Reader Alexander Strugatsky writes:
Recently, I visited the Holocaust Museum in D.C. Among its multitude of exhibits – artifacts, photographs, films and news publications – covering the birth of Nazism through its demise, along with tens of millions of people and, of course, the concentration on the extermination of six million Jews, was a glaring void. It was so blatantly obvious that there is no possibility of attributing it to an oversight . . .
The museum organizers have simply chosen not to present or even mention that none of the unspeakable atrocities would have happened had the people to be exterminated been armed. And, in many cases, had they had been disarmed by legal government policies.
It’s a motto of the post WWII Jews to say “Never Again” and yet they continue to actively support civilian disarmament, even in the face of rising anti-Semitism. It seems that this ideological illness is stronger than even an instinct for self-preservation, leaving the survival of the future generations to a formula best employed by rabbits – quantitatively superior reproduction.
How many more Holocausts will it take for human brains to evolve?
Yeah. That’s the part that defies logic. I realise that all religions are represented in the anti gun camp. But the jews are the one group that I would expect to be rabidly pro gun.
And yet we have kapo bloomberg, feinstein, etc.
I think that one’s easy: it’s the aphrodisiac of “control.” It tastes good enough to them to offset the shame of selling out their heritage.
I know this is most assuredly pointless, but I just couldn’t not comment on the absurdity ignorant comments I have read so far on this post.
I am the son of a woman who’s parents fled the Nazis, met in British Palenstein, married and had my mother.
If anyone, in their right mind, thinks that the Jews of Europe had they been armed would have had a different fate are delusional. France, Belgium, Denmark, etc., etc., where armed, organized and had experience in warfare, were over runned by the Nazis. What the Fuck do you think that had Jews spread across Europe been armed would have saved them???? It’s ludicrous to think so.
Many comments say that Jews are “left” leaning. How about Benjamin Netanyahu? Think he is a socialist? Jews are like any other people. They cross the political spectrum. How racist to say they are all “New York Jews”. Are all blacks poor Mississippi sharecroppers? Are all Episcopalians rich businessmen? The only trait I think, as a Jew, we as a people share is a quest for knowledge. If that quest results in a questioning of gun rights, to then mostly reasonable rules, so be it.
To think that the ugly history over thousands of years of Jews being persecuted equates that Jews should naturally be armed goes against natural discourse. An eye for an eye doesn’t accomplish anything. Teaching is what changes the world. That is what I think a Jew is: a teacher and a learner.
The Jews in Warsaw made it pretty fucking tough on the Nazis. Imagine if the rest of Europe acted that way. It wouldn’t have been nearly as easy and many families would still be alive today.
But if turning the other cheek is preferable, then by all means.
Jews in America seem to be overwhelmingly left-leaning. They repeatedly vote for leftist “progressive” politicians. I remember back in 1984 when Charles Percy (R-IL) lost to Paul Simon (D-IL). Israel had no better friend than Percy, yet it was reported that Jews in IL voted overwhelmingly for Simon.
What were some of the classes they taught Germans at Dachau?
And NYC is reportedly 110% Jewish, and even voted for Hillary! That’s pretty far left!
Of course, Jews having pistols or rifles in their closets would not have stopped the Nazi tide. Same, as you say, the armed Belgians did not. There is a fundamental difference – the Belgians’, the Dutch’s and, especially, the French’s choice was to die for a nebulous idea of who rules them or surrender and continue their peaceful lives. The Jews, at least at some point, already knew that they were being exterminated. People fight very differently when there is no other choice as, in fact, Warsaw demonstrated. But even prior to that, in the beginning of the rise of Nazism, bullies were enabled by the lack of response to the bullies. They didn’t start their careers on top of the tanks.
With regard to the Holocaust Museum’s exhibit, there is very small display of the Warsaw uprising and barely a mention of other groups’ resistance. There is also a display of a rusted Mauser rifle that was used in the uprising – so rusted, without stock and deteriorated, that it is barely recognizable as a weapon. I would think that the many Jews that did resist and died heroically in the process, as opposed to as cattle, deserve more recognition than shown by the this museum.
Many folks get the American Jew confused with the ‘JEW ‘. To say you have Jewish blood in you makes you a Jew is as stupid as saying if you have African American blood in you , you’re black or because your distant relative was a Roman you’re an Italian . To be a JEW means you practice your Jewish faith , which is very, very difficult to do . It is a common fact among American Jews that only a very small percentage of them are practicing and in order to live with out continual self condemnation they lean liberal and at this time in history liberals have directly associated themselves with progressivism which is anti gun . If liberals started being pro gun again then the American Jew would follow suit . It is easy to sit back and take Liberal stances on issues because it means ‘ you care ‘ , you want to feed the hungry and take care of the poor . The simple truth is , Conservative Christians give more to take care of the poor and hungry per capita than any other group of humans on earth .
I do believe that had the Jewish Europeans along with many other ethnic minorities stood up and fought for their gun rights the out come of history may well have played out less destructive to the Jew , Albanians , Gypsys and countless other peoples of that time . I don’t know , I just believe giving up your ability to defend yourself sends a government a signal that you are willing to be their sheeple .
Could be the thinking is, if Nazi had not had guns, they could not have subdued the Jewish people quite so easily = guns bad OR maybe just it will never happen to me thinking = stinking thinking?
“Kapo bloomberg, Feinstein, etc”
They make up a pretty small percentage of that demographic.
From what I understand, the closest thing to “post-holocaust jews” are in Israel and they are not really known for being soft. For every Feinstein there’s a Golda Meir. She was a badass lady. I enjoy stories about the early mossad.
