These [gun control] groups and even scholars studying gun violence refer to Stand Your Ground (SYG) laws as “shoot first” laws, short for “shoot first and ask questions later.” As a gun scholar, gun owner and opponent of gun violence, I fear that equating SYG with the legal right to “shoot first” could unintentionally mislead people into thinking that self-defense laws truly give them a blanket license to kill with impunity.

They do not.

Self-defense laws actually place significant limits on the ability of individuals to use lethal force in self-defense lawfully. Whether people fully understand those limitations is an empirical question, but critics should drop the language of “shoot first” in referring to these laws. Instead, in the interest of public safety, why not educate people on the limited range of behaviors they in fact allow? …

Reasonableness, of course, is determined in the criminal justice system, which is marred by racial inequality. But the flawed application of law and a flawed law are not the same. People of goodwill can disagree about whether Stand Your Ground laws are, on balance, good or bad. But both gun owners and non-owners must understand what self-defense laws actually allow and prohibit — politically charged rhetoric like “shoot first” is harmful.

Stand Your Ground does not allow anyone to “shoot first and ask questions later.” Not within the law, at least. Please stop saying it does.

RELATED ARTICLESMORE FROM AUTHOR

155 COMMENTS

  2. Stand your ground laws have traditionally been enforced according to the degree of racism. In 5 incidents this week home owners gunned down innocent people and either screamed castle doctrine or stand your ground rights.

    If you are white and shoot a black boy who only knocked on your door you probably will get off Scott free. If your black and shoot a white guy you will probably be executed.

    Most civilized countries have outlawed stand your ground laws as well as the castle doctrine as too often its an excuse to get away with cold blooded murder.

    White racists will tell you the only good Ngr is a dead Ngr and laugh while telling it.
    Many white racists when they get mad at their white neighbors will scream “Piss me off one more time and I will sell my house to the Ngr’s. These are the people who prove that the castle doctrine and the stand your ground laws should be at the very least be under very strict restrictions and it proves that Constitutional Carry promotes ignorance of the law and enhances too many unnecessary shootings.

    And if the Republicans have not promoted enough nonsense, this week in Texas they introduced legislation to turn Texas into a full blow Christian Caliphate with mandatory teaching of the Christian 10 Commandments sure to outrage many other non Christian religions in the U.S.

    And the jackbooted Governor of Alabama Gov. Kay Ivey (She Wolf of the SS) on Friday announced she replaced her director of early childhood education over the use of a teacher training book, written by a nationally recognized education group. The training book promoted “equality” of all children in school including LGBT children who the Far Right want to liquidate in gas chambers.

      • At least this time, it’s the real bigoted, racist ‘dacian’, not the imitation… 🙁

        • Yep now who wants to tell him nonwhites tend to be the ones who use stand your ground protection the most?

    • Actually the laws don’t go far enough. You should be able to kill white people waving rainbow Flags, when they steal, smash, break into and or destroy private property. You should be able to shoot them, anytime, when they’re violating private property, no questions asked.

      • Do the loot get the shoot? Need to work on message delivery but generally agree especially when arson gets involved.

      • Someone actually used the Biden technique on me and a few other yoots up to no good one Halloween night. It worked. Of course, we clearly weren’t a threat to anyone. We were doing dumb teenager stuff.

      • “You should be able to kill white people waving Flags, when they steal, smash, break into and or destroy private property“

        If one followed your suggested course of action, there would’ve been well over 1000 dead insurrectionists on January 6.

        • There weren’t any insurrectionists; no one has been charged nor convicted of such. There were a bunch of grandmothers who walked between the velvet ropes after Capitol police let them in, but they were only charged with trespass, disorderly conduct, and parading. For walking through the Rotunda of the People’s House.

          But you know this; you just pretend not to.

        • “That wasn’t private property“

          So it’s OK to steal, smash, break into and or destroy property as long as it belongs to the People?
          Yeah, that seems patriotic enough…

          “There weren’t any insurrectionists; no one has been charged nor convicted of such“

          Perhaps you should investigate the meaning of the term ‘seditious conspiracy’:

          “Title 18-CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
          PART I-CRIMES
          CHAPTER 115-TREASON, SEDITION, AND SUBVERSIVE ACTIVITIES
          §2384. Seditious conspiracy
          If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both“

          “4 more Oath Keepers found guilty of seditious conspiracy tied to Jan. 6 attack
          The government has secured 10 convictions for seditious conspiracy since last year.“

          https://www.politico.com/news/2023/01/23/oath-keepers-guilty-seditious-conspiracy-jan-6-00079083

          “CHAPTER 115-TREASON, SEDITION, AND SUBVERSIVE ACTIVITIES
          §2384. Seditious conspiracy“

          That has to be clear enough to be understood even by a Trump supporter, but maybe not…

          “But you know this; you just pretend not to.”

          Now you’re posting intentional disinformation, which means that you are giving aid and comfort to those who have tried to overthrow the government of the United States.

          That’s the very definition of Treason.

        • “That has to be clear enough to be understood even by a Trump supporter, but maybe not… ”

          Assuming that I am a supporter of President Trump? If it means that I’m more intelligent than you because you quoted the incorrect statute — it’s 2383, not 2384 — I’ll take the compliment.

          §2383. Rebellion or insurrection
          Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

          I repeat: no one was charged or convicted of insurrection under Sec 2383. Period. End.

          “Now you’re posting intentional disinformation …”

          No, that’s YOUR gig, Liar49er; I could never hope to compete with you in that endeavor.

        • to miner49er

          “If one followed your suggested course of action, there would’ve been well over 1000 dead insurrectionists on January 6.”

          I’m quite comfortable having the 1000 FBI agent provocateurs and FBI informants who were caught wearing radio earpieces, being shot. They lead the smashing up of one side of the capitol building. Yes, those undercover Federal agents who were smashing windows, they should be shot dead. And I’m glad you agree with me on that.

          And thank you for acknowledging that Donald Trump’s support base is very diverse. President Trump has lots and lots of gay people supporting him. Those folks were on the other side of the building, along with all the other thousands of peaceful folks. All who calmly walked into the building. As they were let in, by the capital police who unlocked the doors.

        • “So it’s OK to steal, smash, break into and or destroy property as long as it belongs to the People?”

          I never said that, did I? Your response to Chris’s comment about private property was a comment about public property. In other words, you gave a mindless example.

        • Call it what you will, a rose by any other name will still smell as sweet, you are citing a distinction without a difference.

          And sedition is a much better descriptor for the actions of your ‘tourist’ pals:

          “to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States“

          When American citizens levy war against America, they are committing Treason, as are those who give them aid and comfort after the fact.

          Call it sedition or insurrection, either way those traitorous pieces of shit will be doing years in the federal pen.

          Good times!

        • , hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States“

          You mean like the insurrection led by the THREE State legislators in TN?… Oh wait, they get a pass two black guys and an old white lezzy, ALL Democrats… They only assaulted a couple of state cops, the House Sgt at Arms and led a violent protest onto the floor of the TN State House of Representatives “delaying the execution of a law”… “Good times” indeed…

        • Liar49er, you never quit. Even when you’ve been proven a liar, you continue to lie.

