I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with how this shootout went down. I, too, might scream like a little girl in the same situation. And . . . result! But I think it raises a few questions. Like what was that about limiting civilians to ten rounds (seven in New York should you be lucky enough to surmount the hurdles preventing residents from exercising their Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear a firearm)? And assuming this guy was a criminal before he emerged from his vehicle all gun’s blazing, what would/did he care about mag cap limits? One more: how many times do you shoot a guy when he’s lying on the ground? Your thoughts?

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71 COMMENTS

  1. Holy crap.

    He was lying on the ground, but he still had his gun(s) from what I could see.

    Man, that is a scary scenario. Assuming it was a traffic stop… Wow.

    It sounded like there were two LEOs, one male and one female. Both apparently survived. I think one said she was hit. Not sure.

    Scary stuff.

  2. A. The cop needs practice, he was hitting the ground in front of the guy, B. The criminal probably didn’t have a ccw. C. At the end of the shootout you have an idiot running across the open street not 5seconds after last shot. Yeah looked like at least 3 hits on bad guy out of 15+. I like living in a free(ish) state where I can have 17 round mags.

    • The first thing I learned about Glocks is that they shoot very low when you grip them too tightly. What happens when the adrenaline hits? You think it might tighten the grip a bit?

    • Griz. Ever been in combat? Sounds like two cops, with one hit. Their seated in the car, probably getting the citation book out and this guy jumps out and opens fire. Sounds like the first cop was hit early on. You’re the other cop, dodging bullets, trying to get your gun out and get in a position to return fire. You’ve got some concealment but a door is not much cover.
      Your partner is screaming and the whole thing is a CF. He’s got you in a really bad place. Good luck hitting with your first shot!

      I’ve been there and understand the adrenalin dump, it’s very difficult to keep your thoughts in order. It’s hard to get fire superiority when he’s got the rifle and you’ve got a pistol and he’s willing to maneuver and you can’t. So you shoot for all you’re worth while you’re trying to stay alive. Sure muscle memory helps but the BG had all the advantage with the rifle and the surprise. It appears he ran out of ammo…In this case you will show no restraint and will probably empty your gun and you will most likely miss…a lot. That cop wasn’t on a timer shooting at paper that doesn’t shoot back.

      Having said that, if this guy was in your house and they found bullet holes in the floor underneath him, you’d have some fancy explaining to do.

      • Nope never been in combat, glad I haven’t. I appreciate those that have, if you notice I was not bashing the law enforcement for screaming or using up that much hard to find ammo, Just that more practice would have helped the officer decrease his/her rate of fire and control hand position etc. etc. etc. In the words of Bruce Lee “Pefect Practice makes perfect”

        • Griz. You haven’t been there but you were bashing his accuracy. You have no idea how much practice the cop had done. You are just assuming he didn’t. First instinct is to protect yourself. The last thing you’re going to want to do is stick your head up in the door window to shoot and you’re sure not going to step out, take up your weaver stance with a good two hand grip and brave the fire. I guarantee you won’t do it in this situation. You’ll most likely try to get cover behind your car and you’ll be shooting in the general direction of the threat with one hand until you have some cover to try to keep him as far away as you can. In a situation like this, most will find out they’re not as good as they think they are. They didn’t have any time and they were sitting on their guns. The other cop may have been screaming into the mike and didn’t even realize she was screaming. When surprised and instantly facing death, the voice tends to go up several octaves…even if you’re well-trained and Jeff makes a very good point about the death grip on the Glock. If you’re the aggressor and in control from the outset, it is much easier to remain cool.

  3. The shooter kept looking down, almost like he was trying to reload. I know I would’ve kept shooting in that situation. Maybe I should start carrying 2 spare mags instead of just one…

  4. no one knows how they will react when suddenly facing a deadly assault like that and any enemy worth shooting is worth shooting many times 🙁

  5. “How many times do you shoot a guy when he’s lying on the ground? “

    ‘Til I’m done.

    • At least if they die in the fire fight the states tax payers don’t have to pay room and board.

      • After surviving that, would you want to press your luck? I say no, make sure he’s done.

    • Judging by the contents of his car and the weapons he was carrying it wouldn’t be a big streatch to think this guy was looking to be the next Lanza.

  7. The rule of thumb is keep shooting until the attacker is no longer a threat or you run out of ammunition. If the attacker is still moving and holding their gun — regardless of whether they are standing or laying down — the attacker is still a threat.

  8. Definitely see nothing wrong with this vid. I would like some back story on the perp.

  9. It sounded to me like, even after he was down the guy said he had a pistol. He was facing the cops the whole time and never let go of his gun. You shoot until the threat is gone.

    In the real world people yell, scream, cuss , cry and soil themselves in shitstorms. They also throw up. It ain’t hollywood with Bruce or Clint slinging one liner’s along with the lead.

