s a wrinkle to consider.
Per report, there were 10 SWAT on the scene. It is generally accepted that these guys, give a little time to set up, are crack shots. Since they had time, they would have been in elevated positions, with a clear view of the entire parking lot.
10 SWAT, 9 dead.
Did the SWAT team have orders to kill specific bikers? They certainly would have been in the best position to do so.
I also noticed that many of the patches in the pictures look REALLY new, like the PH’s hadn’t had them very long. A motivated mole could make it from hangaround thru prospect in under 2 years. We know the LEO’s have been trying to infiltrate the MC’s. Maybe the instigators were UC LEO’s, essentially setting up the gangs for the SWAT intervention.
I know, conspiracy theory, but not remotely impossible.
Blaming Patel, blaming Geller, this is the way things are now. Blame the victims. Blame people for daring to exercise their rights.
Patel wasn’t a victim. He was naive at best.
Naivete is now a criminal offense? He had property destroyed, he had his place shot up. Seems like a victim. When a bunch of gang members come into your restaurant and commit multiple felonies, and the cops shoot the place up, you’re a victim.
I didn’t say that. Pay attention. You think this guy was playing host to Cussacks and Banditos etc. on a weekly basis and didn’t have a clue what was going on?
IF the police broke any laws, they should be prosecuted. The law is the law you know. I am not positing that all or even most cops are bad (I don’t think that they are), only that the law be applied evenly.
They have pre-emptively charged all 170 with “organized crime in relation to…murder,” as the FOX ticker puts it…
Kill anyone in uniform?
Weren’t the bikers wearing uniform colors/ badges/ leathers, etc?
Its a cut, cooler than a uniform, and with better airflow 🙂
It’s called a turf war and The Police, just like The Banditos and The Cossacks, had to flex their influence. Gangs don’t tolerate competition.
I don’t see any problem. So what if LEO staged themselves in preparation for a brawl (which happened) and took down some criminals? It’s not like society lost good people that day.
When was the last time the cops opened up on a mob of brawling crips and bloods? Why are there no riots? Inquiring minds will want to know.
If the bloods and crips are stupid enough to start it in front of cops I bet they would get a similar response.
So you knew all those involved personally? No….then who are you to make assumptions as to their character?
You can make assumptions about character on anyone that is part of these gangs. They are NOT clubs.
To allow these gangs to assemble in one place and not expect trouble is being either stupid or naive.
So we know you don’t believe in the 1st, 4th, or 5th. Any other part of the Constitution you want to shit on?
1st – Right to PEACEABLY assemble (not a mob with weapons)
4th – Probable cause (look at the mob with weapons, probable enough for me)
5th – Due process ( they are in jail waiting)
These are known criminals not Boy Scouts.
Innocent before proven guilty, etc.
Waco PD plant pls go.
Let me guess, judge dredd is your favorite movie?
If this account proves true, it explains the million dollar bond for each arrest. If they got out and told their version of events, doesn’t bode will for law dogs.
While I write mostly anti cop, I feel bad for the police, cause the those gang members will elevate their game to include hunting police.
Exactly. The statement from the cops, the charges and the ridiculous bond amounts are pretty indicative that the police are trying to suppress what actually happened.
How in the world could anyone expect that a gathering of motorcycle gangs was going to be peaceful? Biker gangs are known as violent hot heads for a reason. It’s hardly surprising that there was a fight and an escalation.
I doubt it would have prevented trouble if the Twin Peaks manager had forbade them from meeting there, because they would have just gone somewhere else. The police treated the incident as an active shooter situation because there were lots of people shooting guns while civilians ran for cover, and it would have been very easy for it to escalate and the bikers to scatter which could have led to a series of running fights all over town putting the public at risk.
As for gun control laws doing any good, that is just plain stupid. Only Liberals are stupid enough to think a “No Guns” policy, or stricter gun laws would have prevented criminals from carrying guns. I would wager that a good number of these guys were felons who couldn’t legally own a gun, but still had one anyway.
Before everyone starts slamming and blaming the police, they should explain to us all how they would have handled it if almost 200 armed and violent men had suddenly poured out of the place fighting, stabbing and eventually shooting at each other. I wouldn’t be surprised if all the fatalities were the result of police gunfire since SWAT trained officers with M4s are better shots and more lethal than an angry biker with a 9mm, but to call it a “police massacre” is stretching things a bit.
If the bikers pulled guns and SWAT engaged those with guns, hey, go SWAT– they’re doing their jobs. If that’s what happened, the police could have said so up front, and everyone would have cheered.
If *a biker* pulled *a gun* and SWAT opened up into the crowd– that would meet the definition of a massacre.
At this point, no one knows either way. But Waco PD’s story keeps changing, and the apparent deception and diversion raises an eyebrow.
Ok, for one thing, these meetings happen all the time and that’s why we don’t see MCs killing each other daily. Another thing, if they were all inherently violent and out to kill police why were so many of them sitting peaceably on the ground while the police investigated? They outnumbered the cops, I’m sure if they really wanted to they could have overpowered them.
they should explain to us all how they would have handled it if almost 200 armed and violent men had suddenly poured out of the place fighting, stabbing and eventually shooting at each other.
I would have handled the situation as evolution in action.
That’s the best comment I’ve seen all day, Tom. 😉
How many times in this blog has there been the discussion about comming upon a scene where you identify two combatants but cannot determine which is the aggressor.
What if one of us got involved in the three stupids and was there.
A Bandito pulls a knife, you, a CCW pull your gun in self defense and fire. Now all the Eotechs have their red dot on you. Tough situation for every one.
So what do you suggest? Keep your weapon holstered and hope a cop saves you?
There’s a longstanding rule. Simple adherence to this rule would have provided complete protection:
The Stupid Rule: Don’t hang out with stupid people, don’t go to stupid places, and don’t do stupid things.
The Cossacks and Bandidos are not your typical weekend suburban riding clubs. If you’re an honest, law-abiding citizen, you wouldn’t be associating with them.
If you are not a member (adhering to rule 1 so far), and you drive up to Twin Peaks that day, anticipating a basket of wings and some beer, and you see the crowd that’s gathered, you turn around and find someplace else to eat that day.