          “…you are citing a distinction without a difference. … Call it sedition or insurrection …”

          Well, which is it? It’s one or the other, not both. Your conflating two separate sections of the law is dishonest, as is your wont.

          I repeat: no one has been charged with, nor convicted of, insurrection. Your insistence on changing definitions to fit your arguments demonstrates the weakness of your position.

        • Madeline, your handler needs to help you understand the difference between state and federal.

          “the TN State House of Representatives“

          And the fact is, you conservatives are all about hiding the grooming activities and sexual assaults by your leaders:

          “NASHVILLE, Tenn. (WTVF) — A member of GOP leadership in the Tennessee House of Representatives was recently found guilty of sexually harassing at least one legislative intern, likely two, by an ethics subcommittee acting in secret, NewsChannel 5 Investigates has learned.

          About six hours after being confronted by NewsChannel 5 Investigates, Rep. Scotty Campbell gave up his seat in the Tennessee General Assembly.

          Until now, Campbell, who served as vice chair of the House Republican Caucus and who recently voted to expel three Democrats who engaged in a gun violence protest on the House floor, had suffered no previous consequences as a result of his actions“

          Yep, that’s Republican ‘leadership’.

          Attempting to muzzle the free speech of elected state representatives, while concealing sexual assaults by their own members on the young girls under their care.

          Y’all is some sick puppies.

          https://www.newschannel5.com/news/newschannel-5-investigates/revealed/revealed-gop-leader-who-voted-to-expel-tennessee-three-found-guilty-of-sexually-harassing-interns?_amp=true

        • “You mean like the insurrection led by the THREE State legislators in TN?”

          Here’s how it works. When Republicans do it, it’s the worst attack in the history of our country. When Democrats do it, it’s stunning and brave. It gets them an invite to the White House.

    • darcydodo…Your insane finger pointing rant warrants Stand Your Ground. I mean you could go over the edge and shoot up a bunch of Republicans playing baseball, etc.

      Really dodo…You look really pathetic labeling people racist while you vote for the party that owns the legacy of slavery, segregation, lynching, the kkk, Eugenics, Gun Control and other race based atrocities…With all the History Confirmed evidence against the democRat Party don’t you think the democRat Party should be singled out and held Monetarily liable for Reparations?

      BTW…It’s Scot Free…not Scott Free.

    • I didn’t read demented’s screed but am guessing. . .
      1 Used something out of context
      2 Made an unsubstantiated claim(s)
      3 Twisted facts
      4 Made some absurdly stupid comparison or claim.
      5 Used the words “civilized countries at least once.
      How’d I do?

    • “White racists will tell you the only good Ngr is a dead Ngr and laugh while telling it.”

      You certainly seem to have much first-hand knowledge on white racists.

    • “… castle doctrine and the stand your ground laws should be at the very least be under very strict restrictions …”

      They ARE under very strict restrictions.

      Castle doctrine requires that a home invader is indeed invading your home. Note that “home invader” means a human being who is capable of causing great bodily harm or murder and that human being is inside your home without your permission. The rationale is simple: a human being who is capable of causing great bodily harm or murder and has entered your home without your permission is a credible threat of great bodily harm or murder. And asking the homeowner to somehow divine the home invader’s true intentions (is it burglary which does not justify deadly force in self-defense or is it a violent attack which does justify deadly force in self-defense?) is an unacceptable risk to the homeowner.

      Stand-Your-Ground requires that you are in a place where you have a legal right to be, your attacker has communicated his/her intent to cause great bodily harm or your death (murder), your attacker’s intent is immediate and imminent, and your attacker has the capability of causing great bodily harm or death. Once again, asking the defender to somehow divine whether or not the attacker really will attack you and whether that attack really will cause great bodily harm or death is an unacceptable risk to the defender.

      Disclaimer: I am not an attorney and the above is NOT legal advice. Seek council on legally justified use of deadly force from a competent attorney in your jurisdiction.

      • uncommon,

        For a “not an attorney”, not the worst effort I’ve ever seen – I’d give it a B-.

        The whole issue with “stand your ground” arises out of the dipsh**ery of certain states (KKKalifornia one of the leaders of the pack) who invented this concept called “duty to retreat” – the doctrine that you are not permitted to exercise even what would OTHERWISE be a legitimate exercise of self-defense, so long as there was some opportunity to escape.

        Basically, you are not permitted to shoot if it is POSSIBLE to run, even if YOU are authorized to be in that location and the perp isn’t (and par for the course, this doesn’t apply to hired security guards, cops, etc., but does apply to civilians occupying property that they are otherwise completely legal to be at. You as a citizen are required to retreat from an armed mugger on a public street if it is POSSIBLE to do so.

        Castle doctrine is a little different (and interpreted differently in various states), but basically boils down to you being allowed to assume that an unauthorized intruder in your “castle” is there for evil purposes (well, DUH!!) and has the ability to carry out those purposes. Basically opens up your options for responding to the illegal intruder.

        But damn good take. The practical learning of recent events is that, almost notwithstanding the actual laws on self-defense, if you shoot a perp, there is no such thing as a “righteous shoot”. You’re likely going to get prosecuted, and MAYBE you’ll get lucky and get the jury to agree with your decision, after spending countless dollars, hours, and effort. Otherwise, you plead out.

        Not that I think the decision was wrong in any regard, but I must admit I was a little surprised that Kyle Rittenhouse was acquitted on all charges. For every Kyle who gets acquitted, I wonder how many legitimate gun owners have ended up pleading out or getting convicted of “lesser included” charges for using force to defend themselves against a REASONABLE fear of death or severe injury?

    • At least two incidents locally that were white guys shooting black guys (one after the black guy actually knocked the white guy down) ended in the white guys being convicted and sent to prison after both unsuccessfully claimed a stand your ground defense… It’s a good thing everyone knows you are factually challenged otherwise I’d have to point out (again) what a moron you are… OBTW: Thank you for once again including that useless information about all of those “civilized” countries and their ongoing suppression of the basic human right of self defense…

      • “At least two incidents locally”

        Would you be kind enough to provide specific information about these incidents you speak of, thanks!

        • “Look it up yourself… “

          Yeah, it’s bullshit just as I figured.

          “That which is asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence”

        • Yeah, it’s bullshit just as I figured.

          You suddenly forget how to search shit on the internet? Fuck you, the “evidence” is readily available… Get off you lying ass and look up FL stand your ground convictions… Not THAT complicated for an intellectual like you…

        • “Fuck you, the “evidence” is readily available… “

          You included no perpetrator names, no victim names, no city, county or state info.

          You include no prosecuting attorney name, you include no information on the charges and no information on court proceedings.

          When questioned about the info, you resort to juvenile profanity.

          Yep, it’s bullshit.

          Meanwhile, ‘4 in 1 week’ will need to change his moniker.

          Now we’re up to at least five, thank goodness no one was killed or injured in this ‘crazy Florida man with a gun’ incident.