Probably because they know that tens of thousands of Jews DID HAVE GUNS and DID FIGHT AGAINST the Nazis. There were over 100,000 Jews in the Polish Army . . . defeated by the Wehrmacht. And the Polish Ghetto uprising was defeated by the Wehrmacht too, as a rearguard action but still with vicious retribution. There were also 500,000 Jews that served in the Soviet Red Army which was initially swept back from the Ukraine and the Baltic States. Once those professional state defenses crumbled, the Nazis instituted their Holocaust in OCCUPIED territory.
An armed populace is no match for a dedicated and resolutely vicious professional military. Just ask General William T. Sherman. Or the Shiite insurgency of ’91 against Saddam Hussein. Or the well-armed defenders of the Gaza Strip. If total war and extermination is the goal, then mechanized infantry, armor, artillery and air power can easily decimate a civilian population equipped with small arms. This is just basic military science. An armed civilian Jewish population would not have deterred the Nazi war machine in the least.
So what did the French and then the Americans do wrong with the Vietnamese?
The same with the Afghans and the Russian military?
Not vicious enough?
“The same with the Afghans and the Russian military?”
The Soviets were first invited into Afghanistan by the radical socialist Afghani President Nur Mohammad Taraki to tip the balance of what was already an Afghani civil war. The Soviets never intended a total war or one of national extermination (the key qualifying factors I mentioned) against the entire Afghani population, they entered to bolster a pro-Soviet side, and when that fell apart it was classic mission creep. They went through a spiraling series of stooges trying to establish a sympathetic Afghani government until it grew too costly. It was well within the means of the USSR to have exterminated 80% of the population of Afghanistan if the Soviet leadership believed it necessary to subdue the country through total war.
So too with the Americans in Vietnam. Ngo Dinh Diem was abysmal as a leader of South Vietnam, and after his assassination (with or w/o the CIA, doesn’t matter) it was a parade of ineffectual military dictators America was attempting to prop up. In both cases, neither superpower could justify using tactical nuclear weapons for defeating their opponents.
France was a spent force, a 2nd rate power after WWII, that got suckered into DIen Bien Phu. If they had nukes in ’54 they would have used them.
That’s a lot of assumptions Joshua , not assuming you’re wrong , just pointing out the obvious , assuming an outcome is puberty at it’s peak .
Yup because the wermacht had absolutely no problems with partisans operating behind their lines in Russia or Yugoslavia, or Greece.
That is simply not true. If the German Army had been occupied trying to exterminate six million armed Jews, they would have been defeated and the war over far sooner. Instead, a few hundred weak soldiers killed six million without any opposition, while the army worked elsewhere. You have too much respect for a tank. The people inside have to come out sometime, and now we have a tank!
Larry,
” Instead, a few hundred weak soldiers killed six million without any opposition,”
Plus 6-7 million non-Jews. Almost every Jew I know “forgets” the other “undesirables” and I find that annoying.
JPFO.org. And as Ralph helpfully likes to point out when this subject comes up, if you look at a list of prominent American gun-grabbers you’ll see way more Catholics than Jews. The reason most Jews are left-leaning is because most American Jews were raised in and live in progressive urban cities surrounded by gentiles and other Jews with such attitudes, not because Jewish culture or Judaism inherently promote such attitudes. Reference Israel.
The Jewish partisans who fought against Nazi Germany in World War II had great difficulty in acquiring weapons. Still, they had a far higher likelihood of survival while killing soldiers of Nazi Germany in the forests than they did while simply surviving in the ghettos. If these communities had been armed to begin with, the Jewish resistance certainly would have been much stronger with much greater German casualties and more Jewish survivors. There was plenty of will to fight back in the ghettos, but only so much can be done with a few smuggled firearms and some homemade molotov cocktails. A decent supply of submachine guns, assault rifles, and battle rifles would have gone a long way.
That may be part of the reason, but the reason I’ve read is that Jews have bought into the lie that liberals are for the “little guy” and the downtrodden, and since Jews have been persecuted they identify with that.
We don’t have a survey of rural, red state Jews to see if they’re significantly more progressive than the communities they live in.
There definitely is a strain of Jewish thought about the role of government helping the little guy. Of course, this goes right along with the wishful thinking that hatred of Jews is a thing of the past and “why would anyone hate decent hardworking citizens like us?” rhetoric that is a fixture right before most massacres of Jews in the last two thousand years. The “it’ll never happen to us now, despite it happening to us in every previous generation, things are different now” thinking remains strong. I’m hopeful that it won’t happen in America, being that America is different as an extremely diverse nation where there isn’t a strong ethnic majority anymore. But those who do not heed the lessons of history are fools.
I don’t like talking about an entire ethnic group like it’s monolithic and “they all think alike”. There’s a lot of diversity among the Jewish community. Some of the most conservative figures I know of are Jewish. Off the top of my head, Mark Levin, Dennis Prager, “Mr. Conservative” himself Barry Goldwater, etc. Many prominent libertarians too, like Adam Kokesh. And of course my friends at Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership are anything but progressive.
Paelorian-Goldwater was NOT Jewish. His mother was a protestant non-Jewish and he was either episcopal or presbyterian. But I get your point. Would there were more Jewish folks like you…I lived in Chicago,worked downtown and the vast majority were ultra left…ditto the antique trade I ply.