The best way to not have to worry about getting yourself shot by the cops while defending yourself from a knife-wielding attacker that day was through the simple option of not hanging around stupid people in stupid places.
…
On the other hand, if what is said is true and all nine people were killed by cops (some places are reporting four people killed by cops, the other five undetermined), then it’s entirely possible the police presence made things worse. Who knows? It’s pretty hard to gauge the rationality of people who are willing to engage in a mass brawl and and knife fight right in front of a SWAT team. Don’t hang out with that kind of people.
>Don’t hang out with stupid people, don’t go to stupid places, and don’t do stupid things.
Says the guy defending the cops, i.e. the stupidest people who does the stupidest things.
If only people heeded your advice and shunned cops the way people in occupied France shunned Nazis.
“The Stupid Rule: Don’t hang out with stupid people, don’t go to stupid places, and don’t do stupid things.”
You know what? I’m sick of this. I’m sick of it precisely because it, itself, is immensely stupid.
Here’s why:
What gets defined as a stupid place or a stupid thing to do ONLY gets defined as such AFTER THE FACT.
None of us have the ability to predict the future. I could go to the park in my town, get held up in a street robbery, and some dipsh1t on the Internet will say it’s my fault for going to a stupid place.
That park is a “low crime area” and people/families hang out there ALL THE FREAKING TIME.
But, anything can happen…anywhere.
I don’t suppose there’s anyway we can blast this dumb-a$$ meme into oblivion, but I maintain hope that thinking people will stop saying it like it has any meaning whatsoever. It’s too vague to have any real meaning.
Whenever I see a crowd of unsavory (my definition applies) characters crowded into a relatively small space (restaurant, park, business) I first look for a quick way out. Then I watch what develops. If I don’t like the looks fo things, I leave. Don’t even want to be a witness should things go sideways. There are also certain parts of town I avoid at certain parts of the day. Sticking around when things look like they could turn bad quickly, visiting known high crime areas, ignoring surroundings is pretty much stupid people doing stupid things in stupid places. I have enough difficulty properly observing my surroundings in fairly safe places (because “anything can happen”).
” It’s too vague to have any real meaning.”
It’s served me pretty well my whole life. Seems pretty clear in this instance. If you don’t know better than to hang out with the Bandidos and the Cossacks, you need to rethink some things.
“If only people heeded your advice and shunned cops the way people in occupied France shunned Nazis.”
I actually do shun cops. I don’t go to the policeman’s ball, I stay away from other areas where there are large numbers of cops looking to show who’s in charge, and I try to keep police out of my life in every way possible. I don’t answer their questions. I don’t let them on my property without a warrant.
It would be a mistake to think that because I think hanging out in the company of these motorcycle gangs is incredibly stupid that I am some sort of cop supporter.
It’s like watching the various Muslim factions fighting it out with each other in Syria and the Middle East: sometimes they’re all bad guys.
“It’s served me pretty well my whole life. “
Yeah, until it doesn’t. It sounds all nice and cute and like fuzzy bunnies to come up with idiotic platitudes like that until you are doing something YOU did not think was stupid and trouble FINDS YOU.
It’s a dumb idea; I get what the guy that originally said it was trying to say…don’t go looking for trouble. But, it has far transcended that simple idea and now gets applied to just about everyone that is a victim of a street attack.
It has become a way of victim-blaming, and “Stupid” is so ill-defined.
Okay…THIS story happened at a busy shopping area. Suppose I was there…next door for example (which I am given to understand was a restaurant also)…and got caught up in this. Would it be said I was in a stupid place?
Someone would say it, failing to realize that it gets defined as ‘stupid’ ONLY after something happened. To hear some of those spouting off about “Stupid places,” none of us should ever get out of bed in the morning.
Agreed. If I had pulled into the parking lot to eat at that place, I would have seen all the bikes and probably went some other place. If I did not get it, walking into the place full of bikers would have been clue #2 and I would have left.
I think it is way to early to judge at this point, who is responsible. I doubt the cop’s are not totally innocent but my gut says biker gangs = bad way more than cops = bad.
I am sure Internet will provide plenty of conspiracy theories for everyone until we know more. Even then people will believe what they want too.
Excellent logic and well put.
Let’s see, the parking lot is full of bikes and bikers . . . go somewhere else.
Let’s see, there’s a SWAT team deployed right there pointing guns at us . . . don’t do anything stupid.
In fact, it is so accurately logical, that I’m sure there will be some trolls on TTAG who will argue with you over it.
+1. Lighten up JR…its just common sense, not some kind of special operator oporder operating operational rule thingy.
That’s why they are called the three stupids. Even if you were already at the restaurant when 200 hardcore bikers showed up if you didn’t head for the nearest exit at your first opportunity, preferably through the kitchen, that’s just stupid.
So basically run…..and if something happens you deserve it…got it. Geez
nope. prudence, prudence.
first rule of a gunfight is “don’t be there”.
Thanks, Christopher; see my comment above on this asinine “stupid” rule.
To this comment: “nope. prudence, prudence.
first rule of a gunfight is “don’t be there”.
“
Well, golly gee…I guess MY crystal ball does not work as well as yours does. I can’t even say with 100% certainty if it’s going to rain tomorrow, never mind something as life threatening as getting into a gunfight.
Keep thinking you have this level of control over things you have precisely ZERO control over…life and reality have a way of biting hubris in the butt in a major way.
Nobody is trying to say that this will always prevent you from being in the wrong place at the wrong time. You’re setting up a ridiculous straw man.
But if you don’t know the difference between a crack house at midnight and a church on Sunday morning, you really need to sit down and have a good long think.
That doesn’t mean no one ever shoots up churches, but if you need the difference explained to you, guess what? You’re one of the stupid people that people who listen to this rule shouldn’t be hanging around.
” You’re setting up a ridiculous straw man.”
Not really. People say that “stupid places” thing all the time when people are victimized…just for choosing to live their lives.
In other words…what gets called a “stupid place” is subjectively and retroactively defined AFTER the crime occurs.
