Hunters in the four-or-so states with allowances specific to straight-walled cartridges are buying enough rifles and ammo to keep the industry pumping out new product to serve this niche! The newest straight-walled entrant — and not even the first this year! — is the 400 Legend. As the name implies, it’s a scaled-up 350 Legend from Winchester, and it’s already available in over a dozen Savage Arms rifles. Savage’s press release follows . . .
Savage Arms® Announces New 400 Legend in Over a Dozen Models
WESTFIELD, Massachusetts – May 8, 2023 – Savage Arms is proud to partner with Winchester® Ammunition to bring deer hunters several rifles chambered in 400 Legend in time for 2023 hunting seasons. The new hard-hitting, yet mildly recoiling, caliber means new opportunities for deer hunters across the country. Savage will launch the 400 Legend in the 110 Apex Hunter XP, 110 Hog Hunter and Axis II XP—but will also chamber it in another 11 models in 2023.
Straight-walled cartridges, and especially the 400 Legend’s predecessor the 350 Legend, were born for states like Ohio and Michigan. The premise being bring modern projectiles and cartridge technologies to areas, states and hunters originally limited to shotgun slug or historically limited rifle caliber options. Due to the popularity of these cartridges that has been driven by performance—straight-wall options have gained traction outside of traditional shotgun slug areas as well. The 400 Legend will no doubt continue this legacy and Savage has responded by adding it to so many rifles in its lineup.
“Savage is dedicated to chambering the best calibers for hunters and shooters,” said Beth Shimanski, Director of Marketing at Savage Arms. “The 400 Legend brings ballistic advances and advantages–and when combined with our extensive rifle lineup–the benefits only increase. Deer hunters are in for a treat this fall as we’ll have 14 options available in plenty of time for this season.”
The numbers behind the 400 Legend are impressive. This straight-walled cartridge offers 100% more energy than a 12 gauge slug with 55% less felt recoil. When compared to its rifle counterparts and predecessors, the 400 Legend brings the same amount of energy as the 450 Bushmaster, with a reduction in felt recoil of 20%. Finally—the 400 Legend offers 25% more energy than the 350 Legend for more penetration and improved terminal ballistics.
More information on the full lineup of Savage rifles chambered in 400 Legend, as well as when they will be available, can be found at www.savagearms.com. Those interested in learning more about the cartridge, its development and the full story behind it all, can go to www.winchester.com.
About Savage
Headquartered in Westfield, Massachusetts, Savage has been producing firearms for more than 125 years. Savage is one of the world’s largest manufacturers of hunting, competition and targeting shooting centerfire and rimfire rifles, and shotguns. Their firearms are best known for accuracy, performance and innovation. The entrepreneurial spirit that originally defined the company is still evident in its ongoing focus on continuous innovation, craftsmanship, quality and service. Learn more at www.savagearms.com.
Oh well thank god.
I didn’t know how long I would live without another new whiz bang cartridge?
Say winchester, How about letting loose with some large pistol primers? I’d be in for two five thousand round sleeves If I didn’t have to sell a kidney for them.
I think there are too many offerings as well, but sometimes the best ones come out after a few previous attempts. I’m curious about this:
“The numbers behind the 400 Legend are impressive. This straight-walled cartridge offers 100% more energy than a 12 gauge slug with 55% less felt recoil. When compared to its rifle counterparts and predecessors, the 400 Legend brings the same amount of energy as the 450 Bushmaster, with a reduction in felt recoil of 20%.”
Double the kinetic energy dump potential of a 12-ga slug?? Would an AR upper fit onto a -15 lower, or would a -10 be needed? I’ve been seriously pondering a .50 Beowulf upper for a while, but have been pausing because the 450 Bushmaster looks good, too. Now a .400 Legend with (if I’m understanding the stats correctly) even more energy than the Beowulf?
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Hahaha, you young folks crack me up! Check out the Winchester .401SL, intro-ed in 1910 in the Model 1910 semiauto w 10 rd detachable box magazine…
Or the 351SL, intro-ed in 1905.
Also available in full auto, iirc…
Stupid crap like that is why nobody likes you, PG.
Just big enough to make experimenting with 40sw/10mm bullets less than advisable ah well still neat to see.
How so?
Similar to 9mm to 357 but less so probably not an issue with lead but accuracy and potentially velocity could be negatively impacted.
What’s the motivation / logic behind “straight wall only” cartridges laws for deer hunting?