Here’s Barry Goldwater’s New York Times obituary. Your point is valid, Barry Goldwater was an Episcopalian his entire life. But in this context, I’m talking about Jewish ethnicity and ancestry. Goldwater’s father’s family was completely Jewish and never shied from identifying as Jewish in an ethnic context. I’m not saying I consider him a Jew just because he has partial Jewish ancestry. The world has made the decision for him. Like Benjamin Disraeli, willingly baptized as an Anglican at age 12 and who remained so for life, those of recent Jewish ancestry are regarded as Jews by Jew-haters no matter their religion or how they identify. Put it this way: Barry Goldwater would have been a victim of the Nazi “final solution” just like all the other Jews and “mischlings” of partial Jewish ancestry. No matter what a person like that does, they will always be targeted as Jews. There were plenty of Christians murdered at Auschwitz.
Thanks for the compliment. I grew up in a typically left-wing Brooklyn home surrounded by progressives. Most of my friends who grew up in similar circumstances are far-left, adopting the ideology all around themselves. It was only due to the internet that I was exposed to and came to appreciate other views, some of which I adopted for myself. I’m currently still tied to New York, but I’m planning a move to the mountain states in the near future because I demand to live in a culture of liberty.
Oh, and not in response to what you said, but I regret that in my last post I neglected to drop the name of John Milius, the most conservative, libertarian, right-wing and, of particular note, by far the most pro-gun filmmaker in Hollywood history. A good counterpoint to thoughts of the “left-wing Jewish media”.
I don’t blame anyone for seeing a pattern of left-wing attitudes in their experiences with American Jews. In my own experience, that’s usually been the case as well (but of course, that experience has also largely been in New York City). But they’re also human beings. Demographically, they’re usually on the left. And African-Americans are as well. Rural whites in the American south are usually on the conservative side. White people in San Francisco are mostly left-wing. These demographic norms shouldn’t be used to make assumptions about the attitudes of an individual just because of his background, ancestry, or minority status. White people in America usually don’t make the assumption “whites hold these attitudes” because they’re so aware that white people can hold all kinds of attitudes. They’ve met a lot of other white people and seen the diversity. White people are found across the country and in all the various American subcultures. With a small minority group like Jewish people, 2% of the American population and shrinking, most Americans haven’t met that many Jews to have an idea of the diversity within the population. The ones they know are probably secular Jews from New York City or Los Angeles, and reflect that culture. But of course, as people blacks, Jews, whites, American Indians, whatever, they all can hold any and every political inclination if they’re exposed to it and come to believe in it. I think the readers of The Truth About Guns generally get that and believe in the potential for individuals of all stripes to correctly determine what’s right and wrong. Speaking of TTAG, Robert Farago and Dan Zimmerman are other good examples of the conservative potential of Jews. And I would not be surprised about some of the other regular contributors who don’t get so personal, maybe one of the guys who doesn’t give his last name.
It is with a hope that some individuals, Jewish or not, may take a reasoned view of reality, including history and a very real possibility of the future repeating it, and will turn to liberty and self-reliance, that the above article was written.
The holocaust did not happened, They tricked you yet again.
Another trailer park is missing it’s idiot.
Nah, more likely a pro-Iran leftist colony which likes to rant about the supposed “war crimes” of Israel.
It is easier to live with your head in the sand, then to seek the Truth.
Cite a valid source for your claims or you’re just another troll.
My friend’s grandfather was Eisenhower’s aide and driver during the war and toured the concentration camps with him. He took pictures. Those places were real.
People that believe otherwise, well, some people are just retarded.
You should know about having your head in the sand, camel jockey. Mohammed was a pedophile and false prophet, so stick THAT in your hookah and smoke it.
Mohammed was once a Jew , never JEWISH , but was a descendant of Abraham . No one can rationally say the that Nazi Germany , with the aid of a lot of other collaborators and head turners , did not execute millions of Jews , Pols , Czechs , gypsys , mentally challenged , deformed and handicapped , deaf and dumb , blind , etc. peoples , because they could . The Russians also participated in war crimes on massive scales , as did Chinese , Cambodians , Japanese , Sudanese , Kenyans , Romans , Greeks , Assyrians , Babylonians , Jews , ISIL , Saddam , Andrew Jackson , and on and on . It is a human characteristic and has been going on as long as people have turned away from a complete reliance on God and sought to control His creation rather than to live in harmony within it . To deny any holocaust is to deny our very nature . Don’t hate the JEW because they choose to record and keep the laws and nature of God as they were commanded to do . Hate that which is inside us that is in a perpetual war to tear us from truth . Accept our nature and humbly ask God for His providence of protection .
You have to be trolling.
I see this posited now and again but sincerely can’t wrap my head around anyone actually believing it.
My father was recruited in to the Office of Strategic Services late in the war. He helped arrest some of the Nazi war criminals, who had committed terrible crimes. Yeah, the Holocaust happened, my father got to experience some of its aftermath.
worst part is, once the holocaust is gone from living memory, say 4 generations or so, and we are all back to square one. The proof/facts will be disputed, false evidence and witness accounts tangled and its back to square one.
Still, I don’t understand why you would deny that it did happen in the first place. I mean sure, distorting facts and events will always benefit someone but how? 6m Jewish people were rounded up and killed in cold blood, saying they were not benefits who? How? Unless your working on the premise that your chosen faiths after life accommodations are limited and 6m Jewish people who died will hog all the good spaces?
“Still, I don’t understand why you would deny that it did happen in the first place”
Umm it is called the internet. It is a huge outlet for losers that have loser life’s and need to make shit up.
Same people believe that the children killed at Sandy Hook were actors and were not real. Or 9/11 was orchestrated by the US government. There is even a video on youtube right not saying that those two reporters killed last week if fake.
In reality, this troll knows that the Holocaust was real. His only wish was that he missed his dream of running a camp. So now these human feces try to provoke others. Ignore them; they smell when disturbed.