There’s no straw man. This accusation happens routinely.
“You’re one of the stupid people that people who listen to this rule shouldn’t be hanging around.”
Right. I’m stupid because I’m realistic enough to recognize that real life is not reduced to, uh, stupid platitudes.
You know what? I’ll take it as a net gain if people like you choose not to hang around with me. I take the process of threat assessment very seriously, and don’t put my life and those of my family into the hands of cutesy Internet memes like the factually stupid rule.
William Aprill has commented on this as well…people get lulled by their own delusions of what is safe vs unsafe. So, by your logic, you think everywhere you go is “not a stupid place” therefore less risk?
Good luck. That’s all I can say. I think you are putting the burden on threat assessment on the wrong dimension. But hey…go for it. No skin off my nose…I’ll be too busy being stupid for you to worry about me.
You stay and let us know how it goes. It is called being smart. No when to fold them.
Or do you carry a M240 under your shirt with extra magazines? The 240 might shrink those 200 to 1 odds.
Listen, JR, this rule has three — count’em — three components: 1. Stupid places. 2. Stupid people. 3. Stupid things.
The stupid in this particular instance wasn’t the Twin Peaks restaurant. It was being a member of the Bandidos or Cossacks (#2 stupid people). I’m not blaming the soccer dad who walked in for some wings and got caught in the crossfire. He wasn’t one of the ones out brawling in the parking lot. Maaaaybe, he should have looked around the place when he stepped in and known better — maybe he thought it was just a benign motorcycle club, but he probably stayed in his seat or dived under a table or otherwise tried to stay out of trouble when the shooting started — he wasn’t out in the parking lot slugging it out in front of a SWAT team (#3 do stupid things).
Do these things never occur to you? Do you find yourself in trouble a lot?
How can you possibly “take threat assessment very seriously” when you don’t seem to understand that you have to look around yourself sometimes and see, “Whoa, I’m in a bad place?” It’s not like anyone is saying that bad places and good places are all static (though some are). It’s not just a “cutsie” meme, it’s a short cut for important truths about threat assessment: If “Where am I? Who am I with? What am I doing?” aren’t questions you ask yourself, you’re not really assessing.
Listen, JR, this rule has three — count’em — three components: 1. Stupid places. 2. Stupid people. 3. Stupid things.
Add stupid times to the list as well. I used to go to pattern shops that had the first three elements surrounding them, but the thugs were hibernating during the daytime. Night was another matter.
The irony JR, is that you are doing precisely that while doing a threat assessment; avoiding the stupids.
Maybe you object to stupid for some rhetorical reasons. So change that to dangerous and the effect is the same. Avoid dangerous people, doing dangerous things, in dangerous places.
How about threatening? Avoid threatening people, doing threatening things, in threatening places.
The point is the same between all of them, the words are just different. That point is, use your brain to mitigate the chances of being victimized. That is precisely the underlying philosophy and is exactly what you do when you do a threat assessment; you just call it something different.
As far as blaming the victim goes, there are no hard and fast rules in life including everything I wrote above. You can do everything in your power to avoid the stupids, the dangerouses, the threatening, etc but still wind up in a stupid/dangerous/threatening situation through no fault of your own. Its all at work on a case by case basis, that’s why we develop general rules like avoiding the stupids or assessing threats as a starting point to apply to a situation. Its not the end all be all, its where we start and our strategy and response evolves from.
Ruby Ridge. Waco. And now Waco pt. 2. What links Randy Weaver, the Branch Davidians, and the Waco bikers together is that all are marginal people, intentionally living outside the norms of mainstream society. They make easy, albeit often intentional, targets. In each case, law enforcement commanded media attention and produced self-serving propaganda narratives which were later proved to deliberately obscure critical facts.
As soon as Randy Weaver hired Gerry Spence for his lawyer, the government case against him fell apart. Richard “Racehorse” Haynes is in Houston. The biker’s need to hire him.
No, it takes Federal agencies to truly screw things up on a massive scale. FBI, BATF, etc. They are probably mad because they missed all the fun. Don’t worry, they will increase their presence in Waco in hopes of being able to be part of the festivities next time.
It looks like ATF is already involved. The bikers, no dummies, ain’t talkin’.
If it plays out wrong for the cops {unjustified mass murder}, they have put a bounty on their own heads,
I do not condone Murder by anyone! these stupid Law enforcement types have now made happen an alliance of three or more Clubs {The enemy of my enemy is my friend}, until the problem is solved!
Now Waco has its own killers and do not have to rely on the Fed’s, Sounds like shades of WWII! black swat clothes and silver flashing!
Owner of place is under no obligation serving the State wishes to customers without a court order!! Last I heard it is still a free country and PC’ers can go ruin their own lives
So you have hundreds of bikers fighting, stabbing, and producing firearms…and the cops are the bad guys? I love the internet.
” . . .hundreds of bikers fighting, stabbing, and producing firearms . . .”
Yep, this is the internet all right. “Thousands of drunken dope-crazed bikers bent on destruction attack a central Texas city and overwhelm the local police.” How’s that.
@RF, you truly need help brother.
My money is on the fact that most, if not all the kills were from the LEO gangsters.
Charging 170 people with engaging in organized crime linked to capital murder and setting all their bonds at $1million is just ridiculous!
The LEO gangsters will try and sweep this under the rug and silence the “outlaw bikers” because they probably slaughtered 2 or 3 unarmed men caught up in the ruckus in the parking lot.
Yep Upgun LEO getting trigger time on moving targets. I submitt having “assault” armaments contribute the culling.
Conundrum.
On the one hand, we know that all biker gangs are psychotic territorial killers waiting for the opportunity to rape and kill. I know it’s true ’cause I watched an episode of SoA.
On the other hand, we know that cops use any justification to exercise the SWAT dogs, are up-armored and see every problem as a nail and the hammer is force of numbers and brutality. I know because I saw a youtube video of a beatdown for not respecting their authoratay.
Makes it difficult to pick sides.
Reminder: Everything reported on an incident like this within the first week is wrong. Have you forgotten Garland already?
