When Congress defined the term “machine gun” in federal law, they thought it was pretty clear, and in most ways, it really is. If a single movement of the trigger produces only one shot, it’s not a machine gun. If you can pull the trigger back and the gun continues firing, it’s generally a machine gun. Pretty simple, right?
This distinction is important because a semi-auto weapon (assuming it’s not an SBR or other NFA item) isn’t heavily regulated at the federal level—no tax stamp, no need to get approval to transfer or cross state lines, or any of that other stuff. More importantly, a semi-auto gun isn’t subject to the ban on new civilian machine guns that was passed in 1986.
But, lawyers always find ways to complicate things when they so desire. Anti-gun regulators and politicians want to stretch that definition to include things that aren’t machine guns, such as bump stocks, binary triggers, or even shoelaces and belt loops. Those things don’t change the fact that one trigger pull only shoots one round, but they do make the movement of the trigger happen faster.
But, outside of court, there’s an even dumber problem: The fact that there’s not much difference in the sound of machine guns compared to semi-autos that are firing really fast. At shooting ranges, it’s not uncommon for people shooting fast, using a binary trigger, or otherwise boosting the rate of fire to catch the attention of a Fudd who thinks they’re entitled to see your paperwork. Or worse, they call the cops (assuming that machine guns are illegal).
While such things can be sorted out at the range in most cases without causing life problems, a recent post on Reddit shows us that there’s a real danger involved with people who think they know the difference between fast semi-auto and machine gun fire:
“Just because something may or may not be legal, doesn’t mean others won’t try to screw your life over,” said the user, whose profile (but not posts) have since been deleted, showing images of a police car outside of his house. “There will be no more posts from me on this or any other sub. Best of luck to you all, stay safe.”
Further down, this clarification was given: “As someone pointed out I got no knocked. Came out of nowhere. Best guess is someone reported automatic fire from my material testing on SS, that or the fact I just found out my neighbor the next property over is DHS. So yeah I’m kinda fucked.”
Prior to deletion, links could be found showing that the guy was testing the Super Safety, a printable design that replaces the safety on an AR-pattern gun with a push-button system that allows safe, regular fire, or a mode where the trigger gets forced into reset by the bolt carrier group as it moves back forward into battery.
Here’s a video by the Super Safety’s creator explaining in detail how the system works:
One problem with the Super Safety design is that it’s not durable in its three-position form unless you work with a metal 3D printer (expensive!) or have one fabricated from metal by other means. Nylon designs can last for hundreds of rounds, but they eventually give out and stop working. Apparently the user was testing different, more durable 3D printing materials to see if he could come up with a more durable solution.
This, of course, required firing the gun a lot, and needing to drive out to the range kind of sucks. So, he was doing this in his basement using a clearing can of some kind. He thought the sound wasn’t getting out, but apparently at least one neighbor (one of whom works for DHS in a law enforcement capacity) heard what sounded like a machine gun and reported this to the authorities.
Even worse, the user says that police (and presumably BATFE) responded to the complaint with a “no-knock” raid. This means there’s no knock at the door, no warning and no other opportunities given to cooperate. For all you know, the police could be coming in or some criminals could be coming in, and you have no time to decide which it is as the door comes off its hinges.
These “no-knock” raids often have deadly consequences. Courts have ruled that you can reasonably act in self defense when police don’t adequately identify themselves, but that only helps if they don’t return fire and kill you on the spot. Sometimes, these killings happen without any provocation or lack of cooperation with the police.
Even when they don’t kill you, they can severely mess your life up. Damage to the home (which can be extreme, and possibly result in eviction if you’re renting), the neighbors seeing you treated like a criminal, mental health results and losing a job can all come from a no-knock raid, even when police go to the wrong address.
Really, the laws banning and heavily restricting machine guns are pointless and arbitrary when both citizens and cops can’t tell the difference between rapid semi-auto fire and machine gun fire. The lives lost to no-knock raids are likewise a bigger drain on society than any criminal justice gains. On top of all that, the NFA and the GCA don’t comply with the NYSRPA v. Bruen decision.
So, we’re seeing yet another reason these laws should be repealed or gutted by a court as soon as reasonably possible.
As long as the ideology that supports them is allowed to exist. They will exist. Regardless of any court decision or laws passed or repealed.
Never mind nuts and bolts when it’s Words That Matter. The two words that matter to democRats are Gun Control. And when they see the 1968 Gun Control Act they see nothing but a greenlight for them to do whatever they damn please to the Second Amendment.