I understand the frustration of those that won’t both remember and be honest about how to not repeat terrible history but I don’t see a lot of mystery regarding a museum not pushing pro-gun ideas, especially one located in DC. There are clearly many of us that do not need any evolutionary change to our brain in this area and this obviously includes many Jews. We don’t even need a lineage to holocaust victims in order to understand.
“I understand the frustration of those that won’t both remember and be honest about how to not repeat terrible history ”
In America, WE are currently ignoring the same intentions of the statist ideology, that was leveled against the Jews. Stalin and the Soviets were way worse than the Nazis, because the public supported the State, which was just taking care of the nations domestic enemies.
The sperm donor, in the previous article about the NRA bumper sticker would gladly ignore the massacre of gun owners, and say WE deserved it.
“I understand the frustration of those that won’t both remember and be honest about how to not repeat terrible history ”
In America, WE are currently ignoring the same intentions of the statist ideology, that was leveled against the Jews.
The sperm donor, in the previous article about the NRA bumper sticker would gladly ignore the massacre of gun owners, and say WE deserved it.
It’s not possible to convince people that evil exists. They have to figure that out on their own. Denial is more than just a river in Egypt.
Any one who has ever been trod upon should default to being pro-gun. I don’t get how minorities, homosexuals, victims of abuse, victims of genocide can ever support civilian disarmament.
Unless “never again” really just means they’ll be quicker to flee next time.
Much like fleeing the killer rabbit (not the Carter rabbit, the other one):
https://youtu.be/7FPELc1wEvk
Carter rabbit brings back memories.
“Much like fleeing the killer rabbit ”
But it has long teeth!
Or are you gonna pull the Holy Hand Grenade trump card?
Somehow they all convince themselves that if the OTHER side didn’t have guns, there wouldn’t be a problem. Remember, the gun is a special mind control device that gives man evil thoughts and encourages him to do horrible things.
“Never-again” just means they believe the government’s promises to not be evil.=
While Google promises not to be evil, whether you believe them or not is a different question. The government never can and if they did, would you believe them?
Google has already violated that promise many times.
An orthodox rabbi friend of mine recently said to me “Fuck Hitler. He’s dead and we are still here.” My rabbi friend is a krav maga expert and carries all the time.
The concept of jews being anti-gun boggles my mind.
Simple, for many Jews, leftism is their religion, not Judiasm.
“Simple, for many Jews, leftism is their religion”
It is at my Reform ex-synagogue. I moved to a Conservative one with a very cool rabbi who is very pro-gun.
Anyone interested in the relationship between gun control and the Holocaust should check out “Gun Control: Gateway to Tyrrany” by Jay Simkin and Aaron Zelman of JPFO. It looks at the anti-gun laws that facilitated the Nazi rise to power, and also documents how they directly inspired U.S. gun control laws.
Unfortunately, now that Aaron Zelman has died, JPFO no longer reflects his spirit or passion. It has become another money tree for Gottlieb…
Take a look at The Zelman Partisans here: http://zelmanpartisans.com/
Aaron’s spirit lives on here.
ML,
“JPFO…[has] become another money tree for Gottlieb”
I suppose Alan Gottlieb could be accused of nepotism now that his son works at SAF, but don’t understand the comment – every institution need money to survive. Please explain what appears to be antipathy toward Alan Gottlieb.
Most Jews are Jews in Name Only and have been for decades. The dominant religion among descendents of Jews is secularism. That Jews were Communists in 1917 is understandable since the overwhelming majority of Jews in America came from Tsarist Russia. The big mystery is why so many Jews remained Communists after Stalin sold them out in 1939. The left continues to do so to this day.
My theory is that while people of Jewish ancestry are secularists they generally continue to socialize with other people of Jewish ancestry so they never have to come to terms with socialist antisemitism.
The number of activw collaborators are few. A Soros here, a Sanders there. However most are like Chuck Shumer. Prisoners of their Grandparents fears.
I getting sick of these posts that blame Jews for voting for or being gun grabbers. This logic is complete bullsh it. I don’t know how many times the simple explanation has been made. So one more time for the dullards at TTAG: those Jews that are ideologically leftists are not Jews. They are leftists first and foremost. If they had studied their own religion they would be pro-life which means pro-guns. The Jews in Israel are not upset by the sight of a gun, as you’ve likely seen girls in bikinis carrying their m16s to the beach. Those Jews put their religious ideology first.
Except that gun control is alive and well in Isreal.
I attribute the Israelis popular support for gun control largely to the fact that millions of European Jews migrated there after the war. Take into account the history of gun control/attitudes about gun ownership in Europe going back centuries and it’s easy to see why old habits die hard.
That is incorrect. If you need a firearm you get one. Especially in the territories. Tel Aviv is like New York, but there are Israelis that carry firearms there.
Any argument that holds up new York as an example of reason is doomed from the start. The same for any argument that is based off need, either you have a right or you don’t
Who gets to make the decision whether you “need” one or not?
“Any argument that holds up new York as an example of reason is doomed from the start.”
Stan’s not defending it, he’s *explaining* it.
Tel Aviv has recently been loosening the chokehold on gun permits.
It’s still not good, but it is getting better.
“The museum organizers have simply chosen not to present or even mention that none of the unspeakable atrocities would have happened had the people to be exterminated been armed.”
That’s because being armed is not the same thing as having the ability to fight off their attackers and there is no guarantee that it would’ve prevented the Holocast. The Jews were still up against a trained and determined army of soldiers bent on their capture / extermination. More Jews may have been able to escape and evade their attackers (by fighting back and winning small fights), so in theory more may have survived.