I suspect the prosecution of most of the 170 will fall apart quickly.
Think about it. 170 people arrested in the heated aftermath of a large public area gun battle. Most of the 170 dressed alike. Most of them without weapons (abandoned in the battle). The District Attorney gets to go before the judge and say uh yeah we engaged in a gun battle and arrested everyone in denim in a two block area…like that will be easy to prosecute. Oh sure at some point ballistics and fingerprints will help a little but really?
Like all high profile crimes, powerful legal teams will come in (for money and celebrity) and the county will be overwhelmed. Then the Feds will weigh in – uh yes your Honor we opened fire on the crowd and then arrested everyone in the area. And no our officers can’t identify all of these defendents.
LIke they say, this is not legal advice just some thoughts on the subject. It will be interesting to watch…
Can you say “fishing expedition”?
This scenario is ripe for “Let’s hope one rolls on another and we can work a plea deal. Makes it look like we ‘did something’ and the public will ‘feel safer.’ “
Standard government MO: murder a bunch of people, then slander the victims. It’s not like they didn’t do the same thing before, in the same town no less.
I agree! I mean Vernon Wayne Howell was a just a normal guy who never did anything wrong or harmed anyone. 9/11 was nothing but a government conspiracy and Sandy Hook never happened. Those kids that supposedly died at Sandy Hook were fake, they never existed.
The Internet, giving a voice to all and their crazy arse conspiracy theories.
I hope ISP’s start charging for Internet bandwidth. Maybe then the Internet will be less filled with BS from people that have too much time on their hands.
The children at Waco all spontaneously combusted and Vicki Weaver shot herself in the head with a .308 rifle while holding an infant.
Dem boots, they’re delicious.
According to George Orwell, jack boots kicking in the mouth is delicious.
It seems the internet is a great place for sheep to graze. Carry on bootlicker, carry on…
wait…what ever happened to “one riot, one ranger?”
wonder how baltimore would have turned-out if cops used similar tactics? once upon a time, way back when (1950s) there was a huge flood in fort worth near the downtown area and a good deal of the residential zones. there was looting that the cops couldn’t curtail. national guard was brought in with orders to shoot looters. there was only one looter shot the first night. there was no more looting afterward.
oh how i wish we would bring back the concept of “outlaw”. contrary to hollywood, “outlaw” was not just a notorious lawbreaker/criminal. “outlaw” meant “outside the law”. the effective result was a person so designated could be apprehended without regard to whether lawful means were employed; the bad guy was outside the protections of the law. that was how we once had “wanted dead or alive” posters in the west.
Laws don’t apply to cops, they must also be “outlaws”.
So what happens if the biker who pulled a gun, thereby initiating the police’s automatic weapon fusillade, was licensed in Texas to carry a concealed handgun and who, on being threatened by someone with a knife, pulled his gun is self-defense? Just sayin’.
I was wondering the exact same thing myself…it’s entirely possible.
Doesn’t matter, fix it in the report.
Some people are still waiting for “more evidence” and “forensics.” Really? Still haven’t learned, eh?
Nope. Not possible. If you’re in a gang, you’re automatically guilty. Due process be damned.
You guys are acting like these guys were just weekend middle class bikers like the characters in the movie “Wild Hogs.” It is highly unlikely that any of the gang members involved were legally carrying because most of them are convicted felons.
“It is highly unlikely”
Your “highly unlikely” does not pass the test of the Rules of Evidence in a criminal trial.
Your “highly unlikely” does not even meet the standard of PROBABLE cause (ie, PROBABLY not LIKELY is the standard).
Your “highly unlikely” does not even meet, by itself, the standard of “reasonable suspicion”…additional factors would be needed to be ARTICULATED.
So, basically…Fourth Amendment Fail.
Source: Just about every Fourth Amendment court ruling ever made.
Except this isn’t a Fourth Amendment search case. Nobody was searched. But I must ask you do you think outlaw biker gang members are choirboys? they are no different from ghetto gangbangers
“But I must ask you do you think outlaw biker gang members are choirboys?”
Completely irrelevant. The Bill of Rights does not only apply to choirboys. Liberty does get messy sometimes.
You tried a nice deflections with “this is not a search case.” But, it IS a 4th Amendment issue…not SEARCH but SEIZURE. The original question posed above was about arresting people when the issue of legal carry vs illegal carry has not been clearly stated.
The issue is ALSO about arresting people when the issue of self defense vs being the attacker has not been clearly stated.
Since arrest is a seizure, probable cause MUST exist for arrest. Your assertion that they are “highly unlikely” to be law abiding is irrelevant and fails to meet the standard for arrest.
EVERYONE has the moral right to self defense, and everyone, no matter who they are or what you think of them, has the right to the basic protections enumerated in the Bill of Rights.
A big brawl of 200 with knives, chains, pipes and guns will be considered probably cause most of the time.
Except only 50 weapons were recovered.
So yeah…this wasn’t a full on 200 man free for all with everyone armed. Stop with the hysterics.
It is highly unlikely that any of the gang members involved were legally carrying because most of them are convicted felons. The official statement from the Ministry of Pre-Crime and Thought Crime.
Here is the basic problem: 200+ bikers are at a single location and a brawl breaks out. The police on site honestly have no idea who are attackers and who are defenders. Since they have no idea who are attackers and who are righteous defenders, they have no moral, ethical, or legal basis to start bashing and shooting people.
The only option I can see is for police to start trying to pull people out at the edges and then work their way in and detain everyone long enough to stop the brawl. After the brawl is over, they can question detainees and collect any evidence that immediately and obviously implicates any detainee for criminal activity. If witness testimony and evidence is solid for any arrests, then arrest those people and release the other detainees. Going beyond that is wrong and pure speculation.
This event illustrates how police have an extremely limited ability to uphold public order. The lion’s share of that task is up to the individual … because only the individual knows exactly what is happening to them at any given moment.
You can be the one who leads the way into a brawl between two criminal gangs going at it in the parking lot.