  10. the LEO’s fired 29 rounds, the attacker had a 40rd mag and in his car, they found instructional books/dvds:
    • Acquiring New ID
    • Kitchen Approved Plastic Explosives
    • Big Book of Homemade Weapons
    • Advanced Close-Range Gunfighting
    • Converting Model Rockets Into Explosive Missiles
    • Kitchen Improvised Fertilizer Explosives
    • Be Your Own Undertaker”

    this is a much better write up on what happened:
    http://www.policeone.com/police-trainers/articles/6220154-Going-from-zero-to-gunfight-in-fractions-of-a-second/

  11. Suicide by cop. If you listen you can hear the scumbag saying “kill me”

    How many rounds do you need?
    >>>Officer Savage fired 29 rounds.<<<
    As many as it takes!

    • Looks like he was already planning something, but decided this was it when he got pulled over.

      He doesn’t cry kill me until after he is hit in the torso. More of that brave until actually shot shooter syndrome.

  12. Damn, while sitting at a computer screen it sounds like a lot of rounds fired. If one was there live I bet it sounds like not enough rounds fired.

  13. It’s a wonder both of the officers weren’t killed before they could even react. This is one to make you appreciate you’re not a cop.

    • Or if you are a cop, don’t let your wife know about the video. And also get out of the car a whole lot faster on a traffic stop – my only critique. Although their agency may train them to stay in the car while they run the plate.

      Still…harrowing.

      • One did get out. That’s why he moves to his right, to get at her as she hid behind the rear of the vehicle. A commentator above has a link to an excellent policeone.com report on the incident.

        • He did, but they got out of the car slowly. There’s no reason to be sitting in the patrol car behind the car you’ve just stopped. Get out of the patrol car faster than the suspect – exactly for scenarios such as this.

  15. how many times do you shoot a guy when he’s lying on the ground?

    As many times as I possibly can.

    • HOLY CRAP!!!!! Talk about a bad day at work! As for excessive shooting of the bad guy? Not in my opinion. With the MASSIVE adrenilin dump these officers had to be experiencing, I thought that they actually showed restraint. I would have been stomping the guy after my gun went empty.

  16. Did someone else come out towards the end? Right after he goes down it sounds like an elderly man and asks something like “Is Hr down,” gets something yelled at him, then says “I have a pistol.”

  17. Wow! I see nothing wrong with what the cops did. Makes me want a 1,000 round magazine. That guy was determined to do some more shooting but that last flurry of rounds fired at him finally scored and put him down.

  18. Good shoot but I’m not impressed by their duty ammo. Looks like he took a hit to his abdomen but he was able to stand back up and continue the attack well after the first round strikes. It was far from a “one shot stop” that everyone wants in their ammo.
    I know shot placement trumps everything but I would like to know what their authorized ammo consists of.

    • Well after reviewing it a second time, it looks like he gets shot in the abdomen, backs up, continues firing, takes a knee and then permanently put down. But I’m still not impressed with whatever their duty ammo is.

      • Agree. That’s a good question although his adrenalin rush could have temporarily blocked the shock or he may have been on drugs. How many times do you hear about an intruder getting shot and running out of the house only to be found dead later? That’s why you keep shooting until the threat is over. Just don’t walk up and execute him after he’s down and not a threat. DA’s frown on that.

    • all handguns are underpowered for instant incapacitation. He wen’t down within a few seconds of being hit, that’s why you just keep shooting til he’s down. He was pumped up on adrenaline, no regard for his life, I bet w .357 magnum or .44 magnum wouldn’t have made much of a difference in that situation (aside from the cops running out of ammo faster). I live not too far from Middlefield, shoot at the public range nearby, this is a huge shock to me, its a quiet rural community that has a very large Amish population. Bucolic and idealic are adjectives that come to mind when I think of that town.

      • Good point. Handgun rounds are notoriously ineffective for immediate incapacitation. I agree shoot until the threat is gone. But I wonder if they’ll be reviewing their ammo or duty gun choices in the future. This coming from a guy that confidently carries a Glock 19. I just hope if I’m ever in that situation my adrenaline dump lasts longer than his.

    • Well during the flurry of fire that killed him, I counted one officer firing 17 rounds, so we know that it was a 9mm. I’ve got money on a G17.

  19. The original video link is dead, but Matt’s link is working. After watching the vid, I have no criticism for the police. Its pretty amazing they’re not both dead. Under these ambush conditions, I doubt there are many people who would have had a better hit ratio.

    The guy was obviously suicidal. Not only did he say it, but after his initial barrage he took a knee and appeared to wait for the inevitable. He didn’t seek cover, try to reload, or reach for another weapon. If he had pressed the assault it could have been much worse.

    • Agree. After reading the article on Police One, the officers responded very well and training kicked in very quickly. I’d guess the abdominal hit was pretty good and it took the shock a few seconds to set in. The rest is history. Once he lowered the gun, he was toast.