          “A grocery delivery in Florida ended in gunfire after an 18-year-old woman and 19-year-old man reported that they mistakenly drove to the wrong house. The car was hit multiple times, but the man and woman were not injured. NBC News’ Erin McLaughlin has the story.“

          https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L2-PUs0Prfk

    • including LGBT children who the Far Right want to liquidate in gas chambers.

      This is an IGNORANT, MORONIC, STUPID, UNFOUNDED, NONSENSICAL, ABSURD, ILLOGICAL, SLANDEROUS, INANE, UNINFORMED, SENSELESS attack… I have no words…

      • Monty, why are you working so hard to conceal the murderous bigotry of conservative Republicans?

        Do you share their hatred?

        “GOP Candidate With Violent Past Has Said Gay People Are “Worthy of Death”
        Scott Esk, who has a history of domestic violence and child abuse, is competing in a primary runoff in Oklahoma.
        By Chris Walker , TRUTHOUT
        Published August 22, 2022

        “I think we would be totally in the right to do it…Ignoring as a nation things that are worthy of death is very remiss,” he said.

        When a journalist questioned him about the comments during his 2014 run for state representative, Esk doubled down, saying that the execution of gay people “was done in the Old Testament under a law that came directly from God.” In his view, this was a “totally just” command, Esk added.“

        https://truthout.org/articles/oklahoma-gop-candidate-with-violent-past-has-said-gays-are-worthy-of-death/

        “It was a bad week to be LGBTQ in Idaho. On June 11, law enforcement in northern Idaho arrested 31 men linked to the white supremacist group Patriot Front. The men are accused of planning a riot at a Pride festival in Coeur d’Alene. Coeur d’Alene Police Chief Lee White told The Washington Post June 12, “These individuals were prepared to riot.”

        Prior to that event, Pastor Joe Jones of Shield of Faith Baptist Church in Boise, Idaho called for the executions of all gay people.

        In a sermon that has since gone viral nationally, Jones told his congregation that “God told the nation that he ruled: Put them to death. Put all queers to death.”

        https://epgn.com/2022/06/15/pastors-in-idaho-and-texas-call-for-execution-of-lgbtq-people/?amp

        Yes sir, gotta love those good Christian conservatives.

        Jesus is just so proud of y’all, bless your pea-picking hearts.

        • Anyone can find two or three incidents of stupidity on ANY side of the story. How many trans folks have issued threats against non-LGBTQWXYZRP whatever people this week (or murdered recently), and don’t ask for bullshit “citations” look it up you only need to type in three words… Hint it is considerably more than you might care to admit, and you won’t need to go back 8/9 years to find it…

        • Now do muslims throwing gays off of rooftops. So called christian’s who speak out like the ones in the examples that you provided are not Christians and when they stand before Christ they will find that out.

        • Well, I have noticed it’s h0m0sexu@ls who are writing, proposing, and signing into law, anti-civil rights gun control laws.
          And it’s largely Christians who are writing and sign into law permitless carry.

        • The trans shooter in Nashville proves that all trans are murderous, mentally ill, violent people who present a clear and present danger to our society.

          See how that works? I’m just using Liar49ers method of extrapolating from one extreme example to broad-brush an entire group of people.

        • What muckraker said (the entire comment). And there’s a reason Miner focuses on Christians instead of Muslims. It’s called Christophobia. It’s funny how that word never gets used. It doesn’t fit the narrative.

          Also having to go back 9 years to quote some Republican no one has ever heard of totally means all Republicans feel the same way. “Follow the science.”

        • “Now do muslims throwing gays off of rooftops“

          Just like the Christians, they use their religion to justify murdering innocent people.

          Thanks for noting another strike against religion’s so-called ‘morality’.

          “And there’s a reason Miner focuses on Christians instead of Muslims“

          I focus on Christians because those are the ones who are attempting to take my rights and control my life, I don’t see any Muslims around here fucking with me like that.

          I think that historical record is clear, more people have been killed in the name of Jesus then in the name of Mohammed.

          Not because of any moral superiority on the part of the Islamic world, it’s just that Christians have been at it longer.

        • “That which is asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence”

          Sorry Minerva, you seem to be stuck in a loop, must have found that lost bottle of “WR”…

        • Miner if you fear christians taking agency from your life decisions you must lack a lot of power over your own life.

        • “That which is asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence”

          Ignorance is bliss.

        • Okay, Miner. Now we’re getting to the heart of the matter. I’ve always wondered why you’re so anti-Christian.

          “Just like the Christians, they use their religion to justify murdering innocent people.”

          Question 1. What “Christians” and what murder victims are you referring to? Please give specific names and references. Also, Christians are specifically forbidden to murder.

          “I focus on Christians because those are the ones who are attempting to take my rights and control my life”

          Question 2. What specific rights do you think Christians are trying to take from you?

          “I think that historical record is clear, more people have been killed in the name of Jesus then in the name of Mohammed.”

          So you despise Christians today based on your understanding of the total body count coming from Christian nations going to war versus everyone else, including Muslim nations. Is this the I hate Christians because of the Crusades excuse often used by Democrats? I’ll never forget Obama pivoting to the Crusades in order to gloss over modern Muslim extremist violence.

          Since you have a big problem with historical body counts and injustices, then how do you feel about Communism? How do you feel about the American Democrats pushing slavery and Jim Crow laws? We know how you feel. You vote Blue no matter who. You seem to be pro-communism, or at least commie-light. Why don’t you hate modern commies and Democrats based on what those people did decades and centuries ago? Unless all of this is just searching for excuses to hate a group of people you don’t agree with, also known as textbook bigotry.

        • “What “Christians” and what murder victims are you referring to?“

          Start with Adolf Hitler, who killed 6 million Jews following the direction of the Catholic Church.

          “So you despise Christians today”

          I don’t despise Christians, I despise their attempts to turn America into a theocracy.

          “How do you feel about the American Democrats pushing slavery“

          I’ve checked the newspaper and the Internet, could you help me understand which Democrats are pushing slavery today?

          “You seem to be pro-communism“

          I’ve never advocated communism, true communism probably wouldn’t work because it goes against the greed inherent in human nature.

          “What specific rights do you think Christians are trying to take from you?“

          Start with Congress passing a law requiring that the Pledge of Allegiance include a reference to the Christian God.

          And don’t try to claim that the Christian examples I have noted above aren’t ‘true Christian’s’, you might want to familiarize yourself with the ‘no true Scotsman fallacy’.

        • That’s why you hate Christians?? You think Adolf was living his best Christian life by trying to eradicate Jews?? So I was correct. You just search out for (absurd) excuses to justify your hatred of a group of people you don’t agree with, also known as textbook bigotry.

          “I’ve checked the newspaper and the Internet, could you help me understand which Democrats are pushing slavery today?”

          That’s my point, Miner. Are you playing dumb? You justify your hatred of Christians based on accounts of tribal warfare from thousands of years ago (you’re always bringing that up), and apparently Hitler pretending to be a Christian nearly a century ago.

          “Start with Congress passing a law requiring that the Pledge of Allegiance include a reference to the Christian God.”

          And what do we end with, Miner? That’s all you got? How is including a reference to God in the Pledge of Allegiance taking a right from you? Is anyone forcing you to take part in any religious tradition or ceremony? If you were a cake maker, would you think it would be wrong for the government to force you to make a cake that said, “I believe Jesus Christ is my personal Lord and Savior?”