The primary thing The Second Amendment has to fight back is The History of Gun Control. It was Justice Thomas who opened a pathway to expose the Historical race based laws inherent with Gun Control. In order to Abolish Gun Control America must know the History of Gun Control to see how Gun Control and its sidekicks Slavery, Lynching, etc. walked hand in hand throughout American History.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZFEz3Bt9hCw&feature=shared
Words only matter when the force of will is put behind them. Otherwise they are nothing more than white noise in the ears of tyrants and the tyranny they force on their subjects.
Probably not a good idea to shoot in your house. Especially if you know a DHS agent lives nearby. I know that’s not the point but…
Maybe the “gun community” can try for a change, and make a honest coherent and well articulated argument, for any device that moves a trigger faster than a human can pull it.
The problem is there is history of the “gun community” crapping, all over things like the bumpstock.
Yup.
Bumpstocks are silly toys so it’s okay to throw them under the bus to “save our rights”, binary triggers are an expensive gimmick that reduces accuracy, switches are for the ghetto and of course Grandpa Fudd wants to protect the value of registered machinegun so any attempt to alter the law must be fought.
A bunch of Romney Democrats.
26 U.S. Code § 5845 The term “machinegun” means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.
Not only does the super safety require an individual trigger pull for each shot, but it actually puts the firearm on safe between shots. The engineering is rather fascinating. Legally I think they have a leg up on other forced reset triggers due to that. Watch them in slow motion and you can see easier what I’m describing.
Also regarding throwing any bit of our rights away in order to ‘save our rights’ is counter-intuitive. Negotiating rights away has never helped, it’s just gotten us to where we are now, trying to claw back what we should already have via the legal system costing people their freedom and life savings. It doesn’t matter that they’re gimmicky, they still shouldn’t be given up.
>Negotiating rights away has never helped, it’s just gotten us to where we are now, trying to claw back what we should already have…
Here’s a lovely comic for you visual types. You may have seen it, but it describes the process pretty well.
https://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2013/11/08/cake-and-compromise-illustrated-guide-to-gun-control/
Not so fast Justin…As far as bump stocks POTUS DJT folliwing Vegas was caught between a rock and a hard spot so it was either throw bumpstocks under the bus by an EO which can be and was challenged or let congress take the wheel and risk saying adios to all sorts of stuff including binary triggers that at the time were advertised on this site. What you would have done?
TRUMP 2024.
Trump made it an issue the amount of excuses you make for that guy gets very old. Trump will get all semi autos banned with the stupidity over bump stocks as now all semi auto firearms are machine guns by changing the stock. You will not only cheer this on but vote for the guy again. Simply unbelievable. Trump is extremely dangerous when it comes to gun rights because he only cares about one thing – remaining in power. If you can’t see that you are blind.
“he only cares about one thing – remaining in power. If you can’t see that you are blind.”
If you believe that, you are stupid. But you do you.
@Debbie W.
I disagree if congress at the time after the Vegas shooting tried to pass any gun control legislation all Trump needed do was veto it even if Congress somehow overridden his veto Trump wouldn’t be responsible. He didn’t have to do anything but veto.
“A Human”. Can we choose the human? Yes, the gun community consists of Elmers – always will. You aren’t going to change their minds. Heck, most Elmers would be ok with magazine restrictions, because their bolt action hunting rifle, or trap shotgun don’t need magazines.
Nope, the real question is why are MGs, SBRs, SBSs, Suppressors, heck, the entire NFA, not deemed an unconstitutional infringement for law abiding citizens.
The truth is that items such as the Atkins Accelerator, Bump Stock, Binary Trigger, and Super Safety are all innovations that were created as a direct result of the NFA and Hughes Amendment. Period. If these items are used lawfully, the correct question is “why should the Government care?”. Furthermore, given Heller, McDonald, Bruen (and Miller), NFA shouldn’t exist.
Outlaw belt loops and rubber bands. Those are “weapons of war.”
The chances of the NFA being repealed is “absolute zero”.
No one in the right mind, even the crazed Trump Appointed Supreme Court, wants Maga Maggot revolutionaries running around with full auto weapons trying to overthrow the government and create a Trump dictatorship, their assault rifles are already bad enough.
And I might add few Gun Control Acts are ever repealed either. Modified sometimes slightly, but they almost never go away completely, i.e. like the 68 GCA, and the Brady Bill background checks for new gun sales.
Dacian,
Never say never…
In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a “shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length” at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment, or that its use could contribute to the common defense. Aymette v. State, 2 Humphreys (Tenn.) 154, 158.