  20. Okay, some pointers for my fellow LEO’s.
    1. Have your traffic stop called in before you come to a stop behind the violator to include location and plate or at least description of the vehicle if you can’t read the plate. I noticed one of the LEO’s was having to give a location after the fight had already begun.
    2. As soon as the wheels stop, get out and cautiously approach. With two LEO’s in the vehicle, at least one should have been out of the vehicle already. The perp was most likely preparing himself and the rifle for the engagement. If one of the LEO’s had gotten up there, this may have been ID’d early and could have been defused without shots fired. Do not remain seated in your patrol car.

    • Amazing how trapped you are sitting in a car with your gun holstered. Should the officer driving have tried to do something with the car?

      • What I do when someone in the violator car gets out before I can, in other words they beat me to the punch, is I’m shifting into reverse and creating distance. In this particular video, however, it appears neither LEO exits their car until at least 30 seconds after wheels stop turning.

    • Please do not take this as criticism of the LEO’s actions. They did the best that could be done under the circumstances presented to them. I want to share an observation that I noticed in the video and haven’t seen commented on.

      I thought I heard the female officer say something to the effect of “he’s hiding”. I could of misheard it. In an effort to possibly saving someone from a similar situation in the future, I would like to make a suggestion:

      In a similar situation, if you even suspect that the suspect is being elusive or trying to hide, you should immediately go into an offensive or defensive stance.

      In my CCW classes, I give my students brief instructions on how to handle a traffic stop, especially if they are armed. All of the suggestions are aimed at trying to alleviate the LEO’s fears of being surprised.

    • in a suicide by cop you don’t really need that many mags or explosives or whatever else they found on him. He was obviously suicidal, but it looks like he wanted to take as many people with him as he could.

      • No explosives were there. The other gun in his car was a .22 rifle. And if he wanted to take as many people as he could, why wasnt he wearing a load bearing vest or body armor? If he wanted to take as many people as he could, why was he shouting “just kill me, kill me”

        • he didn’t start screaming kill me til after he was hit, there was smokeless reloading powder found in his car.

  22. I am going with total kudos for the cops. Maybe every bullet didn’t hit, but enough did to make the threat go away.

    As a bonus, they may also have stopped the next mass public shooting. The one that would be exploited for new gun control.

    I hope TTAG follows up on this. I want to know who this scumbag was and what he was planning.

  23. Let’s say this guy decides to pull over in front of a citizen and do this. Bet you’d be glad the lawmakers decided 7 rounds is sufficient for you both…oh wait, he has more than that? Oh wait, he can’t do that, that’s wrong! And you’re dead

    It almost seemed like the female officer started yelling slightly before the gun was even visible. I certainly didn’t see it before I heard her yelling

  24. It is really disgusting reading all the “experts” here criticizing how an officer handles an active shooter situation.

    The cop and his partner had just had nearly a full mag of something emptied at them from some kind of rifle, good thing the bad guy was a bad shot.

    The officer returned fire to eliminate the threat, the guy had the rifle in his hands as he went down, of course they did the right thing pumping a bit more of a lead treatment into his system.

    • The story on the Police One link says it was an AK with a 40 rd. mag. and both officers were injured. Has the video and the perps name as well..

      • I, for one, have no problem with the officers’ actions or performance once the shooting started, however, I do have a problem with their traffic stop tactics prior to the perp exiting the vehicle.

  25. the BG either didn’t know to, didn’t care to, or just forgot to use cover. The story says both cops moved behind their car.
    As for the shooting after he fell, it didn’t seem an untoward number of rounds, or time frame.

  28. Anyone see the car coming, see the shoot out and go 60 mph in reverse? Amazing! All over in a few seconds.

  29. The best time to shoot a turd like that is when he is down. Shoot him until you run out of rounds. Then reload and shoot him again.

  30. This one is nothing like the one where a cop lost his life to a guy that got out of a pickup with a rifle also. Not a thing wrong with unloading on the perp who is on the ground, Randy

  31. It’s apparent you’ve never been in law enforcement Mr. Farago. Another example, of why I think competition and self defense are 2 separate animals entirely.

    A bad guy who comes out of the vehicle shooting at the cops, with a rifle, is going to get shot as many times as it takes to stop the threat. Just like I train my students to continue to shoot until the threat goes to the ground, just because he’s on the ground, doesn’t mean he can’t still pull the trigger. The 1986 FBI, Miami shootout is a prime example. People who are supposed to be dead, are still able to pull a trigger.

    These officers, stopped shooting, once they RECOGNIZED the threat had stopped. Period. I would recommend, you do the same. This is what happens in real life. Not in theory. Not by shooting a stage in an IDPA, or other match.

    A jury, who saw this video, I am sure, would side with the officers. I know I would if I was on that jury. Hopefully, there will be no such shenanigans. This is what happens when you try to kill the po-po.

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