          There is precedent for including a reference to God in the Pledge of Allegiance. The Declaration of Independence referenced God, our Creator, the Supreme Judge of the world, and divine Providence. God or the divine is referenced in every single state constitution in the Union. There isn’t a specific reference to Christianity. For instance, Yahweh isn’t mentioned. God, Creator, or the divine can mean whatever you want it to mean. No one is forcing you to take part in any religion.

          So we can put this to bed. You have no basis for being anti-Christian. You just disagree with their beliefs. You also disagree with the beliefs of Muslims, but as we’ve noted many times before, you always disparage them as an afterthought when you’re called on your specific anti-Christian bigotry. I think I understand where at least some of this is coming from. The Left is very anti-Christian. You’re as partisan as they come. Muslims are used by the Left as political pawns in the same way they like to use other identity groups. As our country has become more and more political, I’ve noticed a sharp increase in the hatred and intolerance of the demographics that typically vote against Democrats. It’s so sad that people get caught up in that nonsense.

          P.S. By saying commie-light, I meant pro-so_shall_ism. I know that’s popular on the Left, but maybe you don’t agree with so_shall_ism?

        • COOL STORY, BRO!!!

          Now do Raphael Warnock. You are a propagandist @$$clown.

          How can you tell when MajorLiar is lying?? He posts something.

        • Minerva: “Yes sir, gotta love those good Christian conservatives.”

          LGBT activist threatens anyone who would try to keep him out of women’s bathrooms or protect their kids: ‘It will be the last mistake you ever make’… Yeah, gotta love THOSE “peaceful” tolerant individuals and their militant “incels” out there shooting up Christian schools and killing children…

          “It was a bad week to be LGBTQ in Idaho. On June 11, law enforcement in northern Idaho arrested 31 men linked to the white supremacist group Patriot Front.”

          Sounds to me like it was a bad week for 31 non-LGBTQRSHMCZ MEN in Idaho, since THEY were the ones arrested… Hitting that bottle a little too hard?

    • “Everybody knows ngr’s ain’t got no money to buy a house“

      Yep, that’s just how racism works.

      Keep them out of good paying jobs, then complain about their lack of financial success.

      Redline them out of purchasing the nice properties, then complain about the poor condition of their housing.

      Push their children into underfunded schools with incompetent teachers, then complain about their lack of academic success.

      Keep your boot on their neck in immoral biblical slavery for 250 years here in America, then complain that they “ain’t got no money to buy a house”.

      Sad.

    • “Stand your ground laws have traditionally been enforced according to the degree of racism.”

      My racism towards those that want to harm my family and friends is off the charts.
      Hatred is a good substitute for racism right?
      Fuck you dacian you seriously tired bitch.

    • dacian the demented dipshit,

      And for exactly WHICH of the shooters, even if they DID assert these defenses (pro tip: They didn’t, those are legal defenses which are only asserted in an actual criminal trial, you complete idiot) have been exonerated. Yes, the events cited, based on EXISTING PRESS COVERAGE, sound sketch. Now, let’s see what DAs, judges, juries have to say about it, eh?

      Or is that all too “due process” for you?

  3. This should be required reading for our new troll “4 Times in 1 Week.”

    But I’ll wager that the facts don’t really matter to him.

      • More likely paid astroturfers look for a similar layout of that comment set amongst various social media for repeats. Saw it constantly for those “if I only got the shot” laments when they weren’t getting the uptake of boosters they wanted to see about a year and a half ago.

      • “4 Times is just a renamed Miner69er.“

        Johnny Leblanc is just a renamed George Wallace.

        “More likely paid astroturfers”

        Hilarious, this entire TTAG website is Astroturf by the gun industry.

    • “However, Muslim historian Firistha (b. 1570) wrote (in either Tarikh-i Firishta or the Gulshan-i Ibrahim) that Muslims slaughtered over 400 million Hindus up to the peak of Islamic rule of India“

      Yeah, that’s certainly a credible statistic, compiled with rigorous academic standards…

  4. They believe it because that’s how they would behave. Over and over they’ve demonstrated that they will assault and kill anyone they have even the slightest disagreement with.

    Of course the “waddabout” will be the geriatric dementia patients who pulled a Biden and shot through their front doors. Okay, so a twenty something lefty is comparable in capacity of self control as an 80 year old paranoid dementia patient. Checks out.

  5. I recently asked an acquaintance “Could you shoot someone who was breaking into your house?”. He answered, “I don’t know”.

    So, I said to him, “You need to run scenarios, rehearse it in your head, over and over. The before, the during, and the after. You cannot wait until it happens to make your decision. Owning a gun is NOT being prepared. It is only a preparedness tool; it is not preparation.”

    He said he had not given it much thought. So, we talked about training, also.

    I was amazed (I would say flabbergasted but I don’t really know what ‘flabber’ is and I don’t know what ‘gasted’ looks like) that someone would purchase a firearm for home defense and never give thought as to how and when to use it.

    Dumb bunny.

    • Ever shoot someone breaking into your home LS? You can run all sorts of scenario’s in your head but unless one experience’s it you really don’t know. Little old ladies(& old men) with no training come through in the clutch all the time🙄

      • FWW,

        I have never had to and hope I never will have to. Still, mental preparedness and training seem a better approach than just ‘winging it’s when the bad thing happens.

    • LifeSavor,

      I recommend a brief review of scenarios for three simple reasons:

      1) There truly are situations where a person who has absolutely ZERO malicious intent makes an honest mistake and ends up inside your home. Regardless of laws, it would be unjust and just plain awful to use deadly force on such a person.

      2) No matter how cut-and-dry a home invasion seems to be, there is always a chance that your prosecutor jams you up anyway, either because he/she does not buy into your self-defense claim or because investigators discover something else which is not related at all to the home invasion. Driving away your home invader without stabbing, clubbing, punching, or shooting him/her greatly diminishes your risk of your local prosecutor running amok.

      3) No matter how cut-and-dry a home invasion seems to be–and even if your prosecutor leaves you alone–there are still some serious potential costs if you apply deadly force to your home invader. For one, you could be racked with guilt even though you were totally and truly justified. Second, there could be significant restoration/repair costs to your home. Once again, driving away your home invader without applying deadly force eliminates those potential costs.

      • LifeSavor,

        1. Umm, quick question – how, EXACTLY, does a person with zero evil intent enter a closed (often locked) house which is NOT THEIRS??? Inquiring minds want to know. A stupid, drunk person illegally enters a dwelling other than theirs, and shoots the rightful occupant? Totes cool, ’cause they didn’t go in intending to kill the occupant, amirite?

        https://www.dallasnews.com/news/courts/2022/03/30/court-upholds-conviction-sentence-of-amber-guyger-ex-dallas-officer-who-murdered-botham-jean/

        If you enter the wrong house, believing it is your house, you are either completely ‘under the influence’, or you actually have evil intent. How am I, as the LAWFUL occupant of the property, supposed to discern your intent? You entered my property, without my permission. Why?? I don’t know, and there is no SAFE way that I can discern that. They are obviously ‘under the influence’? Yeah, because tweaked-up tweakers NEVER break into houses to steal shit to get their next fix, amirite??