United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939)
This is the proverbial writing on the wall for the entire NFA et. Seq. in a post NYSPRA v. Bruen world. It is quite surprising that this logical challenge to the NFA, based upon this ruling, has never been brought forth by some young industrious barrister. Enter the post Bruen era, likely to put an end to ridiculous laws restricting weapon types and magazine sizes, and the common-sense overarching challenge to the NFA seems inevitable. A win against the NFA restrictions of machine guns, short barrel rifles, and suppressors would usurp and pre-emptively overrule these individual states’ unconstitutional laws clearly flying the finger at SCOTUS.
You just make this stuff as you go along.
hush, rapist
Every single state already has hundreds of thousands of full auto weapons dipshit. They’re also far less accurate without a huge commitment to training and the price of ammo prevents lots of that. It also doesn’t matter, we can print whatever the fuck we want, dacian! You nor your jackbooted thugs can do a single thing about that…
If the USSC rules in favor of Garland in the Garland v Cargill bumpstock case, the next thing they will go after is scopes that are used by military snipers to kill people up to 2 miles away, and NVG’s/Thermals are used at night to kill people. No civilian needs this kind of lethal technology to hunt deer. We’ll only be allowed to have factory iron sights. Red dots, lasers, or anything similar will be banned and that includes picatinny rails, M-lock, or other attachment points on your permissible single shot muzzle loader that you’ve registered with the ATF. It’s for the greater good.
Golly whut if yer Jerry Michulek & you got an electric finger?!? “You’re too fast Jerry!” Honestly if I had an AFT goon(Bidumb speak) living next door I wouldn’t shoot in my home🙄😧
And no fair wiring back the trigger on your SA sixgun, or putting a trigger pusher on your lever gun. 😉
One of the reasons I would like to see the NFA and the rest of these restrictions rescinded/removed is the militia clause of the 2ndA. If people are expected to show up with their own weapons and equipment, should they not have comparable tools, weapons and equipment as the regular military and be familiar with current military issue weapons and equipment? Should the militia not have arms that can be resupplied from regular military stores?
Second issue is who is the militia. Certainly not the NG or reserves. Consider the militia is traditionally more or less local groups with basic training who act as an adjunct and supplement too the regular military. Not as round out or reserve units of the regulars. And militia can and do act within their local community in non military emergencies. Search and rescue, disaster relief, etc.
Lastly, the second clause states the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Aren’t the tax stamps, and regulations or limits upon machineguns or silencers an infringement upon that right?
Should you have to be a property owner as first proposed to have a right to vote? Would people today allow that infringement on that right?
What you’ve described is precisely how the Mississippi Militia is organized and fielded. Solely under the control of the Governor per our State Constitution and Statutes.
Civilians do not have enough ammunition to support automatic weapons for any meaningful amount of time. They are most useful in fire and maneuver for groups of guys who have huge logistical trains behind them and you won’t. So just make each round count? By yourself you need just one more round than you can carry on your body to fire before you die…up to you what number that is and what you shoot with.
A soldier asked: What should I take to Ukraine? Said single shot BMG so you can shoot from a distance and won’t be tempted to fire more than once from any one place…good advice with optic detectors and tank guns on their side.
” At shooting ranges, it’s not uncommon for people shooting fast, using a binary trigger, or otherwise boosting the rate of fire to catch the attention of a Fudd who thinks they’re entitled to see your paperwork. Or worse, they call the cops (assuming that machine guns are illegal).”
Had that happen once, but not a Fudd. No machine gun, no binary trigger or otherwise boosting the rate of fire. Just a regular commercially available drop in trigger with a 4 lb pull, and rapid fire by finger pull for each shot. Guy comes over from the other end of the range, said I was using a machine gun and actually said “Show me your tax stamp or I’m calling the police.”
I told him I wasn’t and would not show him anything. But there is something about this guy that’s not right, he isn’t firing a gun at his range spot or at least I had not seen him do so yet but he had been hanging around over there for a good 30 minutes. Had a thought he might be a ‘new member’. Its ‘free fire time’ on the range, we are our own RSO’s for right now, so I put a phone call into store/office to inquire about this new guy and they said they will check it out.
New guy has gone back to his range spot and I see him on his phone. I resumed firing and again he comes running over and says “I caught you with a machine gun. That’s illegal. I called the police.” I said, sarcastically, “If I were such a criminal with a loaded machine gun, you should have enough common sense to have not come back over here to tell me you called the police.” – he kinda gave me this sort of ‘deer caught in the headlights’ look for several seconds then ran back to his range spot, grabbed his stuff, and ran, not walked, to the parking area fence exit just as the police roll up.