If those 200 biker gang members are duking it out among each other, and innocent bystanders and property are not at risk, why does anyone need to “lead the way into” that brawl? Is there any reason that 22 police officers can’t simply cordon them off and let them burn out on their own? Have guns drawn on them, maybe try to pick them off one at a time to take them into custody and thin out the herd.
I see absolutely nothing good coming from 22 armed police officers attempting to break up a fistfight among 200 rough biker gang members.
22 police officers can’t simply cordon them off and let them burn out on their own? What I would have done if I was the Police Chief; plus I would have issued popcorn and soft drinks to my officers.
@Indiana Tom
That’s what they did in Baltimore, right?
Drive the MRAP over the lines of Idiotbikes. The fight will breakup quickly.
Anyone that spends $10k on a secondrate motorbike (intentional slur) has checked the box for “stupid people”. Congregate with more than 5 similar morons and you checked “stupid place” and “doing stupid things”. If you’re a bystander and can’t figure out that the prudent man needs to NOT be in this “stupid place” then you’re part of the action.
So true!!!!!
The way I see it, the only thing the brothers done wrong is hold the meeting in a public place. They should have held the meeting in a place where the public was not anywhere around. Its the biker world, biker life, and the biker way. The cops was chicken shit to gun down as many brothers that they did.
All they really need in a situation like this is a set of water cannon spraying lube: everything & everyone gets slippery, and it gets hard to fight.
Who wants popcorn? Cheddar or caramel?
Both, my friend. Both. It’s called Chicago Style. 🙂
Mmm. Only at Garrett’s.
Lake Shore sytle at Meijers.
The biker’s costumes are way cooler than the police’s costumes.
-D
Way smellier too.
I am very interested in whether or not there was video surveillance that might show what actually happened when gunfire broke out.
I only peripherally know some people associated with these gangs, and some law enforcement officers that have dealt with them. So many of them already have a record, and do not want to be caught with a firearm on their person. I would guess that the majority were not carrying firearms.
Stay tuned………
Seeing as TABC has pulled that Twin Peaks liquor license and shut them down, you’ve got to think that the ATF and other Fed Agencies are trying to sweep in and round up all surveillance footage.
It’s also interesting to note that no one has posted any cell phone video cam footage of this outbreak. With all the smart phones out there and this many bikers in one location, you would think that someone would have video taped this brawl for shits and giggles.
Video footage will come out and I’m guessing the entire story of Bikers shooting up the place will most likely fall apart and that it will be LEO gangsters firing on unarmed men at worst duking it out with each other.
This. Rounding up the surveillance footage; to make it disappear just like dash cams…
Every place nearby with a camera, canvass them to see if they were asked “Is this the only copy?” “If this video shows up on the internet, we kill you next.”
Maybe there was some video of the incident? At a MALL??? In the parking lot?? Only from at least five angles.
Bikers are bad shots eh? Why do you have the need to classify “bikers” as bad shots….most of them are retired vets …and I guess oh imply the majority of bikers are bad shots …well I find that laughable ,most of the bikers I know can shoot ,just for clarification. Cops over reacted bottom line .
My comment was:
“Motorcycle gangs are notoriously bad shots. Shootouts between them usually result in a lot of shots fired and few hits. The police, though, were likely armed with AR type rifles with optics. In spite of what many say, the .223/5.56×45 is very likely to cause death with a torso hit.”
That was based on three incidents that I have heard of about shootouts among numerous bikers resulting from brawls, at a biker bar. One incident occurred in Yuma, many years ago. Two others were related to me by officers/former officers.
Individual bikers may be great shots, but bikers involved in brawls and mass shootings have a reputation for being quite inaccurate. It is one of the reasons that this incident stands out.
I cannot think of another biker brawl where more than one or two people were killed. Perhaps others will have better memories or remember other incidents.
Sorry Dean, I kinda come off as an ass, but I ride, used to work for Harley,now involved in the Insurance Ind., and i constantly have to show the stark deference between 1%’s and the majority of us(the same can be said of other groups, look at us the gun community)
In regards to the bad shots bikers, can one attest that in any scenario of life and death shots will be misplaced no matter the individual? (except S.O.F, during their six months initial pistol shooting course they go through 400 rounds individually before breakfast lol..seriously) But in all honesty, you know just as well as I, when shtf you hope to god your spot on, but with multiple threats, your senses can be overwhelmed even with immense training.For ex, What were the stats for vietnam,on average how many rounds were spent to kill one vietcong? I guess it was a soft spot on me, because to rationalize some, as all in genre is no good, I have a ton of respect for you and the staff of TTAG, but we should all notion the statement of “United we stand, Divided we fall”
You are, of course correct. Most biker brawls are not built around a serious desire to kill someone, but sort of territorial/status disputes. I suspect that many of the shots are defensive in nature, meant to keep the other guy’s head down, as much of shots fired in Vietnam were.
Again, all of this makes the Waco event stand out even more.
The bikers you are talking about most likely don’t belong to these GANGS. There are plenty of legitimate biker CLUBS, these weren’t them. I know from personal experience what happens when rival GANGS get together.
These GANGS just happen to also ride bikes. No correlation with clubs like the ones Vietnam vets formed or Marines etc..
Seems that in the last few weeks there were incidents that the LEO had prior knowledge of , so they already had SWAT on scene. Just waiting to shoot first and make up answers after. This should help them with Jade Helm. Move into an area and blend in. They’re getting US use to seeing Military clad people running around like they mean business. Don’t worry they are highly trained government agents so they must be here to help.
With police wearing body cams, we don’t have to guess about what happened…All officers involved could be cleared today…just saying.
More info here:
http://www.agingrebel.com/12873
List of the dead plus fatal wounds here : http://www.kwtx.com/news/local/headlines/Waco-Shooting-Near-Twin-Peaks-In-Waco-304043711.html
Most died of head/neck torso shots. Any bets on how may are rifle wounds?
Who cares?
People interested in justice.
If all the dead people are dead due to 5.56 rifle rounds, then the police massacred a lot of people engaged in an otherwise non-fatal brawl.
As far as I know, even Texas law doesn’t allow summary execution for brawling.
@Cloudbuster: There were knifings going on. This wasn’t a sandbox fist fight among kids.