        Simple rule: If you enter a house/dwelling make sure it is yours, or you have consent to enter. Complicated only for Leftists and morons.

        2. True dat. IF you are ever forced to do a DGU, you should expect to be prosecuted for it.

        3. Assuming you are human. Anyone who could pull the trigger, even on the most cut-and-dried DGU, and NOT feel remorse at the killing of another human, is a psychopath/sociopath, and I don’t need them in my life. If I ever had to actually pull the trigger, no matter HOW justified I thought my decision was, I would live forever with the painful thought that I had ended another human life. OTOH, as the shooter used to say to the judge, in the Old West, when asked why they shot, “Judge, he needed killin’.” You break into my house and try to steal my shit, attack me, rape my wife or daughters, you’re going to die. You made that stupid decision, not me. IF you survive, I’ll probably regret the incident more than you will (well, maybe not in the rape example; in that case, my first shot goes in your twig and berries).

        • Anyone who could pull the trigger, even on the most cut-and-dried DGU, and NOT feel remorse at the killing of another human, is a psychopath/sociopath,

          Not entirely accurate, There are those among us who have participated in lengthy events (some called wars, some called “police actions”) which required the killing of another person in defense of their own lives and, after numerous encounters over several years, that has a tendency to desensitize a person. Some have arrived at a point where only total destruction of a threat is acceptable and “remorse” is not a consideration. My suggestion? If you don’t know who or what you are dealing with don’t fuck with it, that way your survival is most likely assured… I’d feel worse about accidentally killing a dog or a cat than I would about ending someone stupid enough to attack me… Psychopath/sociopath or just a “realist/survivor”?

      • MAXX,

        Fair comment, and if you feel I insulted you, I apologize. I have a couple of very close friends who have done bad shit, in worse places, and stacked bodies. Both of them say the same thing, “If you get to the point where it doesn’t bother you, you need to check yourself. Getting over it is one thing, not caring is a completely different result.” That’s what I was operating on the basis of. I can tell you, for certain, that if I ever had to pull the trigger, no matter HOW justified I thought I was, it would be with me forever. Ending another human life is a fraught decision, no matter how you parse it. If I couldn’t “justify” the shooting in my own mind, I never would have had the damn gun in my hand in the first place. Doesn’t mean I wouldn’t regret the act.

        If you participated in activities that got you to that point? My friend, thank you for your service, I wish you all the best, and may God have mercy on your soul. Knowing you are dispatching an evil person, who “needs killin'” is NOT the same thing as not being aware that you just ended another human life. I’m sure it’s different on the actual battlefield, and I don’t ever want to find out the hard way. But I am also a major believer in “play stupid games; win stupid prizes”. I just, personally, would never want to do that without remorse.

        • I did participate in such activities in the late 60s early 70s and I am not insulted, many might even agree with you that people like me are “psychotic”, although those in my world are glad to have me where I am because they know I will not hesitate to use deadly force if the need arises… It took me a long time to come to terms with “things”, I reserve my trust to a very few, keep my circle of acquaintances small, and avoid crowded areas always sitting with my back to the wall… I don’t walk around looking for someone to kill, and I honestly hope I never have to do it again, but I can and I will if some dumbass makes the mistake of putting me in a position where I must defend my life or the life of a loved one… Psychopath and Sociopath are two separate types of the same breed of animal, I like to believe that I am simply “detached” from what most people would consider the norm emotionally (that’s what my shrink says)…

          “not caring is a completely different result”… If an individual does not care enough about YOUR life or their own, why should you bear the responsibility of guilt for putting some asshole out of his misery, if you can justify it you can move on from it… Some “humans” are closer to the animal in ALL of us than most…

          A psychopath is completely indifferent to people who are suffering even when it’s a close friend or family member. (that’s not me)

          A Sociopath is someone who is apparently totally without conscience, hateful, or hate-worthy. (nope)

    • LifeSavor,

      Yes, and . . . no.

      OF COURSE, any rational person would think through situations where they might be called upon to use deadly force, and how they would/should react, before they arm themselves.

      One part of that proposition is impossible to test short of the actual thing happening – when/if the time comes, can you actually pull the trigger? I’ve convinced myself I can, and will, but thank GOD I’ve never had to. So I still don’t know . . . and like you, I hope I never find out.

      Thinking about a scenario and how you would react does not equal knowing how you would react. And using deadly force against another human is a fraught decision, even when you’re convinced you are right.

      But, yeah, if you haven’t bothered to consider that in advance of the fact, but still choose to equip yourself, that’s kinda stupid.

  7. No the law is fine as written. But tell that to the guy with a gun and Fear & Anger. No, he lets the FEELZ decide to when to stand your ground.

    • “No, he lets the FEELZ decide to when to stand your ground.”

      And if you had bothered to actually read the article, as I had suggested earlier, you would know that you’re lying. Again.

      Since you didn’t read it, here’s the salient point:

      “I fear that equating SYG with the legal right to “shoot first” could unintentionally mislead people into thinking that self-defense laws truly give them a blanket license to kill with impunity.

      “They do not.

      “Self-defense laws actually place significant limits on the ability of individuals to use lethal force in self-defense lawfully.

      • You didn’t bother to read my comment: (Hint, the first sentence)

        No the law is fine as written. But tell that to the guy with a gun and Fear & Anger. No, he lets the FEELZ decide to when to stand your ground.

        The guy with gun and the FEELZ isn’t thinking about the law when he pulls the trigger, but he is FEELING.

        Now training can let someone master Fear & Rage and think rationally, but then that would be reasonable.

        • Idiot,

          How many of these shooters have been let off, or given a pass, as of now? One for certain is under arrest, and unlikely to skate, because he was a convicted felon, had pending charges against him, and still had a gun. No part of “Castle doctrine” OR “stand your ground” is going to get his ass off.

          When all charges against any of the others are dismissed or nol prossed, get back to me, idiot.

    • “No, he lets the FEELZ decide to when to stand your ground.”

      Such an *angry* little troll!

      No surprise, that’s a common response from someone with sub-standard genitalia dangling beneath his skinny, non-exercised legs.

      When you look in the mirror, does what you see revolt you? Because it should, to a loser like little ‘4 times’.

      What a clown you are! 😉 🤡

      • Geoff, he’s not a very good troll. He needs more practice; that’s what his rantings have been so far.

      • Your argument in support of SYG laws is to talk about his dick? What’s your fascination with other guy’s cocks?

        • “What’s your fascination with other guy’s cocks?“

          Yes, many of these folks seem to always reach first for a same-sex insult.

          I wonder what’s behind that?

          It’s like they say the first thing that pops into their mind, weird.

        • Get a room and MajorLiar,

          No, we’re not obsessed with cocks – we just have them, and know what they are used for. Differentiates us from Leftist/fascist wanna-be men.