I’ve never understood it.
They have larger bullets, make bigger holes and are more likely to to dispatch the deer with a single shot?
Previous loadings limited it to magnum handgun and some older black powder related cartridges (45-70 etc) which in theory limited how far the round could travel (similar logic to shotgun only seasons). Probably also a backdoor kind of no scary black rifles but that would likely vary based on the state in question. Or my best guess anyway.
In Iowa at least, they allow those “black scary rifles” in 350, 450 and now 360 and 400 for in the field hunting. This has been the rules for at least the last 6 seasons of deer hunting, but liberals were up in arms just this year when they found out “black scary rifles” were running around in the corn and bean fields. “Black scary rifles” have been legal for coyote and other varmints for many years.
Could go for the old semi auto ban for hunting like I used to see.
The explanation has two components, one historical and one new.
The historical component:
Some states had decided that population density in some regions was too great to safely allow “traditional” rifle cartridges (such as .308 Winchester) for white-tailed deer hunting. So they only allowed shotguns and muzzleloaders in those regions with denser population. (Rifles could shoot well out to 600 yards and endanger people in their homes–and historical shotgun slugs and muzzleloader balls/conicals would not travel much beyond 70 yards and rarely reach someone’s home.)
The recent component:
Hunter numbers have been steadily declining for decades and wildlife agencies in those states with “shotgun/muzzleloader only” zones wanted to entice more people to take up hunting as well as enticing aging hunters to continue hunting. Sensing that a lot of potential new hunters (and even aging hunters) reject shotgun slug recoil and muzzleloader hassles, those wildlife agencies pushed their state legislatures to allow “straight-wall cartridges” with characteristics which are much more favorable to aging hunters as well as potential new hunters–while still limiting range and thus reducing the chances of errant shots hitting someone’s home.
Thus, the recent “straight-wall cartridge” blitz.
For reference the only widely available straight-wall cartridges with potential ranges beyond shotgun slugs, initially, were the handgun calibers .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum, and .454 Casull along with the .450 Bushmaster rifle cartridge. However, .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum–even out of rifles–are typically lacking beyond 100 yards. And while .450 Bushmaster is reliable out to 200 yards, it does recoil a bit. Thus, cartridge and/or firearm companies developed new calibers which meet the “straight-wall cartridge” requirements AND increase range out to about 200 yards AND reduce recoil compared to .450 Bushmaster.
“The explanation has two components…”
You’re correct in principle, but not in all the numbers.
A 50 cal muzzleloader shooting a patched round ball has an effective range of around 100 yards, maybe adding 25 if in the hands of an experienced shooter with good conditions. Velocity and energy is shed quickly, but shooting conicals can extend that a bit. Sabot rounds even more so. The travel distance of the ball is likely less than a mile, but I can’t confirm that.
Rifles shooting bottlenecked rifle cartridges, like the 308 you mentioned, can kill deer farther away than the average hunter can accurately shoot, and the bullet travel distance is measured in miles. These are not legal in Ohio for deer hunting.
Before allowing any centerfire rifles, Ohio began allowing deer hunters to use handguns in a few specific calibers. Hunter interest went through the roof, and shooting accident numbers never really increased by any significant amount as a result, so they expanded the options over time, to include more calibers, and then to include rifles in handgun calibers, finally settling on straight walled cartridges of at least 357 caliber. This includes cartridges from 357 magnum up to things like 50 caliber out of a minimum 5″ barrel, as long as it isn’t a bottlenecked brass. Type of handgun or rifle is not regulated, although the total number of cartridges in the chamber and magazine is limited to 3. That applies to rifles, not sure about handguns.
Interesting note. If a landowner has a depredation permit, say a guy with an apple orchard, there are very few restrictions beyond what is listed specifically on the permit. This is not considered “hunting” in the law, but normal hunting regulations do apply during a regular hunting season. The orchard guy may be allowed to shoot deer at night with a 30-06 in the summer, for example, with a depredation permit.
The 450 BM really is more gun than is needed to kill deer, with the 350 Legend probably being the best compromise of caliber, power, trajectory, recoil, availability, etc. for typical Ohio deer hunting. I prefer the 357 Max, but other than a few boutique ammo makers, it’s a handloading proposition these days. I’m not sure any firearm manufacturers offer it any more, either. This new 400 Legend is trying to ride the coattails of the 350, and may have some success, but in Ohio it will mostly be from novelty sales. Having slightly different bore diameters for caliber have knocked some of the sheen off the 350 and 450, and will the 400 as well.
hawkeye,
My numbers were “typical” numbers applicable to the masses and common hunting scenarios–and are accurate as such.