The other guys heard this and are laughing. But we also talk about how this guy had not been firing a gun, and in fact none of us had actually seen him having a gun, just a backpack that we thought might maybe possibly be his range bag and maybe a pistol and stuff was inside the back pack, and hes just an ass.
I see him gesturing towards the range where I am and can hear he is screaming at the police to do something but can’t make out exactly what he’s saying. All of us on the range at the time, including the two off duty police officers and one local field office ATF agent taking some vacation time, knew each other and we all shot there regularly and were members. No one knew this guy who we thought at the time maybe was a new member (turns out he wasn’t). We are all standing around watching this new guy all irate and screaming.
The officers come walking over, and ask point blank “You have an illegal machine gun?” I said “Nope.” They said “He’s saying you have an illegal machine gun.” I ask how he thought I had an illegal machine gun. They say “He said he knows what machine guns sound like when they fire and you don’t have the paperwork for it.” (note: a person owning a machine gun is not illegal here if its legally owned.)
About this time the two off duty officers, who knew the responding officers, and the ATF agent walk over and assure them I do not have a machine gun. They leave, go back to the guy and evidently told him there was no machine gun because new guy is screaming again and is swinging his arms around pointing back to where I am on the range. But as he is swinging his arms around all excited he spins back towards the range pointing and gesturing and becomes off balance and stumbles into one of the officers landing a nice SMACK! on the officers face. New guy gets cuffed and hauled off.
Turns out new guy was not a member but had sneaked into the member range area from the smaller public area pistol range by hopping over the fence separating the two areas, just for the purpose of ‘catching’ someone with an illegal machine gun.
Ya see, the local ATF field office also ‘officially’ leased range time there for their own occasional use and occasionally they would fire a fully auto firearm AKA ‘machine gun’. If you happen to have been there at the time waiting for the ATF to finish up so you could get back on the range if you asked and they had ammo left the ATF guys would let you fire the machine guns (this was back before our local ATF office got an ass for their new boss). This gave rise to a thing among the local anti-gun of the time that some local gun owners owned illegal machine guns and would fire them at this range. The range its self though, outside of that ATF use did not allow fully auto fire or fully auto firearms on the ranges for staff or general public or members.
Usually the anti-gun of the time would hang around outside the range entrance sometimes taking pictures of the people who entered and departed, as an intimidation tactic. This guy was one of them, but he decided he was actually going to catch him one of these ‘illegal machine gun owners’.
That’s hilarious! Wish I’d have been there. 🙂
The “gun community” needs to be honest, if it’s even possible. Everyone is afraid currently of black teenagers with machine guns. That’s the truth.
And what’s also true is that these black teenagers are raised in single mother homes. Where the father was replaced by a welfare check.
It was @th eist gun owners and h 0m0 sexu @l gun owners, who disagree with the christians. When the christians said a father is necessary in the home. And now we have to arrest these undisciplined children with machine guns.
It was that precise fear that got the AWB passed in ’94.
The dems and reps always come together when it’s time to screw the rest of us which is why I’m very leery of this election year bipartisan border attention. When they work together the problem will persist as it always had and we’ll get fucked over somehow.
“Everyone is afraid currently of black teenagers with machine guns. That’s the truth.”
Speak for yourself, Chris.
I’m *aware* of ‘yoots’ with Glocks with switches, but I’m not in fear of them.
The NFA isn’t going anywhere, as Scalia pointed out in ‘Heller’ :
“(2) Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues.”
“Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons. Pp. 54–56.”…
and for whatever purpose
Therein lies the rub. In a Nation created as a bastion of Freedom and Independence, as long as the purpose is lawful, then 2A shall not be infringed.
Miller’s holding was that the Arm in question (a short-barrel shotgun) had to be demonstrably useful in connection with the Militia in order for it to be “lawful” for a citizen to possess without a tax stamp. By that very argument, MGs are absolutely commonly used by Militia, and therefore cannot be dangerous and unusual.
Lesson. If you’re going to test something to do with triggers on a self-loading rifle, only put 2-3 rounds into the magazine to limit any “runaway”.
The NFA and GCA must go. Also no-knock raids need to be ended in all but the most extreme circumstances and those need to be restricted to the most rare of occurrences when they are absolutely necessary and there is no other way. For that matter the police need to lose their qualified immunity as well as the folks who are signing the warrants for these no-knock raids. When they screw up and ruin lives then their own lives and careers should be ruined as well when they get tosses into criminal and civil court to pay for their grave mistakes.
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