But to say being armed would’ve prevented the Holocast is pure speculation. If the Jews were well trained and also had a militia that outmatched the Nazi powers, then yes, it may be a different story.
Both perspectives of the pro and anti gun position are always black/white stances. There is a lot of gray between.
Fair enough; but one thing is certainly clear: they had zero chance after systematic disarmament.
Could they have fought back? We’ll never know. They would have had to have done it very early in the process…as soon as the antisemitism was ramping up. “Nip it in the bud,” so to speak.
But, it was also very early in the process that civilian disarmament kicked into high gear.
@Tjlarson-
The Jews were able to be controlled by very few evil men. What if the Jews started to kill the nazis and the nazis family members, along with the other Germans who were being indifferent to their genocide. The Jews had war declared upon them, and war is hell.
What would have happened if the Jews showed the nazis what men of will are capable of. Imagine turning the psychological warfare on the nazis, if the Jews would have pulled a Vlad the Impaler on an entire SS squad.
@JR
“Could they have fought back? We’ll never know. They would have had to have done it very early in the process…as soon as the antisemitism was ramping up. “Nip it in the bud,” so to speak.”
I hope you see the relevance of your comment to the current ideological fight that is taking place in America.
Let me guess it can’t happen here, since we are a nation of laws.
I recommend the movie “Defiance” It is the true story of a group of Jews in the Ukraine who stood up to the Nazis. Many Died but the took a lot of Nazis with them and their leader died ia natural death n NYC.
I was actually going to reference Defiance as a best-case scenario — small communities escaping and living in isolation vs. an invading force.
Note, that I’m not saying being disarmed would have the same outcome as being armed when you’re being invaded by an army. Of course, it would be better to be armed. And even better if they were trained and organized to fight/win against their attackers.
I just wanted to point out that we should be cautious with absolute statements that can’t be verified. I think bringing up the supporting arguments would be a better case (ie. Defiance) to say being armed resulted in more survivors.
Warsaw Ghetto, 1943. Jews armed with about 19 firearms held off the Nazis for 43 days, taking more guns from Nazis they had killed. The Nazis eventually had to send in an entire SS division to eliminate the resistance. A readable account of this resistance is the novel “Mila 18” by Leon Uris. In addition, Jews formed partisan guerilla groups fighting the Nazis in the forests of Poland, the Ukraine, and Russia. Does the Wash DC Holocaust Museum include any account of these armed resistance actions by Jews?
“Warsaw Ghetto, 1943. Jews armed with about 19 firearms held off the Nazis for 43 days,”
On April 19th, the start of Passover! They tried for their own Exodus and had more success than anyone could have imagined. The Nazis had to devote significant resources to “clear” the ghetto.
I make a point to mention is every year at my Passover seder.
Shamefully, the Holocaust Museum does not include this. Yes, there is a small display of the Warsaw uprising and an even smaller mention of the “Defiance” resistance. That’s all. Of course, posing theories of what could have happened under different circumstances is hypothetical, yet, if one adopts a motto of “Never Again,” it seems to me that being hypothetical is an acceptable option. I don’t think that the museum is against resistance in general; it is that the organizers see resistance as a state function and are fundamentally against such action coming from individuals. To give full control of every individual’s life to the State is the ultimate socialist goal and the museum’s marching in step with it is an insult to the millions of individuals that were murdered by a socialist state.
That “never again” motto that the West adopted is a lie. The West has allowed wholesale slaughter in many parts of the world, including Africa. Apparently “never again” only applies to people who look like us.
My late cousin survived life in a dozen of the worst camps the Nazis ever ran, yet she remained a gun control advocate her whole life. I never could fathom her rationale.
Europeans have been bred, taught, and culturally coerced to believe that “the state” will always come rescue you, from all problems big and small. Famine in the land? The King will fix it. Widespread Plague? The royal corps of doctors can handle this. Invasion by a foreign government? Our very own gov will kick ’em to the curb, you just sit back and watch. This mentality sank in for ages until warfare stopped being gentlemanly yet again in the late 19th century, but not even the industrialized massacre of civilians turned off that generational, obedience to authority light switch in every true European. It doesn’t surprise me that your cousin had that attitude. How many middle-aged and senior German Jews said “A good German never breaks the law” as they willingly sewed on their yellow stars? I’ll say it again, old habits die hard.
If you want to understand what is happening in the minds of such Jews, look no further than this quote:
I don’t know about you, but I cannot think of a better way to describe it. People who deny the process of genocide and mass murder have a depraved mind. History shows us that it happens over and over and over. Being weak and counting on some government — who are almost always the entity who commits genocide and mass murder — is exactly what enables genocide and mass murder.
In case you are interested in the source of that quote, it is from the Bible, Romans, chapter 1, verse 28.
Yep. As a once agnostic (now baptised christian)raised in the concentrated Progressive environment of the Bay Area in California, I can attest to the depraved mind of the Liberal/progressive cult.
“that none of the unspeakable atrocities would have happened had the people to be exterminated been armed.”
While this may make some folks feel good or that its a great meme to support current politics, the reality is quite different. For what it is worth the German war machine rolled thru countries across Europe and later took on the US of A. All were heavily armed. It took 6 years of concerted effort by nation states with all the associated manufacturing and military to defeat them. The Jewish population of Europe if armed would have evoked simply a stronger response and they would have died on their doorsteps. They neither had the localized population density or the organization to resist successfully a determined (which they were) policy of extinction. Sad but true. The calculus only changed with the establishment of Israel. And then it took 20 years to organize their military to levels that can contemplate pushing back on real armies.