      • Lyrics :

        “I think it’s crazy I’m the one who they labelled as controversial
        And Cardi B is the role model for 12-year-old girls
        There’s rappers pushing Xanax at the top of the Billboard
        But if I mention race in a song, I’m scared I’ll get killed for it
        It’s backwards, it’s getting exponentially dumb
        It’s more difficult to get a job than purchase a gun
        Eminem used to gay bash and murder his mom
        And now he doesn’t want fans if they voted for Trump
        We’re ashamed to be American, you should probably love it
        ‘Cause you have the right to say it and not get strung up in public
        As children, we were taught how to walk and talk
        But the system wants adults to sit down and shut up
        Cancel culture runs the world now, the planet went crazy
        Label everything we say as homophobic or racist
        If you’re white, then you’re privileged, guilty by association
        All our childhood heroes got Me-Too’d or they’re rapists
        They never freed the slaves, they realized that they don’t need the chains
        They gave us tiny screens, we think we’re free ’cause we can’t see the cage
        They knew that race war would be the game they need to play
        For people to pick teams, they use the media to feed the flame
        They so fake woke, facts don’t care ’bout feelings
        They know they won’t tell me what to believe in
        They so fake woke, same old safe zones
        They so fake woke, facts don’t care ’bout your feelings
        I think it’s crazy all these people screaming facts, but they fake woke
        Hate their neighbour ’cause he wears a mask or he stays home
        Has a daughter, but his favourite artist said he slays hoes
        Picks her up from school, music slaps on the way home
        Censorship’s an issue ’cause they choose what they erase
        There’s a difference between hate speech and speech that you hate
        I think Black Lives Matter was the stupidest name
        When the system’s screwing everyone exactly the same
        I just wanna spend Thanksgiving Day with food and my family
        Without being accused of celebrating native casualties
        We got so divided, it’s black and white and political
        Republicans are bigots, libtards if you’re liberal
        There’s riots in our streets, and it’s just getting worse
        Y’all screaming, “Defund the police”, y’all are genius for sure
        They’re underfunded already, they’re way too busy to work
        Order food and call the cops, see what reaches you first
        Segregation ended, that’s a lie in itself
        That was a strategy to make us think they were trying to help
        They knew that racism was hot if they designed it to sell
        We buy up every single box and divide us ourselves
        They so fake woke, facts don’t care ’bout feelings
        They know they won’t tell me what to believe in
        They so fake woke, same old safe zones
        They so fake woke, facts don’t care ’bout your feelings
        We use violence to get peace and wonder why it isn’t working
        That’s like sleeping with a football team to try and be a virgin
        Politicians are for sale, and someone always makes the purchase
        But you and I cannot afford it, our democracy is worthless
        If a man has mental illness, call him crazy, say it silently
        When country’s going crazy, we accept it as society
        Get sick and take a pill when the side effects get you high
        You get addicted like these rappers dying fighting with sobriety
        Censoring the facts turns our children into idiots
        They claim it’s for our safety, I’ll tell you what it really is
        Removing information that empowers all the citizens
        The truth doesn’t damage points of view that are legitimate
        They’re tryna change amen to a-men and women
        How’d we let ’em make praying a microaggression?
        Instead of asking God for the strength to keep winning
        We cheat to get ahead, and then we ask Him for forgiveness
        Feminism used to be the most righteous of fights
        But these days, it feels like they secretly hate guys
        I don’t trust anyone who bleeds for a week and don’t die
        I’m just kidding, but everything else that I said is right
        They so fake woke, facts don’t care ’bout feelings
        They know they won’t tell me what to believe in
        They so fake woke, same old safe zones
        They so fake woke, facts don’t care ’bout your feelings
        Source: Musixmatch
        Songwriters: Thomas Macdonald / Nova Paholek”

        • “I don’t trust anyone who bleeds for a week and don’t die
          I’m just kidding“

          And you wonder why good women will have nothing to do with you.

          Thanks for sharing your Incel manifesto, when have you planned your ‘revenge’ against all of those smart, attractive women who ignore your juvenile come-on lines and macho posturing?

        • Oh there’s much more bullshit and intentionally deceptive statements.

          “How’d we let ’em make praying a microaggression?“

          No one is claiming prayer is a micro aggression, contrary to the Christian’s’ claim, no one has banned prayer.

        • So now Liar49er is cherry-picking music lyrics and trying to attribute them to the posters here who linked to them.

          Now that’s sad.

        • Damn SAFE!
          I hope this guy is successful because I can’t see him in a 9 to 5. I most likely wouldn’t agree with his political views but he does stir the pot and he is scary spot on with some of his points.

        • One of my student interns brought him to my attention a few years ago and at the least he is fun to listen to and apparently quite popular with the kids. For the most conspiracy theories in under 4 minutes I still have to give it to one from around where I grew up.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tR0nciT_2I

  8. Any law can be abused and stand your ground laws are no exception.
    However, if bad guys were not where they are not supposed to be,
    then they would not suffer the consequences.

    • I’m not aware of any cases in which SYG has been abused.

      In many cases, including the Zimmerman incident, SYG isn’t even claimed as a defense.

      So far, Andrew Lester’s defense hasn’t invoked SYG.

      • no name,

        Spoken like someone who actually UNDERSTANDS what “stand your ground” actually means, and how it is actually employed, in the real world. How DARE you!!!!!

        The Leftist/fascists don’t want an actual, rational debate, because they know that they will lose. Their approach is to refuse to confront any position of the right-of-center, but simply demonize it. Actual argument would shine a spotlight on the hollowness of their ‘arguments’.

        • Lamp, I “went to school” on SYG during the Zimmerman trial here in FL. Sanford is about 2 hours south of me. I applied for my CWP after the trial finished.

          Aside: Kyle Rittenhouse wasn’t able to invoke SYG because WI has no SYG law.

        • no name,

          Nor did Kyle need to, obviously, because he reasonably felt in fear of his own life. And if anyone is going to argue that the scumbags he offed or wounded WEREN’T prepared to inflict potentially lethal violence on him, they are liars or deluded partisans (but embrace the healing power of “and”). Still SYG does what it was intended to do; it legislatively ‘negatives’ the insane “duty to retreat” doctrine. But all the hyperbole over the “evils of ‘stand your ground'” is just Leftist/fascist BS – it is a relatively rarely invoked defense, NOT always successful, even when applicable, it is subject to numerous limitations. All it really does is get rid of the “duty to retreat” idiocy.

          “Nothing justifies a defensive shooting” is the kind of nonsense only a Leftist/fascist could spout. “No property is worth another person’s life”? Seems like the wanna-be perp made that decision himself, when he CHOSE to break into my house/jack my car/mug me for my money. “Play stupid games; win stupid prizes.”

      • There actually is no such thing as a “Stand Your Ground” defense. It is just an aspect of the justified use of force, imposed by statute or caselaw, almost exclusively relating to deadly force. That is, a duty to attempt a safe retreat which is knowable, or the privilege of no duty to do that, prior to using force.

        • Oh my God!! Someone who actually understands “stand my ground”!!

          Good on you, sir, you accurately apprehend the actual intention of the doctrine. And there are rational reasons NOT to retreat in the face of a serious threat – a “fighting retreat”, without backup, is impossible, and just ask Rudyard Kipling what happens to people who flee in panic. Turning your back on an aggressor is the kind of idiocy only a Leftist could embrace.