Is it possible to launch projectiles from all of those platforms much farther than the distances I listed. Of course. Is it possible to shoot deer well beyond 70 yards with the shotguns and muzzleloaders of yesteryear? Certainly. Were hunters typically shooting deer with shotguns and muzzleloaders at 100+ yards roughly (very roughly) 70 years ago when those states passed their laws? Not from what I have heard and read.
At any rate, the objective of recent “straight-wall cartridge” initiatives is to maximize the number of hunters–and the mechanism which underpins that is reducing recoil AND roughly tripling effective range (compared to common legacy shotgun/muzzleloader platforms) for the masses.
Your phrase “…historical shotgun slugs and muzzleloader balls/conicals would not travel much beyond 70 yards…” caught my eye as suggesting that projectiles from these older firearms were safer because their “travel” distance wasn’t much more than 70 yards. There’s a difference between effective range and travel distance. They travel a whole lot farther than 70 yards, and that was my point. Aside from that, your other points are correct, and I was simply expanding on them.
The idea is that straight wall cartridges are short range with lousy ballistic coefficients, and thus are “safer” in more built up, populous areas.
When the laws were passed, your options were 12-ga slug, or .44 Mag, or a hot loaded .45 Colt.
These new cartridges are basically “loophole” cartridges, designed for 2 1/2 states with these laws. So far, it’s apparently been enough of a success to make it worth the development effort. However, these 3 states could always change the laws (either by closing the loophole with a cartridge length or velocity requirement, or eliminating the requirement in which case everyone just buys a 30-06 like in normal states)
“What’s the motivation / logic behind “straight wall only” cartridges laws for deer hunting?”
Something I wonder is –
Could those laws be challenged under the new ‘Bruen’ standard?
That’s not a flippant question, folks…
not an infringement upon what you can own. you’re getting into steel shot only territory.
Stats from Winchester’s site:
400 Legend:
muzzle 2250 2416
50 2056 2018 1.2
100 1872 1673 1.8
150 1700 1379 0
200 1540 1132 -4.9
300 1270 770 -26.4
260gr 450 Bushmaster:
muzzle 2110 2570 -1.5
50 0.4
100 1727 1722 0 5.2
200 1403 1136 -10.3 0
300 1163 780 -38.5 -23
Hornady Black 450 Bushmaster 250gr:
muzzle 2200 2686 -2
100 1835 1868 4.1
200 1515 1274 0
300 1255 874 -19.3
If I’m looking for stopping power I think I know where I’d wind up with this, it’s the 250gr 450 Bushmaster.
350 Legend 170gr Hornady FTX:
muzzle 2200 1827 -1.5
100 1843 1281 4.5
200 1529 882 0
300 1271 609 -19.4
What would be curious now is to see the recoil #s from all of these. I’m thinking the 350 Legend has an argument for recoil sensitive shooters vs a 450, but this? It seems like a question in search of an answer.
Also as a caster and reloader I can squeeze down 458 bullets for a 450BM (I’ve done jacketed ones too) or use 45LC/454 Casull bullets as well. What are you going to use for a 400 Legend, 40 S&W bullets?
If this gets popular I could see the 38-40 being the biggest beneficiary because they’ll get some new bullet styles.
Actually, looking in my Lyman book bullets from a 40-65 or 40-70 would be neat with this case potentially. They make some stupid heavy bullets in the 400gr category and 40-65 data may be a good start with reduced charges.
.4005 or 10.173 close but could cause issues.
Cast 220 gr .401 dia
One day I will need to mess around with cast lead it does seem to open up options.
A sizer would take care of that no problem. As said, I’ve done jacketed .458 bullets down to .452. You’ll probably get more inconsistency in varying the casting temperature.
“What would be curious now is to see the recoil #s from all of these. I’m thinking the 350 Legend has an argument for recoil sensitive shooters vs a 450, but this?”
A related question, might .400 Legend be an option for Ruger Super Redhawk hunters looking for a less savage ‘bite’ than .44 mag?
My wrists aren’t exactly getting younger… 🙁
Geoff,
I doubt that .400 Legend developers were thinking of .44 Magnum revolver aging shooters looking for a reduced recoil hunting platform.