Which is why the rural Afghanistans (and other more or less primitive populations lacking military hardware) managed to beat the crap out of the Russians, the Americans, and every other invader through history.
First go read some history. The Russkies KILLED a MILLION Afghanies. A MILLION. The native population was essentially going to dissappear. Women wore dresses in Kabul. They listened to rock music on the radio. Oh…and then we entered the scene with the prodding of Charlie Wilson. We provided the 5th century barbarians with shoulder fired missiles and other 20th century weaponry. The Russkies unlike the Germans (and that is who we are talking about right) didn’t like THEIR causalities and they quit. Even if you accept the Astan history as equivalent to Germany 1930’s I win. The Russkies simply killed whole villages, families etc. None of the niceties of America 21st Century. And certainly not like those NAZI bastards. Check out how they handled resistance fighters across Europe.
Oh, I’ve read the history. Talked to more than a few who were involved. Didn’t say any of it turned out perfectly for anyone… but the Russians eventually went home without actually “winning,” and so will the Americans. Actually, the outcome is absolutely the worst for the Afghani people in many ways, and the effects won’t wear off for a very long time.
The point was that they were able to resist for a very long time with minimal equipment and manpower. And in the end they were not conquered by either Russians or Americans. Their own “government” and religious rulers? They were in control before and will be again. And who knows what the people might have done absent the long, stupid wars of invasion?
Thank you for revealing your hatred of the west. Sadly guys like you lurk on forums. You surely talked to the wrong side. End of discussion.
While history is littered with many examples of lesser-armed indigenous populations holding off well-armed invaders, the situation for the Jews of Germany in the 1930s was pretty different. They weren’t in isolated, defensible enclaves. They were living alongside and greatly outnumbered by non-Jewish Germans, very few of whom came to their defense when the Nazis came calling (and plenty of whom helped in their persecution). Not quite the same situation as a unified population defending its homeland from a foreign invader.
It’s quite likely that any armed Jewish resistance early on would simply have accelerated the Holocaust, giving the Nazis some very valuable propaganda about “armed Jewish terrorists”. I’m definitely not saying that they should have gone quietly to slaughter. It’s always better to be armed than disarmed. But the idea that some guns in the right hands would have stopped the Holocaust is fantasy. If Germany’s Jews had been armed, though, they could have at least made the Holocaust much more costly for the Nazis.
This is the “rationale” given by many statists that a defensive use of a gun would only inflame the situation and make it worse. Yes, it would make it worse – for the attacker. Bullies, experience shows, are only brave when they are assured of the victim’s weakness. Stand up to a bully and see how fast he runs! So, yes, a rifle in a closet would not have made any difference. But weapons in the hands of people with an attitude that there is nothing more important than defending their lives is a very different story. Switzerland, in the middle of the Nazi empire, was never attacked – for this same reason.
“The calculus only changed with the establishment of Israel. And then it took 20 years to organize their military to levels that can contemplate pushing back on real armies.”
Where do you get your history? Israel was invaded by several “real armies” the DAY after they became a country, not 20 years after, and they kicked the invaders’ asses.
Yeah I don’t get it either-and as RF would attest being Jewish is not whether you are religious or not. The aloha snackbars will kill you whether you are Amy Schumer just as quickly as the guy with the skullcap and the prayer shawl. Or Rahm Emmanuel. Some of us have spent lots of time with the typical left-wing Jewish person STAN. I see a knife at their own throat and no matter what they don’t stray from the collectivist/all white Republicans are evil BS-and” the only reason they support Israel is they want us to embrace JESUS”. I do have one Jewish gym buddy(completely secular & atheist lawyer) who has rejected the left and sounds a lot like ME about politics,guns and rights. Whatever-you may need us Christians as the whole world is rapidly condemning Jews and Israel…
This is a great piece by Robert J. Avrech – “Jew Without a Gun”.
http://www.seraphicpress.com/jew-without-a-gun/
I get shivers down my spine when I read it, wondering how I would react under the same circumstances.
There are anti-gun Jews and pro-gun Jews. For example, if it wasn’t for Alan Gura — an Israeli-born Jew — there would be no Second Amendment. But the real enemy of 2A isn’t the Jews, it’s Catholics. And that starts at the very top of the Church, reaches down to every archdiocese and every Catholic politician. Biden, O’Malley, Malloy, Pelosi, Brady (‘Memba him? And her?), McCarthy . . . the list is endless.
So why do Jews get all the blame? The answer is obvious.
So Ralph why do Jews keep supporting these Catholics. The Obvious answer is not religion but secular ideology. So the question remains: Why do Jews remain loyal to an ideology that kills them every chance ot gets?
The same question can be asked of Catholics. The Romans killed them, the English killed them, the Arabs are killing them and yet they are resolutely anti-gun.
Yes, the same question can be asked of Catholics, but it’s only asked of Jews. I wonder why.
Could it be that Catholic voters don’t vote 80% Democratic regardless of how the Democrats screw them over?
No, td. It’s because Catholics are Christians and Jews are not.
You have a lot of Catholics in the suburban and rural areas that are very pro gun rights. A lot of German Catholics in my area which is solidly pro gun rights.
I can say that the United Methodist Church is really anti gun rights as are many denominations in the National Council of Churches.
I would agree that the Catholics in urban areas are anti gun rights. Jews usually are against gun rights as most of them live in or around big cities.
It’s guilt over killing Jebus.
Oh come on now. It’s not the museum’s job to do “what ifs” they’re there just to present the artifacts and preserve the history so that it is not lost. Expecting a political stance is just unreasonable.