      • While it was not used by the defense, it was included in the “instructions to the jury”… I lived in Sanford for several years, now live about 20 minutes north of there…

        If George Zimmerman was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any place where he had a right to be, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he reasonably believed that it was necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony. (actual jury instructions)…

    • Hush,

      I support Castle Doctrine and Stand-Your-Ground laws 1,000% in violent attack situations.

      What is concerning is that some people interpret those laws to give them legal cover to actually be the attacker themselves rather than righteous defenders. Or people apply those laws in situations which satisfy the letter of the law while actually violating the spirit of the law.

      For example there are limited situations where a “home invader” is not truly a home invader in terms of the spirit of the law. Case in point, when I was in 5th grade, my classmate’s father took him and I to an observatory one night to see some planets in the observatory’s telescope. Since it was a rinky-dink observatory, amid a bunch of homes, with virtually non-existent signage, and no outside lighting to maximize telescope viewing–we unintentionally walked into someone’s home mistakenly thinking it was the observatory. According to the letter of the law, Castle Doctrine justified that homeowner immediately applying deadly force to us, which of course would have been a giant tragedy. (Fortunately we quickly realized our error, the homeowner was very gracious about it, and we exited immediately.)

      Of course the solution to all of this is simple education and human decency. Whether or not we can somehow facilitate that education and human decency, though, is an open debate.

      • In Illinois for Castle doctrine to apply, the intruder must violently enter. As for me, I will wait until I am sure of evil intent before I shoot.

      • I am always suspicious of any news presented portrayal of events as facts can be and often are omitted. Only just starting to hear the driveway shooting up my way involved 3 cars pulling into the guys driveway. Doesn’t change it’s likely being a bad shoot but odd it didn’t make the news while a quick 12 gauge shotguns are only useful for big game hunting and not useful for home defense did. For reference 12 gauge is about the best option for NY home defense if you don’t have one of our pistol or semi auto rifle permits.

      • uncommon,

        Yes, idiots can ‘misinterpret’ the Castle Doctrine, or the “stand your ground’ laws. Just like basic safety and competence training are incumbent on rational gun owners, knowledge of the local laws in re: self-defense are incumbent on any responsible gun owner. But we all know that people don’t always do what is rational (which is why socialism/communism keeps rearing its ugly head). If we had a rational approach to self-defense, neither would be needed. It boils down to a simple question, “Were you reasonably in fear of your life or serious injury?”

        Since a quarter of all ARRESTED burglars were packin’ heat (https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/ascii/vdhb.txt#:~:text=Offenders%20were%20armed%20with%20a,violence%20occurred%20(table%2019) – and how many had knives, clubs, screwdrivers, tire irons, etc.?), I choose not to have to guess about their motive. They are present in MY house, without my consent, where my wife and two daughters live. I will evaluate the situation before shooting, and I MAY choose to try to scare them off before shooting (at a risk to myself, if you know anything about tactical doctrine), but that is my choice, based on my evaluation IN REAL TIME of the threat environment.

        You break into my house, try to jack my car, or aggressively confront me on the street, I SHOULD be entitled to assume bad motives, because that is a RATIONAL assumption. Tweakers steal to support their addiction, and they often steal WHILE they are tweaked. Random criminals often indulge in the modern version of ‘Dutch courage’ before engaging in their nefarious activities. A stumbling, stoned-out tweaker, alcoholic, pothead, or heroin addict MIGHT have ‘accidentally’ entered my house – a thin premise, at best, but how am I to know, without endangering my own life. And if you get your sorry, stoned-out @$$ shot because you ‘accidentally’ walked into the wrong house, who’s fault is that?

        Don’t go into a house that isn’t yours without consent. Pretty easy rule, for anyone other than a Leftist or a moron (ah, but I repeat myself).

  10. one of the nice things
    about 2017-present
    is that weve learned
    that we dont have to fact check anything
    that any democrat ever says
    we just know its a lie
    because all they do is lie
    even about stuff
    that they dont have to lie about

      • They lie to us, we know they’re lying, they know we know they’re lying, but they keep lying to us, and we keep pretending to believe them.

  12. “Stand you ground” only means you have no duty to retreat when in a legal place, it is not a license to kill. It used to be some states required you to retreat before you used deadly force. The sitting guy in the Florida parking lot who shot the guy in the back after the confrontation stopped went to jail, even though there was a disparity of force. The guy in KC is in deep doodoo IMO. Do not open the door without verifying who is there. If you do open it, don’t display a gun, it could be the police at the wrong address. If you cannot identify, call 911.

      • no name,

        Knew that CA was one of those, didn’t have a list of the others. Thank you for that; I now have a list of states I will NEVER visit.

    • What helps understand their opposition to the law. You being able to fight back and not be a victim is a tragedy that should never be allowed as it harms someone they like better than you. You being protected from frivolous lawsuits and/or prosecution is like the previous statement but orders of magnitude worse.

    • “The sitting guy in the Florida parking lot who shot the guy in the back after the confrontation stopped went to jail, even though there was a disparity of force.”

      Jail?

      He’s doing 20 years hard time in Florida State Prison for murdering him…

      • IMO, the jury decided he shot late, because he did not want to miss his chance to shoot somebody. The state presented evidence that that was his mindset.

        I think they got that one right.

        I like SYG a lot, and think it essential, remembering the day when an aggressor could shoot at you, and miss; but you could still sit in jail for 6 months, then be sued by survivors.

        That said, it should be called MYOB, not SYG.

        My motto – learn the law, then buy a gun. And mind your own business.

  13. I was involved in a defensive shooting years ago. Which is a major reason I recommend CCW insurance coverage as has been promoted on this board etc.
    Cost a small fortune to prove innocence. Cost the deceased perps family nothing to bring a suit. As well as cost the state money to arrest me, run me through to process, charge me with manslaughter, bring it to court only to finally have a jury decide I was the victim and not the aggressor. Found not guilty in criminal court. Civil suit dismissed. Then had to reapply and go through the hassle of getting my business licenses and FFL restored.
    And that was with a good attorney.
    SYG laws do not allow for shoot first etc. Nor does a castle doctrine. Nor do either do much to protect a righteous defender from an ambitious or Leftist/Progressive DA.

      • XZX,

        In some states, perhaps, but in general all it does is entitle you to a presumption that your action was not criminal. Since the standards of proof are entirely different, a finding that you were not guilty of manslaughter (beyond a reasonable doubt), is NOT the same as a finding that you weren’t negligent/unjustified in a subsequent civil action (preponderance of the evidence). There may be some states that have adopted laws to that effect (and good on them!), but that is not an automatic result of being found to have justly relied on SYG as a defense.

  14. If all the gunm owners were as kill crazy as the anti gunms think we are there would not be any anti gunmers left.
    I’ve no idea about the rest of the world but yanking my gunm out is a last resort and it would have to be a real sht mess before that happened too.

  15. From what I understand, SYG is little more than a recognition that NO ONE has a “duty to retreat”. Whether I’m at home, in my vehicle, on a public street, or a place of business, if someone attacks me, I have no obligation to run away from the fool attacking me.