And yet, not a single death by knife wound.
Curious, that.
We don’t know at this point. Plus there are 17 people in the hospital, 2 critical and 7 others additionally wounded. People that get shot don’t always die and some people that get stabbed to. That is why on the average there are 1700 people murdered with knives each year compared to 325 with all types of rifles as per the FBI-UCR. There are 500 murdered with blunt objects as well. So think about that before getting into a knife/chain/pipe brawl.
Well then, allow me to rephrase: at this point, we have 9 dead from gunshot wounds, and zero dead from knife wounds.
A knifing death is required to justify the use of deadly force? Not just a knifing injury or threat? Would a knifing attack justify use of deadly force in a civilian SD episode? Would a knife wound? Only a knifing death?
“And yet, not a single death by knife wound.”
Yep. Curious indeed.
Even Outlaw bikers deserve due process. I have a hard time believing that cops unloading a “fusillade” (their term) into a crowd are making sure that every round is only taking out an imminent threat to life and limb.
I’ve only ever heard the word “fusillade” used in military terms. To hear such a tactic used against civilians in the U.S. is very disturbing. A fusillade is almost by definition indiscriminate. A tactic that’s as likely to claim someone defending himself or guilty of misdemeanor assault as one who’s actively attempting murder (and there had to be a lot of variety in what was going on in that brawl), is counter to everything I was led to believe about legitimate police tactics in the U.S.
It’s like something you hear about the Chinese doing against crowds.
Last time we had a “fusillade” against a rioting bunch of civilians was, what, Kent State? How did that work out?
You don’t know what happened regarding the shooting by the police at this point so you probably should hold off before calling it Kent State. Plus, Cussacks and Banditos aren’t college kids.
@BlueBronco
@Cloudbuster: There were knifings going on. This wasn’t a sandbox fist fight among kids.
So your logic is that police can shoot anybody involved in a fight before ascertaining who was the aggressor or the defender? Gotcha. Brilliant logic.
When “Kill ’em all let god sort ’em out” becomes the motto of LE, the end result is going to be a lot of dead LE.
I never said that. Maybe you should go look again and work on your reading comprehension skills along with your logic. You are making the assumption that the police initiated the lethal encounter. I am not making that assumption one way or the other at this point. It is clear that there was a brawl with at least 5 biker gangs and blood was being spilled by them.
One of the reports has the gangs firing shots and turning on police. Would you wait until a gangster fired at you before firing?
>Would you wait until a gangster fired at you before firing?
By parity of logic, all cops should be preemptively shot for civilian safety.
After all, we just want to go home at night.
Nice side step. I didn’t say a damn thing about pre-emptive. Pay attention. These guys were going at it and then threw down on some of the cops. So if the guy threw down on you, you would let him shoot you and then you would shoot him. Got it.
Except these bikers didn’t “throw down” on the cops, according to the porkers themselves.
Sorry-I’m no fan of the Po-leece but I’m with el mac on this one. I’m even less a fan of violent bikers. Play stupid games…
Curious how you accuse the bikers of being violent when it’s the cops who sprayed rifle fire into a crowd.
Yeah, they were just having a friendly knife each other in the ribs and whack each other over the head with a pipe rumble in the restaurant and parking lot and the police stuck their nose in it.
Yes, let’s save the people in the crowd by indiscriminately firing 5.56 rounds into the mass.
Protect and serve!
Massive shootout at a busy restaurant, in a busy central shopping and dining area, on a nice and sunny weekend morning, with a million witnesses of all kinds all around, and only from here, citing some aging goofball’s site, do we hear of this angle. Uh huh. Right.
I always wondered where Internet rumours and urban legends started.
I love the leftists complaining that since no curfew was announced, and no National Guard brought it, that somehow the bikers are benefiting from white privilege. Sheer bullcorn. Wonder what they’d say if SWAT had dumped lead on, and subsequently arrested ALL of the Baltimore rioters. #methdealingbikerlivesmatter
Then they’d correctly point out that the police are psychopathic murderers.
Mindless animals don’t care about race.
@Sexually Frustratedsoreass, Sharpton much?
Police are the new protected class. 🙂
Oh wait, that isn’t just a joke, it’s actually true: http://popehat.com/2015/04/29/cops-we-need-rights-more-than-you-citizen/
Aren’t those bikers getting a little old for brawling? Every one of them is the wrong side of fifty and 60lbs overweight.
You could say the same for most cops. LE being singled out as the fattest profession in the US according to a recent study.
Yes because this was just a bunch of middle class weekend riders who were just minding their own business when the evil police opened fire on them.
Robert is off the deep end of the cop hating pool on this one. Sons of Anarchy understated how violent these biker gangs are.
SoA is part of the problem here. It’s fictional entertainment, and far removed from reality. Unfortunately, half of the country now thinks they know all about biker culture, especially the “1%er” culture. And they are wrong. The media stories about the bikers are laughable.
Something is off about the whole thing and the reports coming out. It will be interesting to see what finds its way out in the coming weeks.
Where did the local PD get the information about potential trouble? It most certainly wasn’t through their sources inside the gang.
I seem to recall an ATF agent who infiltrated biker gangs and was then hung out to dry by ATF.
Nah, no way, ATF would never be involved in something like this biker shootout. (I have a blue light special on bridges today also)
What would my friend William of Occam have to say about this.
Explanation #1: Two rival violent criminal organizations show up at the same place at the same time and violence ensues.
Explanation #2, Two rival violent criminal organizations show up at the same place at the same time planning on a big kumbaya but the forces of evil government conspire to set up a big police target practice vent aimed at killing peaceful members of two rival violent criminal organizations who showed up at the same place at the same time.
I know which one Sir William would pick but seeing this a TTAG article about the evil cops I know which one gets the majority vote.
#handsupdontshoot!!!!
Occam’s Razor mandates the simplest explanation: cops open fire on a crowd because on their officer safety fanaticism and a sick desire to get a kill on their 1033 rifles, and murder a bunch of people.
Fail.
Let’s see the bootlickers scramble like cockroaches in the light when the truth comes out. 🙂
The only fail here is you.