Outta sight outta mind, people forget. Along with this many educators preach peace and the badness of firearms when they do not paint the entire picture as to how peace was obtained. My 102+ yo grandmother shakes her head in disgust when this issue is discussed.
Not all Jews are anti’s. See: http://jpfo.org/
One must abandon self-preservation to resit an enemy which is willing to abandon it to kill you.
I do not fear the unending blackness of ceasing to exist. I do not ask for a reward in heavenly paradise. I ask only to continue resting that which is evil with that which is good.
I fear death for one reason; If I am dead, I can no longer deliver penance to the aggressors. I fear becoming useless as a corpse. I fear being unable to any longer do what is right.
I want rest, I crave rest, but I deny it to myself. Because I must. Those who can, must.
Tho it be frail, does the arrow fear it’s target? It’s not about me.
Eh, I will settle for the city of God as described in Revelation or Valhalla. The 72 virgins will probably get to be too much work.
Mohammed was an illiterate pervert and got that wrong. It’s 72 VIRGINIANS jihadis have waiting for them, most of them armed with whips.
So a guy goes to the Holocaust Museum and doesn’t see a plaque anywhere that says “Had these Jews been armed, this wouldn’t have happened.”
Ok? I don’t see the logical point of this article.
Should there be a big banner somewhere in the Holocaust Museum that says “These poor guys didn’t have the 2a, didn’t molon labe, and now they’re all dead.” ??
What purpose would that serve. What fantasy are you living in that you would expect such an “exhibit” in a museum of any sort?
I have a 1919A4, made in Israel.
It’s not a sought-after collectors item because 1919A4s made in Israel are common.
The fact that is has “Never Again” crudely engraved on it in Hebrew, is why I have it. That it wasn’t fake because the person who sold the kit to me didn’t even know it was there, it was too encrusted in dirt ad rust. I paid less than $100 for it.
The poetic justice of it almost makes me vomit…
Actually, there were armed Jews. There’s a movie called Defiance that tells the story, but basically they lived in the woods in Eastern Europe during the war and were more or less left along. Because they were armed and determined.
Also, being Jewish, I can tell you that not all Jews favor civilian disarmament. This one doesn’t. ‘Never again’ means ‘never again.’ Making the generalization that Jews support is civilian disarmament is kinda dumb. There are people on both sides, as there always are. Also, don’t forget that the Holocaust Museum is in DC. That probably has more to do with the lack of discussion about arms than the fact that some Jews don’t believe in weapons.
Who paid for it? Let me guess.
Unlike typical museums, which present history for the sake of history, or art for the sake of art, the Holocaust Museum in DC specifically has a theme of presenting history so that this particular history shall never be repeated. In that sense, they have failed, in my opinion.
When I go to a rally there is usually a (too small) contingent of Jews there, usually just one family.
I tell them I am glad that they, at least, understand.
I like TTAG & I understand that it/they strive to provide different views on different topics – but the arms control that the Nazi’s imposed is weak testament at best to what happens to a disarmed populace.
Most Germans did not own guns and I would be willing to bet money that German Jews owned even fewer prior to gun control. Yeah, I understand that its the armed few that give you the most resistance but things had to get way too bad bad before even a few Jews would resist. Free men arm up or continue to stay armed when faced with extermination . . . even if the law says otherwise.
For the most part the Jews did not do that. Most were not armed when it was not legal to do such even given all the history of anti-semitism prior to the 1930’s. Heck – many Jews fled to Germany from elsewhere in Europe because of pomgroms and purges. Nazi arms control was the nail in the coffin so to speak. That nail came after a decade or more of watching said coffin being built.
<PRO GUN JEW AND COMBAT VET
Thank you, for both!
What about your mom and dad ?
I just did that before someone else did so I could say , it doesn’t matter , thanks and spread the word brother . We need everyone to be pro 2nd A .
I hope you are a JEW and not just Jewish , but what ever your faith , stay alert and prepared .
God bless soldier .
It’s a motto of the post WWII Jews to say “Never Again” and yet they continue to actively support civilian disarmament,
I can think of a few other groups that are usually pro gun control that have not had a great past in the old country.
As with so many other things, we tend to generalize. I am a well armed Jew and of my three closest, Jewish friends, two are well armed. More Jews are armed then you think. The other generalization is that the Jews did not have the arms/will to fight back against the Nazis. My grandfather was part of a large group of Jewish resistance fighters in Slovakia. He and other fought with all their might and because of his (and my grandmother’s) tenacity, I able to type this comment on a webpage in 2015. Without their fighting back I would not exist. And to all you deniers out there … Go F$&k yourself.
TCTC,
“More Jews are armed then you think.”
Not enough, IMHO. Although I’m guessing, I was the only person who carried at my [old] synagogue. 3 other people said that they were pro-gun, but they didn’t have any guns of their own. (Jewish wives, maybe?)
A (seemingly pointless) “security” system was instituted. So, if you were late to a service and the door was locked, you had to ring a bell to be admitted.
When the High Holy Day services were approaching last fall, I offered to the president to stand guard with my rifle. He assumed [incorrectly] that I was joking. Nope. Needless to say, my offer was declined. Courteously.
Oh yeah, we can lock the door and hide, but we can’t actually take any positive steps to protect ourselves. So, I just CC’d to look out for me and mine. Sorry, Charlie.
It gets better than that Rick. I worked for a security company. A synagogue was vandalised, swastikas etc, and I was dispatched to watch over the people attending the next services after this.
Unarmed and alone. Just me and my whistle. Not for the first time I said “screw this” and stashed my .38 inside my spiffy security guy coat.