A full-size revolver chambered in .44 Magnum (e.g. weighs at least 54 ounces) does not produce savage recoil with “middle-of-the-road” Magnum loads. And if an aging hunter wanted to reduce recoil further, he/she could port the barrel on their full-size revolver. I dare say that even stout Magnum loads do not produce objectionable recoil out of full-size revolvers.
To put all this in perspective, I coached** two young women (who both were average height and fitness and weighed about 120 pounds) to shoot a full-size .44 Magnum revolver with “middle-of-the-road” Magnum loads pushing 240 grain bullets. Both of them enjoyed it and shot at least one, if not two full cylinders. And both of them left the shooting range wanting to shoot .44 Magnum again.
If those two young women enjoyed shooting .44 Magnum, the overwhelming majority of aging hunters should be in the same boat.
** My coaching consisted of nothing more than showing them proper grip and stance and allowing their arms to rise up a bit (albeit somewhat slowly) with recoil. That last tidbit–allowing their arms to rise up a bit with recoil–is akin to “follow through” with respect to many sports.
Geoff, you asked, “Might .400 Legend be an option for Ruger Super Redhawk hunters looking for a less savage ‘bite’ than .44 mag?”
No, the .400 Legend is only a “low-recoil” option compared to .450 Bushmaster or 12 gauge shotgun. The .400 Legend has far more recoil than the .44 Magnum. According to Winchester (who created both cartridges), the .400 Legend has the same recoil as .308 Winchester, and I wouldn’t exactly call .308 Winchester handguns “low recoil,” would you?
Shooting .400 Legend through a handgun would be like shooting .308 Winchester in a handgun. Maybe it’s doable in an AR-15 “handgun” with a 15″ barrel and a pistol brace, but you sure wouldn’t want to do it in a Redhawk!
I do not understand the whole straight wall cartridge thing. A long time ago I worked along side an E-6 that knew a little bit about shooting. He was from Ohio. He would sit in his Dodge van and load ammunition for his varmint rifles. He had a reloading bench set up in the back. He thought it was crazy that I could hunt deer with a centerfire rifle. Too dangerous, he said. He’s loading 25-06 to shoot ground hogs.
High population density state problems, don’t worry you guys are getting there but hopefully will not get as silly with the hunting restrictions.
Wow that sounds like a real clown show there. I don’t know that I’d want him near a firearm.
At least a deer may stop a 25-06 with the right loading, that groundhog would just well, not.
I used a .257 Weatherby for both ground hogs and deer. One rifle, one cartridge. Great fun when zeroed at 300 yds.
Light bullets are very safe at max high speed in 2506, 243, etc, no ricochets or pass thru. First thing they hit destroys the bullet.
Load em too hot, the air will vaporize them.
@gadsden
.401SL, from 1910 AD.
215 gr bullet 2250, offered in semiauto, detachable mag Model 1910 Win.
The more things change…
Got a .45 Raptor but can’t use it for hunting unless I go out of state. It’s a rimless straight-wall .460 S&W Magnum.
Had to look that one up and holy crap……….have you tried reloading for lighter copper solids just to see what they could do?
Have you tried finding large rifle magnum primers? lol
I stick with 300gr Hornady XTP Mags for the most part, though I do have a couple boxes of some 250gr XTP in case of emergency.
Lol yeah but easier than large pistol primers and about as bad as small magnum pistol so not common but does come up often enough.
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Geoff, you asked, “Might .400 Legend be an option for Ruger Super Redhawk hunters looking for a less savage ‘bite’ than .44 mag?”
No, the .400 Legend is only a “low-recoil” option compared to .450 Bushmaster or 12 gauge shotgun. The .400 Legend has far more recoil than the .44 Magnum. According to Winchester (who created both cartridges), the .400 Legend has the same recoil as .308 Winchester, and I wouldn’t exactly call .308 Winchester handguns “low recoil,” would you?
Shooting .400 Legend through a handgun would be like shooting .308 Winchester in a handgun. Maybe it’s doable in an AR-15 “handgun” with a 15″ barrel and a pistol brace, but you sure wouldn’t want to do it in a Redhawk!
“This straight-walled cartridge offers 100% more energy than a 12 gauge slug with 55% less felt recoil.”
Can someone explain this BS to me?
There is no way it has 100% more, or twice as much, energy as a 12 gauge slug!
Maybe a 100% of the energy, but definitely not more.
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