You’re obviously okay with guilty until proven innocent..because, bad crowd and wrong colors.
You’ve just approved summary execution by government because someone was either in the wrong place at the wrong time or wearing the wrong color clothing.
You refuse to accept anything other than the official explanation. An explanation that was rushed out shortly after the shootings occurred and long before any real investigation could be completed.
Perhaps “Heinlein’s Razor” applies best.
“You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor
Stupidity can’t be villainous ?
I thought it was Feral hogs eradication. too bad only 9 dead.
Whoa Bro, tin foil level 9000
Banditos 1%er OMG (outlaw motorcycle gang) motto: “We are the people your parents warned you about.” I’m just going to go out on a limb here and say the other OMGs are known for criminal activity. Maybe that’s because I’ve never started a knife fight / fist fight / gun fight in front of a SWAT team.
The police should be culpable for every single round fired, but this wasn’t a girl scout gathering.
Sure, you just let the SWAT team do the murdering for you.
Pretty sure 170 guys CONVICTED is a pipe dream….It’s laughable that the Cop interviewed was explaining how dangerous it was for the public,.. yet cops opened up with automatics….all in the name of public safety.
Ah, the good old days like when Elliot Ness and other law men used to hunt down mobsters and notorious criminals any way they could and even ambushed quite a few like Bonnie and Clyde and John Dillinger. It was also reported in the media and I guess I can’t tell you which media outlet(s) reported this but the police requested that the management of the restaurant allow a police presence inside the establishment but the management let them know they were unwelcome inside.
It’s amusing that Elliot Ness, a government gangster who willfully enforced the criminally stupid Prohibition, is now venerated as a “law man”.
If anything that proves how meaningless the “law” was back then, and even more so now.
According to interviews on KUT here in Austin today some of the people arrested, with $1m bonds none the less, are members of a Bikers for Christ charity club and veteran charity organizations. Some have no known gang affiliation and no criminal records. Apparently this was a big bike day for many different organizations.
Bikers for Christ? you say…they really should have known better. No sympathy from this Christian. If no one can tell your affiliation what is the difference from the heathen? Seriously jw…
I think we are all missing the larger picture here….all those Harley’s in harms way! That’s a damn Greek tragedy.
They can always ride pink Vespas for a macho image.
I have not rode a Vespa since 62, loved that thing. It was not pink.
TTAG is dead to me.
I understand that some people find it hard to believe that Waco police could ever cause more harm than good in any situation, but it is worth exploring. What is worse, a massive brawl among bikers or the police mowing them down? Im not saying the police did that or even acted out of line (because I don’t know enough certain facts) but if they did kill the nine people… that would be a police massacre. 🙁
“. . . cause more harm than good in any situation, but it is worth exploring. ” This is the point, I believe.
Let’s concede, for the sake of the discussion, that all the bikers are unsympathetic victims. Let’s assume that they are all violent criminals. Now, let’s concentrate on what are – or ought to be – the proper rules-of-engagement for deploying lethal force.
If the bikers were firing shots at each other in a populated parking lot then there is a risk of poor marksmanship that could endanger bystanders or the police. Any biker aiming at another biker – justifiably or not – represented a threat. However, I’ve read of only one biker gun drawn and the rest of the arms were knives.
Operating under the assumption that all the bikers are violent criminals, they shouldn’t enjoy the presumption of “innocence” in the brawl. Assailant-biker A might have been about to knife guilty-biker G because G cast dispersions on A’s paternity. In such a scenario, is a 3’rd party free to assault A with deadly force to protect G? Admittedly, the police couldn’t know that G was guilty of provoking or escalating the fight. Perhaps G is entitled to a presumption of innocence and the police are free to intervene in shooting A. How do we apply this rule-of-engagement to the civilian good-Samaritan? Are civilians now free to use deadly force to stop a fight by shooting the fighter who has the upper-hand assuming the guy-on-the-ground must be innocent?
Imagine the police in Times Square see a man knifing a woman in the middle of a crowd. Are the police free to shoot the man with the knife at the risk of killing or injuring a 3’rd party in the crowd having nothing to do with the apparent assault?
I’m perfectly willing to assume that every police shot landed exactly where aimed and that every biker the police aimed at held an up-raised knife against a biker choir boy. Are we all perfectly comfortable – under such assumptions – that the police shots conformed to the rules-of-engagement for use-of-lethal-force? Are we comfortable with non-police civilians using lethal-force under the same circumstances? Or, is there nothing to be learned from this case? Blue trumps black-leather-jackets?
And I thought I was being too sensitive. My “Dr. Hook” persona, “Everything pisses me off”. This ain’t the world I was born in.
It’s been circling the drain for a while now. Too bad.
Put on your tinfoil hats ladies and gents. More anti-cop rhetoric and conspiracy theories from TTAG.
170 arrested bond set at a million a head…..something aint right about this maybe it was all a strategy Waco {whacko} played out…
Bikers, not the normally law abiding kind, more like the organized crime kind, break bad in public, at a business that invited them (?), which was stupid, cops shoot them. So far, no reports of bystanders injured. And the problem is? If the cops were not there, then it would have been a, “the cops were only minutes away when seconds counted” moment. Now the gangs are threatening the cops? No, they are exercising their version of anarchy. Something that is barely controlled nation wide today. Maybe next time they will meet in some run down bar in the desert. May sound harsh, but, I have seen this trash before, I do not mean them well.
So true. So many people who are a 2A supporters say the cops are always late when someone is about to be attacked or shot or whatever. And I agree, the cops are rarely there when the crime is going down.
So, this time they were proactive, and were there to prevent the brawl from getting out of hand and innocent people being killed or injured, and now lots of people on here are complaining that they shot the criminals. I don’t get it.
The bikers were criminals . . . drug dealers, pimps, violent offenders, and no one can say they were just a bunch of nice guys out for a Sunday ride. We all know they weren’t. The cops and the owners of Twin Peaks corporate tried to get the manager not to host this biker gathering because they were afraid there would be violence, but he did and there was. The cops responded and that’s the end of the story for the guys who ended up under a sheet.