And the museum owes prime space to the achievement of those heroes that had the will and found the means to resist. Instead, it all but ignores them. Apparently, being a victim is more palatable than taking responsibility for one’s life.
There’s more money/sympathy/acceptance in victimhood.
“The museum organizers have simply chosen not to present or even mention that none of the unspeakable atrocities would have happened had the people to be exterminated been armed. And, in many cases, had they had been disarmed by legal government policies.”
I hate this rhetoric. There were approximately 500,000 jews out of a population of 67M Germans. The Wehrmacht had more men fighting in Stalingrad. Even if every single jew was an 18-22 year old male and heavily armed they would still have been exterminated, they just might have been able to take a few more SS bastards with them. Out of the population of 500,000 jews their were probablly 50,000 fighting age men, so you’re implying that 50,000 men would be able to stop an army that killed 10M heavily armed Russians, I don’t think so. Small arms for the jews would have been a speed bump on the road to extermination.
Every time a Jew put down anyone in the German military, it would have gone toward disproving the very existence of any “master race”, maybe people would have woken up sooner.
Pete. one very important reason the germans killed so many russians was inept and absolutely ruthless leadership amongst the russians. Millions of dead russians meant nothing to them. Sacrificing their own caused them no discomfort at all.
As for 50 thousand fighting aged jews. A minority race facing extermination can’t accept only fit, military aged males. That way lies quick defeat. They must use all their resources. Young, old, male, female.
And I believe they would have lost, at least in germany. But the germans would have paid a much greater price and it was attrition that destroyed germany as much as any factor in ww2. If you face death anyway, make your killers pay a blood price.
The “elite” Jews that want gun control are hypocrites because they have HIRED guns to protect them.
I am simply astounded by the ignorant posts and the article itself we are commenting on. I’m the son of an immigrant from British Palestine, who’s parents fled the Nazis in Eastern Europe. How does anyone, in their right mind, think that Jews, spread over every country could have saved themselves if only they had been armed? The armies of France, Belgium, Denmark, etc., etc. were armed, trained better and had better weapons than the general populace. These countries were no match for Germany. So in terms of the Jews saving themselves by being armed is laughable. Arm everyone in Texas with sidearms, automatic rifles, Uzis, etc., and see how well they fare against the American military.
So many posts on TTAG regarding who’s to blame about various instances of gun violence, blame the victim for not being armed to protect themselves. Go ahead and blame the Jews for the Holocaust. It’s has to be the victim’s fault, not the person with the gun and the power.
David. I do not blame the victim. But the victim has a moral obligation to make the aggressor’s job as tough as possible.
Had the jews been armed and willing to fight would they have still suffered 6 million dead? Most likely. But how many more nazi soldiers needed to fight elsewhere would have been killed, injured or tied down by a europe full of armed and willing jews?
Such massive resistance might even have shortened the war.
+1
Texas would kick the American military’s ass. First off, a lot of the military is Texans, the guy who orders an attack on Texas would not see the sun set. Next, it is a very large space to conquer, as anyone who has tried to drive from El Paso to Louisiana in one day can tell you, supply lines will get very long and very vulnerable. No one would authorize the use of the Air Force, because when you put a pilot in an aircraft and allow him to take off, he can put his bombs wherever he damn well pleases and you can’t stop him. Including on the base he just launched from. Texans outnumber the military by, what, ten to one? Twenty? IOW, that was a stupid statement.
I think you are incorrect. Even if the Jews had been armed the NAZIs would have killed them just the same. The NAZI war machine was formidable. It took the combined might of the Allied nations to stop them. With that said it would clearly have been a little more difficult had the Jews been armed, and more importantly I would much rather go out in a gunfight than a gas chamber.
Sorry that I’m late to the party.
The Holocaust Museum in Israel doesn’t make any mention of the Nazi Firearms Act of 1938 either. How not only were all the “little people” disarmed, that a [theoretical] means was included to obtain a permit, AND that Jews were NOT allowed to apply. THAT was a line that was on the posters that went up. (I wish that I still had that book.)
Zelman and Co at JPFO also uncovered that Senator Dodd (D-CT) had obtained an original copy of the law in German (which was translated by the Library of Congress) and that he used points and phrases from that to craft our favorite anti-rights law of 1968 (GCA 1968).
I know that I feel better now. /sarc
The electricity went off many times when I was a kid growing up in Sacramento California. The TV and news- papers were full of stories of black panther party for self -defense activities both good and bad. And the communist New World Liberation Front that had set off over 40 bombs destroying electrical power sub -stations all oven northern California and other targets as well. They also tried to kill Mayor Diane Feinstein of San Francisco on more than one occasion.
Now this rich white Jewish crime victim wants take guns away from all people except her private armed security and the government security detail at her senate office. She is the enemy of freedom. Her Jewish family crime victim past means nothing to me. She and others use it as an excuse to deny gun civil right to American law abiding citizens. She is not the only one. Many crime victims say you have to give up your civil rights to make them feel better.
I have chosen not to visit the museum. I had many opportunities. The lack of gun control law history was only one of my reasons. I learned a lot when I joined the JPFO back in 1994. The big business of the holocaust history machine does not have on its list of priorities the gun control used to disarm Jewish people and others in Europe. Radio talk show host micheal savage has called it “Holocaust Incorporated”. I think he is correct.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2012/12/19/flashback-dianne-feinstein-s-own-conceal-carry-permit-story/
New World Liberation Front (NWLF) – 1977 article
http://radicalarchives.org/2010/02/06/nwlf-1977/
Your points about Jewish disarmament are well taken, but it is not within a museum’s purview to speculate on what might have been (not a good museum at least).
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