    Moreso, in view of the fact that I can’t run anymore. Few people could catch me in my first 40 years. More people could catch me in the next ten years. Today – your crippled grandmother could probably catch me if she put her mind to it.

    No reasonable law requires me to try to run away from an assailant. That is just like the old adage about the cops are only minutes away.

    • Immunity from civil suit is a key component of adequate self defense law (read SYG).

      That is one reason it is generally hated by lawyers.

  17. “Instead, in the interest of public safety, why not educate people on the limited range of behaviors they in fact allow? …”

    Yes, absolutely.

    SYG is rarely factually and legally applicable; its invocation is the Ponzi scheme of the misinformed, liberals and gun haters.

    • “Records show that since the Stand Your Ground law was implemented, there have been 64 cases filed in Duval County in which defendants charged with felonies claimed self-defense and requested a Stand Your Ground hearing. Of those hearings, judges granted dismissals in just four. Eight defendants – twice as many – were acquitted after a trial. The other 52 reached plea deals, were convicted by juries, were committed to mental institutions or are still awaiting trial.“

      https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/crime/2015/11/22/stand-your-ground-law-not-working-intended-despite-changing-self-defense/15689407007/

      • Wow, MajorLiar, you actually understood why the rest of us aren’t all verklempt about ‘stand your ground’ – because it has to be asserted, and DEFENDED BY EVIDENCE, in a fact-finding hearing or trial. And those who improperly assert the defense tend to lose their cases. GIANT revelation, which is news only to Leftist/fascist gun-grabbers. The rest of us knew that shit from the git-go. Welcome to the real world; enjoy it while you visit.

      • I suspect I am familiar with most of those incidents. There is no such thing as a “Stand Your Ground hearing.” The pretrial hearing is for “self-defense immunity.” The statistics you cite prove my point.

        Duty to retreat (Stand Your Ground) is rarely the controlling legal issue in an immunity hearing. Or like in the case against George Zimmerman, ability to retreat is not in dispute as a matter of fact.

      • “2015/11/22”

        Just think how those figures have changed in the eight years since 2015.

        But here’s the major point of the article pointing out why SYG in FL was not working as intended:

        One of the four defendants whose charges were dismissed after Stand Your Ground hearings was Leonard Dillard, accused in the stabbing of Albert Camp outside a Main Street sports bar. Dillard was arrested in December 2011, but his Stand Your Ground claim wasn’t granted until September 2014. Circuit Judge Adrian G. Soud presided. “He looked right at me and said, ‘Mr. Dillard, this case is dismissed.’ I thought I could breathe again for the first time since I’d been arrested.”

        Over those 33 months, Dillard said he lost his job, broke up with his girlfriend and struggled to keep custody of his children. “With the way it went down, I felt like everyone was looking at me like I’d done something wrong.”

      • You proved my point after all… Apology accepted, I almost did that for you because you called me a liar but decided against it after deciding you are just not worthy of the extra effort… Just a couple of REAL examples…

        A Florida appeals court is denying a Jacksonville man’s legal appeals to invoke the controversial “stand your ground” law over the death of his girlfriend, the latest case to define limits on claiming that a killing might be justified as self defense.

        in 2018 in the case of Markeis McGlockton, who was shot at a Clearwater convenience store where he and his son stopped to get snacks. The gunman claimed legal protections under the law but was subsequently convicted of manslaughter and sentenced to 20 years in prison. (that was a black man shot by a white man after the black man had knocked the white man to the ground and was shot in the back as he walked away)…

      • The issue is not how many successful SYG defenses have occurred.

        The issue is the perception many people have that SYG gives them a license to commit manslaughter/murder without consequence.

        “there have been 64 cases filed in Duval County in which defendants charged with felonies claimed self-defense and requested a Stand Your Ground hearing“

        • “The issue is the perception many people have that SYG gives them a license to commit manslaughter/murder without consequence.”

          How many people have that perception? You have sources to cite? Who was it that said “That which is asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence?”

          No — again, you missed the point of the source that you linked (pro tip: it helps to read the article to see if it supports your argument).

          The Stand Your Ground law was designed to help people like Dillard make their self-defense claims quickly and – if the claims were valid – allow them to get in and out of the system quickly and avoid the legal fees and other challenges faced by each felony criminal defendant. The Duval County numbers suggest that hasn’t happened.

          “there have been 64 cases filed in Duval County in which defendants charged with felonies claimed self-defense and requested a Stand Your Ground hearing“

          So? Smart money says that most of those defendants had no idea of how the SYG rules affect their cases until they were advised by their attorneys. Most people aren’t experts in self-defense law, regardless of what they’ve heard on the news.

          And, as the article stated, SYG is not being asserted as a defense in many cases where it actually applies:

          Fourth Judicial Circuit Public Defender Matt Shirk, a Stand Your Ground supporter, said his attorneys increasingly are reluctant to request Stand Your Ground hearings because they don’t think they can win even when they have strong cases.

  18. IMO, defendants such as Andrew Lester (and George Zimmerman) weren’t aware of, or familiar with, the SYG laws; they probably hadn’t heard of SYG until the attorneys began discussing legal strategies with their clients.

    The 2015 Jacksonville.com story linked above also has a discussion on how attorneys are now advising their clients to take a jury trial rather than assert a SYG defense:

    Fourth Judicial Circuit Public Defender Matt Shirk, a Stand Your Ground supporter, said his attorneys increasingly are reluctant to request Stand Your Ground hearings because they don’t think they can win even when they have strong cases.

    “I know our lawyers are making strategic decisions to put these cases in front of a jury,” he said.

    • Zimmermans claim of “self-defense” is what kept him from being arrested and charged immediately after the shooting…

      • True. The police who investigated the incident didn’t find any cause to arrest or detain Zimmerman and he was released. (The investigating officers did a good job of documenting Zimmerman’s injuries and walking through his explanation.) Only later, when our Duval County prosecutor got involved to score political points, Zimmerman was subjected to the court circus and dragged through proceedings that he should never have had to attend.

    • no name,

      Lets PLEASE not fall prey to the idiocy of the Leftist/fascists – the fact that SOME people misunderstand/misinterpret the “stand your ground” defense should not invalidate it for the rest of us. If you are a criminal, in the act of committing a crime, and I am in a place I am lawfully allowed to be, why should I be required to run away from you? Because Leftist/fascist idiots have a “feelz” about it is NOT a sufficient reason. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

      Don’t want to get shot? How about don’t assault anyone, try to mug them, try to jack their car, invade their house, etc.??? When you (the perp) made those decisions, KNOWING the potential consequences, you were playing the odds that the worst you could get is a few months in jail. Sorry, chump, you guessed wrong. Next life, try to make better decisions.

      • Lamp, well said and I agree, making that point to Liar49er above. It’s a variation on the same argument that, just because criminals use firearms illegally, law-abiding citizens shouldn’t be penalized for the actions.

        Of course, SYG laws are under attack by the Left because they don’t believe in the inherent right of self-defense. Denial of natural laws leads to chaos.

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