Funny how some people who claim to support 2A are in favor of extrajudicial government murder.
Why even have 2A at all?
To maybe protect ourselves from people like you? Altho, I don’t mind killing without a firearm either. Take my firearm, crawl thru my window, you are still going to die. Most criminally minded people seem to be anti 2nd amendment. Quite a few seem to be anti social as well. Sorry, I am having a bad day, my allergies are killing me. To be honest, ain’t nothing so until you can prove it. Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it is probably a duck. Hey, you can tell me, was it really a meteor that lead to you guys being extinct?
The irony of someone calling others “anti-social” even as they brag about how they’ll immediately kill any intruder without regard to circumstance. In most states, that’s considered a crime, brah. That makes you “criminally minded”.
With luck your next intruder will be a roid-raging SWAT pig. 😉
Sexual Tyrannosaurus, you sweet talker you. I wasn’t bragging, I have, have you? (not something to do every day). The circumstance is, I am legally where I am and they are not, in most states that would make it legal. Try it, you may not like it. You are nothing but a troll, and a online BShitter. This will be our last transmission. I could be insulting, but I won’t. By the way, how does it feel to be the last of your species?
I sure hope you’re not a lawyer.
Also do you really not get the cultural reference? Seriously?
I’ll wait to see the results of the forensics and ballistics…..that is IF they get released.
I suspect that most of not ALL of the dead and wounded were struck by police bullets.
All that need happen in such a situation is ONE LEO to see, or ‘think’ he sees a gun.
He yells ‘GUN’ or takes a shot at the perceived threat and within a fraction of a second
ALL the other LEO start shooting also…by reflex. And they seldom stop till the magazine
is empty and they have to reload…at which time they might engage reason and thought.
If you recall the videos from the arrest of Tsokar Tsarnaev…..the kid found UNARMED in
the boat ….there was a LOT of gunfire heard on scene in the video. And since Tsokar
was UNARMED all of that gunfire was from LEO firing at anything and everything…..reflexively.
That’s true about Dhokar, just as it was when the LAPD & Co. opened fire on innocents at least twice during the Dorner hunt. As in Boston, the cops were especially vengeful since one of their own had been ambushed.
Killing people to save lives……seems to becoming a more accepted theme these days.
There was a little more news on the local radio this morning. From what I have seen so far, the Waco police chief’s stated version of what happened seems to be most logical version of evens I’ve heard.
That said, they also seem to have arrested people because they were there, not because they were engaged in violence. The police are complaining that the investigation is going very slowly because of a lack of communication from the 170 people they have arrested and given $1M bail. I guess they were trying to show people they were serious, but instead they probably just scared a lot of people who just got caught up in the net and turned them into opponents instead of allies.
Its funny. The first thought that came into my head upon first reading the news was, “I wonder how many of those dead were killed by the cops?”
*sigh*
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/nov/09/nation/la-na-nn-suv-motorcycle-clash-new-york-20131109
A grand jury in New York has indicted an undercover detective who took part in a violent clash between motorcyclists and an SUV driver, an incident which gained nationwide attention after video of the altercation swept across the Internet.
Wojciech Braszczok was indicted on nine different charges, including first-degree gang assault, first- and second-degree assault, riot and coercion, according to court records.
Braszczok, 32, would face up to 25 years in prison if he is convicted.
And
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Retired-San-Antonio-detective-arrested-in-Waco-6274647.php
SAN ANTONIO — A retired San Antonio Police Department detective with ties to the Bandidos Motorcycle Club was among the 170 people arrested in Waco on Sunday after nine people were killed following a brawl between motorcycle clubs and gangs at a Twin Peaks restaurant.
Martin Lewis, 62, served 32 years with SAPD until his retirement in February 2004. He was charged with engaging in organized criminal activity and still being held on $1 million bond, according to McLennan County jail records.
Guys. Resist the temptation to be trolled into a pi$$ing contest.
Let the Bloomberg Blood-dancers seize the opportunity to let no crisis go to waste, and besmirch their credibility once again.
I’m sure there will be many twists and turns that will be quite entertaining, without having to accuse TTAG of secret agendas, etc…
There are very few violations of TOS here, and the moderation is very light, which is rare all by itself on the innertubz, precisely because we the users agree to a modicum of respect for one another, and the free bbq that TTAG hosts here.
Lets not act like a bunch of biker guys getting in a bar fight, in other words.
Too little, too late. The line was crossed long ago. TTAG is a goldmine for anti-gunners looking to prove how vicious, intolerant, negative, ignorant we all are.
original question:
Was Waco Biker Brawl A Police Massacre?
answer (to borrow from hizzonor, the mayor of chicago, rahm immanuel:
“never let a crisis go to waste !”
Given the recent outlaw biker shootout in Waco, please See The Charles Falco Story,a real life Sons of Anarchy,best selling book and hit TV show on History Channel.
Charles, a former high level Los Angeles drug dealer/mobster turned ATF infiltrator is the foremost expert in the world on 1% Outlaw Motorcycle Clubs and is available for interviews free of charge!
It is important to note, within the last three days Charles has been featured on CNN, Sean Hannity and dozens of other high profile news outlets.
I wonder which cop went undercover to incite the excuse to execute a bunch of grubby guys on crappy motorcycles? Just another demographic the cops feel free to execute for fun…
First they came for … and I wasn’t a… Ah, nevermind… Nobody here cares.
If the police didn’t kill them all, they wouldn’t be holding back the evidence otherwise.
It’s now October 7, 2015.
I’m hoping that by now everyone has figured out that:
“THIS SO-CALLED SHOOTING WAS JUST ANOTHER HOAX!!!!!
What’s it gonna’ take to get some of these thick-headed people to at least investigate a little for chrissakes!!!!
There are NUMEROUS youtube videos presenting absolutely undeniable proof that this was a staged, acted and scripted HOAX just like ALL the other shooting drill HOAXES shown on Zionist-owned Tee-effin-Vee!
Go to Google Images and you’ll see bikers sitting around in chairs. Please wake-up people. Our government has been hijacked.
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